Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 31, Issue 85
On Tuesday 27 February 2007 11:00 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, I have the Austron 1210-D manual. Who would have the time to scan the manual for posting. Lee Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Austron 1201-D (John Ackermann N8UR) 2. Re: Austron 1201-D (Mike Feher) 3. Re: Linux code for Prologix GPIB/USB (Ulrich Bangert) 4. Re: Austron 1201-D (Rob Kimberley) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:31:02 -0500 From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Rob, I've been looking for the 1210D manual as well. Do you have more than one copy? If not, perhaps we can arrange a scanning party... John Rob Kimberley wrote: Had, Do you mean 1210D? If so, the answer is yes. About an inch thick with several fold out drawings. I'm in UK. Will cost approx ?18 (~$35US) to air mail (untracked). International Signed for tracked options would be more expensive. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Had Sent: 27 February 2007 00:46 To: time-nuts-febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Greetings nuts, Would anyone have a manual for a Austron 1201-D Clock. Any format or I can scan. Thanks, Hadley, K7MLR A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed. This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:13:33 -0500 From: Mike Feher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I can use one also as I have a 1210D. Earlier inquiries for a manual never received a response. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 908-902-3831 - cell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Rob, I've been looking for the 1210D manual as well. Do you have more than one copy? If not, perhaps we can arrange a scanning party... John Rob Kimberley wrote: Had, Do you mean 1210D? If so, the answer is yes. About an inch thick with several fold out drawings. I'm in UK. Will cost approx ?18 (~$35US) to air mail (untracked). International Signed for tracked options would be more expensive. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Had Sent: 27 February 2007 00:46 To: time-nuts-febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Greetings nuts, Would anyone have a manual for a Austron 1201-D Clock. Any format or I can scan. Thanks, Hadley, K7MLR A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed. This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 31, Issue 85
I'm in process of scanning 1210D and will complete it tonight and post a link. Cheers Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee-Bradshaw Sent: 28 February 2007 14:16 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 31, Issue 85 On Tuesday 27 February 2007 11:00 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, I have the Austron 1210-D manual. Who would have the time to scan the manual for posting. Lee Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Austron 1201-D (John Ackermann N8UR) 2. Re: Austron 1201-D (Mike Feher) 3. Re: Linux code for Prologix GPIB/USB (Ulrich Bangert) 4. Re: Austron 1201-D (Rob Kimberley) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:31:02 -0500 From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Rob, I've been looking for the 1210D manual as well. Do you have more than one copy? If not, perhaps we can arrange a scanning party... John Rob Kimberley wrote: Had, Do you mean 1210D? If so, the answer is yes. About an inch thick with several fold out drawings. I'm in UK. Will cost approx ?18 (~$35US) to air mail (untracked). International Signed for tracked options would be more expensive. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Had Sent: 27 February 2007 00:46 To: time-nuts-febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Greetings nuts, Would anyone have a manual for a Austron 1201-D Clock. Any format or I can scan. Thanks, Hadley, K7MLR A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed. This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:13:33 -0500 From: Mike Feher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I can use one also as I have a 1210D. Earlier inquiries for a manual never received a response. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 908-902-3831 - cell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Rob, I've been looking for the 1210D manual as well. Do you have more than one copy? If not, perhaps we can arrange a scanning party... John Rob Kimberley wrote: Had, Do you mean 1210D? If so, the answer is yes. About an inch thick with several fold out drawings. I'm in UK. Will cost approx ?18 (~$35US) to air mail (untracked). International Signed for tracked options would be more expensive. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Had Sent: 27 February 2007 00:46 To: time-nuts-febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 1201-D Greetings nuts, Would anyone have a manual for a Austron 1201-D Clock. Any format or I can scan. Thanks, Hadley, K7MLR A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed. This message (including any attachments)
[time-nuts] Circuit diagram for Efratom FRK-HLN 5 Mhz oscillator board
Hi folks, please allow me to ask the group on behalf of the future member Nigel Allinson whether anyone has an schematic diagram of the 5 MHz low noise oscillator board that Efratom used in the HLN (!) version of the FRK. TIA Ulrich Bangert, DF6JB ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
Rob, thanks so much for providing this! This has been one of the most elusive manuals out there, so it's really great to have it available now. Thanks! John Rob Kimberley said the following on 02/28/2007 02:36 PM: Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
Hi Rob: Do you have the left side of the drawing on page 168 PC Board Assy, Divider? Thanks Have Fun, Brooke Clarke w/Java http://www.PRC68.com w/o Java http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml http://www.precisionclock.com Rob Kimberley wrote: Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
thanks Rob, great service for the members. Had, K7MLR At 11:36 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bare Arms, shall not be infringed. This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Circuit diagram for Efratom FRK-HLN 5 Mhz oscillator board
Hello Ulrich and hello Nigel (nice to meet you here as well!), I would like to help if possible, as I am owner of a FRK-HLN with 5 MHz output. I own as well a operation and maintenance manual for the FRK (H or L) , but I realized quite soon, that the content of my oscillator with 5 MHz is quite different as described and shown in am. manual, talking of the different 10 MHz circuits and boards, not mentioning the 5 MHz issue. I tried to find out the differences, but I stopped. Since then I am as well looking for the correct manual and circuits for the FRK-HLN-1A2B2A, EFRATOM Part No. 703-200-8 5 MHz. Nigel, of course I am interested to help and to exchange informations, I have anyway to answer your last letter. I wonder if somebody could help with the special issue of manual. greetings to all, Arnold, DK2WT On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:53 +0100, Ulrich Bangert wrote: Hi folks, please allow me to ask the group on behalf of the future member Nigel Allinson whether anyone has an schematic diagram of the 5 MHz low noise oscillator board that Efratom used in the HLN (!) version of the FRK. TIA Ulrich Bangert, DF6JB ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
WELL SPOTTED! Will update and upload corrected version shortly. Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: 28 February 2007 20:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted Hi Rob: Do you have the left side of the drawing on page 168 PC Board Assy, Divider? Thanks Have Fun, Brooke Clarke w/Java http://www.PRC68.com w/o Java http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml http://www.precisionclock.com Rob Kimberley wrote: Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted
Missing page inserted and file uploaded again to http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Rob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: 28 February 2007 20:05 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1210D Manual Posted Hi Rob: Do you have the left side of the drawing on page 168 PC Board Assy, Divider? Thanks Have Fun, Brooke Clarke w/Java http://www.PRC68.com w/o Java http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/PRC68COM.shtml http://www.precisionclock.com Rob Kimberley wrote: Several man hours later.. the scanned version of the manual including all variants -01, -02, -03 (these are in Chapter 7). Posted on my site at http://www.timing-consultants.com/images/Manuals/1210D/1210D.pdf Notes: 1) Chapter 7 parts lists are as good as I can get them, with the copy I have. 2) Fold out drawings have been done in two halves. Would have been nice to have a larger scanner. Hope you can manage with the split drawings etc. Cheers Rob Kimberley ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Circuit diagram for Efratom FRK-HLN 5 Mhz oscillator board
These folks have one for sale, they may be able to help http://www.aptecelectronics.com/prod03.htm On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:25:39 +0100, Arnold Tibus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Ulrich and hello Nigel (nice to meet you here as well!), I would like to help if possible, as I am owner of a FRK-HLN with 5 MHz output. I own as well a operation and maintenance manual for the FRK (H or L) , but I realized quite soon, that the content of my oscillator with 5 MHz is quite different as described and shown in am. manual, talking of the different 10 MHz circuits and boards, not mentioning the 5 MHz issue. I tried to find out the differences, but I stopped. Since then I am as well looking for the correct manual and circuits for the FRK-HLN-1A2B2A, EFRATOM Part No. 703-200-8 5 MHz. Nigel, of course I am interested to help and to exchange informations, I have anyway to answer your last letter. I wonder if somebody could help with the special issue of manual. greetings to all, Arnold, DK2WT On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:53 +0100, Ulrich Bangert wrote: Hi folks, please allow me to ask the group on behalf of the future member Nigel Allinson whether anyone has an schematic diagram of the 5 MHz low noise oscillator board that Efratom used in the HLN (!) version of the FRK. TIA Ulrich Bangert, DF6JB ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
Hello all: I considering a do-it-yourself GPSDO, and I started by looking for a good OCXO. I have been given a quote for a unit with the following phase-noise numbers: -120 dBc/Hz at 10 Hz -145 dBc/Hz at 100 Hz -155 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz -160 dBc/Hz at 10 KHz -160 dBc/Hz at 100 KHz My question is this: Are these good specs? They look pretty good to me, quite comparable to the HP 10811 numbers. Thanks, -- Larry Gadallah, VE6VQ/W7 lgadallah AT gmail DOT com PGP Sig: 616D 4E52 CF1F 3FEC FFFB F11B 7DB9 C79A EA7E B25B ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
Larry Gadallah wrote: Hello all: I considering a do-it-yourself GPSDO, and I started by looking for a good OCXO. I have been given a quote for a unit with the following phase-noise numbers: -120 dBc/Hz at 10 Hz -145 dBc/Hz at 100 Hz -155 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz -160 dBc/Hz at 10 KHz -160 dBc/Hz at 100 KHz My question is this: Are these good specs? They look pretty good to me, quite comparable to the HP 10811 numbers. Thanks, Larry Whilst these phase noise figures are around 20dB or so worse than the state of the art, they are adequate. The short term frequency stability is determined more by the OCXO's Allan variance as a function of averaging time. In particular the Allan variance for averaging times from 1 sec to 1000 sec or more is significnt. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication
Hi all, How difficult is it to multiply a frequency standard from 10MHz to 100MHz? I found the recent discussion about amplifying a 10MHz OCXO output from 5dBm to 15dBm very interesting. Thanks Bruce for sending me that common base circuit schematics - I had quite a lot of fun simulating it and brushing up on my electronics and RF knowledge. One down side to that circuit is that it operates from quite a high voltage (24V) causing quite a lot of dissipation in the amplifying transistor. When the operating voltage is lowered the harmonic content increases (as expected), but most of it can be fixed with an output BP filter as Bruce mentioned. The other day I stumbled across the following article on Wenzel's website: http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/RFDesign2.pdf It describes a way in which an analogue odd-order frequency multiplier could be built cheaply with superior noise characteristics. This circuit that is described is really simple and quite ingenious. Unfortunately, I would like to multiply by 10 (an even number) so I still need a way to at least multiply by 2. Commercial low-noise multipliers are in general much more expensive than my OCXO. So now I am curious if there is an easy and reliable way to get a 10MHz sine up to 100MHz without degrading the phase noise. Regards, Stephan Sandenbergh ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication
As always, without degrading the phase noise is only half of the spec. The other half is at offsets of X Hz and beyond. What is X? It can make all the difference. I'd look at using a PLL to lock a 100 MHz VCXO to your 10 MHz source. If you are willing to lock one crystal oscillator to another, the loop bandwidth can be made very low, ruling out any noise degradation at the offsets you're most likely to be interested in. State-of-the-art in low-noise harmonic multiplication seems to be the nonlinear transmission-line multipliers sold by Picosecond Pulse Labs, but they are targeted at GHz-and-up applications. Perhaps there are ways to realize similar structures with varicaps and lumped inductors in the HF-to-lower-VHF region...? -- john, KE5FX Hi all, How difficult is it to multiply a frequency standard from 10MHz to 100MHz? ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication
Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: How difficult is it to multiply a frequency standard from 10MHz to 100MHz? The other day I stumbled across the following article on Wenzel's website: http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/RFDesign2.pdf It describes a way in which an analogue odd-order frequency multiplier could be built cheaply with superior noise characteristics. This circuit that is described is really simple and quite ingenious. Unfortunately, I would like I remember that article from when it was first published. It is quite clever, but has no special phase noise advantage compared to any other passive limiter or passive frequency doubler based on a full wave rectifier. You need to be more specific about your multiplier requirements. When I worked for Zeta Labs, we used to get vague RFQ's like this for multipliers, and then have to develop a specification. That is almost more difficult that actually building the multiplier. Are you after good Allan deviation or low phase noise? Do you care about phase noise floor? How clean is the original oscillator? In the HP 8662, they double a 10811 three times to 80 MHz and then strip off the phase noise floor sidebands with a crystal filter. Regarding X10: I suggest you double to 20 MHz, take that as an intermediate output, and then quadruple the 20 MHz to 80 MHz. Then mix the 80 and 20 to get 100 MHz. As far as heroically multiplying directly by 5: been there, done that, got the coffee mug and T-shirt. Don't do this at home kids. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication
Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: Hi all, How difficult is it to multiply a frequency standard from 10MHz to 100MHz? I found the recent discussion about amplifying a 10MHz OCXO output from 5dBm to 15dBm very interesting. Thanks Bruce for sending me that common base circuit schematics - I had quite a lot of fun simulating it and brushing up on my electronics and RF knowledge. One down side to that circuit is that it operates from quite a high voltage (24V) causing quite a lot of dissipation in the amplifying transistor. When the operating voltage is lowered the harmonic content increases (as expected), but most of it can be fixed with an output BP filter as Bruce mentioned. The other day I stumbled across the following article on Wenzel's website: http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/RFDesign2.pdf It describes a way in which an analogue odd-order frequency multiplier could be built cheaply with superior noise characteristics. This circuit that is described is really simple and quite ingenious. Unfortunately, I would like to multiply by 10 (an even number) so I still need a way to at least multiply by 2. Commercial low-noise multipliers are in general much more expensive than my OCXO. So now I am curious if there is an easy and reliable way to get a 10MHz sine up to 100MHz without degrading the phase noise. Regards, Stephan Sandenbergh ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts Stephen Use a Wenzel style odd order multiplier to multiply by 5 after a frequency doubler. For the frequency doubler either use a diode frequency doubler followed by an amplifier or a JFET push-push pair with common source RF feedback as a frequency doubler. The JFET frequency doubler will have very low phase noise if designed properly. For circuit see: http://www.febo.com/time-nuts/Bruce_Griffiths/JFET_frequency_doublers It is also possible to use a pair of bipolar transistors in a pushpush doubler with common emitter RF feedback, the phase noise will also be very low, however biasing the bipolar transistors is a little more difficult than biasing a pair of FETS. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
On 2/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Message: 6 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:05:38 +1300 From: Dr Bruce Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Larry Gadallah wrote: Hello all: I considering a do-it-yourself GPSDO, and I started by looking for a good OCXO. I have been given a quote for a unit with the following phase-noise numbers: -120 dBc/Hz at 10 Hz -145 dBc/Hz at 100 Hz -155 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz -160 dBc/Hz at 10 KHz -160 dBc/Hz at 100 KHz My question is this: Are these good specs? They look pretty good to me, quite comparable to the HP 10811 numbers. Thanks, Larry Whilst these phase noise figures are around 20dB or so worse than the state of the art, they are adequate. The short term frequency stability is determined more by the OCXO's Allan variance as a function of averaging time. In particular the Allan variance for averaging times from 1 sec to 1000 sec or more is significnt. Bruce Hello Bruce: Thanks for your comments. I should have mentioned that these numbers were from a COTS OCXO, and that it is priced in the $200 range. Ignoring the price, can you obtain 20 dB better performance from a COTS device? Is it better to simply look for a good HP 10811 (in this price range)? I understand the issue of Allan deviation versus frequency stability, but my main purpose for this oscillator is as a local oscillator reference for radios, where increased phase noise quickly causes the receiver performance to degrade. Cheers, -- Larry Gadallah, VE6VQ/W7 lgadallah AT gmail DOT com PGP Sig: 616D 4E52 CF1F 3FEC FFFB F11B 7DB9 C79A EA7E B25B ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication
Hi Rick, You are absolutely right - I should've mentioned the specs first. It is an Oscilloqaurtz 8788 locked to GPS. Phase noise at 10MHz: Hz dBc/Hz 1 -100 10 -130 100 -152 1e3 -160 1e4 -165 1e5 -165 1e6 -165 Allan dev: 1.10e-12 (not locked) I suspect that it shouldn't be too hard to preserve these specs. (that is apart from the obvious 20dBc/Hz increase due to the 10x multiplication). Noise floor is of importance since I'm clocking ADCs and DDSs. These are affected by high frequency jitter. I've got more than one of these crystals/ADCs/DDSs which I would like to keep reasonably synced (the reason for the common-view GPS) so the longer time scales are also important. I just noted that the noise level of that diode multiplier in the previously mentioned article is way below that of my OCXO. From there my curiosity. I agree that phase-locking to 100MHz oscillator is the best way to go, but as a first iteration multiplication is a good start. Judging by your reply the x2 and x5 approach should probably be avoided? Regards, Stephan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Karlquist Sent: 01 March 2007 01:42 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low noise frequency multiplication Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: How difficult is it to multiply a frequency standard from 10MHz to 100MHz? The other day I stumbled across the following article on Wenzel's website: http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/RFDesign2.pdf It describes a way in which an analogue odd-order frequency multiplier could be built cheaply with superior noise characteristics. This circuit that is described is really simple and quite ingenious. Unfortunately, I would like I remember that article from when it was first published. It is quite clever, but has no special phase noise advantage compared to any other passive limiter or passive frequency doubler based on a full wave rectifier. You need to be more specific about your multiplier requirements. When I worked for Zeta Labs, we used to get vague RFQ's like this for multipliers, and then have to develop a specification. That is almost more difficult that actually building the multiplier. Are you after good Allan deviation or low phase noise? Do you care about phase noise floor? How clean is the original oscillator? In the HP 8662, they double a 10811 three times to 80 MHz and then strip off the phase noise floor sidebands with a crystal filter. Regarding X10: I suggest you double to 20 MHz, take that as an intermediate output, and then quadruple the 20 MHz to 80 MHz. Then mix the 80 and 20 to get 100 MHz. As far as heroically multiplying directly by 5: been there, done that, got the coffee mug and T-shirt. Don't do this at home kids. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
Larry Gadallah wrote: On 2/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Message: 6 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:05:38 +1300 From: Dr Bruce Griffiths [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise? To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Larry Gadallah wrote: Hello all: I considering a do-it-yourself GPSDO, and I started by looking for a good OCXO. I have been given a quote for a unit with the following phase-noise numbers: -120 dBc/Hz at 10 Hz -145 dBc/Hz at 100 Hz -155 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz -160 dBc/Hz at 10 KHz -160 dBc/Hz at 100 KHz My question is this: Are these good specs? They look pretty good to me, quite comparable to the HP 10811 numbers. Thanks, Larry Whilst these phase noise figures are around 20dB or so worse than the state of the art, they are adequate. The short term frequency stability is determined more by the OCXO's Allan variance as a function of averaging time. In particular the Allan variance for averaging times from 1 sec to 1000 sec or more is significnt. Bruce Hello Bruce: Thanks for your comments. I should have mentioned that these numbers were from a COTS OCXO, and that it is priced in the $200 range. Ignoring the price, can you obtain 20 dB better performance from a COTS device? Is it better to simply look for a good HP 10811 (in this price range)? I understand the issue of Allan deviation versus frequency stability, but my main purpose for this oscillator is as a local oscillator reference for radios, where increased phase noise quickly causes the receiver performance to degrade. Cheers, ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
Larry Gadallah wrote: Hello Bruce: Larry Obtaining a lower phase noise COTS OCXO in this price range is unlikely unless Wenzel oscillators are unusually cheap. http://www.wenzel.com/catalog.html#HF%20Oscillators Is Wenzel the leader of the pack in this sort of technology? I know that there are a number of players (i.e. Valpey, Bliley, etc.). They appear to be. Austron also used to make low phase noise oscillators. Valpey and Bliley don't appear to offer anything comparable. I don't need 100 Mhz, only 10 Mhz, and I'd be looking to discipline this oscillator directly rather than rely on another GPSDO. All other things being equal, I'd rather just find an HP Z3801A, but the supply seems to have dried up and those that do appear these days seem to be overpriced. The phase noise of these is at least 10-15dB shy of the state of the art. They are used in at least one Radio astronomy application in the local oscillator distribution system of an antenna array that operates at frequencies of up to 40GHz. I can only imagine the constraints of radio astronomy, where precise timing and phase are required... The constraints are eased a little for an array where phase noise in the local oscillator distribution system is common to all elements of the array. Radio astronomy signals are largely just incoherent noise after all, which is why in the absence of strong interference 1-2 bit ADCs suffice. Thanks again for the info. Cheers, ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt
Is the group purchase of the thunderbolt GPSDO still in the works? WA4DFS Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Good Phase-noise?
Larry, The Oscilloquartz 8788 is available brand new for $340 at 1ea. It's phase noise spec is superior to the 10811A it requires only +12Vdc. You might check them out. Pete Rawson ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
[time-nuts] Any PC software to gen. IRIG B
I have this DATUM clock that can free run or can be programed with an IRIGB signal. I wonder if anyone has some software to generate the IRIG formated signal with a PC or even with Micro Processor A converter to take the output from my Z3801A and send IRIG B to my clock would be even better. Thanks Bill K7NOM . ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Any PC software to gen. IRIG B
Hi, Bill, *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 28-Feb-07 at 19:24 Bill Janssen wrote: I have this DATUM clock that can free run or can be programed with an IRIGB signal. I wonder if anyone has some software to generate the IRIG formated signal with a PC or even with Micro Processor Yes, there's a nice package called 'NMEATime' that will do exactly as you wish. It uses a PC's sound card to synthesize the IRIG-B signal. Check for it at this site: http://www.visualgps.net/NMEATime/default.htm I would also be interested in any DIY's you find out about that will take NMEA sentences from a GPS device and output IRIG-B. Happy tweaking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports? ___ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts@febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
