Re: [SWR] Fwd: Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
I am loving the parody... Weird al watch out... If only you record it in a cave On May 13, 2014 11:23 PM, Carl Pagano pagan...@comcast.net wrote: A llitle levity (the best I could come up with at a late hour-early apologies for this) Roughly-best sung to a popular Beatles song only in the company of those you trust Someone hada cup o' tea, and they went into a cave, didn't clean their boots and a biologist began to rave, (didn't clean their boots cause the mud was in their eye (not a butter pie), YES! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES ACROSS THE SKY AY AY AY! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES WAY OUT IN SPA, A, A , ACE…. Not a bit o'scientific proof, and the paper had a goof -not a footnote on the page, no supporting documents, not a bit you'd think to wage, Europeans were to blame, and that is such a shame, YES SHAME… -SO- when it was found out a new debate began to rage, (footnote? HA!! who needs a footnote when you got hysteria?! )HYS-TER-I-A! NOW, when ya send an e mail, just to make it clear, a few supporting documents just to hold it dear, Be like Officer Friday on the Show DRAGNET, stick to the facts an' make it clear you bet, YOU BET! NO emotions allow'd Allowed, ALL TOGETHER NOW (please) Spores across the water, water, spores (MAYBE?) under y'r boots ya ya ya! SPORES way out in space, SPA ACE, SPORES, got on your face……. (I think there was some tambourine at this point) Respectfully, There is a message here though…… Just the facts, keep emotions to a minimum, and as has already been requested, supporting documents. Validity, and proper scientific process are important-DUH (sorry, couldn't resist). Extrapolation of data based on subjective, rather than objective data, is not valid, and never will be. As Peter Jones said Let the debate continue!! Carl Pagano…... Begin forwarded message: *From: *Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com *Subject: **Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas* *Date: *May 13, 2014 12:28:33 PM MDT *To: *Mike Queen jmofgu...@gmail.com, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net *Cc: *Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net, SWR Cavers s...@caver.net, Derek Bristol derekbris...@comcast.net, Donald Davis dgda...@nyx.net, Debbie Buecher dbuec...@comcast.net Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. -- Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how *humans are a vector* even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency,
[SWR] Fwd: Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
A llitle levity (the best I could come up with at a late hour-early apologies for this) Roughly-best sung to a popular Beatles song only in the company of those you trust Someone hada cup o' tea, and they went into a cave, didn't clean their boots and a biologist began to rave, (didn't clean their boots cause the mud was in their eye (not a butter pie), YES! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES ACROSS THE SKY AY AY AY! SPORES ACROSS THE WATER, WATER, SPORES WAY OUT IN SPA, A, A , ACE…. Not a bit o'scientific proof, and the paper had a goof -not a footnote on the page, no supporting documents, not a bit you'd think to wage, Europeans were to blame, and that is such a shame, YES SHAME… -SO- when it was found out a new debate began to rage, (footnote? HA!! who needs a footnote when you got hysteria?! )HYS-TER-I-A! NOW, when ya send an e mail, just to make it clear, a few supporting documents just to hold it dear, Be like Officer Friday on the Show DRAGNET, stick to the facts an' make it clear you bet, YOU BET! NO emotions allow'd Allowed, ALL TOGETHER NOW (please) Spores across the water, water, spores (MAYBE?) under y'r boots ya ya ya! SPORES way out in space, SPA ACE, SPORES, got on your face……. (I think there was some tambourine at this point) Respectfully, There is a message here though…… Just the facts, keep emotions to a minimum, and as has already been requested, supporting documents. Validity, and proper scientific process are important-DUH (sorry, couldn't resist). Extrapolation of data based on subjective, rather than objective data, is not valid, and never will be. As Peter Jones said Let the debate continue!! Carl Pagano…... Begin forwarded message: From: Ken Harrington ken_harring...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas Date: May 13, 2014 12:28:33 PM MDT To: Mike Queen jmofgu...@gmail.com, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net Cc: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net, SWR Cavers s...@caver.net, Derek Bristol derekbris...@comcast.net, Donald Davis dgda...@nyx.net, Debbie Buecher dbuec...@comcast.net Michael, While I whole heartedly agree with what you are saying I also believe strongly that the various agencies don't give a rats ass what cavers think or say. They are not going to be swayed by logic, reason or evidence that does not conform to their preconceived ideas. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 11:58:08 -0600 From: jmofgu...@gmail.com To: pjca...@gwi.net CC: nmca...@comcast.net; s...@caver.net; dgda...@nyx.net; dbuec...@comcast.net; derekbris...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its course as it is spread by major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how humans are a vector even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as for instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats. Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms. And for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest (a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should be used instead of boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes, etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued. I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore,
