RE: [time-nuts] Xtal Oscillator Aging

2005-10-26 Thread Richard \(Rick\) Karlquist \(N6RK\)
>It has nothing to do with "throwing off atoms". A Xtal is actually a

This only happens in very low quality crystals that have impurities on
the surface.

>Going in the other direction, the mechanical resonant frequency
>changes with time because, as the xtal vibrates, microscopic cracks in
>the structure of the quartz break apart. Running at high power makes
>the crystal generate these microscopic faults at a faster rate; this
>then causes the oscillator to have poorer long-term stability. When an
>xtal is left vibrating (oscillating) in an undisturbed environment,
>the rate of cracking of the quartz decreases, and the oscillator is
>said to "age" to its final frequency.

The 10811 scientists agree that microscopic cracks are the main unresolved
issue regarding crystal stability (there are many other possible issues,
but they have been beat to death, at least in the top tier crystal fabs).
OTOH, at HP we never saw any drive power related aging effects.  The drive
levels we used had some effect on the frequency (as shown in my E1938 paper)
so we were limited because of that issue.  Also, the g forces were so high
that we couldn't go a lot higher without danger of losing the plating
metallization.

The effect on S/N ratio is such that you need a certain amount of drive
to get a good noise floor at 10 kHz (which is only important in a minority
of applications).  Close in, the S/N ratio is determined by the quartz
not the electronics, and running higher crystal drive doesn't help.  It may
even degrade short term stability.

>But if you subject that same crystal to a mechanical jolt will force
>some new cracks and re-start the aging "diffusion" process. Ditto
>turning the oscillator on & off or a thermal shock can aggravate the
>aging.

At HP, we never saw any significant aging shift due to turning the
oscillator
on and off (while maintaining the oven at the same temperature).  OTOH,
it is definitely true that any oven temperature change will have a settling
time effect on aging.


>If the metal can or glass envelope around the xtal outgasses, some of
>the resulting crud (a very scientific term!) from the envelope and
>seal will deposit onto the quartz and also cause aging. For this
>reason, only the cheapest crystals are housed in a metal can with a
>solder seal; cold welding of the can is a much better procedure; and a
>glass envelope is the best. Cheaper than cheap are the WW2 "FT243"

Many decades ago, glass was the "gold standard".   However, cold well metal
cans have long since superceded glass.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
(formerly HP Santa Clara Division)


___
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts


[time-nuts] connection info for HP hockey puck oscillator E1938-60207

2005-10-26 Thread Stan Searing
Hello,
  I have a couple of these interesting shaped oscillators
and was wondering if anyone has a manual, specs, or even
just the pinout of the 25 pin D connector.  I'd like to
fire one up and see how it does.

  I'm new to this list.  By way of introduction, I'm
inexplicably interested in old HP Nixie tube (and earlier)
frequency counters.  I have collected about 40 counters
and eventually would like to put up a web page on them.
(And somehow that got me collecting standards and clocks, too...)

  On the hockey puck subject, I have a few extra of the
old Motorola 5 Volt GPS antennas.  I occasionally put them on
eBay, but since they were mentioned a couple weeks ago in this
list as being good for timing, I thought I'd mention that I'd
sell or trade directly (I hope this isn't out of line).  They
came with some old Magnavox GPS Engines (maybe model 900578-801-5).
I have no connection info on these.  If these big old GPSs have
any particular value or are easy to use, let me know.

  Lastly, my old Tracor 527A does not work on it's most sensitive
range.  If someone has a spare manual or a copy available,
please let me know.

Thanks,
Stan




___
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts


RE: [time-nuts] Xtal Oscillator Aging

2005-10-26 Thread jim_johnson
Hi,

  I posed this question to Jack Kusters, now retired
from HP/Agilent.  He and Charles Adams commercialized
the SC-cut crystal for HP in the 10811A oscillator.  He
gave me permission to post his response on the reflector.

Jim Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

===

Hi Jim,

In addition to everything Tom Clark said (I agree in general with his 
explanation), there is another aging mechanism associated with stress.  When 
the crystal blank is manufactured, it is sawn, lapped, ground, etched, and 
otherwise abused.  All of this produces stress in the blank.  In addition, 
there are mounting stresses that arise because of the way the blank is mounted 
on its header, surface stresses that develop because the electrode material 
when evaporated and then condensed on the surface shrinks as it cools.

All of these result in long-term aging as these stresses need to equilibrate 
out.  In addition, there are other stress related mechanisms that may result in 
either long- or short- term aging.  The quartz material is anisotropic, the 
mounts, electrode material are isotropic.

So, lets assume that we've had the crystal at an elevated, constant 
temperature.  Over a period of time, all stresses, material, mount, electrode, 
cracks, etc. equilibrate to their lowest energy level and it appears that aging 
has stopped.

Now, take it down in temperature.  The anisotropic quartz and the isotropic 
mount and electrode, have different contraction rates, so the overall system 
now has a new set of stresses.

Let the unit come to full equilibrium at the new, lower temperature.  Now take 
it up in temperature to where it was before.  Now we see a whole new set of 
aging and stress relief.  The only virtue is that aging due to cracks and 
material stress from manufacturing processes should be mostly gone, so the unit 
should come to equilibrium much faster.

One further comment, glass sealed crystals are not necessarily the best way to 
seal a crystal.  It takes heat from a source sufficiently elevated in 
temperature to melt the glass.  This tends to cause contaminents to migrate 
from the area being sealed to a cooler spot in the package, usually the 
crystal.  Contaminents come from gasses from the torch or from junk trapped in 
the glass.

The cleanest mount one can do is a cold-weld seal under proper conditions.
For example, the HP crystals were put into a vacuum furnace, heated to 300+ 
deg-C overnite at 10E-7 torr with the can stored next to the crystal.  After 
reducing the temperature to about 80-84 deg-C, the crystal was frequency plated 
to within several parts in 10E7.  After that, the mount was placed in the can, 
the temperature raised up to about 150 deg-C, stabilised in temperature and 
vacuum, then cold-welded.

Done properly, there is essentially no contamination inside the crystal 
assembly, most of the other stresses are gone, and the typical HP SC-cut would 
reach an aging rate of better than 1E-7 per day, within the first 5 days.

Best regards,
Jack Kusters

==

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Clark, W3IWI
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:21 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Xtal Oscillator Aging


   Brooke (no relation) commented

Hi Richard:
>
> It's my understanding that this optimization can be done by changing 
> the oscillator power level at the crystal.
>
> In the case of the 32768 Hz watch crystal, it must be run a very low 
> power and it has a very low aging rate when compared to higher 
> frequency crystals that are typically run at higher power levels.  I 
> think this is related to the crystal throwing off atoms, so more power 
> means more acceleration and more atoms thrown off.
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke, N6GCE

   It has nothing to do with "throwing off atoms". A Xtal is actually a
   mechanical oscillator, with the quartz slab vibrating (in either its
   fundamental mode, or on an odd overtone); quartz is a piezo-electric
   material so the voltage across the pins of the xtal has a direct
   connection to the mechanical vibration. When an xtal oscillator starts
   up, the associated amplifier generates noise, which then starts the
   xtal vibrating, which generates signal at the right frequency and a
   feedback loop is set up. When you crank up the power to the mechanical
   resonator, the signal increases with respect to the background noise
   (i.e. S/N gets better) which improves the short-term stability.
   Going in the other direction, the mechanical resonant frequency
   changes with time because, as the xtal vibrates, microscopic cracks in
   the structure of the quartz break apart. Running at high power makes
   the crystal generate these microscopic faults at a faster rate; this
   then causes the oscillator to have poorer long-term stability. When an
   xtal is lef

Re: [time-nuts] connection info for HP hockey puck oscillatorE1938-60207

2005-10-26 Thread Tom Van Baak
Hi Stan,

Welcome (at last!).

See if the DB25 hockey puck oscillator looks like this:
http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/e1938a/

I have a Tracor 527A manual you can borrow - unless
some else on the list has already scanned it (?).

/tvb
http://www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm



___
time-nuts mailing list
time-nuts@febo.com
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts