Re: [Texascavers] Re: WNS and Cave Access

2011-03-15 Thread Andy Gluesenkamp
Read the studies.  Viable Gd spores were picked off of packs that were deconned 
before entering the cave.  I'm not saying I like the closures.  I'm just saying 
better to err on the side of caution until we know more.  Lots of good people 
are working hard to get a handle on this thing.
Andy

Re: [Texascavers] Re: WNS and Cave Access

2011-03-15 Thread Stephen Fleming

On 03/15/2011 12:52, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote:

I'll play this game:
"If cavers were a good vector, surely it would have been seen there 
way before now."


I agree with Mark.



To which I respond:
I was on a cross-country flight and everyone around me was sniffling 
and sneezing but I didn't get sick.  Surely, I am immune to the common 
cold virus.


No, you weren't immune to anything, just surrounded by a bunch of people 
with seasonal allergies. Just because it looks like a cold symptom does 
not mean it is a cold virus. Is that a stretch to believe no one on your 
flight was sick? So is a human vector for WNS.


There is evidence that viable Gd spores can be transmitted on cave 
packs.  That's not to say that they necessarily result in sucessful 
transmission in all cases.  I think it is better to be cautious while 
we learn more about WNS than to be forever slapping ourselfs on the 
forehead and earning our place on the wall of shame alongside that 
dodo who clubbed the last dodo.



Evidence of transmission? Where? Everything about WNS is hysteria-based. 
All is couched in 'might' and 'maybe' (and perhaps a secret hope by a 
few that cavers actually are a vector). After 4 years of study and 
hand-wringing, and the feel-good placebo of decon, there is not a single 
shred of _evidence_ that a human vector is involved. It all is 
conjecture risen to pseudo-fact and panic through endless repetition of 
an unproven assumption.


To believe that WNS was introduced from Europe by a caver who somehow 
picked up spores (and enough of them to be a viable threat), who packed 
his dirty gear for a caving trip in NY, and then managed against 
infinitesimal odds to drop a few in a hospitable location that  
blossomed into a colossal die-off significantly stretches credulity.


A much more likely scenario involves an infected or carrier bat(s) as a 
stowaway on international shipping (or somewhat less likely, but still 
way more believable than a human vector, an international passenger or 
cargo flight).  Howe Caverns is 32 miles from the Albany international 
shipping port on the Hudson River. There are other ports up and down the 
Hudson at greater distances, but several are within a bat's ability to 
reach Howe Caverns.


I suspect WNS will run its course much like the West Nile Virus and 
decon will eventually be known as ineffective and unnecessary, and 
equivalent to slapping individual mosquitoes to control West Nile.


I would change my perspective if some hard facts show otherwise, but 
given the lack thereof to date (after apparent intensive investigation) 
it would seem that anything cavers do or don't do has any demonstrable 
effect on encouraging or preventing the spread of WNS. That, of course, 
doesn't prevent agencies from instituting access restrictions as a 
knee-jerk reaction, even in the absence of any demonstrated need. The 
federal closures in NM are an excellent example of this.


--
Stephen Fleming
___

*FEAR is the THIEF of DREAMS* -- Unknown


RE: [Texascavers] Re: WNS and Cave Access

2011-03-15 Thread Stefan Creaser
"...alongside that dodo who clubbed the last dodo"

Are you saying that the extinction of the Dodo was an inside job?!!!

S.

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:52 PM
To: mmin...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: WNS and Cave Access

I'll play this game:
"If cavers were a good vector, surely it would have been seen there way before 
now."

Mark Minton (currently river caving in Puerto Rico)

To which I respond:
I was on a cross-country flight and everyone around me was sniffling and 
sneezing but I didn't get sick.  Surely, I am immune to the common cold virus.

There is evidence that viable Gd spores can be transmitted on cave packs.  
That's not to say that they necessarily result in sucessful transmission in all 
cases.  I think it is better to be cautious while we learn more about WNS than 
to be forever slapping ourselfs on the forehead and earning our place on the 
wall of shame alongside that dodo who clubbed the last dodo.

Andy

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Re: [Texascavers] Re: WNS and Cave Access

2011-03-15 Thread Andy Gluesenkamp
I'll play this game:
"If cavers were a good vector, surely it would have been seen there way before 
now."

Mark Minton (currently river caving in Puerto Rico)

To which I respond:
I was on a cross-country flight and everyone around me was sniffling and 
sneezing but I didn't get sick.  Surely, I am immune to the common cold virus.

There is evidence that viable Gd spores can be transmitted on cave packs.  
That's not to say that they necessarily result in sucessful transmission in all 
cases.  I think it is better to be cautious while we learn more about WNS than 
to be forever slapping ourselfs on the forehead and earning our place on the 
wall of shame alongside that dodo who clubbed the last dodo.

Andy