RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
George, Nice summary of the sinkhole problem and glad to see that they have some experts working on the problem. It should make some interesting papers. Good luck. Geary -Original Message- From: George Veni [mailto:gv...@warpdriveonline.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:10 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Here is the scoop. Most of the news reports I've seen have the story essentially right, so long as we don't quibble about details. The sinkhole formed due to brine production. Fresh water was pumped about 660 ft down to near the base of the Salado Formation (salt) and was pumped out as a brine and used in oil and gas well drilling. The resulting cavity became too large and unstable and collapsed. The sinkhole will continue to grow for some time at decelerating rates. The current diameter is about 90 m and the depth to water is perhaps 30 m (based on today's photos which have not yet been seen outside this office). The National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) has been collecting data on this and other such wells in the area. Dr. Lewis Land is taking the lead on the investigation. Thanks to the generosity of some pilots in Carlsbad who have volunteered to help us in our research, either Lewis or I have been in the air most days photo-monitoring the sinkhole's growth. However, due to the State's safety concerns (the sinkhole is on State land), we have not yet been able to put scale markers on the ground next to the sinkhole. We have spray-painted a scale on the nearby paved road, which isn't ideal but useful. Later will we analyze the images more closely to more accurately measure its changes in diameter and depth. We are working with the State to possibly arrange for a closer on-the-ground approach to the sinkhole to make some direct measurements. The concerns about the photos possibly not being authentic are not warranted. The photos from the air that I've seen posted on various websites came either from me, Lewis, or one of the pilots, Larry Pardue. Geary's observation about a rock fall is correct. One of the posted photos did capture a rock fall, as do some of the others we've collected. The general process for this type of sinkhole development is fairly well understood. We plan to continue research in hopes of learning some details not previously known, and to use this and other information to better assess the risk that such operations pose at existing and former brine production sites. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 1400 Commerce Dr. Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org 001-575-887-5517 (office) 001-210-863-5919 (mobile) 001-413-383-2276 (fax)
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
The development of a sinkhole that breaches the surface is not the inevitable outcome. It all depends on the size and shape of the void that is created and the structural competence of the overlying rock. If the engineering geologists underestimate either one, then collapse will occur. If either is underestimate enough, then the collapse will continue until it breaches the surface. Much like with natural caves, some collapses stabilize underground without breaking through to the surface. George -Original Message- From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 5:54 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico This hole formed similar to that sinkhole that formed south east of Houston a few months ago. Brine pumping operations caused both cases. Curious questions: Is it not the goal of the brine operators to pump the underground salt out and not form a sinkhole? If pumping brine out creates a hole in the underground, is it not natural that a sinkhole will eventually form on the surface? If a sinkhole forms from brine pumping operation, are there penalties for not doing it right or doing something wrong? -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
This hole formed similar to that sinkhole that formed south east of Houston a few months ago. Brine pumping operations caused both cases. Curious questions: Is it not the goal of the brine operators to pump the underground salt out and not form a sinkhole? If pumping brine out creates a hole in the underground, is it not natural that a sinkhole will eventually form on the surface? If a sinkhole forms from brine pumping operation, are there penalties for not doing it right or doing something wrong? -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
Here is the scoop. Most of the news reports I've seen have the story essentially right, so long as we don't quibble about details. The sinkhole formed due to brine production. Fresh water was pumped about 660 ft down to near the base of the Salado Formation (salt) and was pumped out as a brine and used in oil and gas well drilling. The resulting cavity became too large and unstable and collapsed. The sinkhole will continue to grow for some time at decelerating rates. The current diameter is about 90 m and the depth to water is perhaps 30 m (based on today's photos which have not yet been seen outside this office). The National Cave and Karst Research Institute (NCKRI) has been collecting data on this and other such wells in the area. Dr. Lewis Land is taking the lead on the investigation. Thanks to the generosity of some pilots in Carlsbad who have volunteered to help us in our research, either Lewis or I have been in the air most days photo-monitoring the sinkhole's growth. However, due to the State's safety concerns (the sinkhole is on State land), we have not yet been able to put scale markers on the ground next to the sinkhole. We have spray-painted a scale on the nearby paved road, which isn't ideal but useful. Later will we analyze the images more closely to more accurately measure its changes in diameter and depth. We are working with the State to possibly arrange for a closer on-the-ground approach to the sinkhole to make some direct measurements. The concerns about the photos possibly not being authentic are not warranted. The photos from the air that I've seen posted on various websites came either from me, Lewis, or one of the pilots, Larry Pardue. Geary's observation about a rock fall is correct. One of the posted photos did capture a rock fall, as do some of the others we've collected. The general process for this type of sinkhole development is fairly well understood. We plan to continue research in hopes of learning some details not previously known, and to use this and other information to better assess the risk that such operations pose at existing and former brine production sites. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 1400 Commerce Dr. Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220 USA gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org 001-575-887-5517 (office) 001-210-863-5919 (mobile) 001-413-383-2276 (fax)
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
>>>I stand by my observation that something about the photo looks weird. Hey, Louise!@! I thought you lived in Texas for a while!! DirtDoc
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
When Carl Kunath asked me why I came to my conclusion, here's what I wrote him. Obviously I was wrong, but I stand by my observation that something about the photo looks weird. Perhaps somebody tried to make certain features of the photo stand out more (the dark line across the top of the hole) by using Photoshop or some other enhancement program. "The edges of the sinkhole itself make the picture look as though the sinkhole has been cut from another photo and pasted onto the photo of the roads. Look at the dark line across the top and partially around the right edge of the hole. Does not appear natural especially where it runs across the roads, especially the top road that runs diagonally up and to the left (in approximately the 11 o'clock position) and the righthand road (in approximately the 2 o'clock position). The walls of the hole seem to sit above these roads and the other two roads that run "into" it from the top left, as well as above the surrounding terrain along the top of the hole. The steam that seems to be rising from the lefthand side stops at the rim. Usually at least some of the steam--even a few wisps--would rise above the rim. This steam does not even cross the dark line at the top of the hole and seems unnaturally curtailed at the rim. Yet another indication of possibly cutting and pasting. And, although it's a bit hard to tell since the plants are so small, the shadows from the plants don't seem to run in the same direction as the shadow in the hole. It looks like the sun is shining more straight down on the plants because the shadows are primarily underneath them. In the hole, it looks like the sun is at a significantly lower angle (about 110-120 degrees) judging by how the shadow cuts across the water (or mud or whatever is in it). Because of these reasons and 20 years of experience with Photoshop, it just doesn't look authentic to me." Subject: RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New MexicoDate: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:07:17 -0500From: gschindel@edwardsaquifer.orgTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; texascavers@texascavers.com Louise, Large sinks like this have formed before in the Wink County, Texas – Roswell – Artesia NM area. What is interesting about the photo is if you enlarge it, there appears to be dust in the left side of the sinkhole. I was wondering if this might be from a rock fall from the edge, mist rising from the pool of water, or if a car drove off the rim (cool but unlikely). If you look at the water in the bottom of the sink, you can see some large ripples that imply that something fell in. On another note, some years ago, a sinkhole opened up early one morning in a road near Fredrick, Maryland (home of Barbara Fritchie – protector of the US Flag). A fellow was driving down the road around 3AM when he drove into the sinkhole and was killed. These things can be very dangerous. Geary -Original Message-From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 3:50 PMTo: Geary Schindel; texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Well, obviously I was wrong on this one, but the photo that was sent out first did not look real. Sorry! List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:32:50 -0500From: gschindel@edwardsaquifer.orgTo: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Here is the link on the new sinkhole forming in New Mexico. Very interesting. Geary http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=8700699&nav=menu588_2_5_2
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
Louise, Large sinks like this have formed before in the Wink County, Texas - Roswell - Artesia NM area. What is interesting about the photo is if you enlarge it, there appears to be dust in the left side of the sinkhole. I was wondering if this might be from a rock fall from the edge, mist rising from the pool of water, or if a car drove off the rim (cool but unlikely). If you look at the water in the bottom of the sink, you can see some large ripples that imply that something fell in. On another note, some years ago, a sinkhole opened up early one morning in a road near Fredrick, Maryland (home of Barbara Fritchie - protector of the US Flag). A fellow was driving down the road around 3AM when he drove into the sinkhole and was killed. These things can be very dangerous. Geary -Original Message- From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 3:50 PM To: Geary Schindel; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Well, obviously I was wrong on this one, but the photo that was sent out first did not look real. Sorry! List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:32:50 -0500 From: gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Here is the link on the new sinkhole forming in New Mexico. Very interesting. Geary http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=8700699&nav=menu588_2_5_2
RE: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico
Well, obviously I was wrong on this one, but the photo that was sent out first did not look real. Sorry! List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:32:50 -0500From: gschindel@edwardsaquifer.orgTo: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: [Texascavers] FW: Sinkhole in New Mexico Here is the link on the new sinkhole forming in New Mexico. Very interesting. Geary http://www.krqe.com/Global/story.asp?S=8700699&nav=menu588_2_5_2
