Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
gsteinb...@aol.com wrote: > Weather projections for California this winter are WET, which implies > local power failures (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). > > What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the TAPR TBolt > systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs that should probably be > kept running to avoid retrace errors). Automobile batteries? UPS > inverter systems? > Two kVA UPS backed by a 24 volt, 600 amp-hour battery bank. That's good for almost 24 hours at my current loading. Because I live in a remote mountain cabin, I depend on electricity for my well water also. Therefore before a day passes, the 10kVA generator comes out to power up the well pump, the water heater, the heat pump and the electric stove. Nine days is the longest that I've been without power. I have a wood stove insert for my fireplace for heat, the fan of which is powered from the UPS. There is an 80 amp charger for the batteries that is powered up whenever utility or generator power is available. For backup to the backup, I can use the 4kVA generator in my motorhome to run everything except the heat pump. John -- John DeArmond Tellico Plains, Occupied TN http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
One option for a small setup (few hundred watts) is to use one of the small "domestic" UPS's connected to a larger external battery bank. Even the big server UPS's are only rated for minutes at full load. This is enough to switch to a generator or a claen shutdown. Unfortunatly efficency at low loads is not a priority. As a result the load / hold-up time does not scale in a linear fashion. Robert. --- On Sun, 9/8/09, gsteinb...@aol.com wrote: > From: gsteinb...@aol.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Power Back-up > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Date: Sunday, 9 August, 2009, 5:55 AM > Weather projections for California > this winter are WET, which implies local power failures > (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). > > What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the > TAPR TBolt systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs > that should probably be kept running to avoid retrace > errors). Automobile batteries? UPS inverter systems? > > Thanks, > Jerry > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story so, far
Re-read Jim's posts. To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the upper right corner of fig. 5-12. He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with the base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is +18V - 0.6 to - 0.7V. The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer Oven Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be cooked if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the power amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit (decoupled +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from the circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the oven housing cover. Regards, Adrian Bruce Griffiths schrieb: christopher hoover wrote: The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. Add a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are good to go. -ch That probably wont work in this case. The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to one of 2 values. With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator output when the main fails. It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
I use even a smaller set up. A 10 watt solar panel charges a 12V 20AH standby battery. A home brew OCXO at 1MHz takes about 1 Watt and is periodically disciplined by hand against a TBOLT or other GPS disciplined oscillator. The battery also runs a couple of pendulum clocks which are being monitored against the 1MHz oscillator. The Clocks are being logged against the OCXO by an Onset 12 bit 4 channel data logger. Eventually I will increase the size of the solar array and maybe keep the TBOLT backed up. In Sydney we get a good solar input even in winter. It could keep it running forever. cheers, Neville Michie On 09/08/2009, at 2:55 PM, gsteinb...@aol.com wrote: Weather projections for California this winter are WET, which implies local power failures (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the TAPR TBolt systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs that should probably be kept running to avoid retrace errors). Automobile batteries? UPS inverter systems? Thanks, Jerry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story so, far
The 18V regulator is still not directly replaceable with an LT1581 which has an inadequate voltage rating. Replacing either of the 2N1701's with a more modern transistor may well lead to oscillations due to the much higher ft of the replacement transistor. Bruce Adrian wrote: > Re-read Jim's posts. > > To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the > upper right corner of fig. 5-12. > He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. > So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. > > The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with > the base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is > +18V - 0.6 to - 0.7V. > > The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer > Oven Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. > > The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be > cooked if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the > power amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit > (decoupled +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. > The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. > > Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. > > Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from > the circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. > If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the > oven housing cover. > > Regards, > Adrian > > Bruce Griffiths schrieb: >> christopher hoover wrote: >> The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. >>> I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. >>> >>> If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in >>> many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the >>> reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern >>> integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular >>> board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they >>> are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. >>> Add a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are >>> good to go. >>> >>> -ch >>> >>> >> That probably wont work in this case. >> The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener >> with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to >> one of 2 values. >> With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a >> diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. >> The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator >> output when the main fails. >> It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story so, far
Hi all, Latest update. With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? Regards and thanks to all! Jim Palfreyman 2009/8/9 Adrian : > Re-read Jim's posts. > > To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the upper > right corner of fig. 5-12. > He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. > So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. > > The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with the > base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is +18V - 0.6 > to - 0.7V. > > The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer Oven > Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. > > The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be cooked > if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the power > amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit (decoupled > +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. > The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. > > Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. > > Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from the > circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. > If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the oven > housing cover. > > Regards, > Adrian > > Bruce Griffiths schrieb: >> >> christopher hoover wrote: >> The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. >>> >>> I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. >>> >>> If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in >>> many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the >>> reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern >>> integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular >>> board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they >>> are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. Add >>> a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are >>> good to go. >>> >>> -ch >>> >>> >> >> That probably wont work in this case. >> The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener >> with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to >> one of 2 values. >> With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a >> diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. >> The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator >> output when the main fails. >> It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
Keep in mind that the batteries are not the only thing on small cheap Domestic UPS's that are rated for minutes. Same goes with their electronics, Heatsink etc. You would have to seriously derate them for continuous duty, and even then it may not be save. And in some cases the equipment connected to them should not be run on them for more than a short time either, because of their output wave form. All and all not such a good idea unless you are real careful with what you use and connect them to. Best to at start with an inverter rated for continuous duty. ws - Original Message - From: "Robert Atkinson" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 2:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up One option for a small setup (few hundred watts) is to use one of the small "domestic" UPS's connected to a larger external battery bank. Even the big server UPS's are only rated for minutes at full load. This is enough to switch to a generator or a claen shutdown. Unfortunatly efficency at low loads is not a priority. As a result the load / hold-up time does not scale in a linear fashion. Robert. --- On Sun, 9/8/09, gsteinb...@aol.com wrote: > From: gsteinb...@aol.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Power Back-up > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Date: Sunday, 9 August, 2009, 5:55 AM > Weather projections for California > this winter are WET, which implies local power failures > (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). > > What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the > TAPR TBolt systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs > that should probably be kept running to avoid retrace > errors). Automobile batteries? UPS inverter systems? > > Thanks, > Jerry > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
On 8/8/09 10:45 PM, "Hal Murray" wrote: > > >> Weather projections for California this winter are WET, which implies >> local power failures (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). > >> What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the TAPR TBolt >> systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs that should probably be >> kept running to avoid retrace errors). Automobile batteries? UPS >> inverter systems? > > Are your OCXOs in gear that draws real power? Do you leave that gear running > when you aren't around? > > Check the numbers. > > Small UPS boxes don't have much capacity. Not only that, but because they're designed to run for only about 20 minutes, their thermal design depends on mass as much as actual conduction or convection. At low load, they're not very efficient, either. It's cheaper to just put a bigger battery in than to use more parts in the inverter (lead is cheap, apparently) and still meet the spec. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
In message , "Lux, Jim (337C)" writes: >Not only that, but because they're designed to run for only about 20 >minutes, their thermal design depends on mass as much as actual conduction or convection. At low load, they're not very efficient, either. It's >cheaper to just put a bigger battery in than to use more parts in the >inverter (lead is cheap, apparently) and still meet the spec. Seconded. That is why I run my critical stuff (servers + timekeeping) of batteries. When I designed the setup, I calculated that I got 15 *times* the hold-over for the same money. And yes, put a MorningStart Sunsaver MPPT and a couple of panels on your battery, and you get close to "permanent" hold-over, unless you live in Denmark. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
Hello Joe, Put a bid price on it that reflects the associated risk. Or delay the purchase till you can test it with a load. I suspect that if it powers up, it would probably work in your application. I have a few bench type HP power supplies and they are all nice and RF quiet, but are rated well below the 40A you are considering. A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) to a low frequency spectrum analyzer No info in the '82, '89, or '93 HP Test and Measurement catalog It may not be a HP manufactured product, but rather another manufacturer made it for HP, and HP slapped their label on it. Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. I have a 51V, 57A switch mode PS with a HP label on it, a computer server PS, but it was made by Astec and their website showed the same ASTEC model and detailed application info. Stan, W1LECape Cod FN41sr Joseph Gray wrote: This is not strictly time-nuts related, but I know there are a lot of folks here who have and use HP surplus equipment. I have an opportunity to buy an HP 62615M switching power supply. It is rated 15VDC @ 40A. I have it adjusted to 13.8VDC. I have Googled, checked the Agilent site and BAMA, but can't find any documentation or specs. I want to use this to power an Amateur HF radio and am particularly interested in any information about how much RF hash this thing might generate. I don't have an HF rig yet, so I can't test this by trying it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B part no.
Double check: "Q11 is marked as 1854-0003." I can't find it in any of the HP cross references. Brian - KD4FM Jim Palfreyman wrote: Hi all, Latest update. With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? Regards and thanks to all! Jim Palfreyman 2009/8/9 Adrian : Re-read Jim's posts. To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the upper right corner of fig. 5-12. He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with the base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is +18V - 0.6 to - 0.7V. The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer Oven Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be cooked if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the power amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit (decoupled +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from the circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the oven housing cover. Regards, Adrian Bruce Griffiths schrieb: christopher hoover wrote: The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. Add a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are good to go. -ch That probably wont work in this case. The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to one of 2 values. With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator output when the main fails. It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story so, far
- Original Message From: Jim Palfreyman To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 7:31:31 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story so, far Hi all, Latest update. With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? Regards and thanks to all! Jim Palfreyman 2009/8/9 Adrian : > Re-read Jim's posts. > > To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the upper > right corner of fig. 5-12. > He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. > So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. > > The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with the > base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is +18V - 0.6 > to - 0.7V. > > The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer Oven > Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. > > The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be cooked > if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the power > amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit (decoupled > +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. > The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. > > Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. > > Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from the > circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. > If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the oven > housing cover. > > Regards, > Adrian > > Bruce Griffiths schrieb: >> >> christopher hoover wrote: >> The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. >>> >>> I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. >>> >>> If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in >>> many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the >>> reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern >>> integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular >>> board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they >>> are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. Add >>> a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are >>> good to go. >>> >>> -ch >>> >>> >> >> That probably wont work in this case. >> The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener >> with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to >> one of 2 values. >> With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a >> diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. >> The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator >> output when the main fails. >> It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
Jerry, My favorite are golf car batteries, Trogen brand if not too expensive : http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/GolfCart.aspx Second on my list would be 12volt RV/Marine Batteries, not the marine starting battery. Get mine at Sam's, shop around they went up in price last year with the price of lead and not everyone reset the price with the lower lead price. Do read up on the regular maintenance required and plan on replacement before they fail. Stanley - Original Message From: "gsteinb...@aol.com" To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2009 11:55:21 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Power Back-up Weather projections for California this winter are WET, which implies local power failures (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the TAPR TBolt systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs that should probably be kept running to avoid retrace errors). Automobile batteries? UPS inverter systems? Thanks, Jerry ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story
Hi all, Latest update. With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? Regards and thanks to all! Jim Palfreyman Jim, the 1854-0003 is a pretty common HP part in older eqpt. If you have junked 5245L counter handy, it's full of them, especially in the decade counter PCBs. If you don't have one handy, I have an assembly here with 8 of them on it. If you like, I can send it right away (if you're outside the USA, you pay postage). Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
When considering a battery backup you really have two ways to go: Battery --> Inverter --> Load Battery ---> Load The first option is generally easy to implement, but a lot of the battery capacity goes up as heat in the inverter. As others have pointed out, inverters are not very efficient or electrically quiet, and they sop up quite a bit of power w/o any load at all. For this reason, the second option is better, IMO. I have persnally opted for the second arrangement, with two marine 12 V batteries in series and has yet to fail to power my HP 107 and Austron 2100F in the 20+ years I've been running them. There are even purpose built battery backup supplies available for running oscillators, receivers, and such. Sadly, the NiCds tend to be bad and are quite expensive to replace. If you need something like +/- 15 VDC for some GPS hardware, there are small, isolating DC/DC converters that will be far less wasteful of battery capacity than an inverter and AC-> DC supply. You can use diodes to make an OR circuitto switch automatically between DC supplies when the line fails. Best, -John == > Jerry, > > My favorite are golf car batteries, Trogen brand if not too expensive : > http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/GolfCart.aspx > > Second on my list would be 12volt RV/Marine Batteries, not the marine > starting battery. > > Get mine at Sam's, shop around they went up in price last year with the > price of lead and not everyone reset the price with the lower lead price. > > Do read up on the regular maintenance required and plan on replacement > before they fail. > > > Stanley > > > > - Original Message > From: "gsteinb...@aol.com" > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2009 11:55:21 PM > Subject: [time-nuts] Power Back-up > > Weather projections for California this winter are WET, which implies > local power failures (lasting up to perhaps eight hours). > > What do time-nuts do for backup power? I have one of the TAPR TBolt > systems along with numerous other toys (OCXOs that should probably be kept > running to avoid retrace errors). Automobile batteries? UPS inverter > systems? > > Thanks, > Jerry > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B part no.
1854-0003 is a good part number. I have a few here that were removed from equipment. Possibly someone with the proper equipment could characterize this part and determine a suitable parametric substitute. 73 Glenn WB4UIV At 11:43 AM 8/9/2009, you wrote: Double check: "Q11 is marked as 1854-0003." I can't find it in any of the HP cross references. Brian - KD4FM Jim Palfreyman wrote: Hi all, Latest update. With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? Regards and thanks to all! Jim Palfreyman 2009/8/9 Adrian : Re-read Jim's posts. To me it seems clear that he is talking about the 2N1701 Q3 in the upper right corner of fig. 5-12. He mentioned that +18 measures high, around 26V. So, the problem is NOT in the battery charger circuit. The purpose of that Q3 is to generate +17.4V (and +7V) from +26V, with the base being connected to +18V, thus the emitter voltage of Q3 is +18V - 0.6 to - 0.7V. The +18V regulator circuit is on the lower left of fig 5-8, A1A4 Outer Oven Controller. For a circuit description see 4-40 to 4-44. The +18V feed the AC amplifier (A1A2), the +15V through R14 (might be cooked if run at 26V for extended time) and CR2 on the same board, the power amplifier (A1A3), the outer oven temperature control circuit (decoupled +18V), and the inner oven control cuircuit A1A5. The 17.4V that are derived from +18V feed the dividers. Any adjustments make sense only after fixing the +18V supply. Actually, Q3 might as well be shorted. I would first remove it from the circuit to see if the +18V are then correct. If not, check the voltages at Q9 and Q7 of A1A4. Q9 is mounted on the oven housing cover. Regards, Adrian Bruce Griffiths schrieb: christopher hoover wrote: The 2N1701 is a general purpose transistor rated at 60V, 2.5A. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. If you are having trouble with an old school linear power supply, in many cases you can replace the TO-220 PNP pass transistor *and* the reguatlor circuit (based on a 723 or whatever) with a modern integrated regulator in TO-220 such as an LT1581. Strip the regular board of everything except for the the input and output caps (if they are still good) and wire up a pair of resistors to set the voltage. Add a couple of jumpers to complete the circuit. And then you are good to go. -ch That probably wont work in this case. The supply is actually an NPN discrete darlington buffered 32V zener with a current limit transistor to set the battery charging current to one of 2 values. With the battery removed the supply output should rise to 32V - 2Vbe - a diode drop, ie about 29.8V or so. The series diode is required to isolate the battery from the regulator output when the main fails. It should be much quicker and easier to just find suitable transistors. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
In message <1214.12.6.201.198.1249837157.squir...@popacctsnew.quik.com>, "J. Fo rster" writes: >There are even purpose built battery backup supplies available for running >oscillators, receivers, and such. Sadly, the NiCds tend to be bad and are >quite expensive to replace. Industrial units are available of all kinds, they are used for security and emergency kit such as intrusion alarms, fire alarms, emergency lightning etc. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
From what I've found, the Trojan and Deka golf cart batteries seem to perform the best. Also good are Superior Battery and Crown Battery. I have two Deka GC-15 in series to run the equipment and house LED power-failure lighting. Other brands may be manufactured out-of-country, even though they have USA-sounding names. It's a good idea to do your own research and talk with the locals about their experiences. I have bought automotive starting and other use batteries from the local stores like Sams, Auto Zone, and Tractor Supply, and have been disappointed with the battery life. Intelligent charging is a significant life factor. Stanley Reynolds wrote: Jerry, My favorite are golf car batteries, Trogen brand if not too expensive : Second on my list would be 12volt RV/Marine Batteries, not the marine starting battery. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
> Keep in mind that the batteries are not the only thing on small cheap > Domestic UPS's that are rated for minutes. Same goes with their > electronics, Heatsink etc. If you are interested in times measured in hours, you will be running a typical small UPS at well below full load. For example, if full load is 5 minutes, 2 hours will be 5%. That's assuming time*load is linear. From what I've lower loads load are more efficient. For example: Typical Backup Time at Half Load 15.9 minutes (250 Watts) Typical Backup Time at Full Load 4.6 minutes (500 Watts) That's for an APC SUA750 from: http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA75 0&total_watts=50 Somebody pointed out that low loads are inefficient. That doesn't match the numbers I'm seeing, Maybe I'm not looking at low enough loads. From their chart: Watts * minutes 50 * 103 = 5150 100 * 50 = 5000 250 * 15.9 = 3975 500 * 4.6 = 2300 I wonder where the knee is. 20w? 10w? That's also from the data sheet rather than measured. It probably assumes a new battery. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
The inverter efficiency drops below 90% for loads of less than 30% of the rating (as shown by graph on the linked page). However the battery discharge characteristics also have to be taken into account. The capacity of the battery used increases as the load current decreases, the net effect being to shift the system peak efficiency to lower loads than 30% of rating. Bruce Hal Murray wrote: >> Keep in mind that the batteries are not the only thing on small cheap >> Domestic UPS's that are rated for minutes. Same goes with their >> electronics, Heatsink etc. >> > > If you are interested in times measured in hours, you will be running a > typical small UPS at well below full load. > > For example, if full load is 5 minutes, 2 hours will be 5%. > > That's assuming time*load is linear. From what I've lower loads load are > more efficient. For example: > Typical Backup Time at Half Load 15.9 minutes (250 Watts) > Typical Backup Time at Full Load 4.6 minutes (500 Watts) > > That's for an APC SUA750 from: > http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA75 > 0&total_watts=50 > > Somebody pointed out that low loads are inefficient. That doesn't match the > numbers I'm seeing, Maybe I'm not looking at low enough loads. From their > chart: > > Watts * minutes > 50 * 103 = 5150 > 100 * 50 = 5000 > 250 * 15.9 = 3975 > 500 * 4.6 = 2300 > > I wonder where the knee is. 20w? 10w? > > That's also from the data sheet rather than measured. It probably assumes a > new battery. > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 Robert Darlington wrote >I use a 100 pound APC UPS (Smart-UPS 2200XL) that I was given a few years >ago. I suspect it will run a thunderbolt for a month. Check eBay and you >can probably pick one up cheap. >-bob I tried to use a Trust UPS to transport a GPSDO for a demonstration so that I would not have to wait for the warm up and stabilisation period. The attempt failed because the UPS cut out after a few minutes despite the UPS being proven capable of running a 60 Watt light bulb for an hour. After emailing the distributors it turned out that the unit was designed to cut out if the load was not high enough. The 8 Watts the GPSDO used was not enough in this case despite the UPS theoretically being able to support it for over 7 hours. You may need to check out the specification of the UPS to see that the minimal loading will not be a problem if you are looking for a long support time from a UPS. Regards Malcolm G0MIC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
> A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage > and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) > to a low frequency spectrum analyzer I don't have a spectrum analyzer. I emailed a friend about using his. > Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment > manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. I don't find any vendor markings on the boards that I can see. The main switching circuit is housed inside a metal box that would be difficult to take apart. The entire assembly is built into another metal box that has a removable top. Everything seems well shielded. I did do a test last night, using my Sony ICF-2010 shortwave receiver. I can't power the Sony directly from the 13.8VDC, but I did plug its power adapter into the same AC socket as the HP supply. With the Sony sitting on top of the supply, I didn't notice any noise from the supply on 80M-10M. I thought I heard some noise on 160M, but that band was so noisy that it was hard to tell. If my friend with the spectrum analyzer comes through, I'll be able to see some real measurements on the DC output itself. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
Joseph Gray wrote: A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) to a low frequency spectrum analyzer I don't have a spectrum analyzer. I emailed a friend about using his. Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. I don't find any vendor markings on the boards that I can see. The main switching circuit is housed inside a metal box that would be difficult to take apart. The entire assembly is built into another metal box that has a removable top. Everything seems well shielded. I did do a test last night, using my Sony ICF-2010 shortwave receiver. I can't power the Sony directly from the 13.8VDC, but I did plug its power adapter into the same AC socket as the HP supply. With the Sony sitting on top of the supply, I didn't notice any noise from the supply on 80M-10M. I thought I heard some noise on 160M, but that band was so noisy that it was hard to tell. If my friend with the spectrum analyzer comes through, I'll be able to see some real measurements on the DC output itself. Make sure that it survives the 13.8 V DC (or whatever it hits on the scope as maximum). Chanses are it doesn't, so a DC blocker or a resistive divider may be needed to make the DC levels within acceptable range. DC blocker acts like an highpass filter, so beware of the cut-off frequency while the divider will damp all signals, so be sure to include that in any level measurements if you want anything near absolute values. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
Ordinary car batteries are not tolerant of deep discharge. In a car they get charged almost constantly and even after a cold morning start they immediately get charged again. They are not designed for deep discharge and if used in such a service will not last long. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "Mike Naruta AA8K" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up From what I've found, the Trojan and Deka golf cart batteries seem to perform the best. Also good are Superior Battery and Crown Battery. I have two Deka GC-15 in series to run the equipment and house LED power-failure lighting. Other brands may be manufactured out-of-country, even though they have USA-sounding names. It's a good idea to do your own research and talk with the locals about their experiences. I have bought automotive starting and other use batteries from the local stores like Sams, Auto Zone, and Tractor Supply, and have been disappointed with the battery life. Intelligent charging is a significant life factor. Stanley Reynolds wrote: Jerry, My favorite are golf car batteries, Trogen brand if not too expensive : Second on my list would be 12volt RV/Marine Batteries, not the marine starting battery. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
The list price of these was $US839 and they are fan cooled. See HP Journal April 1975 for a description of the 62605M. Bruce Joseph Gray wrote: >> A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage >> and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) >> to a low frequency spectrum analyzer >> > > I don't have a spectrum analyzer. I emailed a friend about using his. > > >> Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment >> manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. >> > > I don't find any vendor markings on the boards that I can see. The > main switching circuit is housed inside a metal box that would be > difficult to take apart. The entire assembly is built into another > metal box that has a removable top. Everything seems well shielded. > > I did do a test last night, using my Sony ICF-2010 shortwave receiver. > I can't power the Sony directly from the 13.8VDC, but I did plug its > power adapter into the same AC socket as the HP supply. With the Sony > sitting on top of the supply, I didn't notice any noise from the > supply on 80M-10M. I thought I heard some noise on 160M, but that band > was so noisy that it was hard to tell. > > If my friend with the spectrum analyzer comes through, I'll be able to > see some real measurements on the DC output itself. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
J. Forster wrote: When considering a battery backup you really have two ways to go: Battery --> Inverter --> Load Battery ---> Load The first option is generally easy to implement, but a lot of the battery capacity goes up as heat in the inverter. As others have pointed out, inverters are not very efficient or electrically quiet, and they sop up quite a bit of power w/o any load at all. For this reason, the second option is better, IMO. In a lot of cases, you'd be stepping up from the 12V, 24V or 48V the batteries provide, then the PSU in whatever you're running would be stepping that back down to 5V, 12V or a mix of voltages. I've built a (relatively) low-power PC server out of a Mini-ITX motherboard (Jetway NC92-230), two hard drives (a Seagate 'cuda 7200.10 and a 7200.11, both 500GB), 2GB of RAM... and a 120W PicoPSU. The PicoPSU plugs straight into the ATX socket, takes 12V in, then converts it to the +5V, +12V, -5V and -12V the motherboard needs. Efficiency is supposed to be around 96%, but I haven't done any measurements. As a bonus, it doesn't need any form of active cooling (read: cooling fans) to keep it cool, so the whole machine is pretty quiet. Well, aside from the Seagate Barracuda hard drives, which seem to be designed to make as much noise as possible. My plan is to get a couple of lead-acid batteries and rig up a battery-backed AC-to-DC supply to run the server, external hard drive, DSL modem and WiFi access point. That's still on the drawing board, though -- the power to this menagerie has only been interrupted once since it was installed, and that was down to a lightbulb blowing and tripping the RCD... As for the desktop... I'll probably end up buying a Back-UPS or something along those lines. I figure I only need 5 minutes to hit "Shutdown ==> Suspend to disc", and the laptops will run for a couple of hours without AC power... There are even purpose built battery backup supplies available for running oscillators, receivers, and such. Sadly, the NiCds tend to be bad and are quite expensive to replace. In truth, most of the NiCd and NiMH packs I've used have been borderline useless. The Varta Mempac memory backup cells are OK, but most of the AA or AAA "off the shelf" cell above about 1600mAh have been dire. The Sanyo Eneloops are pretty nice though. A bit more like the alkaline AAs of old (as in, they don't go flat if you leave them for a week or two), but rechargeable. You can use diodes to make an OR circuitto switch automatically between DC supplies when the line fails. But watch out for the voltage drop, and use suitably sized diodes. A silicon diode drops about 0.7V (though big rectifiers are usually closer to 1V). If you have a supply with 2A going through it, a diode dropping 0.7V will be dissipating: P = I * V = 2 * 0.7 which works out at 1.4 Watts At this point, you'll probably want something a little bigger than a 1N4001... -- Phil. li...@philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Frequency Dividers
I thought I'd share some recent results for 2 useful frequency dividers. For frequencies above 50MHz, an A-D 9513; and a 74HC4059 for 40 MHz & below. The A-D 9513 likes higher slew rates & works best above 100MHz. I cheated and bought an evaluation board for the A-D 9513; layout is really important. First, I arranged a best case test to benchmark the system & have a basis for comparison with more flexible options. This setup yields high slewrate waveforms throughout. The configuration is: (note- the 74LV4046 PD1 input has 50 ohms to gnd) DTS-2075 100MHz Ref out (400mVp-p squarewave) to A-D 9513 (set to divide by 10) 50 ohm input. A-D 9513 10MHz out (AC coupled, 1.6Vp-p) to 74LV4046 PD1 input. 74LV4046 PD1 out to 74HC4059 (set to divide by 1E4 ) Cp input. 74HC4059 out to 250 ohm(divide by 5) probe to DTS-2075 CH1, period mode. The CH1 signal is 850mV p-p. The DTS-2075 reads 1ms period; std dev = 3ps rms (+/-10ps p-p) The DTS jitter floor is 2.3ps rms. This equates to 1.7ps rms additive jitter from the 100MHz ref out to CH1. Knowing we often wish to examine sinewave sources, I repeated this test with a BLP-10.7 filter placed between the A-D 8513 and the 74LV4046. This provides a very low distortion 10MHz, 1.76V p-p sinewave into the 74LV4046 PD1 input. The DTS-2075 jitter changed to: std dev =3.7ps rms (+/-13.3ps p-p) with period unchanged. This equates to 2.9ps rms additive jitter. Finally, measuring the jitter degradation resulting from decreasing sinewave amplitude helps establish the useful input range for the 74LV4046 PD1. Input V rms RMS Jitter Measured Computed RMS Jitter(2.3ps floor) 612mV3.7ps2.9ps 500mV3.8ps3.0ps 316mV4.7ps4.1ps 200mV6.1ps5.6ps 100mV9.4ps9.1ps 50mV14.5ps 14.3ps 25mV19.5ps 19.4ps It appears that inputs above 200mV rms are enough to "overdrive" the PD1 amplifier since the measured jitter response is so small. The 200-600mV input range is a "sweet-spot" for low jitter. Pete Rawson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency Dividers
Pete You can probably do much better with the AD9513 at lower frequencies if you use a couple of cascaded longtailed pairs each with carefully selected gain (series feedback R between the longtailed pair emitters) and bandwidth (capacitor between the collectors) to condition the low frequency input before driving the AD9513. Using a pair of back to back shottky diode clamps between the collectors of the longtailed pairs will also help. The optimum gain and bandwidth for each stage depends on the input frequency and amplitude. Bruce Pete wrote: > I thought I'd share some recent results for 2 useful frequency dividers. > > For frequencies above 50MHz, an A-D 9513; and a 74HC4059 for > 40 MHz & below. The A-D 9513 likes higher slew rates & works > best above 100MHz. I cheated and bought an evaluation board for > the A-D 9513; layout is really important. > > First, I arranged a best case test to benchmark the system & have a basis > for comparison with more flexible options. This setup yields high > slewrate > waveforms throughout. The configuration is: (note- the 74LV4046 PD1 > input has 50 ohms to gnd) > > DTS-2075 100MHz Ref out (400mVp-p squarewave) to A-D 9513 (set > to divide by 10) 50 ohm input. > A-D 9513 10MHz out (AC coupled, 1.6Vp-p) to 74LV4046 PD1 input. > 74LV4046 PD1 out to 74HC4059 (set to divide by 1E4 ) Cp input. > 74HC4059 out to 250 ohm(divide by 5) probe to DTS-2075 CH1, period > mode. The CH1 signal is 850mV p-p. The DTS-2075 reads 1ms period; > std dev = 3ps rms (+/-10ps p-p) The DTS jitter floor is 2.3ps rms. > This equates to 1.7ps rms additive jitter from the 100MHz ref out to CH1. > > Knowing we often wish to examine sinewave sources, I repeated this test > with a BLP-10.7 filter placed between the A-D 8513 and the 74LV4046. > This provides a very low distortion 10MHz, 1.76V p-p sinewave into the > 74LV4046 PD1 input. The DTS-2075 jitter changed to: std dev =3.7ps > rms (+/-13.3ps p-p) with period unchanged. This equates to 2.9ps rms > additive jitter. > > Finally, measuring the jitter degradation resulting from decreasing > sinewave > amplitude helps establish the useful input range for the 74LV4046 PD1. > > Input V rms RMS Jitter Measured Computed RMS Jitter(2.3ps floor) > 612mV3.7ps2.9ps > 500mV3.8ps3.0ps > 316mV4.7ps4.1ps > 200mV6.1ps5.6ps > 100mV9.4ps9.1ps > 50mV14.5ps 14.3ps > 25mV19.5ps 19.4ps > > It appears that inputs above 200mV rms are enough to "overdrive" the > PD1 amplifier since the measured jitter response is so small. The > 200-600mV input range is a "sweet-spot" for low jitter. > > Pete Rawson > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
Thanks a lot for finding this. I did a search of that page for "supply" but didn't turn this up. That is indeed the model series that I have. On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: > The list price of these was $US839 and they are fan cooled. > See HP Journal April 1975 for a description of the 62605M. > > Bruce > > Joseph Gray wrote: >>> A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage >>> and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) >>> to a low frequency spectrum analyzer >>> >> >> I don't have a spectrum analyzer. I emailed a friend about using his. >> >> >>> Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment >>> manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. >>> >> >> I don't find any vendor markings on the boards that I can see. The >> main switching circuit is housed inside a metal box that would be >> difficult to take apart. The entire assembly is built into another >> metal box that has a removable top. Everything seems well shielded. >> >> I did do a test last night, using my Sony ICF-2010 shortwave receiver. >> I can't power the Sony directly from the 13.8VDC, but I did plug its >> power adapter into the same AC socket as the HP supply. With the Sony >> sitting on top of the supply, I didn't notice any noise from the >> supply on 80M-10M. I thought I heard some noise on 160M, but that band >> was so noisy that it was hard to tell. >> >> If my friend with the spectrum analyzer comes through, I'll be able to >> see some real measurements on the DC output itself. >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power Back-up
Over the years, I have gotten several APC Smart UPS for next to nothing. In every case, all they needed were new batteries. Unless they are physically damaged or a circuit board is toasted, they seem to work fine. The attitude seems to be "The battery died, throw out the UPS and buy a new one." On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > J. Forster wrote: >> >> When considering a battery backup you really have two ways to go: >> >> Battery --> Inverter --> Load >> Battery ---> Load >> >> The first option is generally easy to implement, but a lot of the battery >> capacity goes up as heat in the inverter. As others have pointed out, >> inverters are not very efficient or electrically quiet, and they sop up >> quite a bit of power w/o any load at all. For this reason, the second >> option is better, IMO. > > In a lot of cases, you'd be stepping up from the 12V, 24V or 48V the > batteries provide, then the PSU in whatever you're running would be stepping > that back down to 5V, 12V or a mix of voltages. > > I've built a (relatively) low-power PC server out of a Mini-ITX motherboard > (Jetway NC92-230), two hard drives (a Seagate 'cuda 7200.10 and a 7200.11, > both 500GB), 2GB of RAM... and a 120W PicoPSU. The PicoPSU plugs straight > into the ATX socket, takes 12V in, then converts it to the +5V, +12V, -5V > and -12V the motherboard needs. > > Efficiency is supposed to be around 96%, but I haven't done any > measurements. As a bonus, it doesn't need any form of active cooling (read: > cooling fans) to keep it cool, so the whole machine is pretty quiet. Well, > aside from the Seagate Barracuda hard drives, which seem to be designed to > make as much noise as possible. > > My plan is to get a couple of lead-acid batteries and rig up a > battery-backed AC-to-DC supply to run the server, external hard drive, DSL > modem and WiFi access point. That's still on the drawing board, though -- > the power to this menagerie has only been interrupted once since it was > installed, and that was down to a lightbulb blowing and tripping the RCD... > > As for the desktop... I'll probably end up buying a Back-UPS or something > along those lines. I figure I only need 5 minutes to hit "Shutdown ==> > Suspend to disc", and the laptops will run for a couple of hours without AC > power... > >> There are even purpose built battery backup supplies available for running >> oscillators, receivers, and such. Sadly, the NiCds tend to be bad and are >> quite expensive to replace. > > In truth, most of the NiCd and NiMH packs I've used have been borderline > useless. The Varta Mempac memory backup cells are OK, but most of the AA or > AAA "off the shelf" cell above about 1600mAh have been dire. > > The Sanyo Eneloops are pretty nice though. A bit more like the alkaline AAs > of old (as in, they don't go flat if you leave them for a week or two), but > rechargeable. > >> You can use diodes >> to make an OR circuitto switch automatically between DC supplies when the >> line fails. > > But watch out for the voltage drop, and use suitably sized diodes. > > A silicon diode drops about 0.7V (though big rectifiers are usually closer > to 1V). If you have a supply with 2A going through it, a diode dropping 0.7V > will be dissipating: > > P = I * V > = 2 * 0.7 > which works out at 1.4 Watts > > At this point, you'll probably want something a little bigger than a > 1N4001... > > -- > Phil. > li...@philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Power supply help
I remembered this series from the 70's but couldn't immediately find the article. The required search term was "power supplies". Joseph Gray wrote: > Thanks a lot for finding this. I did a search of that page for > "supply" but didn't turn this up. That is indeed the model series that > I have. > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Bruce > Griffiths wrote: > >> The list price of these was $US839 and they are fan cooled. >> See HP Journal April 1975 for a description of the 62605M. >> >> Bruce >> >> Joseph Gray wrote: >> A good test would be to load it down to its rated current and voltage and monitor noise with a clamp on current probe ( on one lead) to a low frequency spectrum analyzer >>> I don't have a spectrum analyzer. I emailed a friend about using his. >>> >>> >>> Open it up and look for tell tale signs of the original equipment manufacturer, possibly on the PCB. >>> I don't find any vendor markings on the boards that I can see. The >>> main switching circuit is housed inside a metal box that would be >>> difficult to take apart. The entire assembly is built into another >>> metal box that has a removable top. Everything seems well shielded. >>> >>> I did do a test last night, using my Sony ICF-2010 shortwave receiver. >>> I can't power the Sony directly from the 13.8VDC, but I did plug its >>> power adapter into the same AC socket as the HP supply. With the Sony >>> sitting on top of the supply, I didn't notice any noise from the >>> supply on 80M-10M. I thought I heard some noise on 160M, but that band >>> was so noisy that it was hard to tell. >>> >>> If my friend with the spectrum analyzer comes through, I'll be able to >>> see some real measurements on the DC output itself. >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story
Thanks for that! - I do have a number of the 5254L units and one of them is now being eyed off for organ donation. So thanks to all offers for the 1854-0003. The 2N1701 in a T08 is my next quest... 2009/8/10 Dave M : >> Hi all, >> >> Latest update. >> >> With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been >> isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 >> is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. >> >> Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be >> able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP >> internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. >> >> After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good >> descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is >> interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? >> >> Regards and thanks to all! >> >> Jim Palfreyman >> >> > > > Jim, the 1854-0003 is a pretty common HP part in older eqpt. If you have > junked 5245L counter handy, it's full of them, especially in the decade > counter PCBs. If you don't have one handy, I have an assembly here with 8 > of them on it. If you like, I can send it right away (if you're outside the > USA, you pay postage). > > Dave M > masondg44 at comcast dot net > > I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the > self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the > purpose. > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 106B quartz frequency standard...the story
carefully crack open the old to8 can to expose the leads internally, strip out the old transistor and cobble the to220 on top with appropriate leads. The to220 should fit under one of the old mounting screws? one direction will give the base and emitter connections properly. Don Jim Palfreyman > Thanks for that! - I do have a number of the 5254L units and one of > them is now being eyed off for organ donation. So thanks to all offers > for the 1854-0003. > > The 2N1701 in a T08 is my next quest... > > 2009/8/10 Dave M : >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Latest update. >>> >>> With some help and phone calls from Bill the fault seems to have been >>> isolated. I have removed Q11 from inside the oven and it is cactus. Q9 >>> is also very suspect so I'm going to replace that for good measure. >>> >>> Q9 is a 2N1701 in a T08 package. Thanks to various people I should be >>> able to track one down. Q11 is marked as 1854-0003 and that's an HP >>> internal number and all I know. Might have to substitute that one. >>> >>> After all this I have some quality photos and can knock up some good >>> descriptions of the repairs and the 106B internals if anyone is >>> interested. Any websites hanging around that want to take what I have? >>> >>> Regards and thanks to all! >>> >>> Jim Palfreyman >>> >>> >> >> >> Jim, the 1854-0003 is a pretty common HP part in older eqpt. If you >> have >> junked 5245L counter handy, it's full of them, especially in the decade >> counter PCBs. If you don't have one handy, I have an assembly here with >> 8 >> of them on it. If you like, I can send it right away (if you're outside >> the >> USA, you pay postage). >> >> Dave M >> masondg44 at comcast dot net >> >> I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the >> self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the >> purpose. >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
