texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 16:31:27 -0000 Issue 913
Topics (messages 12928 through 12947):
Re: Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk to south pole
12928 by: Chris Vreeland
12934 by: Mark Minton
Re: Looking for an internship
12929 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12930 by: Alex Sproul
12931 by: ellie :)
12932 by: Joe Ranzau
12933 by: Lyndon Tiu
12939 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
12947 by: jranzau.gmail.com
Re: Digital vs. Print
12935 by: Logan McNatt
12940 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
12936 by: Rod Goke
12937 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
12938 by: Bill Bentley
12942 by: John Brooks
12945 by: Bill Bentley
Digital vs. Print 2
12941 by: Gill Edigar
Caver Memorial Web Page
12943 by: Ron Miller
World's most powerful flaslight
12944 by: Lee H. Skinner
TSA, Caver, and Caving
12946 by: Linda Palit
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--- Begin Message ---
Shackleton gets the short end of the stick when it comes to Antarctic
glory. He may not have made the south pole on either of his
expeditions (and first as an officer on one of Scott's early
expeditions) but unlike Scott, on his first expedition he turned back
from the pole when he realized his crew was in danger, and on the
second, as a result of his epic & heroic open-boat sail to S. Georgia
to effect a rescue, not a single life was lost under his leadership.
Scott may have made the pole, but his poorly-planned assault ended in
tragedy.
Far from "cursed," I think Shackleton deserves more from history for
the strong leadership he showed in keeping his men safe, first of all.
Anyone seriously interested in this period of exploration should read
Beau Riffenbugh's book Shackleton's Forgotten Expedition -- The Voyage
of the Nimrod. It's a fascinating read, if you're into exploration, as
I assume most of you out there in Caver-land are. :-)
Chris
On Dec 12, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Fofo wrote:
Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web
pages on the "Shackleton curse."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm certain that was a typo. Earlier in the article they
used almost the same language (in two different paragraphs), saying
"Shackleton abandoned his attempt to walk to the south pole with 112
miles remaining" and "Shackleton and three others abandoned their
expedition in January 1909 with their food supplies running
out." Plus that list of great polar expeditions was chronological.
Mark Minton
Oh, that would have been interesting! There would have been web
pages on the "Shackleton curse."
There was in fact an expedition with descendants from the Shackleton
expedition, but they did reach the pole:
http://www.dawn.com/2009/01/19/int6.htm
http://www.shackletoncentenary.org/
And here's a TinyUrl address for the Guardian article, since it
seems that it was chopped off in some e-mails:
http://tinyurl.com/yd5f3fe
Take care,
- Fofo
Stefan Creaser wrote, on 12/12/09 11:06:
Are you sure it was a typo, wasn't it one of Shackleton's descendants
who gave it a go?
Cheers,
Stefan
-----Original Message-----
From: Fofo [mailto:gonza...@msu.edu] Sent: Saturday, December 12,
2009 1:02 PM
To: texascavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Teenager, 17, hopes to outdo Shackleton and walk
to south pole
Howdy!
There's an interesting article in The Guardian. Not related to
caves, though, but about an expedition to the South Pole:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/11/katie-walter-south-pole-shackle
ton
One interesting bit of information is that Shackleton gave it
another try earlier this year:
"Shackleton and two others got to within 112 miles of the south
pole in January 2009 before abandoning their attempt with food
supplies running short."
Wow, you'd think that they would have been better prepared this time!
- Fofo
(PS: I realize that the Shackleton 2009 thing a typo)
You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded by Mixon:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Justin Dickens <jdick...@alaskapacific.edu>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: December 12, 2009 10:52:17 AM CST
To: "tenakee...@yahoo.com" <tenakee...@yahoo.com>, "carleneall...@hotmail.com
" <carleneall...@hotmail.com>, "pisarow...@alumni.hamline.edu" <pisarow...@alumni.hamline.edu
>, "laga...@nmt.edu" <laga...@nmt.edu>, "vickie_sie...@yahoo.com" <vickie_sie...@yahoo.com
>, "edi...@amcs-pubs.org" <edi...@amcs-pubs.org>
Subject: Looking for an internship
Hello,
I go by Justin Dickens and i am asking for you attention because i
would like to request a work opportunity from you. I grew up in the
karst topography of Missouri, caving everyday i could. Now i am in
Alaska attending college at Alaska Pacific University in my sophomore
year. I am looking for an internship but more importantly i am just
looking to get around caves. i want to gain more knowledge of cave
surveying so i can work towards helping with the caves in the Tongass
National Forest. I love to cave and talk about anything that has to do
with caves. Please feel free to contact me if you have any ways to
assist me in achieving my goal.
Thanks,
Justin Dickens
4101 University Dr. N-14
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles said:
> My opinion, we put a monetary value with it, if you want a printed hard copy, mailed to you,
> you get to pay extra :)
Seems only fair that if e-copies are essentially free, vs. snailed copies that cost a good bit,
those who demand hard-copy should pay the freight. The rest shouldn't have pay for their
indulgence; that would be like (gasp!) health insurance!
They would also save Mark's remaining sanity (if any) as well as money in the long run if they
printed their own.
Crash said:
> ...bibliophiles like myself and Mixon definitely prefer old-fashioned hard copy, and I
> don't mean cheap, single-sided inkjet copies that fade over time and bleed if they get
> damp.
Point taken. Get a color laser printer that prints head-to-head. At Staples, they have a
genuine HP wireless model for $400, or a Brother for only $300, and they put them on sale
occasionally. See http://tinyurl.com/y8dkplq
There are a lot of grottos who only print electronically, and their membership isn't suffering.
Here are a couple of nice ones:
Alex
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver
On 12/13/09, Alex Sproul <imoca...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Charles said:
>> My opinion, we put a monetary value with it, if you want a printed hard
>> copy, mailed to you,
>> you get to pay extra :)
>
> Seems only fair that if e-copies are essentially free, vs. snailed copies
> that cost a good bit, those who demand hard-copy should pay the freight.
> The rest shouldn't have pay for their indulgence; that would be like (gasp!)
> health insurance!
>
> They would also save Mark's remaining sanity (if any) as well as money in
> the long run if they printed their own.
>
> Crash said:
>> ...bibliophiles like myself and Mixon definitely prefer old-fashioned hard
>> copy, and I
>> don't mean cheap, single-sided inkjet copies that fade over time and bleed
>> if they get
>> damp.
>
> Point taken. Get a color laser printer that prints head-to-head. At
> Staples, they have a genuine HP wireless model for $400, or a Brother for
> only $300, and they put them on sale occasionally. See
> http://tinyurl.com/y8dkplq
>
> There are a lot of grottos who only print electronically, and their
> membership isn't suffering. Here are a couple of nice ones:
>
> http://www.bhamgrotto.org/bham/BGN/NOV2009.pdf
> http://www.blueridgegrotto.org/dump/dump112009.pdf
>
> Alex
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like?
Joe
On Dec 13, 2009, at 4:34 PM, "ellie :)" <ellie.tho...@gmail.com> wrote:
The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver
On 12/13/09, Alex Sproul <imoca...@comcast.net> wrote:
Charles said:
My opinion, we put a monetary value with it, if you want a printed
hard
copy, mailed to you,
you get to pay extra :)
Seems only fair that if e-copies are essentially free, vs. snailed
copies
that cost a good bit, those who demand hard-copy should pay the
freight.
The rest shouldn't have pay for their indulgence; that would be
like (gasp!)
health insurance!
They would also save Mark's remaining sanity (if any) as well as
money in
the long run if they printed their own.
Crash said:
...bibliophiles like myself and Mixon definitely prefer old-
fashioned hard
copy, and I
don't mean cheap, single-sided inkjet copies that fade over time
and bleed
if they get
damp.
Point taken. Get a color laser printer that prints head-to-head. At
Staples, they have a genuine HP wireless model for $400, or a
Brother for
only $300, and they put them on sale occasionally. See
http://tinyurl.com/y8dkplq
There are a lot of grottos who only print electronically, and their
membership isn't suffering. Here are a couple of nice ones:
http://www.bhamgrotto.org/bham/BGN/NOV2009.pdf
http://www.blueridgegrotto.org/dump/dump112009.pdf
Alex
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--- Begin Message ---
ellie :) wrote:
> The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver
Joe Ranzau wrote:
Like?
Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA
paid for their registration.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of the other items the TSA has supported:
* A sizeable donation to the NSS for their White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response
Effort.
* Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot of survey equipment used around the
state for various projects.
* A huge donation to the TCMA towards the payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave
purchase.
Plus, many other smaller projects that are listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
(Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you would ask this. You're a board member
of the TCMA and were present when we conducted the votes on all of the above
items). 8^(>
Mark
________________________________
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
ellie :) wrote:
> The TSA membership fees cover much more than the cost of The Caver
Joe Ranzau wrote:
> Like?
>
Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the ICS, the TSA
paid for their registration.
--
Lyndon Tiu
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mark -
In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also
been the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple
grotto officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's
hard work and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what
everyone does and have done much more shocking things than a one word
email. I was also sitting right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options
for things to do at Spring Convention when I responded to her email.
The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what
unique things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is
the same issue I struggled with when I was an officer.
*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it
were the only one I bet it would grow.
*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR
is explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out
financially on more than one occasion.
*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the
94 convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA
because it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.
*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our
grotto put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the
tractor working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.
*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA,
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the
TSS? The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is
working a huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc.
*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
affiliated with TSA.
*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to
contributed.
I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine
with a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a
bad thing and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.
Joe
On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
Some of the other items the
TSA has supported:
* A sizeable donation to the NSS for their
White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.
* Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot
of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.
* A huge donation to the TCMA towards the
payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.
Plus, many other smaller projects that are
listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
(Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you
would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we
conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^(>
Mark
From: Lyndon Tiu
[mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
To:
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a
Digital Online Member
ellie :) wrote:
> The TSA membership fees cover much
more than the cost of The Caver
Joe Ranzau wrote:
>
Like?
>
Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the
ICS, the TSA
paid for their registration.
--
Lyndon
Tiu
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of
The Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies
for all that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of
printed issues.
Questions for Mark: What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate? I
assume it requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't
meet that? I like the color photos, but how much do they add to the
cost of printing compared to the same photos in B&W? Just curious;
I'm not advocating all B&W.
Logan
(Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned
by TSA, most of which are not available electronically, but can be
yours for about 25 to 50 cents each. A treasure trove of maps, photos,
trip reports, etc.; buy now before they're all gone!)
George Veni wrote:
Many organizations now offer two membership rates:
1) Includes the cost of general newsletter production, web hosting, and
other support for the organization, and those members get a digital copy of
the publication.
2) Includes the above costs plus the cost of printing and mailing the
publications to those who need or want hardcopies. It is understood that
with fewer printed copies, the cost per copy will increase and those asking
for hardcopies will pay a higher rate than when the publications were
printed for everyone.
I won't be able to make the next TSA meeting, but hope this dual membership
rate is voted on. Digital members should not have to subsidize hardcopy
members, and hardcopy members should not have to do without a product that
is important to them and relatively simple for the organization to produce.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Kennedy [mailto:jkenn...@batcon.org]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 1:55 PM
To: Charles Goldsmith; Pete Lindsley
Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Digital
We have already. It was decided to offer both. Libraries in particular
(including the TSS) don't like digital publications. And bibliophiles
like myself and Mixon definitely prefer old-fashioned hard copy, and I
don't mean cheap, single-sided inkjet copies that fade over time and
bleed if they get damp.
-- Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 2:51 PM
To: Pete Lindsley
Cc: TexasCavers; Stefan Creaser
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member of the
TSA and Save My Sanity - DANGER! Rant Mode Fully On! LONG
You know, we can easily put this to a vote at the next meeting.
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I
plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future.
(Sorry to tell y'all that!)
I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not
stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas!
Good point about the back issues,
Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter
meeting at CBSP?
A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back issues!
Thanks,
Mark
________________________________
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM
To: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print
I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The Texas
Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all that prefer
them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed issues.
Questions for Mark: What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate? I assume it
requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that? I like
the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing compared to
the same photos in B&W? Just curious; I'm not advocating all B&W.
Logan
(Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by TSA,
most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for about 25
to 50 cents each. A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports, etc.; buy
now before they're all gone!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our
website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail:
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds
me of a related issue:
Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal
forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period,
however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and
phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT Grotto Phone
List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe
with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone
List" is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal
information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search
engines, etc.
I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've
heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication
without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are
advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time
that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by
placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to
implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal
information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use
it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers,
etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no
cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the
continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill
considered digital publication of email addresses and other information
vulnerable to automated harvesting?
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the TSA does have an online listing of the electronically registered
membership on its website. It's a password protected site.
Jerry.
In a message dated 12/14/2009 2:05:11 A.M. Central Standard Time,
rod.g...@earthlink.net writes:
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
reminds me of a related issue:
Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same
period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing
address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT
Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was
sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the
"UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form, where email
addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by
spammers,
telemarketers, search engines, etc.
I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what
they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from
time to time that TSA publish its membership list information electronically,
perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient
for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our
personal information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those
who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell
phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list,
there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be
confident that the continuing push towards digital publication within TSA
will not lead to ill considered digital publication of email addresses and
other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder
and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure what is
crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If
someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs,
diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a
complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of the
spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in the
header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
reminds me of a related issue:
Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same
period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing
address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT
Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was
sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that
the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form, where email
addresses and other personal information is not likely to be harvested by
spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of what
they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from
time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and
convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it also
could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to undo
the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards digital
publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital publication
of email addresses and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
Rod
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The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail messages
per WEEK.
Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA for
something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems fair or
reasonable.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
Rod,
My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam folder
and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure what is
crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of spam... If
someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the drugs, diplomas
and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that a complete overhaul
of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can currently send from and
have the reply to address be different. A lot of the spam I gets looks as if it
is coming to me from me... but buried in the header I find that it comes from
Korea or China...
Bill
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver reminds
me of a related issue:
Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership renewal
forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this same period,
however, I have been providing my email address (along with mailing address and
phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in their "UT Grotto Phone
List". Why is it that I have felt that my email address was sufficiently safe
with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone
List" is published only in paper form, where email addresses and other personal
information is not likely to be harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search
engines, etc.
I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years, I've
heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital publication
without adequately considering the negative consequences of what they are
advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard from time to time
that TSA publish its membership list information electronically, perhaps by
placing it on a web site. This might be cheap and convenient for TSA to
implement and for TSA members to use, but it also could make our personal
information much more vulnerable to automated harvesting by those who would use
it in ways we never intended. Once our email addresses, cell phone numbers,
etc. have been harvested from a digitally published list, there would be no
cheap and convenient way to undo the damage. How can we be confident that the
continuing push towards digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill
considered digital publication of email addresses
and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
are very much appreciated.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
<texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
messages per WEEK.
Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA
for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
fair or reasonable.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
Rod,
My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure
what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
Bill
----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
reminds me of a related issue:
Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,
where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard
from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
publication of email addresses
and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
Rod
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't anyone forget that you can download your digital TEXAS CAVER file onto
your memory stick, take it to Kinkos or Office Depot and have it color laser
printed HARD COPY just like the editor does and save the TSA all that
postage and printing cost--and save the editor a lot of mental and physical
hassle. It's the best of both worlds.
--Ediger
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
> Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
> that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
> issues.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need some feedback on the following two cavers. I can find info from Social
Security Death records but I need a little more to go by. These are some names
I got with nothing to back up the claims of their passing.
Where were they living at time of death?
What was the year they died?
----------------------------------------------------------
Harvey R. Jackson, of Corpus Christi, NSS 3656
Donald L. Widener, of Dallas, NSS 3224
----------------------------------------------------------
Ron Miller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe the problem with the bulk rate has been that we are not sending
out enough copies to get the bulk rate. The truth is, also, that print
media is in decline. I believe that it is probably time to revisit the
two-tier membership option and gradually phase that in. As much as one may
approve or disapprove, even libraries are moving away from print in many
instances.
As to the function and usefulness of the TSA, it provides a strong link and
access to the greater caving community, especially the NSS. The TSA goes
through phases of being, and sometimes is more active than others. But it
fills a niche that no other organization does. It is an access point for
new cavers, and the spring convention is a great event, especially providing
a venue for news on exploration and scientific research.
Continuity and institutional memory have been the greatest problems for the
TSA, and no solution has really solved that. So the TSA wrestles with the
same problems over and over again. Many organizations do the same, though.
TSA officers often go on to be major contributors in other caving
organizations, and they also look back and discuss all the ways TSA could
"do it better." But they are not doing it, and are usually not willing to
be a TSA officer again or to be a major "actor" in the TSA.
So be it. Cheers to the TSA officers, members, and all the dedicated
writers and editors of the Texas Caver.
Keep up the good work.
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 7:39 AM
To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com; TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print
I'm in the process of pursuing the bulk mail rate/permit for us, Logan, as I
plan on continuing to do the newsletter for the foreseeable future.
(Sorry to tell y'all that!)
I'll let the membership know how it's proceeding in January, but, I'm not
stepping foot in the post office until after Christmas!
Good point about the back issues,
Anyway you or Lee Jay could bring ~12 of the recent issues to the winter
meeting at CBSP?
A certain vivacious Vice-Chair Elect is hounding me to get her some back
issues!
Thanks,
Mark
_____
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 7:21 PM
To: 'TexasCavers'
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Digital vs. Print
I am one of those antiquated bibliophiles who prefers a hard copy of The
Texas Caver, but I certainly support the use of electronic copies for all
that prefer them. I would be willing to pay the extra cost of printed
issues.
Questions for Mark: What happened to using the Bulk Mailing Rate? I assume
it requires a minimum number of copies, and perhaps we don't meet that? I
like the color photos, but how much do they add to the cost of printing
compared to the same photos in B&W? Just curious; I'm not advocating all
B&W.
Logan
(Caretaker of approximately 20,000 back issues of The Texas Caver owned by
TSA, most of which are not available electronically, but can be yours for
about 25 to 50 cents each. A treasure trove of maps, photos, trip reports,
etc.; buy now before they're all gone!)
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