[tw] Re: Overly enthusiastic editing warning, and self-determining scroll bars...
Thanks Tobias. The timeline macro seems to work OK for me, but I'll try moving it into my user folder to see if it helps at all. It does seem XP and IE8 don't like Tiddlywiki, though. Shame, as I use it as my documentation and to do list at work. Cheers, Meromo. On Nov 11, 7:39 pm, Tobias Beer wrote: > Hi Meromo, > > I tried to replicate your problems on Parallels with windows 7 and > ie8. > > When I open a blank Tiddlywiki version 2.6.5 form my desktop in the > virtual environment, I can reproduce the highlighted text issue and I > must confirm it sure is incredibly irritating and annoying. It's like > half the wiki get's selected whenever you either double click to edit > or even when you click the edit button. > > What's more, the timeline macro doesn't seem to work... it gives me an > object error. > > Then, when I tried to save, I realized that I couldn't. So, I thought, > alright ...let's first find a location where it does allow me to save > the wiki. So I moved it into my user folder on my virtual c drive. > Then it saved fine and the editing as well as the timeline errors were > gone! How does that make any sense? > > As for your scrollbar issues or some annoying unsaved-changes-before- > edit message, I couldn't reproduce either. > > Cheers, Tobias. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Error Upgrading Tiddly Wiki from Version 2.2.6
By using ImportTiddlersPlugin from TiddlyTools most of these difficulties importing tiddlers can be easily overcome. Don't even have to install it, just drag it's bookmarklet link from the original TiddlyTools to your bookmarks browser bar, and apply it with the tab of your TW to import into open: http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#InstantBookmarklets -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Split command in QuickEdit does not totally work...
I experience the same with some of my TWs. However, I recently made a test-case of TiddlyTools with the latest 2.6.5 TiddlyWiki version to see which of my favorite plugins have stopped to work properly (really not that many, but the least favorite: where I wont 'getting dizzy already' upon opening this TiddlyTools ;-) And here this subcommand of QuickEditPlugin still unfailingly works. Therefore it certainly isn't a bug with the latest version, but more likely an incompatibility with other present scripts or plugins. The only way to find out which would be disabling step by step everything possibly interfering. Which can be very time consuming (depending on the complexity of the custom TW). At the least ensure you have the latest version of QuickEditPlugin installed. Good luck. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Error Upgrading Tiddly Wiki from Version 2.2.6
I downloaded over three years ago, and didn't realize that it updated over time until today. I went to upgrade my Tiddly Wiki file using the instructions from this article: http://www.tiddlywiki.com/#HowToUpgradeOlderTiddlyWikis When I tried to import my old file into the new one, I got the following error: Error retrieving tiddlers from local file, please make sure the file is in the same directory as your TiddlyWiki. Click Cancel to try again. The problem is that the old file is in the same the new one. I did some research, including searching this group, but I couldn't find anyone with the same problem. I tried the import process using Firefox 8, IE 9 and Chrome and got the same error every time. Let me know if you need more details -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Split command in QuickEdit does not totally work...
Hi, When I use the Split command, sub command 'link', of QuickEdit plugin in NoteStorm it creates a new tiddler, but a) does not create any link in the original b) does not remove the text from the origional I have see some posts from others long ago with this problem, but with no solution offered. Does anyone have some suggestions hot to get it working 'as advertised'? Thanks! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Tiddler-Based-Communication-Protocol
Hi, Chris put some ideas forward for the tiddler definition. I like it, because it is a concrete idea. Some additional thoughts: tiddler has a type field (content type) and maybe also needs a field for the encoding. There is probably need for a field stating the spec revision to which this tiddler conforms (for future upgrades of the tiddler communication protocol) Currently tw has some fields beginning with server. Do we need them? I thing the most important are the definition of uuid fields and their semantics and working together with tw, including the ability to track changes and the history of where the tiddler came from. I think this is non trivial. Ward has done some work on this in his federated wiki project, see: https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/wiki/Federation-Details https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki/wiki/Story-JSON https://github.com/WardCunningham/Smallest-Federated-Wiki Basically his "pages" are equivalent to a tiddler. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Displaying MathML equations in a tiddler
Hi, I have this Math ML xml file that I want to embed in a tiddler to display the equation: http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML";> A B C D How can I do that? How can I specify the xml stylesheet? Milind -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Business Thought [was: Important Message from Eric]
> I believe that one of the simpler causes is that over the last 4 years > the content of the main tiddlywiki site hasn't been actively updated > and managed. As a result of this neglect .. You hit the head of the nail. And what I really wanted to emphasis with my latest response was, how over-important the support here at GoogleGroups became in such a situation. Whenever this support fails, for example if only 1 out of 5 basic questions is answered, that simply isn't very encouraging for every new-comer to stay. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: DeleteListPlugin request [was: 'ViewerPlugin' request]
Really sorry if my last post gave the impression of being too negative (must be 'cos Englisch is only my second language). My intention has rather been to make the best out of this situation by becoming as much as possible creative myself. From my side there really wasn't any negative undertone implyed, since I know out of my own difficulties with earning my daily bread and shelter what that could become to mean. Even that can lead and open up other interesting perspectives and possibilties and certainly isn't solely bad. And I'm really glad if you already now have hope it could work somehow! However, since I really have been showered with you exceptional responsiveness and support a few years ago, and if I compared that to the decreased freqency of your participation here at GoogleGroups since already about 2 years (well before UnaMesa's difficulties) I got the impression that it would be simply not realistic to place my hope on your tireless service, as I was luck to experience in the good 'ole times. Again, there wasn't any sort of desperate disapointment underlying my last post at all, but trying to feel at ease with how it is now (were I could of course been mistaken) and simply move ahead. However, in this spirit here's an example TW with my very specific use case of having a second display area in the MainMenu and the already much talked about popup menu opening tiddlers with at least the same ease as with the regular SideBarTabs, but within an alternative display area and additional options: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/241006/Triptych_2.6.1.html#ExtendedPopupMenuExample I did already warn that it looks terribly amatourish ;-) The popup itself opens by clicking the small 'pick' item in the TopMenu. The visible default tiddler just uses a transclusion for easier demonstration. It's main pane first of all contains a DeleteList limited to tiddlers tagged 'fav' (shorthand for favorite), 'view' or 'edit' (for displaying tiddlers either in view [limited height with a resize handler], or with the help of TidIDEditorPlugin in edit mode within the MainMenu). Below that a table with the 20 most recenty modified tiddlers by using ForEachTiddlersPlugin and CycleTags script. Together this already satisfies my very specific use-case most of the times. The popup buttons 'select by tag' and 'by title' above the tables fully covers these additional selecting options with DeleteList too. While 'by date' and 'by size' only works with ForEachTiddler for those additional but rarely needed selection options with a very slow rendering speed (and their further limitation of ForEach and tag toggling tools together in popups already described). PS: Please note, this is still very experimental and in a flux of further improvements, so if anyone - though only a remote possiblity - uses some of it, one would always be in a better possition with backups of the original TW first, and if anything would go wrong (for example: accitentally deleting all tiddlers ;-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Re: Business Thought [was: Important Message from Eric]
Some underlying themes that have been coming up include a fear that the tiddlywiki project is dying (or at least looking like it's dying to outside observers), and that the resources around the project are disorganised. There seem to be many potential contributors that sometimes find it hard to get started. I believe that one of the simpler causes is that over the last 4 years the content of the main tiddlywiki site hasn't been actively updated and managed. As a result of this neglect (and as we've been discussing in a separate thread) many of the links at http://tiddlywiki.com/ have been dying off, and none of the new stuff (like Julio's) has been incorporated. As a result, to a new visitor, the project feels like at worst it's dying, and at best that the community resources are hopelessly hard to find and disorganised. Part of the reason is that even before working at BT, I was pretty unreliable at performing updates to the content; the process was ridiculously tedious and error prone. There were two or three updates by Osmosoft but they were fairly superficial. tiddlywiki.com is the de facto focal point for users of TiddlyWiki, and it should clearly lay out the available resources, and showcase the activities of the community around the project. It really ought to, for instance, list the few dozen plugins that are most widely used; keeping that list up to date and authoritative shouldn't be an onerous task to someone participating regularly in the discussion groups. At the moment we all know that the FET plugin is critical to lots of quite basic TiddlyWiki requirements, but you wouldn't know that from poking around tiddlywiki.com. The process to update tiddlywiki.com is much better now; there is a staging space for the content for the content at http://tiddlywiki-com.tiddlyspace.com/, and so we've got a lot of flexibility for multiple authorship, and pulling in content from other places. So, now that I've got my independence, as I've mentioned before, one of the things I want to do is start properly and regularly editing the content of tiddlywiki.com. Tiddlywiki.com gets quite a lot of traffic, and doing a better job of showcasing links to community created resources, and bringing traffic to them may well improve the incentives to do such things. There's already a separate thread about the updates, please do shout if you've any suggestions, questions, or offers of help. Best wishes Jeremy On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Julio wrote: > Wolgang says, > .."It just doen't works for very long if only 1-2 seriously > commited developers are regularly giving dependable and professional > advise, like Eric and Fred at that time, and 1-2 enthusiasic users who > regularly check to give sufficient every-day use responses. Giving and > taking becommes too one-sided and sooner or later one can't help but > give up." > > Agreed with you Wolfgang. So very true, > > However, some of us, I'll take myself as an example here, are lurkers > and can't contribute more, because eventhough we are enthusiasts and > can "dabble" with Tiddlywiki are not to the level of others are far > understanding intristics. We are those forgotten weekend warriors who > can only tinker and enjoy what the knowledgeable few have to offer. > > I wish I knew javascript and html, and css better and would be able to > dedicate full time to these. I do say this with a sense of guilt, > being that I have been following on and off this group for a couple of > years now. But, alas that is not possible. All I can do is play, > study, and tinker with random ideas from this group and searching > through the web. Hence my recent little test site at: Tiddlyspot [1]. > This is what I consider that I can do at the present moment and > hopefully some others can benefit from this. > > Remember, that "bad things happen for good reasons"...maybe this > exactly what needs to happen for Tiddlywiki community to wake up and > get that spark of energy again. Not that I want Eric to be in this > predicament at all...but you get my gist. > > Be well everyone. :) > > [1] http://jpen24mtc.tiddlyspot.com/ > > > On Nov 11, 9:36 am, wolfgang wrote: >> Thanks for sharing your inside views Chris and Jeremy, I really >> appreciate. >> >> >>> At some point, Tiddly is going to live or die by whether or not the folks >> >>> most committed to it find a long-term model for supporting the software >> >>> and >> >>> themselves. >> >> >> I completely disagree with this, and I think it is the prevelance of >> >> this attitude in this thread which has contributed to me becoming >> >> angry and finding it hard to find a way into the thread that is >> >> clear and focused. >> >> > Seems to me that, for Tiddly to move down that path, some core group needs >> > to >> > provide the focus for a year or two - and Jerymy and Erik seem like the >> > obvious candidates. >> >> I encoundered a somewhat similiar difficulty to stay focused on >> contributing some more constructive. But
[tw] Re: DeleteListPlugin request
> However, and additionally since Eric very likely wont have the > resources for responding to such specialized plugin requests anyway, I > therefore searched for other already available options: Don't be so negative! I'm not going away. What I have very clearly said is that I need to *cover my expenses* while I *CONTINUE* to work on TiddlyWiki. Sure, money buys food to keep me alive and paid work often takes priority, but that is NEVER the reason that I choose to do what I do with my time. I have already *chosen* to work on TiddlyWiki... now I just need to pay the rent and eat. Sadly, you seem to have already assumed that the TW community won't be able to provide a sufficient income to cover my expenses, even through a combination of voluntary "tip jar" donations AND *paid projects*. While this might be the case, it is entirely premature to conclude that the community response will be insufficient to meet my basic needs. In fact, the response to my appeal, posted less than a week ago, has been generally favorable with regard to my funding situation. I have already received a number of donations and, as long as the contributions continue to come in (small or large... it all adds up!), then it is looking "very likely" that I will be able to maintain my active focus on TiddlyWiki, without being distracted by other, non- TiddlyWiki work. -e -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Business Thought [was: Important Message from Eric]
Wolgang says, .."It just doen't works for very long if only 1-2 seriously commited developers are regularly giving dependable and professional advise, like Eric and Fred at that time, and 1-2 enthusiasic users who regularly check to give sufficient every-day use responses. Giving and taking becommes too one-sided and sooner or later one can't help but give up." Agreed with you Wolfgang. So very true, However, some of us, I'll take myself as an example here, are lurkers and can't contribute more, because eventhough we are enthusiasts and can "dabble" with Tiddlywiki are not to the level of others are far understanding intristics. We are those forgotten weekend warriors who can only tinker and enjoy what the knowledgeable few have to offer. I wish I knew javascript and html, and css better and would be able to dedicate full time to these. I do say this with a sense of guilt, being that I have been following on and off this group for a couple of years now. But, alas that is not possible. All I can do is play, study, and tinker with random ideas from this group and searching through the web. Hence my recent little test site at: Tiddlyspot [1]. This is what I consider that I can do at the present moment and hopefully some others can benefit from this. Remember, that "bad things happen for good reasons"...maybe this exactly what needs to happen for Tiddlywiki community to wake up and get that spark of energy again. Not that I want Eric to be in this predicament at all...but you get my gist. Be well everyone. :) [1] http://jpen24mtc.tiddlyspot.com/ On Nov 11, 9:36 am, wolfgang wrote: > Thanks for sharing your inside views Chris and Jeremy, I really > appreciate. > > >>> At some point, Tiddly is going to live or die by whether or not the folks > >>> most committed to it find a long-term model for supporting the software > >>> and > >>> themselves. > > >> I completely disagree with this, and I think it is the prevelance of > >> this attitude in this thread which has contributed to me becoming > >> angry and finding it hard to find a way into the thread that is > >> clear and focused. > > > Seems to me that, for Tiddly to move down that path, some core group needs > > to > > provide the focus for a year or two - and Jerymy and Erik seem like the > > obvious candidates. > > I encoundered a somewhat similiar difficulty to stay focused on > contributing some more constructive. But then it also became very > clear that those voices of feeling insecure about the future of > TiddlyWiki - also because the involvment of non-transparent financial > interests - brought a sort of anger and grieve too: that a TiddlyWiki > depending on too few active developers could indeed die very quickly. > > Though these feelings aren't particularly new: I too really needed to > take a break from the lack of regular contributors to this > 'community'. It just doen't works for very long if only 1-2 seriously > commited developers are regularly giving dependable and professional > advise, like Eric and Fred at that time, and 1-2 enthusiasic users who > regularly check to give sufficient every-day use responses. Giving and > taking becommes too one-sided and sooner or later one can't help but > give up. One could deny or lament, but in the end that's how it's > been: Few out of enthusiasm will fill this lack with too much > engagement while exacty this lack of a broad 'community' sooner or > later makes it sort of a chore - not neccessarily by itself but > compounded by usually occuring demands of daily life - take a break > for some time and finally are gone. Don't think too often this happens > out of interrest in TiddlyWiki has outgrown itself, but here I can > only talk for myself. Sure there were always a couple of new > enthousiasts and this cycle rolled on. > > And now the only one who could sustain this service at such a > professional level since it's beginnings could drop away! > > Well, if that doesn't appear a bit bleak for the future of TW I don't > know what else! Preaching an ideal community in this situation surely > wont help. It isn't there in it's double-sense of voluntarity _and_ > continuity. Just developers and users coming and moving on most of the > time with too rare exceptions. Where the possible lack of the rare > amounts to sort of a catastrophe. > > Maybe my view is a bid out of relation, because I don't have any > experience with other software communities to compare, but that's been > the situation as it presented itself to me here as an at one point > very enthusiastic TiddlyWiki contributor to this support forum. > > Beside having further degressed and maybe even miss-used this thread > of Eric for venting off - but I believe nevertheless this IS very > pertaining to the issue of Eric not being able to contribute anymore - > and very realistic fears what this would entail for TiddlyWiki. > > However, now I'm also glad at least Jeremy could appease some of the > most immediate fears. Thanks again for e
[tw] DeleteListPlugin request
One minor limitation for the envisioned extended popup menus with the existing FAQViewer, RecentChanges - and for example, the TableOfContentsPlugin too - is, that they aren't able to recognize included tiddler by IncludePlugin. Though LoadTiddlersPlugin with even more abilities than IncludePlugin would solve this limitation, but the thing I really dislike about LoadTiddlers is that it's messages for each loaded plugin can't be turned off (it's as disrupting as if each by systemConfig tag loaded plugin would display a similar message). However, and additionally since Eric very likely wont have the resources for responding to such specialized plugin requests anyway, I therefore searched for other already available options: The most obvious alternative for such extended popup menus could - especially for a non-developer like me - of course be made with ForEachTiddlersPlugin with it's flexible sorting options in a combination with other available plugins, like some ToggleTagPlugin. And some ShowWhenTagged script for displaying tiddlers also in other places than the display area. But here the strongest limitation is with it's slow processing speed when it comes to many tiddlers. Also for some reason checkboxes don't immediately show their changed state in popups. Though this could be remedied by placing it in the right sidebar, I still would prefer more flexible popups. Therefore tried all further available combinations of title sorting and tag toggle plugins in popups, for example MatchingTiddlersPlugin with CheckboxPlugin, but nothing existing solved this. For some unknown reason even using floating NestedSlider instead of ShowPopup still doesn't work in combination with all tested plugins or scripts and the latest TW versions (though interestingly, the immediately updated state does show in checkboxes for example in TiddlyTools TidIDEditor panel..) But then - luckily and unexpectedly - I rediscovered an other little known tool which already delivers by default alphabetically sorted lists of tiddler titles, the inbuilt option to limit them to indicated tags by its macro, as well as checkboxes to individually toggle an other set of predefined tags, or to delete the tidders in one go. Which actually is it's original main purpose and therefore also named DeleteListPlugin: http://tw.kuraku.net/tw.html#DeleteListPlugin Though some of it's out of the box configuration options, as to have such a DeleteList in the Backstage or OptionsPanel didn't work for me anymore with this already dated plugin, if needed this could be very easily fixed: # It is as fast as it can get. Tested it with a 4000 tiddlers TW alongside TableOfContentsPlugin's listbox, and there isn't any difference in display speed! - despite displaying complex tables instead of a simple listbox with the titles only. # Checkboxes do immediately show their changed state in popups too. # It does recognize included tiddlers without difficulty. The main function lacking from my wishlist, of having alternative title list sorting options, for example by date, still remains with DeleteListPlugin too, but with it's readily available inbuild functions and for my purpose - this now seems the best single plugin solution to my original plugin request - and it's lack is more then made up by solving most of the limitations of the other plugin/script combinations considered. Practically and combined, all together delivers all the originally searched for options of a popup menu with extended capabilities. By augmenting the lack in DeleteListPlugin with ForEachTiddlersPlugin's additional sorting, where the later's limitations don't matter that much anymore, because they aren't as frequently needed by what's already covered by DeleteList. Though it's a terribly amateurish patchwork solution ;-), but nevertheless sufficiently works for me now. However, maybe there is an other developer who could see the advantages of a little bid modified DeleteListPlugin? Since this plugin isn't really that complex at all. It creates a table where the header contains the following in reverse order: # all tag names indicated in the macro to display, with checkboxes for each to toggle on or off in the main table below # a column for the title # an additional column with a simple marker for systemConfig tagged tiddlers, but nothing for all other tiddlers # and in its first column a checkbox to mark all tiddler titles for batch processing by a listbox selector below the table, titled 'More actions...', but which by default only let's one choose: 'Delete these tiddlers forever': http://tw.kuraku.net/tw.html#DeleteList I could envision the following small helpful adjustments and additions: # placing the listbox selector with 'More actions...' from below to above the table (since practically some lists could become very long) # the use of the already existing listbox selector for sorting the table by date, size, and even for selecting certain tags only, which could overri
[tw] Re: Business Thought [was: Important Message from Eric]
Thanks for sharing your inside views Chris and Jeremy, I really appreciate. >>> At some point, Tiddly is going to live or die by whether or not the folks >>> most committed to it find a long-term model for supporting the software and >>> themselves. >> >> I completely disagree with this, and I think it is the prevelance of >> this attitude in this thread which has contributed to me becoming >> angry and finding it hard to find a way into the thread that is >> clear and focused. > > Seems to me that, for Tiddly to move down that path, some core group needs to > provide the focus for a year or two - and Jerymy and Erik seem like the > obvious candidates. I encoundered a somewhat similiar difficulty to stay focused on contributing some more constructive. But then it also became very clear that those voices of feeling insecure about the future of TiddlyWiki - also because the involvment of non-transparent financial interests - brought a sort of anger and grieve too: that a TiddlyWiki depending on too few active developers could indeed die very quickly. Though these feelings aren't particularly new: I too really needed to take a break from the lack of regular contributors to this 'community'. It just doen't works for very long if only 1-2 seriously commited developers are regularly giving dependable and professional advise, like Eric and Fred at that time, and 1-2 enthusiasic users who regularly check to give sufficient every-day use responses. Giving and taking becommes too one-sided and sooner or later one can't help but give up. One could deny or lament, but in the end that's how it's been: Few out of enthusiasm will fill this lack with too much engagement while exacty this lack of a broad 'community' sooner or later makes it sort of a chore - not neccessarily by itself but compounded by usually occuring demands of daily life - take a break for some time and finally are gone. Don't think too often this happens out of interrest in TiddlyWiki has outgrown itself, but here I can only talk for myself. Sure there were always a couple of new enthousiasts and this cycle rolled on. And now the only one who could sustain this service at such a professional level since it's beginnings could drop away! Well, if that doesn't appear a bit bleak for the future of TW I don't know what else! Preaching an ideal community in this situation surely wont help. It isn't there in it's double-sense of voluntarity _and_ continuity. Just developers and users coming and moving on most of the time with too rare exceptions. Where the possible lack of the rare amounts to sort of a catastrophe. Maybe my view is a bid out of relation, because I don't have any experience with other software communities to compare, but that's been the situation as it presented itself to me here as an at one point very enthusiastic TiddlyWiki contributor to this support forum. Beside having further degressed and maybe even miss-used this thread of Eric for venting off - but I believe nevertheless this IS very pertaining to the issue of Eric not being able to contribute anymore - and very realistic fears what this would entail for TiddlyWiki. However, now I'm also glad at least Jeremy could appease some of the most immediate fears. Thanks again for everyone's contributions. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Tiddler-Based-Communication-Protocol
On Nov 11, 9:44 am, Tobias Beer wrote: > Probably rather quickly we end up with a lot of what TiddlyWeb already > has implementations for, like roles, recepes, bags atop of the atomic > thing at the heart of it all... called a tiddler... and a > serialization that wraps the stuff and sends it across the web. > > If these data are then communicated via some bloated XML or a perhaps > way more streamlined JSON pattern... that would not even have to be > part of the standard, but just different means to serialize all the > bits and pieces required for communication ...via some library > implemented in whatever serverside environment is to ones liking. > > The protocol / exchange formats should be simple and clear, just like > the concept of a tiddler. I'm not really sure what I can add to this, because I pretty much agree with what you've said. TiddlyWeb already provides an architecture for moving tiddlers around and it is pretty straightforward because it uses HTTP. And tiddlers in TiddlyWeb are pretty easy to identify because the URI of the tiddler _is_ the tiddler. This is all standard and entirely intentional aspects of TiddlyWeb being a true web application (i.e. psuedo- RESTful). The serialization model in TiddlyWeb makes it possible to send and receive tiddlers however you like and persist them in a way that is independent of how they are sent. Again, standard and entirely intentional aspects of being a good web app. I think the issues that "tiddlygrp" and a few others have pointed out are: 1. There's no standard format. 2. Tiddlers don't have UUIDS, thus lending themselves to free-floating in a global distributed network. On 2, that's a simple matter of programming. We can make it so tiddlers have uuids, but then you need to decided if/when those uuids change. Do you get a new uuid per revision? Does the uuid stay the same or change if the tiddler is renamed? Or do you keep a history, as in proper version control and enable some git like handling? On 1, I personally think tiddlers are both simple enough and have establish enough of a precedent that we can go with what's already being done along with some light improvements. A tiddler is a lightly nested dictionary: * title: string * modifier: string * creator: string * modified: date§ * created: date§ * text: string (binaries encoded as needed) * type: string (content-type of text) * revision: an arbitrary identifier for this revision * tags: list of strings * fields: dictionary of arbitrary string:string pairs § how to represent dates would need to be resolved The shortcomings in the above is that this tiddler, internal to itself, does not disambiguate itself from another tiddler with the same title. In TiddlyWeb this is handled by the bag concept, but that is presumably not a universal concept in the tiddlyverse. Thus some kind of uuid, or uri would be desired as well. OR it's entirely reasonable just to say "the inter-server transport is Atom", because that would work too. Atom is capable of representing tiddler just fine (with some tweaks for arbitrary fields). Or perhaps JSON activity streams. Note that most of this "syntax and semantics for tiddlers" was driven by the model established in the TiddlyWiki AdaptorMechanisn, which adapts server content (of many types) to TiddlyWiki Tiddler objects. TiddlyWeb's understanding and modeling of a Tiddler object is quite similar but a bit different (to deal with bags and recipes and real revisions). The difference, though is easily handled at the interface between TiddlyWeb's core and the serializations that it uses for transport. Very happy to answer more specific questions, but without some direction I'm not sure what else to say. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
Re: [tw] Business Thought [was: Important Message from Eric]
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, Miles Fidelman wrote: Seems to me that, for Tiddly to move down that path, some core group needs to provide the focus for a year or two - and Jerymy and Erik seem like the obvious candidates. Yes, this I agree with and am fully behind. -- Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/ [...] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Re: Important Message from Eric
Hi tiddlygrp, "I rather think what is missing is a defined protocol in terms of syntax and semantics for tiddlers..." To not further lead this thread off topic (on my end), I have moved my reply over here... Tiddler-Based-Communication-Protocol http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/browse_frm/thread/2697193041b432d3# Cheers, Tobias. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
[tw] Tiddler-Based-Communication-Protocol
As a response to tiddlygrp: "I rather think what is missing is a defined protocol in terms of syntax and semantics for tiddlers (i.e. exchange of tiddlers between tw and server and different tw's)." I do agree... when I was referring to serverside here [1], I did not necessarily mean persistance. In fact - and I believe I somewhat communicated that - what I find missing is the communication bit for exchanging tiddlers... as you say. If that indeed requires an initial protocol definition, then that's the way to go. However, there sure needs to then be some kind of serverside component that deals with all the required messaging in order to - clientside - not only read and locally merge stuff in whichever browser supports the frontend ...tiddlywiki-style. Of course, at some point we'd also need a persistence layer... of which certainly a few are ready to go. So, yes... a well defined, standardized communication pattern regarding tiddlers and their attributes may well be the thing in need... only to then to be able actually implement anything in terms of communication and eventually persistence components at some server or another. So then, maybe it's time to remove all thinking in terms of HTML, DOM and JS for a moment from the picture and to concentrate on what things really are those in need of being exchanged when talking about cross- site-tiddler-communication. Probably rather quickly we end up with a lot of what TiddlyWeb already has implementations for, like roles, recepes, bags atop of the atomic thing at the heart of it all... called a tiddler... and a serialization that wraps the stuff and sends it across the web. If these data are then communicated via some bloated XML or a perhaps way more streamlined JSON pattern... that would not even have to be part of the standard, but just different means to serialize all the bits and pieces required for communication ...via some library implemented in whatever serverside environment is to ones liking. The protocol / exchange formats should be simple and clear, just like the concept of a tiddler. Could some TiddlyWeb Guru please share some thoughts? Cheers, Tobias. [1] http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/msg/2563bde3cc276ced -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.
