I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private ownership of caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the caves than agency ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany County, NY), because the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate cave owned by different folk) back in about 1971. When a land management agency works well things are great, as they are with private owners. However, if things go south with private owners there is absolutely no recourse but to buy the caves, and often the owners don't want to sell. Look at what caving in Texas is like, with almost no public land ownership. Anyone who thinks you can just go caving wherever and whenever one wants should think twice. So if we are lucky enough to know the land owners we can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we are not so lucky we should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we should speak out against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private ownership.
MQ On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Dwight <dirt...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > Hi John: > > > > I started caving in the east where private ownership of caves was the > norm. New York and New England, then Virginia and West Virginia. I moved > west and have dealt with government ownership of caves: State or Federal by > various agencies. So I understand your issues quite well. In many ways it > is fair to say that we cavers are now reaping what we have sowed. The > history of the last 50 years of exploration and discovery in Ft. Stanton > cave in New Mexico (as well documented in the recent publication *12 > Miles from Daylight*) so clearly documents the complications resulting > from agency ownership. The way we go caving is affected by the way caves > are owned and managed: by an individual, a family, a private trust, or a > bureaucracy. > > > > That, however, is a different (but not entirely unrelated) question from > the one I intended to ask, which was focused on the future membership of > the NSS. How do we acquire new NSS members? Most members have been > recruited either from existing cavers or by NSS groups recruiting new > members from the interested public through structured educational and > recruitment campaigns. Most of us probably agree that our goal is to create > an educated public aware of the value and fragility of our cave resources > as well as a body of people who actually spend some of their time exploring > and studying caves. > > > > The intended goal of my question is to lead to new, younger, members of > the NSS to carry on our goals into the changing future. > > > > Thanks for your thoughts and comments. You raise the management issues > that complicate our enjoyment of "just going caving". > > > > DirtDoc > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Dirt Doc Question > By: John Hutchison (White House, Tennessee) > idigca...@yahoo.com > > Dwight Deal asked a question. "In your thinking, John, what is the > balance between cavers and the caves? Our near-term experiences vrs the > resource itself?' > > All I have to relate to is my own personal observance. In years past > caves were much easier to visit when they were privately owned. Once > government became involved the issue of access became a hassle, an extra > expense, and worst of all, a no go. Today, most government owned, or > controlled caves are closed outright (unless you know the right person). > Others require a permit, hunting license fee, or all three. One area in > my state wants to charge everyone $15 a day per vehicle for a day trip > and that does not include a permit to go caving. No camping, no caving, > even though there are some great caves on the property. It is also a > hassle to acquire the land permit as you have to go when the office is > open and it is often not close to where you want to go. Private > landowners were much easier to deal with. You went, you asked and you > got to go or you didn't. Free. > > Here in TN we had a great cove and cave called Camps Gulf. Both were > pristine. Then the local state park acquired the cave and began > shuttling non caver tourists to the cave. Once they knew where it was > they would sometimes come back on their own and trash the cave. So that > was the excuse used to gate off the entire cove. No more camping, no > more driving a 4x4 up the cove. The cave was pristine before the state > acquired it. So is it really better when everything is "proteceted"? > Once "protected" people tend to sneak or breach a gate and vandalize > just because they are P.O.'d that they can't access "public" owned land. > > So, as far as I can tell, the best protection of all, was not telling > the general public where all the caves are. Grottoes were the best way > to learn caver etiquette, proper procedures, safety, environmental > concerns, technique, equipment, and cave locations while accompanied by > trained cavers. > > The state of TN has bought up thousands of acres of land with hundreds > of great caves and paid for it with public money yet most of it is off > limits to the public. Is that really right? I don't think so. Sometimes > I wish I could live in the past. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/swrcavers/1171764915.75572937.1499787221731. > JavaMail.zimbra%40comcast.net > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/1171764915.75572937.1499787221731.JavaMail.zimbra%40comcast.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >
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