texascavers Digest 14 Dec 2009 19:14:44 -0000 Issue 914
Topics (messages 12948 through 12958):
Electronic media
12948 by: Geary Schindel
12950 by: mminton.caver.net
Re: Please Become a Digital Online Member
12949 by: Fritz Holt
12951 by: Fritz Holt
12953 by: Karen Perry
12958 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Re: Electronic in the Sky-"CAVER JIM"
12952 by: Fritz Holt
Re: Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only
12954 by: John Greer
TSA this and that
12955 by: Mixon Bill
Re: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections
12956 by: Mixon Bill
Re: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight
12957 by: Kip Baumann
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--- Begin Message ---
There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media that folks
are still wrestling with.
This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but many
professional journals are going on line and are only available through a
subscription service. If a college or university subscribed to a journal in
print form, it would become part of their collection and available as a hard
copy to anyone that wanted to view it. However, now that some journals are
only available on line through a subscription, they are only available if you
pay for the service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each
year to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose which ones
you want - you have to buy their package. And if you don't renew, you lose
access to all the journals, not just the year you didn't buy.
In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be honest,
this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I do know that I can't
read the disc containing my Thesis because I wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word
star program. The only surviving copies are paper (not that it was that
important a work). However books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming
they are printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings.
The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its head as we
change media type. Search engines are very powerful and have greatly added in
doing research. The flip side is that it could, in theory, disappear overnight.
FYI,
Geary
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geary brings up interesting points about libraries going to
digital journal subscriptions. I have seen this as a potential
problem ever since it first occurred since it directly affected my
profession (chemist). There are a few journals that allow an
institution to keep access to their past subscribed volumes even if
they stop subscribing, but most do not and thus as Geary said, the
library ends up with no collection if they ever stop. That seems
patently unfair and I'm surprised libraries have agreed to those terms.
Another problem is that when the library suffers a power
failure or worse, when the journal's server goes down, no one has
access to their material. At least with a paper copy you could read
it with a flashlight during a power failure. I often made printed
copies of articles because I would need to take the paper to the lab
in order to follow a procedure, but of course I would do that with
print journals as well.
Mark Minton
Quoting Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>:
There appear to be a number of problems with the electronic media
that folks are still wrestling with.
This is really more an issue for university libraries and such but
many professional journals are going on line and are only available
through a subscription service. If a college or university
subscribed to a journal in print form, it would become part of their
collection and available as a hard copy to anyone that wanted to
view it. However, now that some journals are only available on line
through a subscription, they are only available if you pay for the
service. Some schools spend $100,000 or more to subscribe each year
to the journal services and most won't let you pick and choose
which ones you want - you have to buy their package. And if you
don't renew, you lose access to all the journals, not just the year
you didn't buy.
In addition, we assume that the electronic media is secure but to be
honest, this technology is fairly new and relatively untested. I
do know that I can't read the disc containing my Thesis because I
wrote it on a TRS 80 using a word star program. The only surviving
copies are paper (not that it was that important a work). However
books have survived for hundreds of years (assuming they are
printed on good paper) and minus a few book burnings.
The world of research, and library science, is being turned on its
head as we change media type. Search engines are very powerful and
have greatly added in doing research. The flip side is that it
could, in theory, disappear overnight.
FYI,
Geary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe,
I enjoyed reading this post about the various projects of the state's caving
groups, past and present. As I have done before on this subject, I will take
this opportunity to inject my two cents. The enjoyment I get from receiving
(electronically) and reading The Caver is itself worth the dues paid. But, this
is greatly overshadowed by the personal enjoyment of the camaraderie at events
and gatherings with cavers who for the most part are TSA members. The good
times had at these events would not be possible without the planning and hard
work of the officers of TSA, TCMA and the volunteers of these groups. VIVA TSA!
Fritz
________________________________
From: jran...@gmail.com [mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 10:31 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Hey Mark -
In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been
the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto
officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work
and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and
have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting
right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring
Convention when I responded to her email.
The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique
things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same
issue I struggled with when I was an officer.
*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were
the only one I bet it would grow.
*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is
explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially
on more than one occasion.
*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94
convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because
it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.
*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto
put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor
working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.
*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA,
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS?
The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The Austin group is working a
huge cave ranch near spring branch. etc.
*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
affiliated with TSA.
*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to
contributed.
I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with
a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing
and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.
Joe
On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>
> Some of the other items the
> TSA has supported:
>
>
>
>
>
> * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their
> White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.
>
>
>
> * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot
> of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.
>
>
>
> * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the
> payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.
>
>
>
>
>
> Plus, many other smaller projects that are
> listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
>
>
>
>
>
> (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you
> would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present when we
> conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^(>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lyndon Tiu
> [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
> Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
> To:
> texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a
> Digital Online Member
>
>
>
>
>
> ellie :) wrote:
> > The TSA membership fees cover much
> more than the cost of The Caver
>
> Joe Ranzau wrote:
> >
> Like?
> >
>
> Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the
> ICS, the TSA
> paid for their registration.
>
> --
> Lyndon
> Tiu
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com
> To
> unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional
> commands, e-mail:
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Old cavers never die, they just fade away (but most can still read with a
magnifying glass).
Geezer
-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 6:44 AM
To: ellie :); Cavers Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
ellie :) wrote:
> ... and Lyndon
> can offer memberships when he registers people. People can put their
> email on the registration and opt to make next edition be their first
> digital one.
Yes and I promise not to tell new clueless members they have the option
of getting a hard copy. That way, all new members get electronic copies.
Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all
electronic. Great plan Ellie, you're a genius!
--
Lyndon Tiu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well said. I am in total agreement!!!!!!!!!! For many years now I have refused
to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted
to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I
have found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the
organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of
continual turmol.
TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason
that have been better stated by folks like Mark & Jim. So I say ditto....I want
a hard copy.
Karen
--Joe,
I enjoyed reading this post about the
various projects of the state’s caving groups,
From: jran...@gmail.com
[mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009
10:31 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Texascavers]
Please Become a Digital Online Member
Hey Mark -
In addition to being a current TCMA Board Member and Officer I have also been
the TSA Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary and served in multiple grotto
officer positions. I am not trying to attack or discredit anyone's hard work
and certaily not shock and dismay anyone. I appreciate what everyone does and
have done much more shocking things than a one word email. I was also sitting
right beside Ellie on a couch discussing options for things to do at Spring
Convention when I responded to her email.
The Items you mentioned are quite good but I can't help but wonder what unique
things the TSA provides me besides a great caving magazine? This is the same
issue I struggled with when I was an officer.
*TCC is bailing out the convention and honestly replicates it at their big
winter event with talks and caving. Might not be quite as good but if it were
the only one I bet it would grow.
*TCR throws one hell of a party without politics or much TSA support (aside
from running registration so TSA can gather memberships). I do believe TCR is
explicitly prohibited from merging with TSA and has bailed TSA out financially
on more than one occasion.
*The land fund donation to TCMA came from NSS seed money from hosting the 94
convention. The TSA decided it would make a nice contribution to TCMA because
it was not growing much under TSA and was a bit of a hassle.
*It was quite nice of TSA to help refurbish the Honey Creek shaft. Our grotto
put it in during the 80's and many grottos donate money to keep the tractor
working and maintain the ranch. It helps but is not unique.
*TSA projects exist nicely on their own. CBSP would continue without TSA,
probably in a different form. The new Amistad project is run through the TSS?
The Rancho Diana project in SA is just one caver. The
Austin group is working a huge cave ranch
near spring branch. etc.
*TexasCavers.com and CaveTex before it seemed to take pride in not being
affiliated with TSA.
*The NSS runs the WNS fund and many grottos including several I belong to
contributed.
I'm not sure what unique benefit the TSA provides me other than a magazine with
a membership and fellowship opportunities. This is not necessarily a bad thing
and thankfully for everyone is just my two cents.
Joe
On Dec 14, 2009 7:16am, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>
> Some of the other items the
> TSA has supported:
>
>
>
>
>
> * A sizeable donation to the NSS for their
> White Nose Syndrome Rapid Response Effort.
>
>
>
> * Purchase and refurbishment of quite a lot
> of survey equipment used around the state for various projects.
>
>
>
> * A huge donation to the TCMA towards the
> payoff of the Punkin and Deep cave purchase.
>
>
>
>
>
> Plus, many other smaller projects that are
> listed in the TSA Meeting minutes.
>
>
>
>
>
> (Joe, I'm rather shocked and dismayed you
> would ask this. You're a board member of the TCMA and were present
when we
> conducted the votes on all of the above items). 8^(>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lyndon Tiu
> [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
> Sent: Sun 12/13/2009 5:50 PM
> To:
> texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Please Become a
> Digital Online Member
>
>
>
>
>
> ellie :) wrote:
> > The TSA membership fees cover much
> more than the cost of The Caver
>
> Joe Ranzau wrote:
> >
> Like?
> >
>
> Sending a few deserving cavers from other countries to the
> ICS, the TSA
> paid for their registration.
>
> --
> Lyndon
> Tiu
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com
> To
> unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional
> commands, e-mail:
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome back, Karen!
Now, if we could only get Ediger to rejoin!
There's no more turmoil than normal going on.
I just had to throw a rock at the hornets nest last week with my tales of woe,
as it was too quiet and I was feeling the creative juices flowing, thanks in
part to having completed reading Kinky Friedman's Guide To Texas Etiquette and
currently reading another of his books, Spanking Watson.
Plus, we needed to publicize the TSA Winter meeting next month (Sunday, January
10th at 9 AM at the Conference Center at CBSP).
So you all have played into my diabolical plan!
The hard copy of the TC won't be going away, as there's too much interest in
keeping it and several of our college subscribers want it that way.
Two-tiered or not two-tiered, I see that as being the question.
Come to CBSP in January to see how that pans out.
We need and appreciate every caver, even the ones of varying and differing
opinions!
Later,
Mark
________________________________
From: Karen Perry [mailto:txcavem...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 12/14/2009 12:47 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: RE: [Texascavers] Please Become a Digital Online Member
Well said. I am in total agreement!!!!!!!!!! For many years now I have refused
to rejoin TSA due to several issues.I moved to NM in April this year and wanted
to keep in touch with Texas caving so I recently re-upped my membership. What I
have found is once again differences of opinion causing conflict within the
organization. It almost seems as though TSA is cursed with some kind of
continual turmol.
TSA should and NEEDS to keep hard copies of the Caver for many excellent reason
that have been better stated by folks like Mark & Jim. So I say ditto....I want
a hard copy.
Karen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't remind me, but it is a nice poem.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: Preston Forsythe [mailto:pns_...@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:16 AM
To: Cavers Texas; ellie :); Lyndon Tiu
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Electronic in the Sky-"CAVER JIM"
> Once all existing members die, the Texas Caver will become all electronic.
> Great plan Ellie, you're a genius!
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
-------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another adaptation of an old KY-Illinois coal miner poem put to
caving. With apologies to Vachel who wrote, "Miner Jim," and Bobby who
published the poem.
Caver Jim
1970:
Caver Jim, you know him,
Tall and straight, body strong;
Before the dawn, he'll be gone,
To walk four miles, cave all day long.
1980:
Caver Jim, you know him,
Day's caving now takes its toll;
Step much slower, head hangs lower,
After a day of caving.
1990:
Caver Jim, you know him,
It's time he faced the truth:
What he can't do, a young man can;
Those days have claimed his youth.
2000:
Caver Jim, you know him,
'Fore they took him away;
Caver Jim, you knew him;
They buried him today.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Happy Caving Holidays,
Preston in Outer Browder, KY
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(reply copy to cavers, in case anyone else is interested, such as for recon
work).
Linda,
The Bosch is good for short stuff, up to 160' or so.
The Disto is interesting and accurate. I still have mine and don't use it
because of its size -- I'm certainly willing to sell it for really cheap
(case, attachments, and all), if anyone's interested. It's just too big,
heavy, difficult to use, and of course is (was) really expensive. For long
boreholes it can't be beat, as long as you have plenty of porters carrying
equipment. Otherwise, take shorter readings.
We previously used a Bushnell Yardage Pro 400 (20-400 yds) and liked it, but
alas, it's hiding somewhere in the field trying to become fertilizer or a
historic artifact. We replaced that with the Bushnell Yardage Pro 1000
(20-1000 yds) and like it very much. Accuracy is about +/- 18". It's now our
long-distance backup.
So, we now use a Bushnell Yardage Pro Scout, a much smaller, uni-ocular (if
that's a word, monocular?) unit that practically fits in your pocket (not a
T-shirt), with a range of 10-700 yds. I see now that Amazon has lots of
different Yardage Pro's, mostly around $240 (a fraction of a Disto), but you
can check the Bushnell site for details.
The Bushnell Scout is essentially all I use now, even for rough interior
mapping of archeological sites (+/- 18" is okay for rough mapping of 40
acres worth of tipi rings). For caving, these things would be used for
reconnaissance, not detailed cave mapping (which is why God invented the
Bosch unit).
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Palit
To: 'John Greer'
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only
What about longer range ? or what do you mean by short range.
I ordered one, and no gripes with the great price. I just wanted the
benefit of your testing.
I’ve used a disto for long distances in big straight caves with great
results, and just comparing.
Thanks.
Linda
From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 5:45 PM
To: 'texascavers list'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sale on Digital Laser Range Finder - Today only
For those who don't have info on the Bosch DLR165K -- BoschTools.com -- see
below (if it comes through).
We've tried several but still like these best for short range.
Looking around the web, it appears that Amazon (Prime=no shipping charge) is
a great price = 64.99.
** Look at WarehouseDeals.com (Amazon) -- 60.99 + free shipping. Listed as
"used" because of minor box damage. New unit. (good description too).
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some people just need a better e-mail service. My e-mail addresses are
all over the place, and I get about two spam messages a week. If you
insist on running your own server, you could still use some other
place for your e-mail address that has a decent spam filter. And I
wouldn't worry about your e-mail address being on the TSA web site,
password-protected or not. At least one of your friends probably has
something infecting his computer that has sent off his address book to
someplace in Russia or Nigeria anyway.
Fine with me if the TSA wants to have different dues depending on how
one receives the Texas Caver. But the question should be how large a
discount you get if you don't want a paper copy, not how much more you
pay for one.--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forwarded by Mixon:
Begin forwarded message:
From: ICS 2009 eList <secret...@ics2009.us>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: December 13, 2009 8:57:15 PM CST
To: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
Subject: 15th ICS - proceedings corrections
Dear Friends,
Last month I wrote that the proceedings of the 15th International
Congress of Speleology (ICS) were posted as three PDFs on the Karst
Information Portal (KIP) at http://www.lib.usf.edu/karst-test/SPT--BrowseResources.php?ParentId=367
We have received some corrections to the proceedings and they are now
listed in some Errata pages near the front of the three volumes. We
apologize for any errors we missed or accidentally caused. Remember,
the files for each of the three volumes are large: 86, 154, and 156 Mb.
Also as a reminder, you can buy printed copies of the ICS proceedings,
guidebook, and other publications from the NSS Bookstore at http://nssbookstore.org/index.php?mode=store&submode=showitem&itemnumber=04-0106-2378
at a 20% discount until 31 December 2009.
George
George Veni, Ph.D.
Chairman, 15th International Congress of Speleology
Vice President of Administration, International Union of Speleology
Executive Director, U.S. National Cave and Karst Research Institute
----
You have received this message because you are subscribed to the 2009
ICS eList. To unsubscribe, please visit:
http://ics2009mail.nfshost.com/pommo/user/
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Thanks for the link, but that's old news because you already sent the same info
nearly 2 years ago.
I prefer this LED light which should last a bit longer:
http://elektrolumen s.com/FireSword/ FireSword- IV.html
-Kip
From: Lee H. Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net>
To: Cave Diggers <cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, January 28, 2008 2:37:18 PM
Subject: [CaveDiggers] World's brightest and most powerful flashlight
See articles about The Torch at:
http://www.i4u. com/article14324 .html
and
http://www.engadget .com/2008/ 01/28/the- torch-why- illuminate- when-you-
can-incinerate/
________________________________
From: Lee H. Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net>
To: Cave Diggers <cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com>; texascavers list
<texascavers@texascavers.com>; nmcaver list <nmca...@caver.net>; Internal
Communications of the Sandia Grotto <sandiagro...@caver.net>
Sent: Mon, December 14, 2009 7:57:20 AM
Subject: [NMCAVER] World's most powerful flaslight
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/cd85/?cpg=120H
_______________________________________________
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
--- End Message ---
