[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Josiah]

Ciao Tobias & Mark S.

Actually I agree with you on your TW pragmatics. 

What I didn't make clear enough is I was talking about CSV generally. Its 
inconsistent. Its an old standard that you have to get right in context. 
Its got several flavours. JSON I prefer because its consistent in its 
rules. 

Best wishes
Josiah

On Monday, 24 October 2016 18:43:58 UTC+2, Tobias Beer wrote:
>
> Hi Josiah,
>  
>
>> I simply don't understand the appeal of CSV. Its a flabby standard. 
>>
> Often a pain-in-the arse. What's wrong with JSON, its much more robust & 
>> with clear rules?
>>
>
> Simple:
>
>1. *Export *from TiddlyWiki
>2. *Edit* in Spreadsheet
>3. *Import *into TiddlyWiki
>
> Apart from a one time setup you may need in terms of CSV options,
> what would be the pain in the ass?
> Once set up, it's the most hazzle free free thing to use in order to:
>
>1. bulk modify things outside of TiddlyWiki
>2. convert some spreadsheet data into tiddlers
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tobias.
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Josiah,
 

> I simply don't understand the appeal of CSV. Its a flabby standard. 
>
Often a pain-in-the arse. What's wrong with JSON, its much more robust & 
> with clear rules?
>

Simple:

   1. *Export *from TiddlyWiki
   2. *Edit* in Spreadsheet
   3. *Import *into TiddlyWiki

Once set up, it's the most hazzle free free thing to use in order to:

   1. bulk modify things outside of TiddlyWiki
   2. convert some spreadsheet data into tiddlers

Apart from some initial setup that you may need in terms of CSV options,
what would be the pain in the ass?

Best wishes,

Tobias.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Who ya calling flabby ? ;-)

Actually, CSV is streamlined. Especially if typing by hand. You just put 
the text you want on the line and bang -- done. You don't have to repeat  
labels over and over and get the spelling right every time. You don't get a 
crash because you forgot a closing bracket or curly brace. 

CSV has been around a long time, and you're more likely to find converters 
for it in various applications.  It's much easier to write a CSV parser by 
hand if you have to than JSON (assuming you don't have a handy library). 
Looking at export options on Excel 2013, I don't see the ability to  export 
to JSON. 

I suppose the most universal format would be XML, though it's even messier 
to type than JSON.

Have fun,
Mark



On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 8:42:02 AM UTC-7, Josiah wrote:
>
> Ciao Tobias & Mat
>
> I simply don't understand the appeal of CSV. Its a flabby standard. Often 
> a pain-in-the arse. What's wrong with JSON, its much more robust & with 
> clear rules?
>
> Best wishes
> Josiah
>
> On Monday, 24 October 2016 07:51:55 UTC+2, Tobias Beer wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mat,
>>
>> I believe, what we eventually want or need is a csv (multi-)tid 
>> serializer for the core, i.e. another option to export one or more tiddlers 
>> and then the appropriate import handler. All this preferably allowing to 
>> configure custom csv formats, e.g.
>>
>>- delimiter(s)
>>- quote symbol(s) — to allow for line-breaks in cells
>>- escape symbol(s) — to escape delimiters or quote symbols in cells
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Tobias.
>>
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Josiah]

Ciao Tobias & Mat

I simply don't understand the appeal of CSV. Its a flabby standard. Often a 
pain-in-the arse. What's wrong with JSON, its much more robust & with clear 
rules?

Best wishes
Josiah

On Monday, 24 October 2016 07:51:55 UTC+2, Tobias Beer wrote:
>
> Hi Mat,
>
> I believe, what we eventually want or need is a csv (multi-)tid serializer 
> for the core, i.e. another option to export one or more tiddlers and then 
> the appropriate import handler. All this preferably allowing to configure 
> custom csv formats, e.g.
>
>- delimiter(s)
>- quote symbol(s) — to allow for line-breaks in cells
>- escape symbol(s) — to escape delimiters or quote symbols in cells
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tobias.
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I see Jeremy has a post about importing XLSX files. Seems that any CSV 
could probably be converted to XLS and then loaded via the new plugin.

Thanks,
Mark 

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:51:55 PM UTC-7, Tobias Beer wrote:
>
> Hi Mat,
>
> I believe, what we eventually want or need is a csv (multi-)tid serializer 
> for the core, i.e. another option to export one or more tiddlers and then 
> the appropriate import handler. All this preferably allowing to configure 
> custom csv formats, e.g.
>
>- delimiter(s)
>- quote symbol(s) — to allow for line-breaks in cells
>- escape symbol(s) — to escape delimiters or quote symbols in cells
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tobias.
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Mat,

I believe, what we eventually want or need is a csv (multi-)tid serializer 
for the core, i.e. another option to export one or more tiddlers and then 
the appropriate import handler.

Best wishes,

Tobias.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I do have a tool for CSV here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/qabE7I41Hos/SnHShTZsBgAJ

Think I've written a more automatic version, but don't have time to sift 
through my files at the moment.

Good luck!
Mark 
On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 10:29:49 AM UTC-7, Mark Heptinstall wrote:
>
> On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 6:00:19 PM UTC+1, stevesuny wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I don't believe Eric's #CreateTiddlersFromCSV has been implemented in TW5.
>>
>> My working solution is to three-step it: (1) Create CSV (2) Convert CSV 
>> to JSON (best tool: http://www.convertcsv.com/csv-to-json.htm) (3) 
>> import JSON. It's reasonably fast and relatively painless.
>>
>
> Awesome, didn't realise you could drag and drop import a JSON file. 
> Thanks! 
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Mark Heptinstall]

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 6:00:19 PM UTC+1, stevesuny wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I don't believe Eric's #CreateTiddlersFromCSV has been implemented in TW5.
>
> My working solution is to three-step it: (1) Create CSV (2) Convert CSV to 
> JSON (best tool: http://www.convertcsv.com/csv-to-json.htm) (3) import 
> JSON. It's reasonably fast and relatively painless.
>

Awesome, didn't realise you could drag and drop import a JSON file. Thanks! 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Mark Heptinstall]

On Friday, January 8, 2016 at 10:07:14 PM UTC, Eric Shulman wrote:
>
>
>> I did exactly that for TWClassic:
>http://www.tiddlytools.com/#CreateTiddlersFromCSV
>
> This was implemented as wikitext + HTML and all of the real work is in 
> the HTML code, using onclick handlers.  You can ignore everything outside 
> of the ... block.  There's also a bit of 
> stuff for selecting a tiddler to populate the textarea.  You can also 
> ignore this.  It should be very easy to adapt this code to TW5, using an 
> action widget in place of the onclick handler.
>
> enjoy,
> -e
>  
>

Has anyone successfully adapted this to TW5? 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Jed Carty]

I made a tool to make tiddler schools (didn't someone come up with a better 
word for that a while ago? I can't remember.). You give a filter and a name 
and it creates a tiddler that contains all the information for all the 
tiddlers returned by the filter. You can then import that tiddler into 
another wiki and use the widget I made (action-import-tiddlers) to unpack 
the imported tiddlers.

There is a demo here . 
There is a bug that I can't track down, if you try to make a school using 
the filter [tag[Filter Operators]] or [tag[Messages]] you get a too much 
recursion error. I can't figure out why and I haven't found any other bugs 
so far. I am sure there are plenty though, so play with it and try to break 
it. 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Mat]

Hi Jed

well, considering my inability as described I think you have at least my 
answer. But then maybe the answer to my question, i.e how do I import a csv 
file into separate tiddlers, is really trivial so...

On Friday, January 8, 2016 at 7:23:06 PM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> This doesn't really answer your question, but you gave me an idea that may 
> be useful.
>
> Would people find a plugin that lets you paste text into a tiddler from a 
> csv or some other file type that can hold tiddler data and then have the 
> pasted text converted into tiddlers?
> Making a very simple (and probably full of bugs) version shouldn't be too 
> hard.
> I am not sure how useful it would be because you would still need to copy 
> and paste text.
>
>
 

> Almost completely off topic:
> It just occurred to me that this could go both ways, we could pretty 
> easily make a utility that takes tiddlers returned by a filter and put them 
> into the format used by .tid files using only wikitext. This is already 
> done by the export mechanism 
>

Actually, I believe currently we're limited to exporting one tiddler or 
all, or in the case of .tid only one. I wrote an issue on it #1687 - 
so exporting based on 
a filter should definitely be valuable.

 

> but we want to put the output into the text field of a tiddler so it is 
> easy to copy between wikis. 
>

Hm, if we're going to merely transfer it between TWs, then is there a point 
in converting it to another format first? I'm probably misunderstanding 
something.
 

> I guess that is just the tiddler swarm idea from a while ago where we make 
> something like a temporary plugin that is just used to import a group of 
> tiddlers from one wiki to another. But the same utility could work with 
> multiple formats (.tid, csv, json, etc.) to make life easier. 
>

I'm vaguely reminded of @Andreas Hahns Tinka plugin packer. But what wuold 
be neat is a quicker thing where you, for instance, filter out some 
tiddlers and this generates a temporary single link that can be immediately 
pulled into some other TW. ...where I guess it would ideally be interpreted 
as multiple tiddlers immediately. Again, I don't understand why it should 
convert formats, unless you want to export it to a non-TW or perhaps from a 
single file TW into a node.js TW.

<:-) 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Eric Shulman]

On Friday, January 8, 2016 at 10:23:06 AM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> This doesn't really answer your question, but you gave me an idea that may 
> be useful.
>
> Would people find a plugin that lets you paste text into a tiddler from a 
> csv or some other file type that can hold tiddler data and then have the 
> pasted text converted into tiddlers?
> Making a very simple (and probably full of bugs) version shouldn't be too 
> hard.
> I am not sure how useful it would be because you would still need to copy 
> and paste text.
>

I did exactly that for TWClassic:
   http://www.tiddlytools.com/#CreateTiddlersFromCSV

This was implemented as wikitext + HTML and all of the real work is in 
the HTML code, using onclick handlers.  You can ignore everything outside 
of the ... block.  There's also a bit of 
stuff for selecting a tiddler to populate the textarea.  You can also 
ignore this.  It should be very easy to adapt this code to TW5, using an 
action widget in place of the onclick handler.

enjoy,
-e
 

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Mat]

@Eric - your input is appreciated, thank you!

@Jed- a demo is great news! 

@everyone
Having now read (even more) in the archives, I conclude there just is no 
decent solution yet. There are two less-than-satisfying solutions suggested;

1) Find external service that converts from whatever-format-you-have into 
JSON. In my case CSV to JSON. I did find this CSV conversions 
 service which looks very nice. 
They also provide a bunch of other conversion alternatives with CSV on one 
side (see left menu there) and, fyi, also a sister site with some JSON 
conversions . 
To use this there are a bunch of parameters to set so I have not yet dived 
(dove? doven? dividaded?) into it. Some quick attempts seem to generate a 
JSON but it takes all existing fields from all tiddlers and assumes they 
are all valid for all tiddlers. In other words I suspect you'd get tiddlers 
with loads of empty extra fields.

2) The other "solution" is explained by Richard Smith here 
+ two 
posts down there. Basically, you manually add extra columns in your CSV 
file in a spreadsheet and put in JSON characters/delimiters. Then paste 
into a text file. Then drag this textfile into TW. 

...so an in-house solution, even if it involves some copy pasting *inside 
tiddlers* would definitely be welcome.

I can think of two cases why it is important with a decent solution:

1) It is reasonable to expect newcomers to TW to want to - or even see it 
as a precondition for trying TW out - to be able to import data from 
previous systems.

2) I believe we can create editions (or "applications" as I'd prefer to 
call them) that attracts people to try out TW where a big part of the 
appeal is *in the content*. Currently, most TW solutions are "merely" an 
empty tool, but I think we can reach more/other people if we provide a tool 
with also valuable content.

Ok, better stop twaddling. I have a site for that. Anyway, really hoping 
for some decent solution on this.

Thanks guys

<:-)



<:-)

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Jed Carty]

Yes, the idea is to take the Tinka plugin and instead of creating a plugin 
you just make a link that can be dragged to another wiki to import many 
tiddlers at the same time. The tiddlers are converted because there needs 
to be some way to pack them into a single thing to import, if this didn't 
require some sort of conversion than we wouldn't have the problem.

The way this relates to your original question is that it could provide a 
framework for copying plaintext into a tiddler and applying some transform 
to it to create tiddlers. I don't think I am doing a good job of explaining 
this so I am just going to try and make a demo. I will post a link here if 
i get anything.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] Import a CSV file... how actually?

[Jed Carty]

This doesn't really answer your question, but you gave me an idea that may 
be useful.

Would people find a plugin that lets you paste text into a tiddler from a 
csv or some other file type that can hold tiddler data and then have the 
pasted text converted into tiddlers?
Making a very simple (and probably full of bugs) version shouldn't be too 
hard.
I am not sure how useful it would be because you would still need to copy 
and paste text.

Almost completely off topic:
It just occurred to me that this could go both ways, we could pretty easily 
make a utility that takes tiddlers returned by a filter and put them into 
the format used by .tid files using only wikitext. This is already done by 
the export mechanism but we want to put the output into the text field of a 
tiddler so it is easy to copy between wikis. I guess that is just the 
tiddler swarm idea from a while ago where we make something like a 
temporary plugin that is just used to import a group of tiddlers from one 
wiki to another. But the same utility could work with multiple formats 
(.tid, csv, json, etc.) to make life easier. 

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