Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
You can use www.timenuts.com to reach my forum, I can be reached here or there and several other places, all are welcome. Stanley - Original Message From: Steve Rooke To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 12:53:56 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum On 25 August 2010 17:43, wrote: > > Stanley, > > how about the " TIME-GURU " name? Or how about:- time-sane time-slow time-not-so-nuts time-nuts-beginners time-nuts-non-exclusive time-nuts-not-bruce time-for-a-change time-stupid-questions or even:- time-nuts-excluded We are in danger of ending up with a TekScopes2 group here and do we really want to fork the group. Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Well, if you can't use nuts, try flakes. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: erniepe...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:43 AM Stanley, how about the " TIME-GURU " name? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
On 25 August 2010 17:43, wrote: > > Stanley, > > how about the " TIME-GURU " name? Or how about:- time-sane time-slow time-not-so-nuts time-nuts-beginners time-nuts-non-exclusive time-nuts-not-bruce time-for-a-change time-stupid-questions or even:- time-nuts-excluded We are in danger of ending up with a TekScopes2 group here and do we really want to fork the group. Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once. - Einstein ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Stanley Reynolds wrote: > Personal Preference, Restrictions with the mail list format, would like a > better > way to search content. I don't think that a webforum will add any additional value that the mailinglist doesnt have already. It definitly isn't easier to search, nor is it easier to discuss anything. A mediocre mail client is better than any webforum i've ever seen (no, yahoo webmail doesn't even count as a bad mail client). If you want to have different topics collected and a one-stop reference website, i'd suggest using a wiki instead. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Stanley, how about the " TIME-GURU " name? -Original Message- From: Stanley Reynolds To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum No, all my idea, I have not asked anyone's permission. I meant no disrespect. Stanley - Original Message rom: Heathkid o: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ent: Tue, August 24, 2010 11:26:21 PM ubject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Stanley, I was under the impression you already had the permission of the *founders* to se the "time-nuts" name to start up this new forum. Was I mistaken? 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: "WB6BNQ" o: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" ent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:05 AM ubject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Stanley, It seems to me that "we" already have/had one somewhere [ ? ] or it was proposed and started but did not get off the ground [ ? ] However, I could be wrong or seriously confused. The nature of the timenuts list was supposed to be a low key - low noise list, not a beginners Q&A service and project workout. If you do get started and flying, perhaps your forum could handle that beginners Q&A service and the, sometimes, large load of the project traffic. I agree with Brian Kirby concerning respecting the "Timenuts" title and so forth. John Ackermann has put a lot of time and effort into the basis of the "Timenuts" list, not to mention the expense of hosting and maintaining the ist and its archives. The "Timenuts" moniker, while recognized and respected internationally, is a form of prior "art" and may well constitute a form of copyright. I would suggest that not only is it proper to ask him his feelings but may require his permission for use of his list moniker. BillWB6BNQ Stanley Reynolds wrote: > Started setting up a time-nuts board at: > > http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums > > Need ideas for topics. > > Stanley > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __ ime-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com o unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts nd follow the instructions there. __ ime-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com o unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts nd follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
No, all my idea, I have not asked anyone's permission. I meant no disrespect. Stanley - Original Message From: Heathkid To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 11:26:21 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Stanley, I was under the impression you already had the permission of the *founders* to use the "time-nuts" name to start up this new forum. Was I mistaken? 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: "WB6BNQ" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum > Stanley, > > It seems to me that "we" already have/had one somewhere [ ? ] or it was >proposed > and started but did not get off the ground [ ? ] However, I could be wrong or > seriously confused. > > The nature of the timenuts list was supposed to be a low key - low noise list, > not a beginners Q&A service and project workout. If you do get started and > flying, perhaps your forum could handle that beginners Q&A service and the, > sometimes, large load of the project traffic. > > I agree with Brian Kirby concerning respecting the "Timenuts" title and so > forth. John Ackermann has put a lot of time and effort into the basis of the > "Timenuts" list, not to mention the expense of hosting and maintaining the list > and its archives. > > The "Timenuts" moniker, while recognized and respected internationally, is a >form > of prior "art" and may well constitute a form of copyright. I would suggest > that not only is it proper to ask him his feelings but may require his >permission > for use of his list moniker. > > BillWB6BNQ > > > Stanley Reynolds wrote: > >> Started setting up a time-nuts board at: >> >> http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums >> >> Need ideas for topics. >> >> Stanley >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] radioactive decay rates change? Mr Shortts, a resonate ramble.
I don't have any of the toys I had as a kid because I was always taking them apart to see how they worked. Most of the time I couldn't get them back together and my dad wouldn't put them together for me. He said "you took it apart, you put it back together". When I got a little older I was more careful in how I took them apart so I could put them back together. Then I started tinkering with clocks. Dad taught me how to remove the escapement so the hands would really fly. One of the first things I did was to put a tinker toy wheel on the hour hand shaft and run a string belt to the wheel of a toy tractor. That was my first home made wind-up toy. The tiny electric motors used in slot cars didn't come along until I was fully grown. Who knows what I would have made if they had been available when I was 10. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "clock trust" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Cc: "Kyle Bosworth" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:42 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] radioactive decay rates change? Mr Shortts,a resonate ramble. First of all, please excuse the English, I suffer from dyslexia. It was great to see the article by Dan Stober. After reading the article, I had thoughts on this summers day, flooded with electro-magnetic waves from the sun, after heavy rain fall, with the southern hem, in winter time and somebody talking on Radio 4 about people trapped in winter time under ground, just to say a few words about a single man, that change time and transmission of time signals, and the 20th century. More to the point, what makes these great people, what facilitates them to prototype, the good old blue peter badges of the future. These kind of resonated with Dans article, don't ask me why. For those that wade through the thick soup of dyslexia, that make up this article, please excuse the length. If you don't want to read it all, please go to the end bit. Well lets start to push and feel the force that pushes back. Its nearly 100 years since the Shortts clock was tested by prof Simpson (hope I smelt, sorry, spelt that right) in Edinburgh. Its first measured the effect, on a pendulum, due to lunar cycles, then the sun over the year and then we are told the variation in gravity due to the wobble of the earth. Three of these clocks went to the Bell institute and refinement of quartz oscillators continued to open the gate towards the electronic age. We had gone from the Royal pendulum (1 meter 1 second) to micro seconds. A big jump with massive improvements on accuracy, resolution, precision The weird thing gravity itself, with an expanding universe. Its the joining force that acts locally, trying to collect back mass systems. I know most adults have difficulty with this, they understand buoyancy, but gravity seen as just belonging to big things like planets. We do start are a very early age, to unpeel this understanding. Guess what the teaching aid is, a model of a shorts clock. Its an experiment that can run for many years, and called the race4time. (Please if you still have your pendulum master clock in your school keep it, grab it and get it in the physics lab). Every time we do the workshop on the clock, I have to say, 'Hang on, the pendulum, this tiny mass system, is influenced by something 670 million miles away', one student literally shouted out, 'space is not empty, its a fabric that allows for transmission of energy, gravity and electromagnetic...'. Just a great way to start 101 questions that make think. One student explained that per meter squared, we can get up to 90kw of energy, from the sun, which of course has equivalent mass, with electro-magnetic waves from the sun. Its a love story of resonance that continues, if you push there must be something pushing (forces in pairs, good old Newton) against, in the same way transmission of any energy, depends on the 'soup' its transmitted in. With the purest environment, that constant we use for the limit of everything, C. If you do one thing next year, tell your students about the marvelous man Mr. Shortts, a humble railways (civil engineer) that put in to production the master-slave clock (two pendulums one free in a vacuum, the other synchronized to it), that opened the door to the Quartz age, electronics and the computer. Apparently in 2020 we would have reached the zenith of the electronic (solid sate) development, looking for a new clock, or concurrency through parallel processing, perhaps time for Occam and the transputer age?
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Stanley, I was under the impression you already had the permission of the *founders* to use the "time-nuts" name to start up this new forum. Was I mistaken? 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: "WB6BNQ" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Stanley, It seems to me that "we" already have/had one somewhere [ ? ] or it was proposed and started but did not get off the ground [ ? ] However, I could be wrong or seriously confused. The nature of the timenuts list was supposed to be a low key - low noise list, not a beginners Q&A service and project workout. If you do get started and flying, perhaps your forum could handle that beginners Q&A service and the, sometimes, large load of the project traffic. I agree with Brian Kirby concerning respecting the "Timenuts" title and so forth. John Ackermann has put a lot of time and effort into the basis of the "Timenuts" list, not to mention the expense of hosting and maintaining the list and its archives. The "Timenuts" moniker, while recognized and respected internationally, is a form of prior "art" and may well constitute a form of copyright. I would suggest that not only is it proper to ask him his feelings but may require his permission for use of his list moniker. BillWB6BNQ Stanley Reynolds wrote: Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Stanley, It seems to me that "we" already have/had one somewhere [ ? ] or it was proposed and started but did not get off the ground [ ? ] However, I could be wrong or seriously confused. The nature of the timenuts list was supposed to be a low key - low noise list, not a beginners Q&A service and project workout. If you do get started and flying, perhaps your forum could handle that beginners Q&A service and the, sometimes, large load of the project traffic. I agree with Brian Kirby concerning respecting the "Timenuts" title and so forth. John Ackermann has put a lot of time and effort into the basis of the "Timenuts" list, not to mention the expense of hosting and maintaining the list and its archives. The "Timenuts" moniker, while recognized and respected internationally, is a form of prior "art" and may well constitute a form of copyright. I would suggest that not only is it proper to ask him his feelings but may require his permission for use of his list moniker. BillWB6BNQ Stanley Reynolds wrote: > Started setting up a time-nuts board at: > > http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums > > Need ideas for topics. > > Stanley > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
I think "Manuals" would be a great addition; however, there are already so many places to download them and so many manuals out there... maybe a "sticky" list of sources would be best. "Microprocessors" gets a bit off topic as *everyone* has an opinion and their own favorite. That said... Time/Frequency Measurement Programming kept general could be decent as long as everyone didn't start posting thousands of lines of PIC code asking why it doesn't work. Know what I mean? - Original Message - From: "Bill Hawkins" To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Stanley, If you could siphon off the "dead horse" topics like the best microprocessor, the best instrument, and phase noise measurement you would do this list a great service. Fielding the newbies questions, and requests for manuals for obscure instruments would also be great. When this list was much smaller, we talked about how the measurement of the properties of time could be extended. List members had gotten past the common topics. tvb was a regular contributor. Now the noise level is rather high, and we've gotten our first "no subject" query. When you wish for growth, be careful what you wish for. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Stanley Reynolds Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:44 PM Personal Preference, Restrictions with the mail list format, would like a better way to search content. Stanley - Original Message From: Brian Kirby Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 9:36:24 PM Whats the reason and motive for this ? On 8/24/2010 8:50 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
How about a section for frequency measurement? Guy -Original Message- Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Stanley, If you could siphon off the "dead horse" topics like the best microprocessor, the best instrument, and phase noise measurement you would do this list a great service. Fielding the newbies questions, and requests for manuals for obscure instruments would also be great. When this list was much smaller, we talked about how the measurement of the properties of time could be extended. List members had gotten past the common topics. tvb was a regular contributor. Now the noise level is rather high, and we've gotten our first "no subject" query. When you wish for growth, be careful what you wish for. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: Stanley Reynolds Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:44 PM Personal Preference, Restrictions with the mail list format, would like a better way to search content. Stanley - Original Message From: Brian Kirby Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 9:36:24 PM Whats the reason and motive for this ? On 8/24/2010 8:50 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: > Started setting up a time-nuts board at: > > http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums > > Need ideas for topics. > > Stanley > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
We'll good luck and happy trails...In respect for John Ackermann's work and the TAPR list that time-nuts originated from, you should be considerate and pick a different name. Brian Kirby - KD4FM On 8/24/2010 9:43 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: Personal Preference, Restrictions with the mail list format, would like a better way to search content. Stanley - Original Message From: Brian Kirby To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 9:36:24 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Whats the reason and motive for this ? On 8/24/2010 8:50 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Personal Preference, Restrictions with the mail list format, would like a better way to search content. Stanley - Original Message From: Brian Kirby To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 9:36:24 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Whats the reason and motive for this ? On 8/24/2010 8:50 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: > Started setting up a time-nuts board at: > > http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums > > Need ideas for topics. > > Stanley > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Whats the reason and motive for this ? On 8/24/2010 8:50 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Stanley, to add to what you already have, I'd recommend: Rb Standards Cs Standards Other Oscillators GPS Test Equipment and always a good one... "Getting Started". 73 Brice KA8MAV - Original Message - From: "Stanley Reynolds" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:50 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Bulletin Board / Forum
Started setting up a time-nuts board at: http://forums.n4iqt.com/modules.php?name=Forums Need ideas for topics. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] radioactive decay rates change? Mr Shortts, a resonate ramble.
Many thanks for posting that. I'll think about it and reply to you. My first thought is that if you were born with the genes for a creative brain, you just naturally want to take things apart. Meanwhile, back to taking apart this frequency synthesizer. Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Hi If the sidebands are un-correlated noise then they add as power (3db). If they are correlated they add as voltage (6db). Noisy modulation processes produce correlated sidebands. Close in noise likely comes from a modulation process. Far removed noise is unlikely to be a result of modulation. Bob On Aug 24, 2010, at 4:24 PM, dk...@arcor.de wrote: > > > > Von: Bob Camp > >> If you start with a mixer that runs 500 mV / radian (an RPD-1 at the typical >> 8 mV / degree + 10%) then -180 below that would be 0.5 nV. Since noise it >> coherent close in, the DSB to SSB process nets you 1 nV out when you have >> -180 dbc noise. > > Adding the two sidebands may double the power, but not the voltage? > > > 73, Gerhard > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fw: NE602AD as frequency doubler
Hi If you want a fairly clean 80 MHz, you will need a bit more bandpass filtering. Doing the filtering and the phase shift at the same time probably makes sense. Dif amp doublers may be simpler overall. Normally a doubler is implemented as a single transistor stage driven to clipping with a tuned collector - even fewer components. Bob On Aug 24, 2010, at 4:16 PM, Stanley Reynolds wrote: > > > > > - Forwarded Message > From: Stanley Reynolds > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 2:58:04 PM > Subject: NE602AD as frequency doubler > > Attached is a cut and paste from several sources with most of the circuit > from > the Phillips' application note 1983 Figure 15. > > The application note does not specify component values but I found a > calculator > online just not sure it applies. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Stanley > <8x.JPG> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Von: Bob Camp > If you start with a mixer that runs 500 mV / radian (an RPD-1 at the typical > 8 mV / degree + 10%) then -180 below that would be 0.5 nV. Since noise it > coherent close in, the DSB to SSB process nets you 1 nV out when you have > -180 dbc noise. Adding the two sidebands may double the power, but not the voltage? 73, Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Hi For a one time frequency response check, a directional coupler and a signal generator do a pretty good job of creating a useful test tone. Bob On Aug 24, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Having a simple method of determining the preamp frequency response can be a > useful diagnostic tool during development, particularly if one uses componets > like super capacitors in the amplifier signal path. > > If one doesnt have a suitable offset source handy the mixer ports can be > driven in near quadrature by the same signal and the dc output as a function > of the relative phase shift between the 2 mixer inputs can be used. > > However neither method calibrates the phase noise frequency response of the > system. > Adding RF noise to one of the mixer inputs can be used to measure the > frequency response of the system. > If the RF noise source is uncalibrated but stable then it can be used to > measure the relative frequency response. > The results of a dc (or beat frequency) measurement of the gain can then be > used to correct the results to obtain a calibrated frequency response. > > If one is using a capacitive or other non conventional mixer IF port > termination, then knowing the relative frequency response can be vital. > > Bruce > > Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> I've always calibrated my phase noise setups to the phase slope of the mixer >> I'm using. It does involve switching gains, but it's a direct system >> calibration. Beat note is 360 degrees, so this chunk is x degrees and you >> got y mv over that chunk. Check the slope on the other side of the beat note >> to make sure it's the same. Do some math and you have a radian to volt >> transfer function. >> >> If you are sorting junk box OCXO's it's a pretty good way to do it. The only >> added steps are an independent measurement of the switched gain / gain >> flatness and a short circuit input check to estimate the noise floor. Both >> are an initial setup / one time only sort of thing with most amps. >> >> Bob >> >> -Original Message- >> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths >> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:25 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject) >> >> Bob Camp wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> >> < CHOP> >> >> Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound card frequency response using >> the thermal noise of a resistor is convenient. >> This is more difficult to achieve with a bipolar input stage as the >> amplifier input current noise is significant. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt zero baseline
Hi Time data reported in the same manner supports the same "2 to 4 ns" over similar time periods. Bob On Aug 24, 2010, at 3:46 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote: > Dear tbolt-nuts, > > A friend and I have played a little with zero baseline tests and > Thunderbolts. > > Have some very early results, on measurements from two identical TAPR > Tbolts. These were connected to the same antenna. Its a good antenna, with > a rather open skyview. One receiver was hooked on a 4-port passive GPS > splitter that is connected to the antenna with some 15m of LMR400. The > other tbolt got signals from a downstream 8-port HP L1-splitter. > > Both receivers had identical configuration. Non-default settings with > tboltmon was, > >message 0x5A enabled (incl. pseudorange and doppler) >doppler smoothed pseudorange (not relevant for todays discussion) >synchronized measurements(what does this do exactly?) > > Both receivers have done site surveys. Surveyed positions not identical. > Position diff TBD. > > Raw serial data was collected with two sessions of 'TsipNmeaDemo', each of > the Tbolts connected with USB-serial cables. Some 20 minutes of continous > data was collected from the receivers. Message 0x5a was decoded. > > In the first plot shows (tbolt1.dopper - tbolt2.doppler) for all 8 tracked > satellites. Results are scaled from Hz at L1 to m/s. A few satellits have > a std dev around 1cm/s, most around 5mm/s. This equals 8 measurements a > second with a noise of 1/30ns or better. > > http://www.lysator.liu.se/~bg/timenuts/sd_doppler.png > > Second plot shows a simple integration (summation) of the above > velocities. The worst satellite moves around 90cm (ca 3ns) in 20 minutes. > > http://www.lysator.liu.se/~bg/timenuts/csum_sd_doppler.png > > Any comments? questions? > > Has anyone else played with 0x5a on their Thunderbolts? > > -- > >Björn > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Having a simple method of determining the preamp frequency response can be a useful diagnostic tool during development, particularly if one uses componets like super capacitors in the amplifier signal path. If one doesnt have a suitable offset source handy the mixer ports can be driven in near quadrature by the same signal and the dc output as a function of the relative phase shift between the 2 mixer inputs can be used. However neither method calibrates the phase noise frequency response of the system. Adding RF noise to one of the mixer inputs can be used to measure the frequency response of the system. If the RF noise source is uncalibrated but stable then it can be used to measure the relative frequency response. The results of a dc (or beat frequency) measurement of the gain can then be used to correct the results to obtain a calibrated frequency response. If one is using a capacitive or other non conventional mixer IF port termination, then knowing the relative frequency response can be vital. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi I've always calibrated my phase noise setups to the phase slope of the mixer I'm using. It does involve switching gains, but it's a direct system calibration. Beat note is 360 degrees, so this chunk is x degrees and you got y mv over that chunk. Check the slope on the other side of the beat note to make sure it's the same. Do some math and you have a radian to volt transfer function. If you are sorting junk box OCXO's it's a pretty good way to do it. The only added steps are an independent measurement of the switched gain / gain flatness and a short circuit input check to estimate the noise floor. Both are an initial setup / one time only sort of thing with most amps. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:25 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject) Bob Camp wrote: Hi < CHOP> Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound card frequency response using the thermal noise of a resistor is convenient. This is more difficult to achieve with a bipolar input stage as the amplifier input current noise is significant. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt zero baseline
Dear tbolt-nuts, A friend and I have played a little with zero baseline tests and Thunderbolts. Have some very early results, on measurements from two identical TAPR Tbolts. These were connected to the same antenna. Its a good antenna, with a rather open skyview. One receiver was hooked on a 4-port passive GPS splitter that is connected to the antenna with some 15m of LMR400. The other tbolt got signals from a downstream 8-port HP L1-splitter. Both receivers had identical configuration. Non-default settings with tboltmon was, message 0x5A enabled (incl. pseudorange and doppler) doppler smoothed pseudorange (not relevant for todays discussion) synchronized measurements(what does this do exactly?) Both receivers have done site surveys. Surveyed positions not identical. Position diff TBD. Raw serial data was collected with two sessions of 'TsipNmeaDemo', each of the Tbolts connected with USB-serial cables. Some 20 minutes of continous data was collected from the receivers. Message 0x5a was decoded. In the first plot shows (tbolt1.dopper - tbolt2.doppler) for all 8 tracked satellites. Results are scaled from Hz at L1 to m/s. A few satellits have a std dev around 1cm/s, most around 5mm/s. This equals 8 measurements a second with a noise of 1/30ns or better. http://www.lysator.liu.se/~bg/timenuts/sd_doppler.png Second plot shows a simple integration (summation) of the above velocities. The worst satellite moves around 90cm (ca 3ns) in 20 minutes. http://www.lysator.liu.se/~bg/timenuts/csum_sd_doppler.png Any comments? questions? Has anyone else played with 0x5a on their Thunderbolts? -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Hi I've always calibrated my phase noise setups to the phase slope of the mixer I'm using. It does involve switching gains, but it's a direct system calibration. Beat note is 360 degrees, so this chunk is x degrees and you got y mv over that chunk. Check the slope on the other side of the beat note to make sure it's the same. Do some math and you have a radian to volt transfer function. If you are sorting junk box OCXO's it's a pretty good way to do it. The only added steps are an independent measurement of the switched gain / gain flatness and a short circuit input check to estimate the noise floor. Both are an initial setup / one time only sort of thing with most amps. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:25 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject) Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > < CHOP > Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound card frequency response using the thermal noise of a resistor is convenient. This is more difficult to achieve with a bipolar input stage as the amplifier input current noise is significant. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] radioactive decay rates change? Mr Shortts, a resonate ramble.
First of all, please excuse the English, I suffer from dyslexia. It was great to see the article by Dan Stober. After reading the article, I had thoughts on this summers day, flooded with electro-magnetic waves from the sun, after heavy rain fall, with the southern hem, in winter time and somebody talking on Radio 4 about people trapped in winter time under ground, just to say a few words about a single man, that change time and transmission of time signals, and the 20th century. More to the point, what makes these great people, what facilitates them to prototype, the good old blue peter badges of the future. These kind of resonated with Dans article, don't ask me why. For those that wade through the thick soup of dyslexia, that make up this article, please excuse the length. If you don't want to read it all, please go to the end bit. Well lets start to push and feel the force that pushes back. Its nearly 100 years since the Shortts clock was tested by prof Simpson (hope I smelt, sorry, spelt that right) in Edinburgh. Its first measured the effect, on a pendulum, due to lunar cycles, then the sun over the year and then we are told the variation in gravity due to the wobble of the earth. Three of these clocks went to the Bell institute and refinement of quartz oscillators continued to open the gate towards the electronic age. We had gone from the Royal pendulum (1 meter 1 second) to micro seconds. A big jump with massive improvements on accuracy, resolution, precision The weird thing gravity itself, with an expanding universe. Its the joining force that acts locally, trying to collect back mass systems. I know most adults have difficulty with this, they understand buoyancy, but gravity seen as just belonging to big things like planets. We do start are a very early age, to unpeel this understanding. Guess what the teaching aid is, a model of a shorts clock. Its an experiment that can run for many years, and called the race4time. (Please if you still have your pendulum master clock in your school keep it, grab it and get it in the physics lab). Every time we do the workshop on the clock, I have to say, 'Hang on, the pendulum, this tiny mass system, is influenced by something 670 million miles away', one student literally shouted out, 'space is not empty, its a fabric that allows for transmission of energy, gravity and electromagnetic...'. Just a great way to start 101 questions that make think. One student explained that per meter squared, we can get up to 90kw of energy, from the sun, which of course has equivalent mass, with electro-magnetic waves from the sun. Its a love story of resonance that continues, if you push there must be something pushing (forces in pairs, good old Newton) against, in the same way transmission of any energy, depends on the 'soup' its transmitted in. With the purest environment, that constant we use for the limit of everything, C. If you do one thing next year, tell your students about the marvelous man Mr. Shortts, a humble railways (civil engineer) that put in to production the master-slave clock (two pendulums one free in a vacuum, the other synchronized to it), that opened the door to the Quartz age, electronics and the computer. Apparently in 2020 we would have reached the zenith of the electronic (solid sate) development, looking for a new clock, or concurrency through parallel processing, perhaps time for Occam and the transputer age? We are going to need a new age of math's, physics, electrical, electronic, chemistry.A new drum to beat against. Or what ever the new multi-disciplines will be, to enable the ever increasing length of the journey of discovery to be transferred to new minds, the future. With science being inclusive, rather than separate, sure this is possible. This week, two very bright students, have turned away from physics, one went to University and found a harsh environment, the other barely a year into his course. This is a great shame or do we want this survival of the fittest, these where bright students, it was the environment they had problems with. Again inclusion as early as possible, gives broad understanding to population, those that want to follow the journey further, the future scientist. Without getting political, in a money orientated world, most of the jumps between principle to production, by good communicators, able to get the funding. So it could be survival of those that can speak the gab? If we look at the past, from Harrison with the chronometer, Lord Grinthorpe with gravity arm, Hope Jones and the synchronome (radio transmission of time signals soon after Marconi, the Horophone and good old Brillie master clock system and effile tower) and Mr. Shortts free pendulum. The jumps, to resonating strips of metal, to quartz, atomic, light and nuclear, we have gone from the heavens to the elementary particles, almost in 100 years. (By the way the development of
Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurement (was - no subject)
Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you start with a mixer that runs 500 mV / radian (an RPD-1 at the typical 8 mV / degree + 10%) then -180 below that would be 0.5 nV. Since noise it coherent close in, the DSB to SSB process nets you 1 nV out when you have -180 dbc noise. With a capacitive IF port termination the mixer sensitivity increases somewhat. It increases more when using something like an HP10514 or 10534 than with an RPD-1. Such a termination isnt particularly useful for offsets much above 100kHz or so. If one terminates all mixer ports in 50 ohms as some insist is the best method, then the mixer phase sensitivity is much lower, in which case a somewhat lower noise preamp may be required. The posted plot does show (together with the noise plot for the HPS5.1 preamp) that the 2SK369 and the IF9030 have much lower flicker noise than the BF862. On Aug 22, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: So everything above (and an AD797 and likely an OP-37) will do better than 2 nV / Hz into 1K Hz. That would let you check oscillators in the "below -170", but not below -180 range. You might or might not find such an oscillator in your junk box. They certainly do exist. On the plot above, both devices would let you do the same thing at 10 Hz. Now you are into the range of "highly unlikely to find". At reasonable frequencies, -135 is doing pretty well at 10 Hz. Bragging rights start at about -140. "Highly unlikely" cuts in much past that 10 Hz offset. I'm not talking about a one of a kind piece of magic at NIST, but about what's in your junk box. The 2SK369 is still holding "ok for -170" at 1 Hz. Even for one of a kind magic, that's pretty crazy. Unlikely to find (and really tough to measure) cuts in at about -120 at 1 Hz. At 0.1 Hz offset, you will need to run an instrument bandwidth below 0.01 Hz to get anything close to a good approximation to the noise. Most lab analyzers run> 100X t to get enough data. That puts you out around 10,000 seconds for the run. That's a crazy long time. DC coupled offsets are likely to nuke that run just about every time. I'm by no means knocking the idea of having a good preamp. I'm only trying to point out that the numbers above are *way* past what a reasonable person might need to sort through their basement oscillator collection. 50 db is a lot of margin. Bob For an AC coupled sound card based spectrum analyser dc frequencies much below 2Hz or so are of little interest. Being able to calibrate the preamp + sound card frequency response using the thermal noise of a resistor is convenient. This is more difficult to achieve with a bipolar input stage as the amplifier input current noise is significant. Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] radioactive decay rates change?
On 08/24/2010 08:56 AM, WB6BNQ wrote: Poul, That is absolutely not true ! Those CS-133's work very hard radiating from F1 to F2 and back again at 9+ GHz ! BillWB6BNQ Very small hams? PHK naturally meant radioactive decay... Cheers, Magnus Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message<4c72f32a.9000...@elfpen.com>, Chris Howard writes: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/sun-082310.html Any implication for CS clocks? No. Cs133 is not radioactive. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
