Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[TonyM]

Josiah,

I enjoy viewing things from a philosophical and scientific perspective. I 
will share some ideas here

An interesting issue (for me) about software is its intrinsically 
> "determinate"--meaning it HAS to have fixed logic. At machine level its 0 
> or 1. Nothing else. The human brain is not like that. The "logic" of 
> "wetware", physical organic matter, and consciousness, does not work that 
> way. 
>

This is changing a little with machine learning and pre-Artificial 
Intelligence systems. Some ways of using computers are less and less 
determinate and they are getting harder to demonstrate why a computer 
answers X, and some will even answer Y the second time. However this* 
intrinsically "determinate"* is generally true. Determinism in computers is 
something we rely on, and a reason I do not think we will put too much 
effort to make "conscious" computers like us, except for experimentation. I 
agree consciousness does not work in a deterministic way and is is part of 
why it can induct and create so well. The key I believe is abstraction. 
 

>
> A body is not a car. A mind is not a machine.
>
> Whilst medical science needs reduction to "parts"/"units"/"fragments" in 
> order to make sense of the otherwise obscure situation (e.g. 
> appendicitis/brain fever) its always an APPROXIMATION, not a DETERMINATION.
>

I agree, but just as we must accept this, we must also accept we can learn 
more about how it works, it is not an unfathomable system. While some parts 
of it are most likely non-deterministic due to combinatorial complexity, 
much is deterministic but is currently undetermined by us.
 

>
> What IS interesting in TW is that it's degree of support to "wetware" 
> functioning is very unusual. Largely that is to do, I think, to do with its 
> "self-modifying" nature.
>

Philosophically if we can accept the argument there is a "single Objective 
Reality", life and the human brain has being built in this "single 
Objective Reality" and despite chance playing a substantial role, physical 
and intellectual survival strategies have being honed by the evolutionary 
process, continuously tested by the "single Objective Reality". This is why 
we can drive cars, our evolutionary thread has passed through multiple body 
types, the nervous system has being forcibly generalised as a result. With 
a little practice we can adapt our proprioception to many body shapes and 
operate them as if they were our bodies.

I would argue that TiddlyWiki has a philosophy behind it, that drives it 
towards an open and malleable platform, that maintains a generality, that 
increases its fitness within the software domain, and since we keep it 
tested in the "single Objective Reality" it will co-evolve with our 
wetware, and we should not be surprised if it comes to emulate human 
meaning and shaping.
 

>
> BTW, modern genetics is particularly relevant conceptually as its NOT 
> about strict determinism as that is not how (despite wider ideas) gene 
> manifestation happens. (see, e.g. Life Unfolding 
> 
> )
>

Agreed, and supported by my previous comments. TiddlyWiki evolves in an 
environment of computers and our minds, we add selective pressure to its 
evolution, and one key pressure is to maintain its plasticity.
 

>
> The upshot of what I am saying is that TW, by Quine Behaviour, approaches 
> a generic problem in Computer Science. I.e.: how to Properly emulate human 
> meaning shaping. 
>

I am sure you can see from my above notes, I have come to the same 
conclusion, the philosophy many of us share will keep it going in that 
direction. My key argument is I am not surprised tiddlywiki approaches a 
generic problem in Computer Science. There is convergence happening.
 

>
> That is about as far as I can get.
>

Thanks so much for you musings, It allows me to feel momentarily, that my 
obsession with TiddlyWiki, is justified and not a mental health problem :)

Yours Sincerely
Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM

An interesting issue (for me) about software is its intrinsically 
"determinate"--meaning it HAS to have fixed logic. At machine level its 0 
or 1. Nothing else. The human brain is not like that. The "logic" of 
"wetware", physical organic matter, and consciousness, does not work that 
way. 

A body is not a car. A mind is not a machine.

Whilst medical science needs reduction to "parts"/"units"/"fragments" in 
order to make sense of the otherwise obscure situation (e.g. 
appendicitis/brain fever) its always an APPROXIMATION, not a DETERMINATION.

What IS interesting in TW is that it's degree of support to "wetware" 
functioning is very unusual. Largely that is to do, I think, to do with its 
"self-modifying" nature.

BTW, modern genetics is particularly relevant conceptually as its NOT about 
strict determinism as that is not how (despite wider ideas) gene 
manifestation happens. (see, e.g. Life Unfolding 
)

The upshot of what I am saying is that TW, by Quine Behaviour, approaches a 
generic problem in Computer Science. I.e.: how to Properly emulate human 
meaning shaping. That is about as far as I can get.

Basta
Josiah

On Wednesday, 19 June 2019 14:47:17 UTC+2, TonyM wrote:
>
> Josiah,
>
> very interesting. I did not know about Monad but a brief review suggests 
> you may be right.
>
> Interestingly I was about to extend my last argument about how the tiddler 
> is the uniquely keyed object in the centre of tiddlywiki with the fact that 
> this rule is cast into stone, yet one can immediately code a solution to 
> shield the logic from this rule.
>
> Tiddlywiki provides excellent rules then gives you the tools to bend them.
>
> In recent decades we discovered the human brain was much more adaptable or 
> plastic than we imagined. I think tiddlywiki is a very plastic software 
> solution that works well with our plastic minds. Reminding me of one of my 
> first metaphors for tiddlywiki that it is like plasticine from which you 
> can build almost anything.
>
> I would be happy if twx was named with inspiration from moldable plastic, 
> clay or a version there of. Dough, Lego or macarno also comes to mind but 
> with Quine Monad and self referential qualities it is hard to find a common 
> analogy.
>
> Tiddlywiki stands alone but connected to everything.
>
> Universal software or like the invention of the general purpose computer, 
> the universal client the browser do we have general purpose software?
>
> my imagination is sparked.
>
> Tony
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[TonyM]

Josiah,

very interesting. I did not know about Monad but a brief review suggests you 
may be right.

Interestingly I was about to extend my last argument about how the tiddler is 
the uniquely keyed object in the centre of tiddlywiki with the fact that this 
rule is cast into stone, yet one can immediately code a solution to shield the 
logic from this rule.

Tiddlywiki provides excellent rules then gives you the tools to bend them.

In recent decades we discovered the human brain was much more adaptable or 
plastic than we imagined. I think tiddlywiki is a very plastic software 
solution that works well with our plastic minds. Reminding me of one of my 
first metaphors for tiddlywiki that it is like plasticine from which you can 
build almost anything.

I would be happy if twx was named with inspiration from moldable plastic, clay 
or a version there of. Dough, Lego or macarno also comes to mind but with Quine 
Monad and self referential qualities it is hard to find a common analogy.

Tiddlywiki stands alone but connected to everything.

Universal software or like the invention of the general purpose computer, the 
universal client the browser do we have general purpose software?

my imagination is sparked.

Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

I slept on it.

Joe's insight about The Monad is incredibly succinct and to the point about TW.

I know about monads from philosophy rather than CS. But it's the same territory.

When Leibnitz wrote the "Monadology" (giving name to a philosophy that first 
evolved in ancient Greece with Pythagoras) he pointed to the  seamless nature 
of experiencing. Monad as "undivided multiplicity".

In philosophy it tends to be associated with "idealism". I don't have space to 
explain what that means. But it is not a fault, it's an orientation. 

Of more recent philosophers Gendlin (A Process Model) and Whitehead (Process & 
Reality) understand the monad. Whitehead particularly is relevant in that he 
formalised a math philosophy. It's very close to CS.

"Process" philosophy is very different than most ideas of what happens. In 
particular it's very good at understanding how we derive novelty from 
re-combination of the prior. In brief, mostly we tend to think of explaining 
before we do, whilst in practice the new is only explainable after it's 
occurred.

Back to The TiddlyWiki...

Whilst my points are not gonna make any difference to most practical issues ... 

... I'd say that The TiddlyWiki is both a MONAD & a QUINE 

In a sense they are same type of thing, almost interchangeable terms. I think 
those two overview concepts are helpful.

If TWX were renamed THE MONAD I'd be happy 

Just thought you might be interested!

Best wishes
Josiah

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Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[TonyM]

Mat

And is tiddler philosophy the secret and necessary ingredient for this dynamism?

Perhaps it is, I wonder if its because the atomic element in tiddlywiki, the 
tiddler, is front and centre, a human scale object we all learn about. The 
tiddler, effectively a unique key record is not hidden in rows within a 
database table, nor losing its uniqueness inside some other category. Tiddlers 
live and must be unique within a tiddlywiki, all of which is a clearly defined 
human scope.

Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[Mat]

>
> * wikitext shortcuts (ie ''bold'', __italic__ etc) and macros
> * widgets
> * filters
>



Very appealing with such high level views. Makes me wonder why we have this 
particular division of "things" that control out data. We have clearly not 
aimed for the ruling paradigm that distinguishes between "physical 
structure" (HTML), "style" (CSS) and "actions" (JS) - or maybe this 
comparison is irrelevant. The "wikitext shortcuts" do seem to be about 
styling, but macros can be anything(?) more like a container. Widgets... 
are placed out as if they were html/structure elements but they are really 
small creatures; things that do stuff. And filters... I agree with Joe that 
these are really something special. We treat the filter operators almost 
like physical manifestations... the cutter, the end-applier, the inspector, 
etc. I dabbled with SQL long ago and while filters are of course central to 
any DB, they felt like more of an activity than a thing. Maybe it is the 
tiddler aspect of things that make them feel physical?

Does any other "text tool" exist where you can manipulate textual content 
in any comparable way? And is tiddler philosophy the secret and necessary 
ingredient for this dynamism?

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[TonyM]

Mat

Actualy I do not find html and css limited too much in tiddlywiki except as I 
believe we both acknowledge, they are limited in such a way the tiddlywiki 
platform needs to deliver its promises. A Quine, its ui, its tiddlers, tag and 
fields.

As I learn more I can see how even if we need to build a plugin we can use any 
JavaScript html and css feature and technology we want. It just must conform to 
the platforms requirements and then it can thrive in the tiddlywiki ecosystem.

The compliance cost is much less than the advantages gained by participating in 
the tiddlywiki environment because tiddlywiki delivers in many different ways. 
File server ui data models interface software development file and server 
hosting and other plugins and macros.

This is a win win exponential.

Tony

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

I think part of the issue is that there large variation about the scope of 
what "markup" means.

The term "markup" was originally derived from printer's (blue or red pen) 
annotations that were instructions for the layout of physical type on a 
printing press. This later evolved into formalised typesetting systems. 
LaTex and troff emerged, in turn from those (and as Jed mentions, PDF 
partly carries the heritage of that and is still used by publishers as a 
way to submit a documents to printers). Then there is HTML, SGML, XML etc. 
Long history, several directions. (See here for a reasonable overview: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup_language#History_of_markup_languages)  
A major issue that  emerged over the years is to what extent they are 
"presentational", "procedural", "descriptive" or "semantic".

MarkDown and cousins is a "lightweight markup language" (LML) ... 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_markup_language

Coming to your question with regards to WikiText in TW ... I think Jed is 
likely close with "macro language". It "does things" you would not normally 
think of as just a LML system.

Its worth underling that its possible in TW to seamlessly add new markup 
parsers, or modify existing ones. In other words, its "markup potential" is 
not inherently any specific LML, rather its, in a way, a macro language 
that can define them.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 12:33:10 UTC+2, Mat wrote:
>
> In the docs  it says 
>
> WikiText is a concise, expressive way of typing a wide range of text 
>> formatting, hypertext and interactive features. It allows you to focus on 
>> writing without a complex user interface getting in the way. It is designed 
>> to be familiar for users of MarkDown 
>> , but with more of a focus 
>> on linking and the interactive features.
>
>
> but if I were to describe it to coders, I'd say it is a "high level 
> language" but is it a pure "markup language"? And could it at all be called 
> any of these; declarative, imperative, scripting, procedural, functional 
> etc?
>
> BTW, that quote above...  there is an irony here. Because of TW's 
> generality, I find a lot of my time is *not* spent on "focus on writing 
> without a complex user interface getting in the way". Instead a lot of 
> time is spent on customizing the content to have it shown 'my way' and that 
> does involve complex UI matters.
>
> <:-)
>

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[Mat]

@Tony

While what you write is, of course, true, I think it is more fair to not go 
beyond the native tools provided by TW when describing what WikiText is. 
Any computer language can be anti-abstracted down to machine code but the 
point (or at least my point) is to stay in the layer we're at.

That said, maybe TW makes it unusually easy to integrate and break out of 
the immediate layer one is in compared to other "languages". I'm not 
qualified to tell.

...but on the other hand, if one insists on bringing up JS+HTML+CSS then 
what TW allows is clearly more limited since TW implements restrictions on 
what to do, especially with JS.

<:-)
 

>

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[TonyM]

Some thoughts on this subject

In many ways we confuse wiki text with the macros and widgets we use to 
manipulate wiki text, tiddlers and fields further. Beyond markdown, and 
camelcase links we move away from wiki text and use macros and widgets. Then in 
many cases the macros and widgets generate wiki text that is rendered to be 
displayed. 

In many ways macros are not much more than wiki text snipits although they feel 
like more.

The thing is we can use highly customisable widgets with lots of parameters, 
write our own macros and use text references to fields, with text the default, 
to build what we want. Plugings allow us to import tiddlywiki widgets and 
macros to further enhance what we can do. 

With wikitext macros and widgets we can program what we want. There is only 
wiki text macros and widgets on top of the tiddlywiki platform that we program 
with not a programming language persay. However given we can use css and html 
as well, then if these are programming languages then we can program in them, 
or program widgets with JavaScript.

Tiddlywiki is a platform on which we can use multiple internet technologies to 
build websites and applications, serve these over http/s and includes 
server-side features.  

Tiddlywiki is programmable using these various technologies but is not a fully 
defined programming language although it approaches one. Its key is as a 
platform, it provides its own environment to handle and manipulate the objects 
it defines as save itself. Its user interface is defined within its own 
platform and data structures. All of which are ultimately presented to the 
browser as a html css JavaScript application.

Being as extensible as it is you can incorporate any technology that can be 
used in a browser as long as it conforms to the platforms requirements.

The saving mechanisiums allow tiddlywiki to save back to file or multiple 
server configurations to ensure persistence.

I think we program on top of the tiddlywiki platform, our programming is stored 
in tiddlywiki but is realised in the browser, we program on tiddlywiki in a 
range of ways but not in a tiddlywiki language. We program on not in tiddlywiki.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[Mat]

Thanks for reply

I don't think that WikiText is a turning complete language, but I think it 
> would fit best as a macro language.
>

Yes, my impression is we've come at it from another angle. Rather than 
Jeremy setting out to create a language, the 'commands' have instead grown 
on a need basis to manage the information and to customize the 
presentation... or maybe that's also how Turing complete languages come 
about.

I think the atomic nature of tiddlers is the driving force behind the 
programming aspects in TW. We need to slice'n dice them tids so we need 
precise instructions for this. Makes sense I guess... anything complex 
would need rules to become orderly.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: [meta] WikiText - what type of language is it?

[Jed Carty]

I don't think that WikiText is a turning complete language, but I think it 
would fit best as a macro language.

There are a lot of descriptions you could argue fit, at least Interpreted, 
Embeddable, Logic, List-based, Declarative 

It also has similarities to PostScript.

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