Re: [Texascavers] Best padlocks for cave gates

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Thanks Jim!

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of Jim 
Kennedy via Texascavers
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 3:18 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Best padlocks for cave gates

 

Travis,

 

Having been involved with dozens (maybe hundreds) of cave gates around the 
country, I recommend brass Best locks. And stay away from any rubberized locks, 
they aren't any better and usually cost more. Lubricate with powdered graphite 
only, no oil or WD40 or such. And change out the locks periodically, especially 
in wet, muddy, or dusty situations.

 

Despite what what Mixon espouses, cave resources are definitely worth 
protecting, and arguably more valuable than my house and possessions. Those can 
be replaced. That's why the old NSS "Cave Gating" book and it's "weak link" 
philosophy of gating are obsolete. For a more up-to-date approach, check out 
the cave gate chapter in NSS' "Cave Conservation and Restoration" book. All 
this, of course, assumes a well-designed and constructed gate. A poor gate can 
have entirely the opposite effect, and cause more problems than it solves. 

 

All it takes is one jerk to ruin things forever. The Butterfly at Caverns of 
Sonora is a prime example. 

 

Jim

Mobile email from my iPhone


On Apr 4, 2016, at 8:58 AM, Travis Scott via Texascavers 
 wrote:

Folks,

I have recently been struggling with the padlocks on cave gates that have 
become corroded and basically unusable.  Even brand new padlocks that were 
placed on the gate and left for a few years are becoming unusable.  These gates 
are designed with an arm hole which allows you to reach the padlock hanging on 
the inside of a solid gate. Once the padlock is removed, a lever is moved and 
the gate opens. The problem is that the padlocks sit in the wet warm 
environment (sometimes years at a time) collecting dust, dirt and corrosion as 
air moves past due to the cave breathing. Several locks have recently taken 
over an hour to open whilst in the most uncomfortable positions, meanwhile with 
the fear that the key might break off in the lock or the lock will never open, 
etc..

I am wondering if anyone has had the experience or research to whittle down the 
best types of locks that can handle this environment and still continue to 
function properly. I have researched corrosion aspects of different tumblers 
(no real conclusion on which is best). Other cavers have told me that the locks 
with the rubber housing around the entire lock, including the key hole, are no 
better than a normal Masterlock for example. We have tried both the most 
expensive locks and the cheaper ones, but none seem to hold up.

Does anyone have any experience with this or have any light they can shed? 

 

Thank you so very much!!!

 

 

Travis Scott
tra...@oztotl.com
979.450.0103 (cell)

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[Texascavers] Best padlocks for cave gates - advice needed

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Folks,

I have recently been struggling with the padlocks on cave gates that have
become corroded and basically unusable.  Even brand new padlocks that were
placed on the gate and left for a few years are becoming unusable.  These
gates are designed with an arm hole which allows you to reach the padlock
hanging on the inside of a solid gate. Once the padlock is removed, a lever
is moved and the gate opens. The problem is that the padlocks sit in the wet
warm environment (sometimes years at a time) collecting dust, dirt and
corrosion as air moves past due to the cave breathing. Several locks have
recently taken over an hour to open whilst in the most uncomfortable
positions, meanwhile with the fear that the key might break off in the lock
or the lock will never open, etc..

I am wondering if anyone has had the experience or research to whittle down
the best types of locks that can handle this environment and still continue
to function properly. I have researched corrosion aspects of different
tumblers (no real conclusion on which is best). Other cavers have told me
that the locks with the rubber housing around the entire lock, including the
key hole, are no better than a normal Masterlock for example. We have tried
both the most expensive locks and the cheaper ones, but none seem to hold
up.

Does anyone have any experience with this or have any light they can shed? 

 

Thank you so very much!!!

 

 

Travis Scott
  tra...@oztotl.com
979.450.0103 (cell)

 

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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Well, with weazel's, narcissistic and condescending rhetoric behind us, I
have some perspective on these subjects as I have been very involved with
them (in Texas) for years.

 

I am not an advocate of hiding cave data or being secretive about cave
locations by any means.  However, in Texas, most caves are on private land
and in order to visit them, cavers are granted access (a huge privilege
actually) to someone's private property.   There have been many, many times
that access has been permanently lost (or lost for decades) due to
mishandling of the caver-owner relationship.  I just learned of another lost
access yesterday actually.  

 

A few examples I have seen repeat themselves since the Texas caving heyday
of the 60's.  1. A rancher grants access to a single caver who then manages
trips to the cave.  Then, someone else just goes to the cave on their own
because they feel empowered to do so since they have the location( and have
the attitudes we see in the last email).  Next thing you know, the owner has
lost trust in cavers and cave access is shut down forever.  2. There is not
a single cave-owner contact and the owner gets fed up with random people
asking to come visit his cave and simply decides he is done..  3. A mix of
the two examples above occurs but the cave's location is out in public so
people just trespass like crazy and this pisses off the owner.  So he not
only shuts out access, but he gates the cave too.  4. Or the cavers are just
simply rude, mean, or unappreciative of the privilege the owner has given
them of which the owners get very little in return for.

 

History has shown, repeatedly, that if a Texas cave owner doesn't want us to
share any info about our actions, it would be best advised to listen.  If
spreading the location of an easy accessible cave to the world would cause
grief to the owner, go against his wishes, there is a good chance access
will be lost.  It has shown that if we do not respect the owner, we will
lose access.  If we bombard him with trespassing, we will lose access, etc
etc. 

 

Unfortunately, we are stuck in this situation in Texas and therefore have to
follow some, dare I say, 'social norms', in order to pursue our caving
adventures.  That is simply how it is.  If this means not sharing some info,
that's how it goes.

 

I understand the frustration that some data is proprietary or kept quiet,
but for many properties around the state, including many of the absolute
BEST caves the state has to offer, cavers are forced to keep a level of
discreetness if any access is to be maintained.  That's just how it is.
Reckless idealism like was just expressed below does no good for our
situation in Texas.. 

 

The best way to get 'younger flesh involved' is to keep passing on the torch
to the younger generation and take them on these proprietary trips.  Guess
what, this is actually happening underground in Texas all the time.

 

 

Regarding the TSS.  The TSS is not a proprietary organization that will
hoard your data and never let it go just so the officers can go play in your
caves.  It is quite the opposite.  We don't spread all cave data around the
world haphazardly, rather it is a give and take relationship.  We collect
info so that the caver community can utilize it in our exploration efforts.
If anyone has any questions about specific caves or properties around the
state, just ask!  If the cave info happens to be one of the few proprietary
situations due to the owners wishes (or whatever the reason), then the TSS
is forced to respect that.  And honestly, that is a good thing!  

 

This  type of sentiment is actually making it harder to cave in Texas.  Greg
just stated that he is holding 25 file drawers of cave data from the TSS.
(Isn't that a form of secrecy in its own right?)  The TSS was created SOLELY
to collect this type of info into a database so that it can be utilized and
built upon by the caving community.  It is a repository for this type of
data specifically for the caving community.  We will even digitize the data,
clean it up, and bring it into a more accessible medium.  The data is also
then protected against things like fire or flood as well.  If we do not
share the data with the TSS or anyone else, then that info, that work, that
effort, is lost and someone of another generation will just have to do it
again if the opportunity ever presents itself.

 

 

Anyways, I felt obligated to respond to this because access to cave location
(and other info) it isn't always that black and white.  I have watched
access disappear far too many times, and have struggled to keep caver-owner
relationships in check for years as well.  I also responded because the TSS
was created for the reciprocal sharing of cave data to better our caving
community and I feel that a lot of people purposefully don't work with them
due to misunderstandings like these..  I don't know if that all came out
well or not, but I hope it at least helps quell some of the fears of sha

[Texascavers] Kiwi Sink is For Sale

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Howdy Cavers,

 

I just wanted to spread the word that Kiwi Sink in the Driftwood area has
come up for sale by owner.  It is on two acres off of Billie Brooks Lane in
Hays County (amongst the small caver community there).  The property has a
fairly large 4/2 mobile home, garage/barn and some other items.  Kiwi Sink
is a somewhat significant recharge feature that local cavers have excavated
over the years to approximately 102.3m long and 17.5m deep.  The owner hopes
that cavers can acquire it, but is putting it on the market and it will be
open to anyone.  He has verbally mentioned an asking price of $167,000 for
the property at this time.

 

If you or anyone you know might be interested in purchasing the property and
cave, please let me know and I will get you in touch with the owner.
Thanks!!

 

Travis Scott
  tra...@oztotl.com
979.450.0103 (cell)

 

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[Texascavers] TSS Online Data Submissions

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Howdy Texas Cavers,

As you hopefully know, the Texas Speleological Survey collects, 
organizes, and maintains information on Texas caves and karst, as well 
as provides that data back to cavers who are actively out there caving 
in the state.  We recently overhauled our website which you need to 
check out.  The new site also has a new and wonderful online submission 
tool for submitting data into our database.  Last weekend at TCR I 
talked with many folks who are actively finding, exploring, and 
surveying caves.  Some of this information has not been submitted to the 
database.  So I urge you to check out the new submission page and dig 
out your recent surveys and cave data!


We had our first submission on the new website this week and would like 
to thank Ben Hutchins for the submission!  He also offered comments and 
ideas on how we can improve it, so please feel free to do the same!  
Thanks again Ben!


Why should you submit data?  A quick story from this past week:  A land 
owner finds hole on his property, the land owner contacts cavers looking 
for information on the cave.  The caver requests data from TSS on caves 
near land owner (thanks Gregg!).  The caver shares this data with the 
land owner and verifies that the cave has been explored and documented 
already.  Caver provides the owner a map, cave description, and photos 
from TSS database.  This saves the caver a long trip to a small cave, 
and from having to remap and rephoto a previously mapped and 
photographed cave, and makes the land owner happy.  Now the caver has an 
open invitation to come caving any time.  This was made possible by a 
wonderful symbiotic relationship between the TSS and caving public, and 
by submitters like you!


So seriously folks, lets continue to share our data and improve caving 
across the state!


Main TSS Website:
http://texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/index.php

Data Submission Page
http://texasspeleologicalsurvey.org/data_submit/submit_data_page_1.php

*Travis Scott*
TSS, TCMA, TSA, NSS, Porcupine Grotto, Old-ASS

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[Texascavers] Movie Filming in Texas Caves, Technical Assistance Needed

[Travis Scott via Texascavers]

Cavers,

I have been approached by a friend who is a director for a local Austin 
film production company.  They are working on a new movie that is 
partially based in a cave.  They have permission to film in a cave in 
north Austin as well as in an on-trail portion of Sonora. They will be 
filming between the dates of August 26 and Sept 5th with their time 
split between locations.  He was asking for a caver or cavers to assist 
in filming at both locations.  I have already put out feelers to 
specific cavers for the filming in Sonora so they get first dibs, but 
the n. Austin work still needs a vertical caver's expertise for a day or so.


In Austin they will be simulating entering and exiting a vertical cave 
mostly using stunt doubles and cables, but they would like a caver there 
to help make sure they are using the gear correctly (and therefore it 
looks real) etc etc.  There is some possibility of training and actually 
helping them rappel and maybe providing SOME gear, but those details are 
a bit fuzzy at the moment.


In Sonora, they will be getting on rope and needing quality vertical 
caving guidance and assistance as well as filming the in-cave portions 
of their movie.  Sonora will take a few days to complete but there will 
only be one day of vertical work.  They would like a very confident 
vertical caver there the entire time to assist.


Please let me know if you are interested/able and I can get you in touch 
with the producer to work out the details.  There might be some small 
payment for the help, but mostly this is being requested as volunteer 
help.  Since this is rope work with novices, I am asking that only 
serious cavers with good vertical experience step up if your 
interested.  Between one and three cavers are needed, so if there is a 
lot of response, only a few will be able to help, just FYI.


Please contact me off-line if you are interested and able to assist and 
we can go from there.  Thank you!


Happy Caving!

*Travis Scott*
tra...@oztotl.com
979.450.0103 (cell)

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