Re: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
Calling 911 is not mandated by law in the event of most lawful accidents, be it cave related or not. For example, if someone falls in their back yard and breaks their arm or leg, they are not required to call 911. A trip to the ER may be warranted but it is not required to call emergency services to provide the transportation. In many situations it may be advantageous to call 911 though not required. Many Emergency Medical Services (EMS) can provide advanced care (pain meds, cardiac care, anaphylactic meds, etc) that otherwise may not be readily available and can have a large baring on the final outcome. However, it does become a requirement to call the authorities when there is a death. The area is considered a crime scene if the person or persons are deceased. As this pertains to Cave events, 911 would only be mandated if there were a death. Though, the level of advanced care that potentially could be offered by EMS should be considered. A statement made earlier was a good perspective: I think common sense would dictate that an accident is 911 worthy when you've exhausted your personal resources/contacts or feel that they may not be adequate. . Many times a rescue can be accomplished by the caving party. There are times when outside help will be needed. Where that help comes from will be different for each situation. It may be local cavers called to help or it may be from the 911 system. There are many 911 systems that have excellent cave rescue capabilities. Some have none. I would recommend, if someone has a major injury that 911 be contacted. Often the EMS personnel can work with you to provide the advanced medical care the patient needs. I would absolutely recommend that when there is a fatality, 911 must be contacted. When making that phone call inform the operator of the complexity of the cave. Inquire as to their abilities to perform cave rescue. Ask for the phone number for the agency responsible for cave rescue. Many of these organizations will be receptive to suggestions or recommendations for outside help. Once contacted local authorities have a legal obligation to respond and provide assistance and will do the best they can with what they have and know. I am a large proponent of integrating cavers into cave rescues. Though this can be a tricky issue. I would strongly urge everyone to build a relationship with emergency response organizations in the areas you cave. Try to build those relationships and link them up with training specific to cave rescue. Help them become aware of the difficulties, specialized training, special equipment, etc. This will help with integrating cavers into future rescue efforts. There is no question that cavers have knowledge, skills, and abilities that the average rescuer does not have. The same is true in the reverse, the average rescuer has knowledge, skills, and abilities that the average caver does not. The solution is to merge these two together. Combine training opportunities will help with integrating the two groups together. Throughout the US the National Cave Rescue Commission (NCRC) has worked to make cave rescue a more readily available resource. NCRC offers Orientation to Cave Rescue's (OCR's). These OCR's are meant to provide an introduction to both of these groups as to what the others capabilities are. Additionally there are week long training seminars, teaching cave rescue skills. NCRC also has Regional Coordinators who can help provide training, aid in identifying rescue recourses and equipment, etc. NCRC is not a rescue team and cannot respond as such. Ultimately decisions will be made by the caving party and by responding agencies. NCRC's website and future training events can be found at ncrc.info Stay Safe, DJ DJ Walker PO Box 90146 Austin, TX 78709 512-751-6010 dj.wal...@mac.com On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Brian Riordan wrote: This law about calling 911 seems subjective. If we were required by law everytime there was a cave accident (whatever that is) I think I would have called it at least a half a dozen times by now. There are plenty of times I've been with someone stuck or have been stuck myself for far longer than I'd ever care for. Each time it has taken a great amount of willpower to remain calm, ignore the cramps and just stop moving and think for a few minutes. I've also had times where it was so tight, I felt like I was moving more with my ribs than with any help my arms could provide. I've grabbed a friends ankles and repeated the inch-worm movements backwards to pull them out of a tight spot. I can't imagine what chaos would have ensued if I had called 911 instead. I think common sense would dictate that an accident is 911 worthy when you've exhausted your personal resources/contacts or feel that they may not be adequate. And as far as caves go, I think my few contacts may be more adequate than most
Re: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
In the event of a cave accident, in the State of Texas you must call 911. That said, make sure the sheriff's department in your area knows that cave rescue is a special skill and make sure the sheriff has an easy way to contact the people with those skills. I'm betting just about any sheriff in any county with caves would be delighted to let people who actually like to go into caves be part of the response team. At least that's how it is in Sutton County. God willing we will never have to test this. Jacqui - Original Message - From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:58 PM Subject: [Texascavers] cave rescue related This is a response to Don's request to not call 911 if he needs a cave rescue. I agree with him... - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
Does that mean that we cannot start a self-rescue until the sheriff arrives and approves it? Where is that line drawn? What if we preform a self-rescue and never can or manage to get ahold of the sheriff or call 911? What kind of trouble are we in then? Just want to be sure to comply with the law. --Ediger On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 6:56 PM, J. LaRue Thomas jlrbi...@sonoratx.netwrote: In the event of a cave accident, in the State of Texas you must call 911. That said, make sure the sheriff's department in your area knows that cave rescue is a special skill and make sure the sheriff has an easy way to contact the people with those skills. I'm betting just about any sheriff in any county with caves would be delighted to let people who actually like to go into caves be part of the response team. At least that's how it is in Sutton County. God willing we will never have to test this. Jacqui - Original Message - From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com To: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:58 PM Subject: [Texascavers] cave rescue related This is a response to Don's request to not call 911 if he needs a cave rescue. I agree with him... - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
I feel like I have posted this before, but can't remember. Back in 1995, caver's gathered in the Sierra Alvarez for the 3rd Mexpeleo. There was a female on rope in and found her self upside-down in a tight vertical crevice.The cave was only about 1/4 mile from camp. Her husband rushed back to camp and found a group of about 7 cavers huddled around a campfire trying to stay warm. He was practically in tears begging for a cave rescue. We all just looked at him like a deer caught in headlights. But one caver stepped up and went and rescued her. I will let him tell the story as he is still an active caver in the U.T. Grotto, and probably on Cavetex. I stood outside the entrance trying to use my Spanish to help with the Red Cross Rescue Team that had showed up. I am not sure where they came from or why they were there so quickly. Maybe the were attending Mexpeleo ? Anyways, there were about 20 of them, but only one looked like he was prepared to go caving. They didn't go in the cave, but they did help on the surface, after she came out. My memory tells me, that had that caver not rescued her, I might have had to put on my gear and go down there.I think the reason I didn't gear up was that I heard there was some tight crawling to get to her. Factors affecting the rescue were the weather was miserable ( fog and cold, I think ), and all the experienced cavers were gone on the other side of the cordillera, in a cave that had a 700 foot drop. They were not expected back for at least 10 hours. I only bring all this up, because it could have been bad. There was another accident the next day. A caver got lost in the fog in the middle of the night. A search team spent hours looking for him.I don't know the outcome of that, but I presume he was found. A person could easily step off into a pit up there in the fog. There were something like 80 pits within a mile of camp. I would love to go back up there someday. Feel free to correct any of this or to add to it. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] cave rescue related
This law about calling 911 seems subjective. If we were required by law everytime there was a cave accident (whatever that is) I think I would have called it at least a half a dozen times by now. There are plenty of times I've been with someone stuck or have been stuck myself for far longer than I'd ever care for. Each time it has taken a great amount of willpower to remain calm, ignore the cramps and just stop moving and think for a few minutes. I've also had times where it was so tight, I felt like I was moving more with my ribs than with any help my arms could provide. I've grabbed a friends ankles and repeated the inch-worm movements backwards to pull them out of a tight spot. I can't imagine what chaos would have ensued if I had called 911 instead. I think common sense would dictate that an accident is 911 worthy when you've exhausted your personal resources/contacts or feel that they may not be adequate. And as far as caves go, I think my few contacts may be more adequate than most teams that 911 may put together for these specialist rescues. my $.02 -B On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:01 AM, David dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote: I feel like I have posted this before, but can't remember. Back in 1995, caver's gathered in the Sierra Alvarez for the 3rd Mexpeleo. There was a female on rope in and found her self upside-down in a tight vertical crevice. The cave was only about 1/4 mile from camp. Her husband rushed back to camp and found a group of about 7 cavers huddled around a campfire trying to stay warm. He was practically in tears begging for a cave rescue. We all just looked at him like a deer caught in headlights. But one caver stepped up and went and rescued her. I will let him tell the story as he is still an active caver in the U.T. Grotto, and probably on Cavetex. I stood outside the entrance trying to use my Spanish to help with the Red Cross Rescue Team that had showed up. I am not sure where they came from or why they were there so quickly. Maybe the were attending Mexpeleo ? Anyways, there were about 20 of them, but only one looked like he was prepared to go caving. They didn't go in the cave, but they did help on the surface, after she came out. My memory tells me, that had that caver not rescued her, I might have had to put on my gear and go down there. I think the reason I didn't gear up was that I heard there was some tight crawling to get to her. Factors affecting the rescue were the weather was miserable ( fog and cold, I think ), and all the experienced cavers were gone on the other side of the cordillera, in a cave that had a 700 foot drop. They were not expected back for at least 10 hours. I only bring all this up, because it could have been bad. There was another accident the next day. A caver got lost in the fog in the middle of the night. A search team spent hours looking for him. I don't know the outcome of that, but I presume he was found. A person could easily step off into a pit up there in the fog. There were something like 80 pits within a mile of camp. I would love to go back up there someday. Feel free to correct any of this or to add to it. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
