texascavers Digest 15 Dec 2009 20:23:49 -0000 Issue 918
Topics (messages 12992 through 13004):
mala mujer
12992 by: Nancy Weaver
Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
12993 by: Charles Goldsmith
12996 by: Sheryl Rieck
12998 by: Charles Goldsmith
13004 by: Rod Goke
NSS members in Austin
12994 by: Mixon Bill
13003 by: Gill Edigar
all-electronic Texas Caver
12995 by: Mixon Bill
12997 by: Charles Goldsmith
12999 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
Next point of order...TSA 2010 Spring Convention website is up!
13000 by: ellie :)
13001 by: Terry Holsinger
TSA and TCMA Winter Business Meetings at Colorado Bend, Sunday, January 10th!
13002 by: ellie :)
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
This may be of some interest to those cavers who used to visit the El
Abra - its an exchange about mala mujer with the amazing naturalist
Jim Conrad who lives parttime in Mexico ( his very worthwhile
newsletter available free! digitally!! at
naturalist_newslet...@backyardnature.net - thank you Mixon for
turning me onto this)
COW-ITCH
Here and there in the forest where it's particularly
protected from the sun and wind -- where it's moist
and shadowy -- you find shrubs or small trees with
thick, brittle branches and broad, veiny, shallowly
sawtooth-margined leaves, such as is shown at
wonder how this relates to the shrub/tree we called mala mujer in the
arid impenetrable scrub forest of northern mexico - the long narrow
El Abra range on the east coast south of Mante? We were up there to
chop our way to the various big pits that had been sighted by small
plane - and distressingly found - when we would come back the next
season, that our path had been taken over by mala mujer, an intensely
reactive nettle plant which advantageously took the tiny amount of
sunlight we opened up.
No, this Cow Itch is in the Nettle Family while Mala Mujer, which stings
just like it, is in the Euphorb or Poinsettia Family. I've seen another
name for it,though, Mala Hombre, so you're not the first to see a
similarity in the stings.
and for those of you who enjoy caving reminiscences:
The pits were well worth the effort. One that involved a 3 day chop
opened up on a 100foot diameter 60 foot deep wonderland where dozens
of pairs of military macaws resided. We simply sat (we had no rope
with us that day) and observed them flying about from above for a
timeless spell. The El Abra has no water and no resources desired by
the locals who live below and is almost completely left alone by
humans. It is so impenetrable that to even step a few feet off the
trail we chopped and flagged was to invite being lost for days as one
caver famously discovered. In his 3 days of wandering increasingly
deliriously he drank water from bromeliads and encountered a jaguar
in a long eye locked moment in a twilight opening. Afew years
earlier, the cavers stumbled across some very lost locals who had
come up to hunt and returned them to their village, where a major
fiesta was held in our honor and to celebrate their resurrection. In
all the years we spent exploring there, we met only one local who
offered to *guide* us to a pit he had been to, years back. He
arrived while we were having coffee and with one of our volunteers
took off at breakneck speed thru the jungle (there must be a word for
arid jungle, but I cant think of it) periodically flagging, while the
rest of us crashed along behind enlarging the path. He led us
straight to the pit in about 4 hours- well, as straight as one can go
when the ground is extremely solutioned with ravines, leg breaking
holes in the pinnacley karst covered in slippery entangling vines
groundcover shrubs and trees. A major feat of dead reckoning and
memory and perhaps some other sense most of us no longer have access
to.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360
people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who
posted an email to this list.
Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
will be available on the front page.
Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA
> membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think that
> Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
> don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>
> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our
> email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already has
> placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on its
> password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make
> online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these things
> necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email addresses
> when considered separately (although I still would rather not have my email
> address on even a members-only password protected online list). When both of
> these things are considered together, however, along with all the other
> turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is easy to imagine how
> people might provide their email addresses to TSA assuming one seemingly
> responsible privacy policy, only to discover later that TSA has changed its
> mind and has made the email address list more widely accessible than people
> had expected when they provided their addresses.
>
> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted people
> to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling us "don't
> worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply would make a
> commitment to its members that no member's email address will be included in
> any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for inclusion in the
> list. TSA members need to be able to register for website access without
> having their email addresses published in an online list.
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
>>are very much appreciated.
>>
>>Bill
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>
>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
>>> messages per WEEK.
>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA
>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Rod,
>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure
>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>
>>>
>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>
>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>
>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,
>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>
>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard
>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
>>> publication of email addresses
>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For goodness sake! You should all go Google yourselves! ;-) Do you
all complain this much when your snail mail address is sold and you receive
50lbs worth of junk mail each month?
Sheryl (writing down all these email addresses so I can sell them. I
need some cash.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:48 AM
To: Rod Goke
Cc: Bill Bentley; John Brooks; Mark Alman; TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over
360
people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of
who
posted an email to this list.
Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section,
it
will be available on the front page.
Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my
TSA membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think
that Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>
> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to
handle our email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA
already has placed an online listing of its electronically registered
members on its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent
proposal to make online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers.
Neither of these things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA
members' email addresses when considered separately (although I still would
rather not have my email address on even a members-only password protected
online list). When both of these things are considered together, however,
along with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it
is easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA
assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later
that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list more
widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their
addresses.
>
> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I
wanted people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just
telling us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA
simply would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address
will be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in"
for inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for
website access without having their email addresses published in an online
list.
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was
just
>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from
volunteers who
>>are very much appreciated.
>>
>>Bill
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>
>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk
mail
>>> messages per WEEK.
>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly
condemning the TSA
>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault
for......hardly seems
>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Rod,
>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every
2 to 3
>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a
spam
>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps
me figure
>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a
lot of
>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are
advertisng the
>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I
feel that
>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer,
since you can
>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A
lot of
>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but
buried in
>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke"
<rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>
>>>
>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas
Caver
>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>
>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>
>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the
membership
>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During
this
>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address
(along with
>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for
publication in
>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my
email
>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with
TSA? The
>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in
paper form,
>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not
likely to be
>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>
>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for
years,
>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of
digital
>>> publication without adequately considering the negative
consequences of
>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal
I've heard
>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list
information
>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might
be cheap
>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use,
but it
>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to
automated
>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended.
Once our
>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested
from a
>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient
way to
>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push
towards
>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered
digital
>>> publication of email addresses
>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sheryl, I already have the list, I'll send it to you, we'll split the cash :)
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Sheryl Rieck <shri...@cableone.net> wrote:
> For goodness sake! You should all go Google yourselves! ;-) Do you
> all complain this much when your snail mail address is sold and you receive
> 50lbs worth of junk mail each month?
>
> Sheryl (writing down all these email addresses so I can sell them. I
> need some cash.)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 9:48 AM
> To: Rod Goke
> Cc: Bill Bentley; John Brooks; Mark Alman; TexasCavers
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
> Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over
> 360
> people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
> harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of
> who
> posted an email to this list.
>
> Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
> one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
> people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
>
> If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section,
> it
> will be available on the front page.
>
> Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
> press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
>
> Charles
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my
> TSA membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think
> that Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
> don't even have my email address? ;-) )
> >
> > I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to
> handle our email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA
> already has placed an online listing of its electronically registered
> members on its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent
> proposal to make online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers.
> Neither of these things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA
> members' email addresses when considered separately (although I still would
> rather not have my email address on even a members-only password protected
> online list). When both of these things are considered together, however,
> along with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it
> is easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA
> assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later
> that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list more
> widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their
> addresses.
> >
> > I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I
> wanted people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just
> telling us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA
> simply would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address
> will be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in"
> for inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for
> website access without having their email addresses published in an online
> list.
> >
> > Rod
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
> >>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
> >>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
> >>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
> >>
> >>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was
> just
> >>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
> >>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from
> volunteers who
> >>are very much appreciated.
> >>
> >>Bill
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
> >>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
> >>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
> >><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
> >>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
> >>
> >>
> >>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk
> mail
> >>> messages per WEEK.
> >>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly
> condemning the TSA
> >>> for something they are not doing or really at fault
> for......hardly seems
> >>> fair or reasonable.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Rod,
> >>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every
> 2 to 3
> >>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a
> spam
> >>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps
> me figure
> >>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a
> lot of
> >>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are
> advertisng the
> >>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I
> feel that
> >>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer,
> since you can
> >>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A
> lot of
> >>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but
> buried in
> >>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
> >>>
> >>> Bill
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke"
> <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
> >>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> >>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
> >>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas
> Caver
> >>> reminds me of a related issue:
> >>>
> >>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
> >>>
> >>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the
> membership
> >>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During
> this
> >>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address
> (along with
> >>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for
> publication in
> >>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my
> email
> >>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with
> TSA? The
> >>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in
> paper form,
> >>> where email addresses and other personal information is not
> likely to be
> >>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
> >>>
> >>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for
> years,
> >>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of
> digital
> >>> publication without adequately considering the negative
> consequences of
> >>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal
> I've heard
> >>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list
> information
> >>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might
> be cheap
> >>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use,
> but it
> >>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to
> automated
> >>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended.
> Once our
> >>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested
> from a
> >>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient
> way to
> >>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push
> towards
> >>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered
> digital
> >>> publication of email addresses
> >>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
> >>>
> >>> Rod
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles,
Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal attacks are
totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email addresses
will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone. Whenever you or I
or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we understand that our email
addresses will be visible to others on the list, and we choose to do that.
Harvesting email addresses one at a time from postings to this list as you
suggested would be possible, of course, but it would be a slow and inconvenient
way to collect a large list for spam, and I don't think either of us is
seriously worried about that.
The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving organizations will
deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some people
downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it where
spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the downloaded
files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other information that writers of
the malware wish to harvest. This is something that easily can happen, and when
it does, the person making information available to the malware might be
totally unaware of what is going on. When people download individual email
messages or other data items containing only a few email addresses or other
sensitive items, then only those few items are vulnerable to harvesting by
malware in any one incident. When people download an entire mailing list,
however, then just one incident on one inadvertently infected computer can
result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people download the list to
many different computers, the risk to everyone on the list increases
accordingly.
So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to download
that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers will continue to
be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I haven't noticed any
demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard and read about the TSA's
online data resources, however, create much more uncertainty about how they
will be managed. This is why it is important to have serious discussions of the
issues beforehand to prevent problems, especially when some of them could be
prevented so easily with a few minor policy decisions.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM
>To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>Cc: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>, John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>,
>Mark Alman <mark.al...@l-3com.com>, TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>
>Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360
>people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
>harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who
>posted an email to this list.
>
>Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
>one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
>people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
>
>If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
>will be available on the front page.
>
>Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
>press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
>
>Charles
>
>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA
>> membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think that
>> Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
>> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
>> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
>> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
>> don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>>
>> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our
>> email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already
>> has placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on its
>> password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make
>> online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these
>> things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email
>> addresses when considered separately (although I still would rather not have
>> my email address on even a members-only password protected online list).
>> When both of these things are considered together, however, along with all
>> the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is easy to
>> imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA assuming one
>> seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later that TSA has
>> changed its mind and has made the email address list more widely accessible
>> than people had expected when they provided their addresses.
>>
>> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted people
>> to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling us
>> "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply
>> would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address will
>> be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for
>> inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for website
>> access without having their email addresses published in an online list.
>>
>> Rod
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>
>>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
>>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
>>>are very much appreciated.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
>>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>
>>>
>>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
>>>> messages per WEEK.
>>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA
>>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
>>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Rod,
>>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
>>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
>>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure
>>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
>>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
>>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
>>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
>>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
>>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
>>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
>>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>>
>>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>>
>>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
>>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
>>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
>>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
>>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
>>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
>>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,
>>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
>>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
>>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
>>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
>>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard
>>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
>>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
>>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
>>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
>>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
>>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
>>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
>>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
>>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
>>>> publication of email addresses
>>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>>
>>>> Rod
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
months late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership on
pages 65-67, worth calling to your attention, because I suspect most
members never look at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of the
book. Among other things, 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten three-digit
ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92 NSS members. Top in the list is 300xx,
with 220. That would be Atlanta and vicinity. (300 seems to cover a
lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the 787 addresses are actually
Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed the UT Grotto as their
"primary affiliation.". This is for purposes of allocating votes in
the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions, although so far as I know
the UTG has never participated in living memory. There are twelve NSS
groups with more NSS members than UTG (the Cave Diving Section has
1,022!), but many of them require NSS membership of their members. The
lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS member is 509. Texas is among the top
ten states, with 488 NSS members.
This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it
relatively easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be
contacted with information about the club. One thing I was struck by
when looking through Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I
don't recognize. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize the
faces; there is unfortunately little opportunity to learn peoples'
names at meetings of fifty or events of four hundred. I'm bad about
remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey Mouse, but....
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mixon--
Philosophically speaking: Did you check to see how many of those 488 Texas
NSS members were among the fewer than 200 TSA members? Did you wonder why or
why not? How many do you think would subscribe to a free digital TEXAS
CAVER? And then be willing to join TSA afterwards? Maybe a hundred, huh?
Might be worth trying even if they just got 50, huh? Would that be good for
The CAVER? Would that be good for the TSA? Would that be good for Texas
caving? Would that be good for me or you?
--Ediger
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five months
> late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership on pages 65-67,
> worth calling to your attention, because I suspect most members never look
> at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of the book. Among other things,
> 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten three-digit ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92
> NSS members. Top in the list is 300xx, with 220. That would be Atlanta and
> vicinity. (300 seems to cover a lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the
> 787 addresses are actually Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed the
> UT Grotto as their "primary affiliation.". This is for purposes of
> allocating votes in the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions, although so
> far as I know the UTG has never participated in living memory. There are
> twelve NSS groups with more NSS members than UTG (the Cave Diving Section
> has 1,022!), but many of them require NSS membership of their members. The
> lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS member is 509. Texas is among the top ten
> states, with 488 NSS members.
>
> This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it relatively
> easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be contacted with
> information about the club. One thing I was struck by when looking through
> Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I don't recognize. Of course,
> that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize the faces; there is unfortunately
> little opportunity to learn peoples' names at meetings of fifty or events of
> four hundred. I'm bad about remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey
> Mouse, but....
> --Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I'm in favor of paper copies of the Texas Caver as it presently
exists, it is worth pointing out some advantages of going the route of
making it _completely_ on the Web, with no paper distribution at all.
1) There would be virtually no costs in money of publishing.
2) Therefore it could be made freely available on the TSA Web site, as
Gill suggests, without messing with things like passwords. Since the
TC doesn't publish exact locations of wild caves anyway, I don't see
any reason to hide its contents, except the possible problem of
inviting non-cavers to TCR. (The editor might have to be careful not
to print things that might be misunderstood by non-members, though.)
3) It would be easier on the editor, not only saving the effort of
arranging printing and mailing, but also the nuisance of keeping each
issue a multiple of 4 pages.
4) It could be entirely in color at no extra cost. (But don't use
color gratuitously in ways that wouldn't work well in a black-and-
white printout--much cheaper than color, at least on laser printers.)
5) It could appear at a higher frequency at no extra cost, since the
covers wouldn't cost TSA any more than any other page and there
wouldn't be any binding or mailing expenses. Monthly six-page issues
would be little more work and no more cost than quarterly twenty-four
page issues.
6) It could contain more material at little additional effort and no
additional cost. For example, educational things about cave science or
conservation could be reprinted from other sources to make the TC more
of an educational resource. Even more photos. Maybe more of those book
reviews that somebody keeps posting on this e-mail list...
I could, of course, come up with a similar list of disadvantages.
Nevertheless, if such a scheme resulted in a larger, more frequent,
and more informative Texas Caver, I'd be in favor of it. What I don't
see the point of is published a paper magazine and then trying to talk
people out of getting a paper copy, not taking any real advantage of
Web publishing and saving just part of the cost.--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where
registered members present can vote for a majority.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> While I'm in favor of paper copies of the Texas Caver as it presently
> exists, it is worth pointing out some advantages of going the route of
> making it _completely_ on the Web, with no paper distribution at all.
>
> 1) There would be virtually no costs in money of publishing.
> 2) Therefore it could be made freely available on the TSA Web site, as Gill
> suggests, without messing with things like passwords. Since the TC doesn't
> publish exact locations of wild caves anyway, I don't see any reason to hide
> its contents, except the possible problem of inviting non-cavers to TCR.
> (The editor might have to be careful not to print things that might be
> misunderstood by non-members, though.)
> 3) It would be easier on the editor, not only saving the effort of arranging
> printing and mailing, but also the nuisance of keeping each issue a multiple
> of 4 pages.
> 4) It could be entirely in color at no extra cost. (But don't use color
> gratuitously in ways that wouldn't work well in a black-and-white
> printout--much cheaper than color, at least on laser printers.)
> 5) It could appear at a higher frequency at no extra cost, since the covers
> wouldn't cost TSA any more than any other page and there wouldn't be any
> binding or mailing expenses. Monthly six-page issues would be little more
> work and no more cost than quarterly twenty-four page issues.
> 6) It could contain more material at little additional effort and no
> additional cost. For example, educational things about cave science or
> conservation could be reprinted from other sources to make the TC more of an
> educational resource. Even more photos. Maybe more of those book reviews
> that somebody keeps posting on this e-mail list...
>
> I could, of course, come up with a similar list of disadvantages.
> Nevertheless, if such a scheme resulted in a larger, more frequent, and more
> informative Texas Caver, I'd be in favor of it. What I don't see the point
> of is published a paper magazine and then trying to talk people out of
> getting a paper copy, not taking any real advantage of Web publishing and
> saving just part of the cost.--Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I second, third, and fourth that motion.
See y'all there!
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:41 AM
To: Cavetex
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] all-electronic Texas Caver
I motion to table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver
committee to be discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where
registered members present can vote for a majority.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
wrote:
> While I'm in favor of paper copies of the Texas Caver as it presently
> exists, it is worth pointing out some advantages of going the route of
> making it _completely_ on the Web, with no paper distribution at all.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*TSA 2010 Spring Convention website is up!*
*
*
http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TSASC/tsasc2010.html
Fees: $15.00per person and $40.00 for a family of 3 or more.
Please forward this and all 2010 TSA Spring Convention related announcements
(invitation attached) to your favorite grotto, friends, family, coworkers,
universities, vendors, land owners, cave-related organizations, neighbors,
authors, professors, library, coffee shop, radio station, facebook, twitter,
blog, and all others interested in info on caves and caving who might not be
on this list serve.
You can also visit the facebook event reminder page at:
http://www.facebook.com/settings/?tab=privacy#/event.php?eid=219361835478&ref=share
Thank you to Butch for creating this page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about the winter meeting?
Is there info online or just in emails?
In the Texas Caver just mailed?
Terry H.
ellie :) wrote:
*TSA 2010 Spring Convention website is up!*
*
*
http://www.cavetexas.org/events/TSASC/tsasc2010.html
Fees: $15.00per person and $40.00 for a family of 3 or more.
Please forward this and all 2010 TSA Spring Convention related
announcements (invitation attached) to your favorite grotto, friends,
family, coworkers, universities, vendors, land owners, cave-related
organizations, neighbors, authors, professors, library, coffee shop,
radio station, facebook, twitter, blog, and all others interested in
info on caves and caving who might not be on this list serve.
You can also visit the facebook event reminder page at:
http://www.facebook.com/settings/?tab=privacy#/event.php?eid=219361835478&ref=share
<http://www.facebook.com/settings/?tab=privacy#/event.php?eid=219361835478&ref=share>
Thank you to Butch for creating this page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The TSA and TCMA Winter Business Meetings will be held at the Colorado Bend
State Park Conference Center, on Sunday, January 10th, 2010.
Here's your chance to meet the new TSA officers and hobnob with TCMA
officers and fellow cavers! Come on down the second weekend of January for
the CBSP Caving Project and stick around for the meetings Sunday, at 9am.
Good times will occur and great accommodations are available at the
Conference Center, or you may rough it at the Cavers Camp. Hope to see you
and come lend us your thoughts and ideas to the direction of caving in Texas
in 2010 and beyond!
Information is available on the TSA Calendar at
http://www.cavetexas.org/calendar/index.php and an announcement was made in
this quarters Texas Caver.
Cavingly,
Ellie Watson
--- End Message ---
