--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com wrote:
From: Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] FW: Guadalupe Caves Update
To: Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 9:18 PM
The Q thing is about when the meeting will be.
I talked to Jim Dale and YES THEY WANT TO BE AT THE MEETING! You don't have
to hammer the choir to death.We are ALL on the same side. And yes I was under
the impression the FS was being forthright, somewhat ! Based on what I was
seeing, hearing and having to deal with, first hand in the offices and in the
field! OK?
I was around with Ransom. GOD I MISS THAT MAN...I all too well
remember what he had to put up with. If you will notice... I do much resto work
for the BLM NPS, BUT NOT THE FS. I have not been to a High Guads project
since Dave Jagnow was heading it up.
I do agree
with you on the NPS policies concerning caves their management. I very much
believe we are walking a fine line these days if not careful, all
recreational caving will become a thing of the past. SAD
Later,
Karen
--- On Wed, 2/10/10, Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Stephen Fleming casto...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] FW: Guadalupe Caves Update
To: Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 11:54 AM
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 09:16, Karen Perry txcavem...@yahoo.com wrote:
I admit I was wrong on one issue... They do want to start adventure tours and
set fees to visit. Adventure tours would give back a min of 3% ticket price per
person collected. In case y'all don't
know, these kinds of tours can cost over $100 for a couple of hours. Right
now, I do not trust the LNFS at all. There have been too many lies and too many
false statements concerning this issue.
the only Q is when it will really be and if they decide Goodbar Pate are not
necessary participants.
Karen
Seems it wasn't too long ago you were telling me the FS was on the up and up,
when I was remarking about their complete lack of trustworthiness (based on
long experience).
Dealing with them will quickly change your perspective, as you are learning.
To iterate: I don't believe a thing they say without independent verification.
They are professional liars; and they think nobody notices.
The Pate and Goodbar thing is mostly a smokescreen. In no way will they let
another agency tell them how to operate or what they need to do. They may put
up a cosmetic front for public consumption but that's all it is. Plus it allows
for more stalling on issues, especially if they 'just can't seem to get
everybody together for a meeting'.
When they do hold a meeting, they will nod politely and scribble notes, but
they absolutely do not care what the public thinks unless they think the public
can negatively affect them. I was in the group that fought them hard over the
fee demo thing. We made them believe we could affect them and then we screwed
up by promising all that silly work in lieu of fees. We never should have done
that because it wasn't necessary in retrospect and the FS has NEVER upheld
their end of the bargain by getting the caves open for recreational caving.
If you want to make inroads there's two things to concentrate on:
a) Do not use the NPS model of cave management for anything. They forgot a long
time ago the public is the owner of what they manage. This also is exactly how
the FS treats the public at present, they just do it without the funny hats.
b) Pressure the USFS to revoke the requirement for permits for all caves and
have them use the BLM model of no permits needed for ungated caves. This will
require a revision to their Code of Federal Regulations and it will have to be
done either by the Director of the Forest Service or maybe even the Secretary
of Agriculture (I haven't looked it up, but the FS director probably has the
authority). This would be no small feat to accomplish, it would take political
pressure, and surely would be opposed by certain cavers who either have
intimate relationships with the FS which provides them with special
arrangements, and cavers who are misguided in the belief these regulations and
processes actually result in 'protection'.
Cavers think the FS is hard at work protecting caves. They aren't and they
never have been. All they have accomplished over the years is to make it
increasingly harder for cavers to go caving. Don't think so? Ask them how many
prosecutions they ever have done regarding cave incidents. Better ask for
everything regardless of regulation because you'll probably find there has been
almost nothing prosecuted under the Cave Protection Act.
Cavers need to take a broader view of public lands and stop campaigning for and
submitting themselves to increasing regulation (that no other recreational
activity endures on public
