[time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Michael Baker
Hello, All--

In doing some reading to educate myself on the relative
short and long-term stability characteristics of the best
grade quartz resonators, I find that BVA cut resonators
are on the leading edge of quartz crystal technology.

I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for.

I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson
the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I
have not been able to confirm that.

Can anyone on the list shed some light on this?

Mike Baker
--

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread John Ackermann N8UR
Michael Baker wrote:

 I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
 I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for.
 
 I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson
 the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I
 have not been able to confirm that.
 
 Can anyone on the list shed some light on this?

I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something 
indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like 
improved aging rate.

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Chuck Harris
A googlized translation is:

Improved Housing for Aging

-Chuck Harris

John Franke wrote:
 Try:
 
 Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré
 
 John WA4WDL
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 
 
 Michael Baker wrote:

 I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
 I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for.

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Daun Yeagley
Same for me with both browsers.

Daun 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Didier Juges
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:02 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

Same thing here, I checked with Firefox and IE, and the problem clearly is
at their end... Maybe Monday?

Didier 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:56 PM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 
 From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800
 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Rick,
 
  Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being 
  made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics.
 
 Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a 
 few, I hope I can get a notice. Their products page blew up 
 in my browser, but here they are:
 http://www.svmagnetics.com/
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Coincidentally, I just learned today that the
E1983A is still being made by an OEM called
Scotts Valley Magnetics.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

Magnus Danielson wrote:

 
 Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup?
 

 Cheers,
 Magnus
 

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
The 10811's specs are not in the same class with the
BVA in the first place.  At the 10811 spec level,
frequency jumps aren't that significant compared to
other frequency fluctuations, so they don't need to
be specified separately.  Phase noise and short term
stability are easily distinguished from frequency
jumps.

Didier Juges wrote:
 I looked at the HP 10811 specification and I do not see Frequency Jumps as a
 specified parameter. 
 
 I know what it is, I have read the (very interesting) papers and postings on
 this group about it and I understand it is one of the more difficult to
 avoid and hardest to predict cause of error in crystal oscillators. Yet, it
 does not seem to be adequately covered in specifications.
 
 Is it covered in other spec requirements such as phase noise or short term
 stability? But since these also encompass other causes, how can I tell which
 is which? If phase noise or short term stability encompasses frequency
 jumps, how can I estimate the size of frequency jumps from those
 specifications?
 
 Didier 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard 
 (Rick) Karlquist
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 5:52 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

 Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is frequency 
 jumps.  Do we know that they are the best in that respect?  
 If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then that represents 10 days of 
 aging all at once.

 Rick Karlquist, N6RK

 Didier Juges wrote:
 I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better 
 performance, 
 so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or 
 there is something to it.

 Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding 
 performance 
 is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?

 Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke 
 really well.

 Didier KO4BB

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard
 (Rick) Karlquist
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz 
 resonators... BVA??
 Reminds me of the SC cut crystal.
 It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, 
 where it was 
 discovered :-)

 The BVA has been around for a long time and you would 
 think that if 
 there was really something to it, everybody would be 
 making them.  Of 
 course, they are very difficult to make.

 Rick Karlquist N6RK

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Brian Styles
Didier Juges wrote:

  Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance
  is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?

There's quite a bit of guff on the Oscilloquartz website - especially 
if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf).

I'm not qualified to weigh this all up, but they point out a double oven 
and an electrodeless, SC-cut, 3rd overtone crystal, decoupled from its 
mounting structure by four rigid bridges. And they go on to list the 
consquent benefits.

They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...?

Yours,



-Brian Styles


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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Magnus Danielson
From: Didier Juges [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
 either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
 something to it.
 
 Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
 actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?

Let's recall that the BVA isn't the same as a cut, but rather an approach to
handle and mount the cut crystal. The BVA exists in both AT and SC cuts.

The analysis of Rick et.al. for the E1938 was pointing in another improvement.

Also, there are many ways to cut a crystal. :)

Smokescreen or not, Oscilloquartz clearly beleive in the BVA methodology and
they seems to have customers for them too.

Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup?

Do we really need BVAs or similars for most new designs, considering the price,
size and availability of modern telecom rubidiums?

 Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
 well.

Well, that would be stupid, since it is easy enought to measure and verify.

Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house

2007-12-07 Thread Magnus Danielson
Hi fellow time-nuts!

I am just happy to let you know that I am now proud owner of a Wavecrest
DTS-2070C. I also have a SIA-3000P from before, which is nice for jitter but
not as versatile as you would wish at all times. I think the DTS will be a nice
complement.

I was not suspect it to be that large thought, but ah well, life is full of
supprises.

It fired up and I have it doing some counting going down, but I think it is
time to read the manual to figure some things out. Otherwise it seems fairly
easy to operate.

The LCD is BIG, so there is no chance missing the numbers even from some
distance.

Hmm. Time to make some shootout here... :)

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread John Franke
Try:

Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré

John WA4WDL

- Original Message - 
From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??


 Michael Baker wrote:

 I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
 I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for.

 I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson
 the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I
 have not been able to confirm that.

 Can anyone on the list shed some light on this?

 I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something
 indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like
 improved aging rate.

 John

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 To unsubscribe, go to 
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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Enrico Rubiola
 Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré


This is another version,


Enrico



Enrico Rubiola
professor of electronics

web:http://rubiola.org
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

FEMTO-ST Institute
32 av. de l'Observatoire
25044 Besancon, FRANCE
voice:  +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola)
voice:  +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard)
fax:+33(0)381.853998


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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Didier Juges
I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
something to it.

Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?

Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
well.

Didier KO4BB

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard 
 (Rick) Karlquist
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 
 Reminds me of the SC cut crystal.
 It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where 
 it was discovered :-)
 
 The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think 
 that if there was really something to it, everybody would be 
 making them.  Of course, they are very difficult to make.
 
 Rick Karlquist N6RK


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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Magnus Danielson
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Rick,

 Coincidentally, I just learned today that the
 E1983A is still being made by an OEM called
 Scotts Valley Magnetics.

Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a few, I hope I can
get a notice. Their products page blew up in my browser, but here they are:
http://www.svmagnetics.com/

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Didier Juges
I looked at the HP 10811 specification and I do not see Frequency Jumps as a
specified parameter. 

I know what it is, I have read the (very interesting) papers and postings on
this group about it and I understand it is one of the more difficult to
avoid and hardest to predict cause of error in crystal oscillators. Yet, it
does not seem to be adequately covered in specifications.

Is it covered in other spec requirements such as phase noise or short term
stability? But since these also encompass other causes, how can I tell which
is which? If phase noise or short term stability encompasses frequency
jumps, how can I estimate the size of frequency jumps from those
specifications?

Didier 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard 
 (Rick) Karlquist
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 5:52 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 
 Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is frequency 
 jumps.  Do we know that they are the best in that respect?  
 If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then that represents 10 days of 
 aging all at once.
 
 Rick Karlquist, N6RK
 
 Didier Juges wrote:
  I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better 
 performance, 
  so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or 
  there is something to it.
  
  Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding 
 performance 
  is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
  
  Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke 
  really well.
  
  Didier KO4BB
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard
  (Rick) Karlquist
  Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz 
 resonators... BVA??
 
  Reminds me of the SC cut crystal.
  It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, 
 where it was 
  discovered :-)
 
  The BVA has been around for a long time and you would 
 think that if 
  there was really something to it, everybody would be 
 making them.  Of 
  course, they are very difficult to make.
 
  Rick Karlquist N6RK
  
  
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  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread John Ackermann N8UR
Brian Styles said the following on 12/07/2007 07:15 PM:

 There's quite a bit of guff on the Oscilloquartz website - especially 
 if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf).

[ . . . ]

 They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...?

Very rough numbers, but the standard 8607 is about US$4K.

The option -008, which has 8x10e-14 ADEV from 2 to 30 seconds (and phase
noise about -130dBc/Hz at 1 Hz offset) is about $14K. I'm told the yield
of those is about a dozen per year, and the lead time to get one is
around six months.

John

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Re: [time-nuts] Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise Frequency Standard

2007-12-07 Thread Enrico Rubiola
Martyn,
designing a Cs standard is not the job for a single man,
yet I might help you to find frustrated scientists who worked
on a Cs project (some 10 years ago I took a part in a project,
designing damn impossible precision electronics).

About the noise of your quartz oscillator, not bad.
Yet:

Oscilloquartz 8607 has -128.5 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz,
which scales to -122.5 at 10 MHz, thus -125.5 dBc.
Off the shelf, may have some delay.

Rakon has -132 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz,
which scales to -126 at 10 MHz, thus -129 dBc.
Small production for space, not sure you can actually
buy it.

In your oscillator, is the power dissipated by the quartz of
40 microwatts?

Can you send a spectrum?

I am getting great fun in reverse engineering the oscillator
noise.  The noise I mean, not the oscillator.  This takes
some 40-50 pages of my forthcoming book on
phase noise and frequency stability in oscillators.
You can't enter an order number, you must wait for
Cambridge University Press, which is a non-profit
company.

Cheers,
Enrico


On 6 Dec 2007, at 15:12 , Martyn Smith wrote:

 Hi,

 Is there anyone out there clever enough to design me a cesium  
 frequency standard??

 There's only two manufacturers that I know of and there's room for  
 another supplier.

 Also you may be interested to read we have just developed what we  
 believe to be the worlds lowest close-in phase noise 10 MHz  
 oscillator.

 It makes -121 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz.  Noise floor is only -162 dBc/Hz at  
 the moment, but we are working on reducing this a further 5 to 10 dB.

 Enter your order number here..

 Best Regards

 Martyn

 This Email is from:

 Martyn Smith
 Precision Test Systems LTD
 Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Web: www.ptsyst.com

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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ 
 time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

Enrico Rubiola
professor of electronics

web:http://rubiola.org
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

FEMTO-ST Institute
32 av. de l'Observatoire
25044 Besancon, FRANCE
voice:  +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola)
voice:  +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard)
fax:+33(0)381.853998


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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is
frequency jumps.  Do we know that they are the best
in that respect?  If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then
that represents 10 days of aging all at once.

Rick Karlquist, N6RK

Didier Juges wrote:
 I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
 either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
 something to it.
 
 Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
 actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
 
 Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
 well.
 
 Didier KO4BB
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard 
 (Rick) Karlquist
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

 Reminds me of the SC cut crystal.
 It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where 
 it was discovered :-)

 The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think 
 that if there was really something to it, everybody would be 
 making them.  Of course, they are very difficult to make.

 Rick Karlquist N6RK
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Reminds me of the SC cut crystal.
It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara,
where it was discovered :-)

The BVA has been around for a long time and you
would think that if there was really something to
it, everybody would be making them.  Of course, they
are very difficult to make.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
 Michael Baker wrote:
 
 I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
 I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for.

 I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson
 the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I
 have not been able to confirm that.

 Can anyone on the list shed some light on this?
 
 I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something 
 indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like 
 improved aging rate.
 
 John
 
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Brian Styles
John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

 The option -008, ...  is about $14K. I'm told the yield
 of those is about a dozen per year, and the lead time to get one is
 around six months.

Hmm, not quite long enough to save up, then!

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know the Thomson-CSF
PMT P5-1E ?

It seems to offer a total stability of 5x10e-11 over a day and 1x10e-8 
over 12 months. The latter figure isn't very far behind the best 8607.

I ask because I've had one of these Thomson trinkets kicking around for 
a while (washed up from an abandoned project) and thought of building a 
clock round it. My own obsession is with long-term accuracy rather than 
the immediate spectrum. It has to beat the Synchronomes...

If anyone's played with a PMT P5-1E, I'd be most interested to hear.

Regards,


-Brian Styles

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Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??

2007-12-07 Thread Didier Juges
Same thing here, I checked with Firefox and IE, and the problem clearly is
at their end... Maybe Monday?

Didier 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:56 PM
 To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 
 From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800
 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Rick,
 
  Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being 
  made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics.
 
 Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a 
 few, I hope I can get a notice. Their products page blew up 
 in my browser, but here they are:
 http://www.svmagnetics.com/
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
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