Re: [Texascavers] RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Hi Louise! Having worked for local and state government in two countries (Texas and East Germany), and for multiple agencies, your feed back has been spot on as to how to handle delicate and productive communications to these agencies. In my opinion, you have never once suggested not exercising ones freedom of speech, only provided excellent feedback on how to make exercising this right productive. I have found these listservs to be hot buttons for those who have knee jerk reactions, if not just being jerks in general. The original thread about the FOIA should have been applauded and read thoroughly to realize that the response to all of the valid FOIA requests will take a significant amount of time. It's very unfortunate that others do not understand the process, and did not find your professional insights valid. Contacting you personally with harsh criticism is not warranted, justified or going to make a difference. I appreciate you putting a stop to this thread and being willing to continue to contribute your knowledge to the group on future topics. Wishing you a peaceful rest of your holiday weekend. I look forward to your professional and thoughtful future contributions. - julia germany - from julia's cell > On May 25, 2014, at 19:13, Louise Power wrote: > > To all: > > Nobody is trying to abridge anyone's constitutional freedoms. Only to point > out that there are ways of exercising them that are more productive than > others. Email bombing and bullying are not productive ways of dealing with > any executive. I'm done with this conversation. Nothing productive is being > said at this point and I'm tired of being email bombed and bullied and I'm > not even an excutive. I'm just a nice person who used to be a very active > caver in the 60s and 70s. I no longer want to be the object of your whiney, > "I'm being so abused," "I can do and say whatever I want" rants. Ask > yourself, does anybody really care! According to your complaints, possibly > not, and certainly not me any more. Let's find something else to talk about. > > Louise > > Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM > From: pagan...@comcast.net > Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 11:06:57 -0600 > CC: power_lou...@hotmail.com; s...@caver.net > To: lobofl...@gmail.com > > Jeff and Louise, > In reading your open discussion of your previous e mail below, I offer this, > also keeping it open: > > This is amendment I of the US Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights: > > "Amendment I of the US Constitution: > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or > of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to > petition the Government for a redress of grievances." > > The last three sentences are what it seems to be all about and beginning to > happen here: freedom of speech or of the press, the right to send e mails as > often as we like; the right to peaceably assemble-as at the regional or any > other way we like; last and most important of all, the right to petition the > Government for a redress of grievances. i.e. an FOIA regarding the policies > of cave closure and WNS. > > As for anyone stating that "you don't have a clue", I again refer to the > Constitution of the United States, especially the part about "to petition the > Government for a redress of grievances. " It states nothing about the > workload or anything else for whom the petition is directed. > > As in my previous e mail dated 05/24, which I now include in this discussion: > > "To set the record straight: Bullying, or being bullied, according to > www.meriam-webster.com, is "to treat abusively, to affect by means of > coercion, to use browbeating language or behavior". > > Filing a FOIA request, or having one or 10,000 individuals send respectful e > mails to one or more BLM and or state officials is not bullying. To > paraphrase Lynda Sanchez in a recent post, it is a beautiful part of this > country- TO BE HEARD, whether in a town hall meeting, or as an individual > participating in threads on the SWR list-or sending a respectful e mail > request to a BLM or for that matter any government official-it is YOUR RIGHT. > EXERCISING THAT RIGHT ALLOWS YOU TO KEEP THAT RIGHT. > > When policies, procedures, or laws are clearly unjust, there are ways in > which to ask that they be rectified. When we as a people, or in this case as > a community of cavers, allow ourselves to be administered to by BLM or ANY > government administrator in ways we perceive to be unjust, and DO NOT stand > up (respectfully) to be heard, we lose part of ourselves. We become less of a > democracy. We become less of ourselves." > > FYI regarding respect: > It is Mr. Jesse Juan, STATE DIRECTOR of the BLM. >He has earned that title, and should be addressed as such, as should any > government of
[Texascavers] RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
To all: Nobody is trying to abridge anyone's constitutional freedoms. Only to point out that there are ways of exercising them that are more productive than others. Email bombing and bullying are not productive ways of dealing with any executive. I'm done with this conversation. Nothing productive is being said at this point and I'm tired of being email bombed and bullied and I'm not even an excutive. I'm just a nice person who used to be a very active caver in the 60s and 70s. I no longer want to be the object of your whiney, "I'm being so abused," "I can do and say whatever I want" rants. Ask yourself, does anybody really care! According to your complaints, possibly not, and certainly not me any more. Let's find something else to talk about. Louise Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM From: pagan...@comcast.net Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 11:06:57 -0600 CC: power_lou...@hotmail.com; s...@caver.net To: lobofl...@gmail.com Jeff and Louise, In reading your open discussion of your previous e mail below, I offer this, also keeping it open: This is amendment I of the US Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights: "Amendment I of the US Constitution:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."The last three sentences are what it seems to be all about and beginning to happen here: freedom of speech or of the press, the right to send e mails as often as we like; the right to peaceably assemble-as at the regional or any other way we like; last and most important of all, the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. i.e. an FOIA regarding the policies of cave closure and WNS. As for anyone stating that "you don't have a clue", I again refer to the Constitution of the United States, especially the part about "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " It states nothing about the workload or anything else for whom the petition is directed. As in my previous e mail dated 05/24, which I now include in this discussion: "To set the record straight: Bullying, or being bullied, according to www.meriam-webster.com, is "to treat abusively, to affect by means of coercion, to use browbeating language or behavior". Filing a FOIA request, or having one or 10,000 individuals send respectful e mails to one or more BLM and or state officials is not bullying. To paraphrase Lynda Sanchez in a recent post, it is a beautiful part of this country- TO BE HEARD, whether in a town hall meeting, or as an individual participating in threads on the SWR list-or sending a respectful e mail request to a BLM or for that matter any government official-it is YOUR RIGHT. EXERCISING THAT RIGHT ALLOWS YOU TO KEEP THAT RIGHT. When policies, procedures, or laws are clearly unjust, there are ways in which to ask that they be rectified. When we as a people, or in this case as a community of cavers, allow ourselves to be administered to by BLM or ANY government administrator in ways we perceive to be unjust, and DO NOT stand up (respectfully) to be heard, we lose part of ourselves. We become less of a democracy. We become less of ourselves." FYI regarding respect:It is Mr. Jesse Juan, STATE DIRECTOR of the BLM. He has earned that title, and should be addressed as such, as should any government official e mailed to. Filing of the FOIA, and the sending of e mails to BLM and hopefully to State Officials, is democracy at its best. There should be never be any fear of doing so. " Nor should there be any hesitation either. Further, yes, keeping it civil is what it's all about. A person's workload and priorities, or what they have on their agenda, are irrelevant. How many e mails a government official gets regarding a petition for redress of grievances, is absolutely relevant. It is an indicator of the opinions and values, likes and dislikes of the people they serve in the position they occupy, in this case for those who use PUBLIC LANDS- for whom they set policy, and work for. Finally, as for "a better perspective": seems that that has already been taken care of-about 214 years ago (final state ratification of the US Constitution). An FOIA request, and respectful, relevant-to-the subject e mails, to key-policy Government and (hopefully) State officials seems to be the proper, finest, and very necessary mode of discourse-referring once again to the last words of Amendment I, . "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." As has been stated, it is far time that this is done regarding the policies of the BLM regarding WNS and cave closures. Carl…... On May 24, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Jeff B. wrote:Louise, we should keep this discussion civil and out in the open. Mr. Juen has many issue
[Texascavers] RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Of course, anyone who has worked on these sort of federal issues also knows that sometimes the agencies need counteracting pressures, like a FOIA request, to let them do the "right" thing. Way to go, SWR! Reasonable federal officials (and most are reasonable, well-meaning people) will not see a FOIA request as a confrontation action..just citizens exercising their rights. Louise D. Hose 713-816-5259 From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:50 PM To: Ken Harrington; Steve Peerman; SWR Cavers; texas cavers Subject: RE: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM Just remember what your mama told you, "You can get more flies with honey than vinegar." Be nice. BLM employees are people, too. You probably have no idea the problems they have to cope with. Irate cavers, like irate ranchers, not being the least of these.
