Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Michael Ross]

Thanks, Tarquin and Martin,
for the many hints.
I need to digest those first and then apply them,
this will take some time.
 
Cheers, Michael.
___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Martin Sluka via Therion]

> 21. 4. 2021 v 11:41, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion :
> 
>> I have found that stopping the walls on both sides
>> of the passage in a single scrap will upset kml generation.
> 
> Absolutely. I have reproduced the problem on a small scale like this.

This should solve your problem. Anyway, if you will try to imagine such 
situation as missing wall in passage is it is not real. There should be some  
kind off wall to circumscribe passage (emty space) from bedrock.

M.

___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Bruce Mutton]

Hi Michael

As Tarquin mentioned, I have found that stopping the walls on both sides of the 
passage in a single scrap will upset kml generation.

Maybe pictures are clearer.

In the scenarios pictured below you need to create separate scraps each side of 
the gap.  So in your example there should be at least three plan scraps.

Personally I prefer much shorter scraps, I find 250 m to be very long, but 
other than making debugging a little harder, excessive scrap length/size should 
not be a cause of your problems.

 



 



 

Bruce

 

From: Therion  On Behalf Of Michael Ross
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 22:58
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

 

Dear Stacho, Bruce, Martin,

 

Thanks for your replies.

The low hanging fruits have been picked already long time ago:

Yellow ticks checked, outline parms checked, passage fills are displayed 
correctly in PDF.

 

Perhaps it displays differently in GoogleEarth compared to other GIS? (Have not 
yet used OpenGIS or ArcGIS).

 

I think, Stacho is closest to a potential cause.

 

It appears to me that the code path for kml generation is different from the 
codepath for PDF generation

and follows different heuristics.

 

For example, kml generation seems to be agnostic of "outline" parameters and 
direction of yellow sticks.

 

I produced subsections by selecting small maps for the output, the behaviour is 
the same, i.e., no scalability / interdependency problem.

I attach one of the scraps and the resulting map in kml.

 

I cannot easily extract a data sample for replay by you, 

but I'm happy to provide the complete data to anyone who is willing to dive 
into this problem.

 

As already said, a post-processing hint (replacing colours in the kml) would 
also help.

 

Cheers, Michael.

 

 

Von: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] Im Auftrag von Stacho Mudrak
Gesendet: Montag, 19. April 2021 19:25
Cc: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk> >
Betreff: Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

 

Hi Michael,

 

I have found one issue with the current version of Google Earth - it was 
ignoring (not filling) polygons, where the last point was not equal to the 
first point.

 

It is fixed in 
<https://github.com/therion/therion/commit/18eca78edd9dab377a0aa585a61a273d81024afe>
 18eca78, but I am not sure, it if will fix your issues.

 

S.

 

 

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:44, Stacho Mudrak mailto:li...@group-s.sk> > wrote:

Hi Michael,

 

it looks to me like it is some kind of inner/outer ring problem. Are you able 
to isolate and post some minimal sample, where this problem happens? It would 
help a lot.

 

Thanks, S.

 

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:26, Michael Ross mailto:knollesim...@t-online.de> > wrote:

Hello there,

I "own" a fairly large dataset of a maze cave.
Producing PDF output works well,
but when producing kml using

  export map -projection plan  -output Scraps.kml

I get large white blobs where there should be transparency. See attachment.

First assumption was that Therion needs some help by marking certain walls 
"outline in".
But that didn't help.

Then I tried redrawing the walls of the affected passages to get long lines of 
walls rather than 
concatenated short sections of walls, assuming that would help Therion to 
better understand.
Didn't help.

Anyone had this problem so far?

If there is a way to post-process the kml file to remove the white areas, that 
would also help.

Or any other hint to systematically track this down.

Kind Regards,
Michael


___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk <mailto:Therion@speleo.sk> 
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Martin Sluka via Therion]

> 20. 4. 2021 v 12:58, Michael Ross :
> 
> Yellow ticks checked, outline parms checked, passage fills are displayed 
> correctly in PDF.

This is not correct example of section line:



It should be in this way:



Martin___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

Hi Michael,

> but I'm happy to provide the complete data to anyone who is willing to
> dive into this problem.

Certainly I would be happy to help dissecting a survey to work out
what's going wrong. So do share if you are comfortable doing so.

One thing I immediately notice with your survey is that you seem to
expect a scrap to have two outlines, which is not permitted. Near the
southern end - where I see a white overlap in Google Earth due to the
underlying passage - you end one passage, then start a new one on the
far side of the pitch, without starting a new scrap. This happens at the
junction in the north as well.

If you were hoping to have two separate outlines there, then you need
separate scraps. If not, then you are going to get a weird overlap
anyway with the passage above and below both showing at the same time.

In the middle of the scrap, your "-outline in" oxbow also is incomplete
(the part that appears as a huge chamber in KML). Close off the open
passage end with a wall, set to "-outline in -visibility off". I don't
know if that will fix it, but it might.

Further north, you start a passage inside the other passage, which
causes another overlap. That may be correct if the passage does indeed
pop out part way inside the outer wall of the other passage. But if you
want to avoid that overlap, join the scrap walls to each other so that
the passages do not overlap.

The northern-most junction is a mess of overlaps, because you have ended
the passage with it open at each side passage, and none of them extend
through the junction in between. This is not unique to KML. If you
render your cave with a background colour in PDF, you will see the same
problem. One passage needs to "own" the junction. Meaning it must have
an outline that extends fully around the junction (or you can use
horrendous joins and have passages each owning parts of the junction).
Use invisible borders with "-outline out" if you need to, in order to
extend one of the passages through the junction so that it owns the
passage. This particular situation is covered very nicely in Footleg's
tutorial:
http://wscc.darkgem.com/footleg/therion/Therion%20Tutorial%2015thMar2016.pdf
Lesson 9

Does this help fix the problems you are seeing?

Cheers,

Tarquin
___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Martin Sluka via Therion]

Yellow tick indicate “the air”. 

M. 

Odesláno z iPhonu

19. 4. 2021 v 21:52, Bruce Mutton :

> Hi Michael
> Unless Stacho's magic fixes your problem, I would expect that it is most
> likely that the yellow tick marks do not point inside of the passages in all
> cases, or -outline in/out is not set correctly.  Your example image is
> exactly the sort of thing that first time kml users produce.  It is very
> common.
> There should not be any problem with many short wall lines, except that with
> many, there is more opportunity to get a yellow tick or -outline wrong.
> 
> A couple of months ago I encountered a case where ends of two adjacent
> scraps were one above the other, and one of them was well rendered, and the
> other as in your example.  Turned out that both scraps were drawn correctly
> and simply moving one of the end lines a bit fixed the problem.  Have never
> encountered that before as far as I know, and I would expect that this is
> unlikely to be your problem.
> 
> Have a look at
> https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/tips#avoiding_invisible_or_misshapen_scraps_i
> n_loch_and_google_earth It is a bit outdated now, as I think the behaviours
> are different now, but it gives you an idea of what to look out for.
> 
> When troubleshooting this sort of thing, also produce pdf outputs with a
> passage foreground colour.  This can point to problems with gaps between
> scraps and incorrect yellow ticks (interior of passage), but will not
> identify -outline errors (because the pdf generator seems to reliably know
> better than the user!)
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Therion  On Behalf Of Michael Ross
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 02:20
> To: therion@speleo.sk
> Subject: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs
> 
> Hello there,
> 
> I "own" a fairly large dataset of a maze cave.
> Producing PDF output works well,
> but when producing kml using
> 
>  export map -projection plan  -output Scraps.kml
> 
> I get large white blobs where there should be transparency. See attachment.
> 
> First assumption was that Therion needs some help by marking certain walls
> "outline in".
> But that didn't help.
> 
> Then I tried redrawing the walls of the affected passages to get long lines
> of walls rather than concatenated short sections of walls, assuming that
> would help Therion to better understand.
> Didn't help.
> 
> Anyone had this problem so far?
> 
> If there is a way to post-process the kml file to remove the white areas,
> that would also help.
> 
> Or any other hint to systematically track this down.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@speleo.sk
> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

[Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Bruce Mutton]

Hi Michael
Unless Stacho's magic fixes your problem, I would expect that it is most
likely that the yellow tick marks do not point inside of the passages in all
cases, or -outline in/out is not set correctly.  Your example image is
exactly the sort of thing that first time kml users produce.  It is very
common.
There should not be any problem with many short wall lines, except that with
many, there is more opportunity to get a yellow tick or -outline wrong.

A couple of months ago I encountered a case where ends of two adjacent
scraps were one above the other, and one of them was well rendered, and the
other as in your example.  Turned out that both scraps were drawn correctly
and simply moving one of the end lines a bit fixed the problem.  Have never
encountered that before as far as I know, and I would expect that this is
unlikely to be your problem.

Have a look at
https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/tips#avoiding_invisible_or_misshapen_scraps_i
n_loch_and_google_earth It is a bit outdated now, as I think the behaviours
are different now, but it gives you an idea of what to look out for.

When troubleshooting this sort of thing, also produce pdf outputs with a
passage foreground colour.  This can point to problems with gaps between
scraps and incorrect yellow ticks (interior of passage), but will not
identify -outline errors (because the pdf generator seems to reliably know
better than the user!)

Bruce


-Original Message-
From: Therion  On Behalf Of Michael Ross
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 02:20
To: therion@speleo.sk
Subject: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

Hello there,

I "own" a fairly large dataset of a maze cave.
Producing PDF output works well,
but when producing kml using

  export map -projection plan  -output Scraps.kml

I get large white blobs where there should be transparency. See attachment.

First assumption was that Therion needs some help by marking certain walls
"outline in".
But that didn't help.

Then I tried redrawing the walls of the affected passages to get long lines
of walls rather than concatenated short sections of walls, assuming that
would help Therion to better understand.
Didn't help.

Anyone had this problem so far?

If there is a way to post-process the kml file to remove the white areas,
that would also help.

Or any other hint to systematically track this down.

Kind Regards,
Michael



___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Stacho Mudrak]

Hi Michael,

I have found one issue with the current version of Google Earth - it was
ignoring (not filling) polygons, where the last point was not equal to the
first point.

It is fixed in18eca78
,
but I am not sure, it if will fix your issues.

S.


On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:44, Stacho Mudrak  wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> it looks to me like it is some kind of inner/outer ring problem. Are you
> able to isolate and post some minimal sample, where this problem happens?
> It would help a lot.
>
> Thanks, S.
>
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:26, Michael Ross 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello there,
>>
>> I "own" a fairly large dataset of a maze cave.
>> Producing PDF output works well,
>> but when producing kml using
>>
>>   export map -projection plan  -output Scraps.kml
>>
>> I get large white blobs where there should be transparency. See
>> attachment.
>>
>> First assumption was that Therion needs some help by marking certain
>> walls "outline in".
>> But that didn't help.
>>
>> Then I tried redrawing the walls of the affected passages to get long
>> lines of walls rather than
>> concatenated short sections of walls, assuming that would help Therion to
>> better understand.
>> Didn't help.
>>
>> Anyone had this problem so far?
>>
>> If there is a way to post-process the kml file to remove the white areas,
>> that would also help.
>>
>> Or any other hint to systematically track this down.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Therion mailing list
>> Therion@speleo.sk
>> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
>>
>
___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion

Re: [Therion] Need help producing scraps.kml without white blobs

[Stacho Mudrak]

Hi Michael,

it looks to me like it is some kind of inner/outer ring problem. Are you
able to isolate and post some minimal sample, where this problem happens?
It would help a lot.

Thanks, S.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 at 16:26, Michael Ross  wrote:

> Hello there,
>
> I "own" a fairly large dataset of a maze cave.
> Producing PDF output works well,
> but when producing kml using
>
>   export map -projection plan  -output Scraps.kml
>
> I get large white blobs where there should be transparency. See attachment.
>
> First assumption was that Therion needs some help by marking certain walls
> "outline in".
> But that didn't help.
>
> Then I tried redrawing the walls of the affected passages to get long
> lines of walls rather than
> concatenated short sections of walls, assuming that would help Therion to
> better understand.
> Didn't help.
>
> Anyone had this problem so far?
>
> If there is a way to post-process the kml file to remove the white areas,
> that would also help.
>
> Or any other hint to systematically track this down.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Michael
>
>
> ___
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@speleo.sk
> https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion
>
___
Therion mailing list
Therion@speleo.sk
https://mailman.speleo.sk/listinfo/therion