Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 3
Totally agreed, you make very good points Gill. On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Gill Ediger wrote: > At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: >> >> Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the >> membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the >> TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop. > > On the contrary. Use The CAVER to promote membership among those who > wouldn't otherwise join. It appears to all the independent cavers in Texas > that the TSA doesn't care about them--ignores them totally, in fact. The > CAVER should be the advertising medium for the TSA. It should be made > available all cavers for free as a service (that is an important word, now) > to all Texas cavers. Then, amongst all the trip reports and safety and > equipment and technique and other caving information will be ads for the TSA > Convention, board meetings, all the Project reports, and joining the TSA. If > it's only $10 or $15 or even $20 you will probably double your membership, > not reduce it. TSA membership should, of course, be pushed to all > non-members at Grotto meetings, Projects, board meetings, and other TSA > functions, as well as TCR and other events. > > --Ediger >
RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
Charles, You said Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.Maybe it's time for TSA to revisit their mission statement. I assume that's what that statement is on the website, especially paragraph 2. To wit: "Howdy!" from the members of the TSA. The TSA is a not-for-profit organization that supports cave exploration and cave studies by cavers in and around the state of Texas. It is comprised of members and clubs (called Grottos). It is an internal organization of the National Speleological Society (NSS). The Texas Speleological Association was formed in 1956 to bring the widely dispersed cavers and caving organizations in Texas together as an Association in order to promote cooperation and to coordinate the caving activities within the state. The cavers and organizations have changed over the years; both have increased in number and diversity. The importance of the TSA as an Association has never been greater. If you care about Texas caving at all, if you care about the discovery and exploration of new caves, if you care about mapping, if you care about conservation, if you care about safety, if you care to meet other cavers, if you care to know more about caving, if you want to keep up with the latest developments in equipment and techniques, then it is important that you join and support the TSA, and subscribe to its publications. Membership in the TSA includes a subscription to The Texas Caver magazine. It also includes the Special Activities Newsletter when published for events like elections, etc.. Now from what I see after all those lofty ideas there's an "Oh yes, you also get The Texas Caver and the Activities Newsletter..." So what is the real mission of TSA? Kindly, Louise > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:51:44 -0600> From: wo...@justfamily.org> To: > gi...@worldnet.att.net> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: > [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense> > Gill, I'm guessing that they > want to use the TexasCaver to promote the> membership, and that they are > afraid that if they gave away the> TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships > will drop.> > So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides > the> publication? I've heard this question at other times, even when not> > discussing electronic versus printing issues.> > I don't have all of the > answers, but this is what I've seen:> > The TSA promotes Texas caving in many > ways, CBSP project, helping with> land acquisition, and donated money for > repairs at Honey Creek.> > I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone > that complains should> attend the meetings and be vocal. Merely complaining > online isn't> going to cut it. The TSA membership voted, the decision has > been> made. And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you> > know the answer to this, you should have been present.> > We all have our > opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them,> however, it doesn't mean > that we are right :)> > Charles> > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill > Ediger wrote:> > Charles is exactly right. The whole > idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it> > CAN be printed out (in color, no > less) and hard copy (and digitally)> > archived for a whole lot less money > than the cost of printing and mailing. I> > cannot imagine reading an > important digital publication on line. I almost> > always print them out, > collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up> > on the desk. > Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet.> > Those that > don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color,> > more > friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.> > It > is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a> > long > time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only> > thing > missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription> > newsletter > online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas> > cavers who > would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will> > suffer > the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and> > contributors. > They will miss out on the important information published in> > The CAVER and > and the subscribers will miss out on the information which> > would normally > be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The> > CAVER. The TSA is >
RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
I would also say that there are those of us no longer in Texas, not a TSA member (but former TSA for many years), who are still interested in what goes on there. > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:36:57 -0600> To: texascavers@texascavers.com> From: gi...@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense> > Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is > that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and > digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of > printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital > publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, > and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a > printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can > have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly > to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. It is > one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a > long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The > only thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite > subscription newsletter online which will not be readily available to > all of the Texas cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and > all of Texas caving) will suffer the consequences of not having those > cavers as readers and contributors. They will miss out on the > important information published in The CAVER and and the subscribers > will miss out on the information which would normally be contributed > by those barred from 2-way access to The CAVER. The TSA is not an > association of Texas cavers; it is an association of dues payers > beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by reaching out > to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet > offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first > step has been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect > prompted that change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the > next step to include all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a > part of the Association by offering them access to both read and > contribute to the valuable contents of The TEXAS CAVER.> > I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody > who is caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and > to promote good and smart caving practices among them and induce more > submission to The TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's > use it to reach out to those non-participants. Draw them in with a > positive influence and counteract any bad caving habits they may > have--all at no cost to anyone.> > --Ediger> > At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:> >Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,> >have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way> >the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher> >subscriptions.> >> >The TSA is moving in the correct direction.> >> >As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,> >proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.> >> >Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and> >accurate accounting of the off-site files.> >> >Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not> >prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I> >want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably> >talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.> >> >If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing> >shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you> >in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate> >for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.> >This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect> >to pay that cost.> > > -> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>
Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 3
At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop. On the contrary. Use The CAVER to promote membership among those who wouldn't otherwise join. It appears to all the independent cavers in Texas that the TSA doesn't care about them--ignores them totally, in fact. The CAVER should be the advertising medium for the TSA. It should be made available all cavers for free as a service (that is an important word, now) to all Texas cavers. Then, amongst all the trip reports and safety and equipment and technique and other caving information will be ads for the TSA Convention, board meetings, all the Project reports, and joining the TSA. If it's only $10 or $15 or even $20 you will probably double your membership, not reduce it. TSA membership should, of course, be pushed to all non-members at Grotto meetings, Projects, board meetings, and other TSA functions, as well as TCR and other events. --Ediger
Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 2
Yep, I agree again. I do hope, however, that none of my positive solutions to the many problems are thought of as complaints. I don't complain--I fix things, or offer solutions for others to implement if it is outside my domain. This problem has such a simple solution that I'm embarassed for those who can't see it. I'm just here to help, --Ediger At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote: Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop. So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the publication? I've heard this question at other times, even when not discussing electronic versus printing issues. I don't have all of the answers, but this is what I've seen: The TSA promotes Texas caving in many ways, CBSP project, helping with land acquisition, and donated money for repairs at Honey Creek. I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone that complains should attend the meetings and be vocal. Merely complaining online isn't going to cut it. The TSA membership voted, the decision has been made. And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you know the answer to this, you should have been present. We all have our opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them, however, it doesn't mean that we are right :) Charles On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill Ediger wrote: > Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it > CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally) > archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and mailing. I > cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost > always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up > on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet. > Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, > more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. > It is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a > long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only > thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription > newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas > cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will > suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and > contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in > The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which > would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The > CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association > of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by > reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet > offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has > been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that > change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include > all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a part of the Association by > offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable contents of > The TEXAS CAVER. > > I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is > caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote > good and smart caving practices among them and induce more submission to The > TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to > those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and > counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone. > > --Ediger > > At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote: >> >> Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy, >> have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way >> the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher >> subscriptions. >> >> The TSA is moving in the correct direction. >> >> As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends, >> proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent. >> >> Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and >> accurate accounting of the off-site files. >> >> Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not >> prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I >> want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably >> talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out. >> >> If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing >> shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you >> in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate >> for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing co
Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop. So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the publication? I've heard this question at other times, even when not discussing electronic versus printing issues. I don't have all of the answers, but this is what I've seen: The TSA promotes Texas caving in many ways, CBSP project, helping with land acquisition, and donated money for repairs at Honey Creek. I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone that complains should attend the meetings and be vocal. Merely complaining online isn't going to cut it. The TSA membership voted, the decision has been made. And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you know the answer to this, you should have been present. We all have our opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them, however, it doesn't mean that we are right :) Charles On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill Ediger wrote: > Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it > CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally) > archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and mailing. I > cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost > always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up > on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet. > Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, > more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. > It is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a > long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only > thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription > newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas > cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will > suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and > contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in > The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which > would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The > CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association > of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by > reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet > offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has > been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that > change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include > all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a part of the Association by > offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable contents of > The TEXAS CAVER. > > I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is > caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote > good and smart caving practices among them and induce more submission to The > TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to > those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and > counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone. > > --Ediger > > At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote: >> >> Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy, >> have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way >> the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher >> subscriptions. >> >> The TSA is moving in the correct direction. >> >> As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends, >> proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent. >> >> Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and >> accurate accounting of the off-site files. >> >> Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not >> prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I >> want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably >> talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out. >> >> If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing >> shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you >> in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate >> for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost. >> This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect >> to pay that cost. > > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >
Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
-Original Message- >From: Gill Ediger >Sent: Jan 16, 2009 9:36 AM >To: texascavers@texascavers.com >Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense > >Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is >that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and >digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of >printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital >publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, >and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a >printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can >have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly >to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. And if one desires traditional hard copy, one could take up book binding and have matching volumes of "fine Corinthian leather" or use the skin of baby Naugas. R. Montalban http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. It is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a part of the Association by offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable contents of The TEXAS CAVER. I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote good and smart caving practices among them and induce more submission to The TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone. --Ediger At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote: Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy, have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher subscriptions. The TSA is moving in the correct direction. As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends, proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent. Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and accurate accounting of the off-site files. Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not prudent in these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I want them, no. Not everyone could afford them, we should probably talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out. If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to you in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost. This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect to pay that cost. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
