[time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Hello, All-- In doing some reading to educate myself on the relative short and long-term stability characteristics of the best grade quartz resonators, I find that BVA cut resonators are on the leading edge of quartz crystal technology. I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for. I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I have not been able to confirm that. Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? Mike Baker -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Michael Baker wrote: I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for. I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I have not been able to confirm that. Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like improved aging rate. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
A googlized translation is: Improved Housing for Aging -Chuck Harris John Franke wrote: Try: Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré John WA4WDL - Original Message - From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Michael Baker wrote: I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Same for me with both browsers. Daun -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Didier Juges Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:02 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Same thing here, I checked with Firefox and IE, and the problem clearly is at their end... Maybe Monday? Didier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:56 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rick, Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics. Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a few, I hope I can get a notice. Their products page blew up in my browser, but here they are: http://www.svmagnetics.com/ Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics. Rick Karlquist N6RK Magnus Danielson wrote: Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup? Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
The 10811's specs are not in the same class with the BVA in the first place. At the 10811 spec level, frequency jumps aren't that significant compared to other frequency fluctuations, so they don't need to be specified separately. Phase noise and short term stability are easily distinguished from frequency jumps. Didier Juges wrote: I looked at the HP 10811 specification and I do not see Frequency Jumps as a specified parameter. I know what it is, I have read the (very interesting) papers and postings on this group about it and I understand it is one of the more difficult to avoid and hardest to predict cause of error in crystal oscillators. Yet, it does not seem to be adequately covered in specifications. Is it covered in other spec requirements such as phase noise or short term stability? But since these also encompass other causes, how can I tell which is which? If phase noise or short term stability encompasses frequency jumps, how can I estimate the size of frequency jumps from those specifications? Didier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 5:52 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is frequency jumps. Do we know that they are the best in that respect? If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then that represents 10 days of aging all at once. Rick Karlquist, N6RK Didier Juges wrote: I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is something to it. Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really well. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Reminds me of the SC cut crystal. It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where it was discovered :-) The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think that if there was really something to it, everybody would be making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Didier Juges wrote: Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? There's quite a bit of guff on the Oscilloquartz website - especially if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf). I'm not qualified to weigh this all up, but they point out a double oven and an electrodeless, SC-cut, 3rd overtone crystal, decoupled from its mounting structure by four rigid bridges. And they go on to list the consquent benefits. They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...? Yours, -Brian Styles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
From: Didier Juges [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is something to it. Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? Let's recall that the BVA isn't the same as a cut, but rather an approach to handle and mount the cut crystal. The BVA exists in both AT and SC cuts. The analysis of Rick et.al. for the E1938 was pointing in another improvement. Also, there are many ways to cut a crystal. :) Smokescreen or not, Oscilloquartz clearly beleive in the BVA methodology and they seems to have customers for them too. Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup? Do we really need BVAs or similars for most new designs, considering the price, size and availability of modern telecom rubidiums? Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really well. Well, that would be stupid, since it is easy enought to measure and verify. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house
Hi fellow time-nuts! I am just happy to let you know that I am now proud owner of a Wavecrest DTS-2070C. I also have a SIA-3000P from before, which is nice for jitter but not as versatile as you would wish at all times. I think the DTS will be a nice complement. I was not suspect it to be that large thought, but ah well, life is full of supprises. It fired up and I have it doing some counting going down, but I think it is time to read the manual to figure some things out. Otherwise it seems fairly easy to operate. The LCD is BIG, so there is no chance missing the numbers even from some distance. Hmm. Time to make some shootout here... :) Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Try: Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré John WA4WDL - Original Message - From: John Ackermann N8UR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Michael Baker wrote: I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for. I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I have not been able to confirm that. Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like improved aging rate. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Boîtier à Vieillissement Amélioré This is another version, Enrico Enrico Rubiola professor of electronics web:http://rubiola.org e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FEMTO-ST Institute 32 av. de l'Observatoire 25044 Besancon, FRANCE voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) fax:+33(0)381.853998 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is something to it. Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really well. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Reminds me of the SC cut crystal. It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where it was discovered :-) The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think that if there was really something to it, everybody would be making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rick, Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics. Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a few, I hope I can get a notice. Their products page blew up in my browser, but here they are: http://www.svmagnetics.com/ Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
I looked at the HP 10811 specification and I do not see Frequency Jumps as a specified parameter. I know what it is, I have read the (very interesting) papers and postings on this group about it and I understand it is one of the more difficult to avoid and hardest to predict cause of error in crystal oscillators. Yet, it does not seem to be adequately covered in specifications. Is it covered in other spec requirements such as phase noise or short term stability? But since these also encompass other causes, how can I tell which is which? If phase noise or short term stability encompasses frequency jumps, how can I estimate the size of frequency jumps from those specifications? Didier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 5:52 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is frequency jumps. Do we know that they are the best in that respect? If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then that represents 10 days of aging all at once. Rick Karlquist, N6RK Didier Juges wrote: I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is something to it. Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really well. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Reminds me of the SC cut crystal. It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where it was discovered :-) The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think that if there was really something to it, everybody would be making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Brian Styles said the following on 12/07/2007 07:15 PM: There's quite a bit of guff on the Oscilloquartz website - especially if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf). [ . . . ] They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...? Very rough numbers, but the standard 8607 is about US$4K. The option -008, which has 8x10e-14 ADEV from 2 to 30 seconds (and phase noise about -130dBc/Hz at 1 Hz offset) is about $14K. I'm told the yield of those is about a dozen per year, and the lead time to get one is around six months. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise Frequency Standard
Martyn, designing a Cs standard is not the job for a single man, yet I might help you to find frustrated scientists who worked on a Cs project (some 10 years ago I took a part in a project, designing damn impossible precision electronics). About the noise of your quartz oscillator, not bad. Yet: Oscilloquartz 8607 has -128.5 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, which scales to -122.5 at 10 MHz, thus -125.5 dBc. Off the shelf, may have some delay. Rakon has -132 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz, which scales to -126 at 10 MHz, thus -129 dBc. Small production for space, not sure you can actually buy it. In your oscillator, is the power dissipated by the quartz of 40 microwatts? Can you send a spectrum? I am getting great fun in reverse engineering the oscillator noise. The noise I mean, not the oscillator. This takes some 40-50 pages of my forthcoming book on phase noise and frequency stability in oscillators. You can't enter an order number, you must wait for Cambridge University Press, which is a non-profit company. Cheers, Enrico On 6 Dec 2007, at 15:12 , Martyn Smith wrote: Hi, Is there anyone out there clever enough to design me a cesium frequency standard?? There's only two manufacturers that I know of and there's room for another supplier. Also you may be interested to read we have just developed what we believe to be the worlds lowest close-in phase noise 10 MHz oscillator. It makes -121 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz. Noise floor is only -162 dBc/Hz at the moment, but we are working on reducing this a further 5 to 10 dB. Enter your order number here.. Best Regards Martyn This Email is from: Martyn Smith Precision Test Systems LTD Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.ptsyst.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Enrico Rubiola professor of electronics web:http://rubiola.org e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FEMTO-ST Institute 32 av. de l'Observatoire 25044 Besancon, FRANCE voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola) voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard) fax:+33(0)381.853998 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is frequency jumps. Do we know that they are the best in that respect? If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then that represents 10 days of aging all at once. Rick Karlquist, N6RK Didier Juges wrote: I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is something to it. Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed? Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really well. Didier KO4BB -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Reminds me of the SC cut crystal. It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where it was discovered :-) The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think that if there was really something to it, everybody would be making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. Rick Karlquist N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Reminds me of the SC cut crystal. It either means Stress Compensated or Santa Clara, where it was discovered :-) The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think that if there was really something to it, everybody would be making them. Of course, they are very difficult to make. Rick Karlquist N6RK John Ackermann N8UR wrote: Michael Baker wrote: I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but I have not discovered what the acronym BVA stands for. I suspect that the B in BVA may refer to Raymond Besson the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I have not been able to confirm that. Can anyone on the list shed some light on this? I don't have the exact translation handy, but I ran across something indicating that BVA was an acronym in French for something like improved aging rate. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
John Ackermann N8UR wrote: The option -008, ... is about $14K. I'm told the yield of those is about a dozen per year, and the lead time to get one is around six months. Hmm, not quite long enough to save up, then! Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know the Thomson-CSF PMT P5-1E ? It seems to offer a total stability of 5x10e-11 over a day and 1x10e-8 over 12 months. The latter figure isn't very far behind the best 8607. I ask because I've had one of these Thomson trinkets kicking around for a while (washed up from an abandoned project) and thought of building a clock round it. My own obsession is with long-term accuracy rather than the immediate spectrum. It has to beat the Synchronomes... If anyone's played with a PMT P5-1E, I'd be most interested to hear. Regards, -Brian Styles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
Same thing here, I checked with Firefox and IE, and the problem clearly is at their end... Maybe Monday? Didier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 7:56 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rick, Coincidentally, I just learned today that the E1983A is still being made by an OEM called Scotts Valley Magnetics. Oh, if there would manifest itself a chance to get hold of a few, I hope I can get a notice. Their products page blew up in my browser, but here they are: http://www.svmagnetics.com/ Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
