Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Felix Küppers]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 5:24:20 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 11:55:06 AM UTC+2, Felix Küppers wrote:
>>
>>  Your problem of "losing related attachments" is not nice but you have NO 
>> CHANCE to fix that as it is the tiddlywiki design and the same as 
>> link-breaking when changing the title. I think the only reason tiddlywiki 
>> preferred titles as primary key over ids is because in contrast to a db the 
>> user is directly involved and linking titles is easier to handle than 
>> linking ids or adding a layer that abstracts the id.
>>
>
> This is because TWs initial nature is a single file based system and non 
> techy users get very confused by machine IDs. 
>
> It is very, very unlikely, that Jeremy will change this. ... but it 
> doesn't prevent us from adding an UUID field with plugins. 
> We as plugin authors should just find a common path. ..
>

yes, mario. I agree. I think there is a strong interest in having each 
tiddler getting a unique id as field for various reasons!
 

>
> -mario
>

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Felix Küppers]

Hi Danielo,

if you do *not* have any attachments and just want to recreate the wiki 
(its tiddlers) in a database* then it would be ok to stick with titles as 
ids.*

Everytime Tiddlywiki deletes a tiddler you delete the document in the db.
Everytime a tiddler gets modified (added or changed) you update the tiddler 
in your db.

This works well for a non-relational db where data is not linked (no 
attachments).

*In a relational db you will lose track when renaming is done* (as you 
already said) just as links break in tiddlywiki. In this case I will add a 
plugin that adds UUIDs to tiddlers.

-Felix

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Felix Küppers]

Hi Jeremy,


> I understand that you are suggesting a new UUID field that is independent 
> of the title field. I'm responding that there is already a unique ID field 
> for tiddlers; it's pointlessly expensive to enforce two unique IDs.
>

I don't think it is pointless in Danielo's case because the title is a 
unique id field but when it changes he has no way to update any 
"attachments" in his database that linked to the object that was identified 
by the title.

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Mat]

>
> I think we are moving from the original topic. My real question was about 
> external databases. So I want advise from the community and more 
> experienced users if sync-adaptors should take care of giving each tiddler 
> an unique ID or we should stick to tiddlers titles to make the process more 
> easy.
>


@Danielo - which aspect of using tiddler titles, unique as they are, is 
inappropriate for your use case? Would you be more happy if the ID is e.g a 
number? - why in that case? 

Could it be that you want a very specific *format* on the ID? (and which 
exact format in that case?) Surely different external databases, as well as 
different sync-adaptors, use different formats for IDs?


<:-)
TWaddle.tiddlyspot

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Jeremy

I think we are moving from the original topic. My real question was about 
external databases. So I want advise from the community and more 
experienced users if sync-adaptors should take care of giving each tiddler 
an unique ID or we should stick to tiddlers titles to make the process more 
easy.

Thanks to anyone.

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Danielo

I understand that you are suggesting a new UUID field that is independent
of the title field. I'm responding that there is already a unique ID field
for tiddlers; it's pointlessly expensive to enforce two unique IDs. Hence
my proposal of what I think is a viable way for TiddlyWiki to be extended
to support GUIDs.

Best wishes

Jeremy.


On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:

> Hello Jeremy,
>
> I don't know why every time someone talks about UIDS everyone thinks
> automatically in titles. I'm not talking about using this IDS as titles,
> neither to identify a tiddler in any way. We are just talking about
> assigning one unique ID to each tiddler. Why is this so problematic? Why
> everyone thinks that we want to kill the current title mechanism? It's not
> about that.
>
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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Jeremy, 

I don't know why every time someone talks about UIDS everyone thinks 
automatically in titles. I'm not talking about using this IDS as titles, 
neither to identify a tiddler in any way. We are just talking about assigning 
one unique ID to each tiddler. Why is this so problematic? Why everyone thinks 
that we want to kill the current title mechanism? It's not about that. 

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Jeremy Ruston]

This topic has come up several times; I probably ought to add a faq to
tiddlywiki.com/dev.

Here's one thread from last year about it:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/Y1V7oyBLpSs/discussion

The tl;dr version is that TiddlyWiki already uses unique IDs to identify
tiddlers, the "title" field. The intention is that people should be able to
use GUIDs as titles if that is what they need but that support is not yet
complete (eg more support for "caption" field). I believe that the end
result would be the same as the proposal here.

To respond to a few points in the thread:

* Wikis generally do not use IDs because it means that it is no longer
possible to uniquely identify a tiddler with a human readable name
* GUIDs are not needed to tiddler revision handling
* I don't think the suggestion in #1550 is feasible; I've added a note there
* Federation does not need GUIDs, nor for tiddler titles to be globally
unique

Best wishes

Jeremy.





On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Danielo Rodríguez 
wrote:

>
>
> I think, the important part here is. Users will always face tiddler names
>> only. .. you can easily prefix them.
>>
> As you said, we want to focus on humans. People usually don't want to add
> a prefix to each of their tiddlers only to determine the wiki or user they
> belongs to. Also, we don't have anything that enforces usernames.
>
>
>
>>  IMO we should go with an UUID V4 as a tiddler ID.
>>
> Felix has an algorithm in his tiddlymap library. ... IMO we should make a
>> pull request for the core.
>
>
> It is very, very unlikely, that Jeremy will change this. ... but it
>> doesn't prevent us from adding an UUID field with plugins.
>> We as plugin authors should just find a common path. ..
>
>
> This both things have confused me a bit. You said more or less the same
> that Felix and me, but I'm not sure if you subscribe our ideas or not. What
> do you think exactly? A pull to the core? A separate plugin? For me,
> providing unique IDs it's a feature that should be inside the core. Even if
> the core does not takes care of them neither uses them. If you think this
> should be a plugin, I'm fine with that as soon as all plugin authors stick
> to the same plugin.
>
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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

I think, the important part here is. Users will always face tiddler names 
> only. .. you can easily prefix them. 
>
As you said, we want to focus on humans. People usually don't want to add a 
prefix to each of their tiddlers only to determine the wiki or user they 
belongs to. Also, we don't have anything that enforces usernames.
 
 

>  IMO we should go with an UUID V4 as a tiddler ID. 
>
Felix has an algorithm in his tiddlymap library. ... IMO we should make a 
> pull request for the core. 


It is very, very unlikely, that Jeremy will change this. ... but it doesn't 
> prevent us from adding an UUID field with plugins. 
> We as plugin authors should just find a common path. .. 


This both things have confused me a bit. You said more or less the same 
that Felix and me, but I'm not sure if you subscribe our ideas or not. What 
do you think exactly? A pull to the core? A separate plugin? For me, 
providing unique IDs it's a feature that should be inside the core. Even if 
the core does not takes care of them neither uses them. If you think this 
should be a plugin, I'm fine with that as soon as all plugin authors stick 
to the same plugin. 

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Alex Hough]

Emphasising cloning approach

How about this for a work-around: When a tiddler is cloned, a ClonedFrom field
is created. When you want to change the title of a tiddler, clone it then
change give it a new name.

There could be a "refactor links" plugin which could seek out cloned
tiddlers, references from the tiddlers being cloned, then alter links. The
cloned tiddler could be given a "1" in a isDead field.

This work-flow would emphasise cloning and the self-replicating aspects of
TW. It promotes a cautious approach where tiddlers are not deleted: if you
want to change it clone it! I have sometimes deleted a tiddler and really
wished there was a undo button. Cloning is also more closely related to
"forking" in GitHub <#GitHub>: its more of the zeitgeist than deleting...
Clone to delete

It might be worth considering changing the delete buttons function: rather
than deleting it, it could just be demoted in the evolution of the
TiddlyWiki <#TiddlyWiki>.

Delete could also be a cloning function: instead of it being removed from
the store forever, a new tiddler could be created with a tittle appended
with "deleted", the tag "isDead" and a field "clonedFrom". "isDead"
tiddlers could then be hidden, like shadow tiddlers.

(The isDead technique was shown to me by a friend who developed his own
"fractal database" method. He was inspired by attempting to model Stafford
Beers recursive Viable System Model. Given that names of things are
subjective and socially constructed (from some philosophical standpoints)
emphasising the process and relationships hidden behind the name can be
seen as more important.

As a user, I want to create new tiddlers and give them whatever name I
want. I want to be able to track the development of my idea from "original"
though various "clones". When we start to use words like "parent" and
"child" we are adopting a metaphor related to sexual reproduction – subtly
different from "cloning": its the difference between a plant grown from a
seed produced from a pollinated flower and one produced from a cutting. TW
is all about growing from cuttings. TW is a quine, a self replicating
program. I think this fact is a sleeping giant in our thinking about
branding
Cloning language, cloning metaphor: TW –The Quine Wiki

I think this would be a strategy for branding and marketing. Bringing the
philosophy related to the underlying computer science and the language we
use to create tiddlywikis and knowledge closer together will enable
cohesive devel.

We could consider the wiki and the quine as a muse and metaphor for some of
the issues related to knowledge creation identified by Quine <#Quine> and
elaborated on by Hofstader <#Hofstader> in GEB <#GEB>

On 26 May 2015 at 16:29, PMario  wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 1:51:29 PM UTC+2, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>>
>> When we get the TWederation set up, unique tiddler IDs might become of
>> general interest.
>>
>> This is something that confuses me. Jeremy has expressed his interest on
>> federation, but all the comments and attitudes of an important part of the
>> community are against the unique IDs. I don't know how do they plan to
>> handle this.
>>
>
> I think, the important part here is. Users will always face tiddler names
> only. .. you can easily prefix them.
>
> eg: pmario/myTiddler, rdanielo/myTiddler,  So TW names are different,
> depending on there origin. .. This is called a "namespace"
> We use this mechanism a lot with system tiddlers, so all the functions
> should be in the core already.
>
> -m
>
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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 1:51:29 PM UTC+2, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> When we get the TWederation set up, unique tiddler IDs might become of 
> general interest.
>
> This is something that confuses me. Jeremy has expressed his interest on 
> federation, but all the comments and attitudes of an important part of the 
> community are against the unique IDs. I don't know how do they plan to 
> handle this.
>

I think, the important part here is. Users will always face tiddler names 
only. .. you can easily prefix them. 

eg: pmario/myTiddler, rdanielo/myTiddler,  So TW names are different, 
depending on there origin. .. This is called a "namespace"
We use this mechanism a lot with system tiddlers, so all the functions 
should be in the core already. 

-m  

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 12:26:45 PM UTC+2, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> I do have a chance! please, don't tell me NO CHANCE, I get depressed 
> easily :P  
>

:)  As I wrote imo used UUIDs ... You will have a bit more work to do. Let 
the users use names and internally use your uuids. 

m 

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[PMario]

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 11:55:06 AM UTC+2, Felix Küppers wrote:
>
>  Your problem of "losing related attachments" is not nice but you have NO 
> CHANCE to fix that as it is the tiddlywiki design and the same as 
> link-breaking when changing the title. I think the only reason tiddlywiki 
> preferred titles as primary key over ids is because in contrast to a db the 
> user is directly involved and linking titles is easier to handle than 
> linking ids or adding a layer that abstracts the id.
>

This is because TWs initial nature is a single file based system and non 
techy users get very confused by machine IDs. 

It is very, very unlikely, that Jeremy will change this. ... but it doesn't 
prevent us from adding an UUID field with plugins. 
We as plugin authors should just find a common path. ..

-mario

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Felix 

> Sorry, sorry. I didn't mean to say no chance, I just wanted to say you 
> need to be prepared to develop some workarounds :) Nothing is impossible it 
> is just a matter of creativity and we know you are one of the creative guys 
> around ;
>
>
No problem, I was just joking (I think  you got it ;D ) and Thank you for 
the kind words. 


Yes, good point! TiddlyMap already has this build in and I would really 
> like to outsource it as plugin but my problem so far has been that I am 
> afraid of telling the user "tiddlymap is easy to install, you just need to 
> drag and drop 100 separate plugins".
>

TIddlymap is a totally special plugin, and I think it deserves some effort 
in its installation. Anyway, I see TiddlyMap more like a tiddlywiki 
flavor/application rather than a plugin. I don't see people installing 
tiddly-map in their day to day use wiki, but creating a separated wiki for 
that. You have already very good documentation about your plugin and it's 
very easy to download an empty wiki with tiddlymap, so I don't see it as a 
deal breaker. Anyway, you could keep the ID generation as part of the core 
of TW-map but create the plugin anyway.

 

> Exactly what I am thinking. Sorry, but I am very busy at the moment but as 
> soon a I find the time, I'll create a plugin from the code I am already 
> using at tiddlymap and write you a message.
>
>
No problem. We have lived with this from the beginning, so we can wait a 
couple of weeks more. I really trust that you will end with a great product.
 

>
> Sorry, this is a misunderstanding. I thought you want to use the tiddler 
> fields as "multi attribute primary keys" (also known as combined primary 
> key). Say "prename" + "surname" + "adress" = primary key. So just ignore 
> this part of my answer.
>

Ok, clear now.

Thank you very much Felix for your inputs. 

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Felix Küppers]

Hi Danielo,

> I do have a chance! please, don't tell me NO CHANCE, I get depressed
> easily :P  You were my inspiration, your plugin is my inspiration!
> Reading this is impossible coming from you has more meaning than
> anyone else!

Sorry, sorry. I didn't mean to say no chance, I just wanted to say you
need to be prepared to develop some workarounds :) Nothing is impossible
it is just a matter of creativity and we know you are one of the
creative guys around ;)

>  Exactly. TW does not need to change, it can still working the same,
> just assign an unique ID, even if you don't use it!

YES! exactly my thinking!

> Maybe a plugin for this can be created. A good plugin, focused on that
> task, only adding an unique ID to every tiddler. Then every plugin
> that needs an unique ID can ask the user to include this plugin.

Yes, good point! TiddlyMap already has this build in and I would really
like to outsource it as plugin but my problem so far has been that I am
afraid of telling the user "tiddlymap is easy to install, you just need
to drag and drop 100 separate plugins".

> This have several advantages, one of them is that your plugin does not
> need to take care of ID generation. The other advantage is, if every
> plugin adds an unique id we will end with tiddlers with one unique id
> per plugin,a central place for IDs solves this.

Exactly what I am thinking. Sorry, but I am very busy at the moment but
as soon a I find the time, I'll create a plugin from the code I am
already using at tiddlymap and write you a message.

>> Or should be treat the tiddler just as a collection of fields
>> that we store in a particular entry of our DB
>
> Then you could as well use the title
>
>
> I don't understand this last answer. Why should I use the title? That
> is indeed the problem!

Sorry, this is a misunderstanding. I thought you want to use the tiddler
fields as "multi attribute primary keys" (also known as combined primary
key). Say "prename" + "surname" + "adress" = primary key. So just ignore
this part of my answer.

-Felix

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello Mat

El martes, 26 de mayo de 2015, 13:18:29 (UTC+2), Mat escribió:
>
> Just two notes, to dismiss if nothing else:
> I believe the intention is to introduce version handling for tiddlers. I 
> assume this would mean saving copies of old versions(?)
>
Not exactly. I'm just talking about being able to rename a tiddler without 
losing track of it, and many other features that comes with unique IDS. 
Versioning is just one of those features.
 

> When we get the TWederation set up, unique tiddler IDs might become of 
> general interest.
>

This is something that confuses me. Jeremy has expressed his interest on 
federation, but all the comments and attitudes of an important part of the 
community are against the unique IDs. I don't know how do they plan to 
handle this.

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Mat]

Just two notes, to dismiss if nothing else:
I believe the intention is to introduce version handling for tiddlers. I 
assume this would mean saving copies of old versions(?)
When we get the TWederation set up, unique tiddler IDs might become of 
general interest.

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

El martes, 26 de mayo de 2015, 11:55:06 (UTC+2), Felix Küppers escribió:
>
>  Hi Danielo,
>
> I faced the same problem with tiddlymap. When just renaming a tiddler, you 
> have no information about what was the original title and what were the 
> original fields. This makes it hard for any external db or even a plugin 
> (like tiddlymap) to track which original object changed. 
>

I knew, In fact I was thinking about your comments and your tickets when I 
was writing this.
 


> Your problem of "losing related attachments" is not nice but you have NO 
> CHANCE to fix that as it is the tiddlywiki design and the same as 
> link-breaking when changing the title. 
>

I do have a chance! please, don't tell me NO CHANCE, I get depressed easily 
:P  You were my inspiration, your plugin is my inspiration! Reading this is 
impossible coming from you has more meaning than anyone else!
I think that if I use some kind of unique id, I can avoid losing 
attachments and any information since I just have to update the content of 
the row, keeping the same ID.
 

I would love to see Tiddlywiki assign a unique (=repeatedly choose highly 
> random value until unique) id to every tiddler it creates which cannot be 
> changed by the user and is hidden (like the e.g. the "draft.of" field we 
> cannot see or the "created" field that cannot be modified). So we can use 
> it for db operations or other. Tiddlywiki itself does not need to use this 
> id at all but it is nice for us to have it.
>

 Exactly. TW does not need to change, it can still working the same, just 
assign an unique ID, even if you don't use it! Maybe a plugin for this can 
be created. A good plugin, focused on that task, only adding an unique ID 
to every tiddler. Then every plugin that needs an unique ID can ask the 
user to include this plugin. This have several advantages, one of them is 
that your plugin does not need to take care of ID generation. The other 
advantage is, if every plugin adds an unique id we will end with tiddlers 
with one unique id per plugin,a central place for IDs solves this.

> Or should be treat the tiddler just as a collection of fields that we 
> store in a particular entry of our DB
>
>
> Then you could as well use the title
>

I don't understand this last answer. Why should I use the title? That is 
indeed the problem!

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Re: [tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Felix Küppers]

Hi Danielo,

I faced the same problem with tiddlymap. When just renaming a tiddler,
you have no information about what was the original title and what were
the original fields. This makes it hard for any external db or even a
plugin (like tiddlymap) to track which original object changed.
Therefore, I created an issue a few months ago that should append the
previous tiddler object to the changed tiddlers list during refresh so
we know the name and fields of the original tiddler.

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1550

> Sticking to the name as an unique identifier we will lose track of
> tiddler in every database system once you rename it.

Your problem of "losing related attachments" is not nice but you have NO
CHANCE to fix that as it is the tiddlywiki design and the same as
link-breaking when changing the title. I think the only reason
tiddlywiki preferred titles as primary key over ids is because in
contrast to a db the user is directly involved and linking titles is
easier to handle than linking ids or adding a layer that abstracts the
id. This decision is highly understandable because it simplifies
interaction and allows quick indexing by name but it comes with many
disadvantages as you described them already, especially that renaming a
tiddler will make you lose track. But as said, maybe
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/1550 could be a solution
here.

For tiddlymap I partly solved it like this: I give all tiddlers used in
the maps a unique id which helps me to trace name changes (because the
id stays the same) and therefore I can still display relations even when
you changed the name! When I detect dublicate ids (e.g. after cloning) I
automatically fix them (and display a dialog) right when they occur.

I would love to see Tiddlywiki assign a unique (=repeatedly choose
highly random value until unique) id to every tiddler it creates which
cannot be changed by the user and is hidden (like the e.g. the
"draft.of" field we cannot see or the "created" field that cannot be
modified). So we can use it for db operations or other. Tiddlywiki
itself does not need to use this id at all but it is nice for us to have it.

> Or should be treat the tiddler just as a collection of fields that we
> store in a particular entry of our DB

Then you could as well use the title

Hope it helps
Felix

On 26.05.2015 10:59, Danielo Rodríguez wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I know that the topic of titles as tiddlers ID have been discussed
> several times for TW itself. But what about external stores? This is
> directly related to sync adaptors and external databases as store for
> the tiddlers.
> Normally in databases there is a primary key, that is unique and
> incremental, and then the user data/fields. This have several
> advantages like traceability of a single element among all their
> changes. Sticking to the name as an unique identifier we will lose
> track of tiddler in every database system once you rename it. This is
> because how TW handles tiddlers: every change on a tiddler means
> deleting the old version and substitute it with a totally new one.
> This is against any DB system I know, and recently I have faced
> several problems (like loosing related attachments) because of that.
>
> That's why I'm asking community for the best approach. Should we stick
> to titles as IDs when we sync to a remote database? Or should be treat
> the tiddler just as a collection of fields that we store in a
> particular entry of our DB? Of course the syncadaptor should handle
> the conversion however it's needed.
>
> Thanks for your point of view.
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[tw] Should we stick to names as ID in external stores?

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Hello everyone,

I know that the topic of titles as tiddlers ID have been discussed several 
times for TW itself. But what about external stores? This is directly 
related to sync adaptors and external databases as store for the tiddlers.
Normally in databases there is a primary key, that is unique and 
incremental, and then the user data/fields. This have several advantages 
like traceability of a single element among all their changes. Sticking to 
the name as an unique identifier we will lose track of tiddler in every 
database system once you rename it. This is because how TW handles 
tiddlers: every change on a tiddler means deleting the old version and 
substitute it with a totally new one. This is against any DB system I know, 
and recently I have faced several problems (like loosing related 
attachments) because of that.

That's why I'm asking community for the best approach. Should we stick to 
titles as IDs when we sync to a remote database? Or should be treat the 
tiddler just as a collection of fields that we store in a particular entry 
of our DB? Of course the syncadaptor should handle the conversion however 
it's needed.

Thanks for your point of view.

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