Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for salamandering, if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then you could stash a sweater and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag. I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP. Dave wrote: Sounds like fun. I wish I could have been there. WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP 2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS 3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE. LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE. BILL David Locklear On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada ara...@gmail.com wrote: Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for salamandering, if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then you could stash a sweater
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. Oh yeah, thanks, I also always carry a balaclava. And I have loaned it to other people too, when it really mattered for their well being. Bill Linda Palit lkpa...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
To build in a little perspective, after caving in the NE for a while, the balaclava and trash bag, as well as the thermos, are essentials. A nice little trick is to keep the trash bag folded inside the helmet - dry, accessible, and out of the way from heavier gear. Otherwise, we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - which seems to work well enough. The best thing, though, is to keep moving. The water and wind steal body heat quickly, and make for a quick cooldown. Cheers, --Dave On Jan 31, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Linda Palit wrote: Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over- top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called 6 inch polyblend work shoe: http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wear
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Good point on the suggestion to double sock. On long wet trips my feet become sensitive to the wool, so I slip on a very thin nylon liner sock first, then the wool, and finally the neoprene sock. I usually buy the neoprene sock a size larger than usual to easily accommodate the liner and wool, if in doubt take the sock(s) you plan to wear to the store (Academy, etc.) and layer away as you would at the cave entrance. Be aware that the nylon sock is not the kind most often worn by divers using adjustable strap fins, it has to fit in the boot so the rubber sole booties are not what you want. --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Dave H. Crusoe dhcru...@projectkir.org wrote: ... we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - which seems to work well enough. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
