Re: [time-nuts] HP quality
In message 20110911230455.257daa0...@locke.alientech.net, Mike S writes: [...] along with ISO 900*, which amounts to you can make crap, as long as you document it and try to do better. ISO9000 has no requirement that you try to do better. ISO9000's only requires that you can document how crap your wares are, and that you can document how you determined that. You can be ISO9000 certified with this QA process: Kick a tire, listen for rattling sound, if not too bad sounding, check 'Inspection OK' box on price-sign. The only thing you have to document subsequently, is that all cars had at least one tire kicked. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz graphs
In message 20110912062205.0723a800...@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net, Hal Mu rray writes: Here is a time step on the machine collecting the data. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/60Hz/60Hz-g14.png http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/60Hz/60Hz-g14-freq.png In your /etc/ntp.conf, make sure all server lines have maxpoll 6 -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPS Antenna
Hi all! First let me introduce myself: I am a time nut since 1996 (former admin of a stratum 2 server: bug.fe.up.pt) but college and other priorities kept me away from my obsession. The other day I happened to buy a Garmin 18 LVC unit and installed it in the roof in my company. It has been working great and it handled the hot days of August quite well. It shares it's time with the entire network through NTP. Here it is: tick# ntpq -pn remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter == *127.127.20.0.GPS.0 l1 16 3770.0000.010 0.004 10.0.2.9.GPS.1 u4 16 3770.1610.012 0.007 194.117.9.130 194.117.9.1292 u 33 64 377 14.8101.154 0.886 194.117.9.136 194.117.9.1382 u 62 64 377 14.307 -2.253 3.324 193.136.5.7 193.136.250.246 2 u 18 64 377 11.7191.549 0.811 193.136.5.15193.136.250.246 2 u 43 64 377 15.9221.166 0.819 178.79.160.159 217.20.44.6 2 u 51 64 377 43.315 -0.816 0.666 BTW, it's an embedded machine (ALIX 1D) running FreeBSD 7.4 out of a Compact Flash card. I am looking at other stratum 2 servers to see if my time is off. I also added another stratum 1 server (tock, 10.0.2.9) using the same FreeBSD/CF configuration but on a more powerful machine (an old server laying around). This time I used a Sure GPS Evaluation Board. Here it is: tock# ntpq -pn remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter == o127.127.20.0.GPS.0 l6 16 3770.000 -0.009 0.001 10.0.2.10 .GPS.1 u3 16 3770.176 -0.015 0.004 194.117.9.130 194.117.9.1382 u 29 64 377 14.4580.837 2.336 194.117.9.136 194.117.9.1382 u 22 64 377 14.073 -2.361 2.371 193.136.5.7 193.136.250.246 2 u 20 64 377 12.4251.420 0.377 193.136.5.15193.136.250.246 2 u 26 64 377 16.5941.651 0.924 178.79.160.159 217.20.44.6 2 u 23 64 377 44.289 -0.722 1.819 I've also installed, at home, a FreeBSD machine (same software as before) but this time I hooked it with a Motorola Oncore UT+ (great unit by the way) and configured it to resolve only time (averaged the antenna location for 24 hours). This machine is also running NTP: oncore# ntpq -p remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter == oGPS_ONCORE(0) .GPS.0 l 12 16 3770.0000.002 0.001 canon.inria.fr .GPSi. 1 u 30 64 377 56.2183.469 0.261 ptbtime1.ptb.de .PTB.1 u 23 64 377 65.3950.225 0.355 ntp.inrim.it.CTD.1 u7 64 377 50.8400.185 0.314 ntp02.oal.ul.pt 194.117.9.1382 u 61 64 377 10.703 -0.811 2.863 ntp04.oal.ul.pt 194.117.9.1382 u 46 64 377 10.361 -3.673 0.401 Router7.Lisboa. 193.136.250.246 2 u 17 64 3778.313 -0.189 0.390 Router15.Porto. 193.136.250.246 2 u 65 64 377 13.0520.040 0.280 li298-159.membe 217.20.44.6 2 u 64 64 377 40.719 -2.208 0.385 The Oncore machine has the antenna indoors (near the window) and after looking at the clockstats file I have this oncore# /var/tmp/sats.sh 8 satellites:0 7 satellites:0 6 satellites: 870 5 satellites: 7941 4 satellites: 7313 3 satellites: 6385 2 satellites: 575 1 satellites:0 The machine has been running for 6 hours and it has been seeing a good number of satellites for most of the time. Do you think I should buy an external antenna like this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Panasonic-NAis-VIC-100-TNC-Timing-GPS-L1-Active-Antenna-/180721168817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2a13d231b1or my current antenna ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=330464866792) is good enough used indoors? Thanks for your help. Cheers, Miguel ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP quality
I prefer the precis. (which apparently he never said). BTW, I thought the bucket of marbles test was pretty cute. -John == On 9/11/11 7:00 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 9/11/11 3:14 PM, gary wrote: Since Demming is also the father of SPC, I'd like to know the context of that statement. I'll find it.. but I think it's in the context of the process has to be good Found it (thank you wikipedia, saving me hiking upstairs to rummage through the books) Deming, 1986, Out of the Crisis Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for massive inspection by building quality into the product in the first place. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP quality
Hi: When I was working there was an on site class that lasted many weeks on Statistical Process Control. The initial part had to do with the various ways of measuring groups of products and the charts to display the data. The idea was to get the average and standard deviation for each group and plot those two values. The people doing the work could then tell when the product was out of tolerance or about to go out of tolerance and they knew how to fix that. It was management's job to change the process in such a way to improve yield. The much more interesting part of the class involved the management implications of SPC. It turns out that throughout my working career the people managing the meetings never did ask the important questions. For more see: http://www.prc68.com/I/Learning.shtml#Important Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.End2PartyGovernment.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
Hi Chris! Here and on ntp-questions always helping me out! Thanks! Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Anyway, in position hold I would assume that using 2 satellites will give me good time. Right? Thanks again! Cheers, Miguel On 12 September 2011 16:03, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com:.. oncore# /var/tmp/sats.sh 8 satellites:0 7 satellites:0 6 satellites: 870 5 satellites: 7941 4 satellites: 7313 3 satellites: 6385 2 satellites: 575 1 satellites:0 The machine has been running for 6 hours and it has been seeing a good number of satellites for most of the time. Do you think I should buy an external antenna . It looks like your current antenna can only see about 1/2 of the sky. The reason to replace it is so you can see the entire sky. the Panasonic would be ideal because it has enough gain to drive a long cable. THere is no resin to replace the antenna unless you intend to place it in a better location. A higher gain at the same location will not give you a better view of the sky. Any outdoor antenna needs to be pointed or have a dome shape so that whatever falls on it rolls off. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. attachment: satellites.svg___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Although we own our building, for other reasons I was under similar constraints. I put our antennas as high as possible in a skylight, which is working very nicely. The skylight may have issues with snow, but I won't know that for another month or so. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com: Hi Chris! Here and on ntp-questions always helping me out! Thanks! Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Anyway, in position hold I would assume that using 2 satellites will give me good time. Right? I think you have already proved that it can work.This is an apartment or condo? If so then all you can do is either indoors or at best a pole that hangs out the window or maybe a south facing balcony rail mount. If it's not your building then you can't even drill a hole through the wall so you are stuck with indoors. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
Hi! It's an apartment. I'll check today where south is to see what I can do. Two last questions about clockstats 55816 60529.233 127.127.30.0 3524834928.99971 2011 255 16 48 49 48 rstat 08 dop 0.0 nsat 12,4 traim 1,0,0 sigma 54 neg-sawtooth 13 sat 38808008 I was wondering what does sigma 54 mean... Is it the One Sigma Timing error? Meaning 54 ns? What about sat 38808008? I assume this is the status of the tracked satellites. 8 means is being tracked while 3 is about to be tracked. Am I right? Thanks for your patience and help. Cheers, Miguel On 12 September 2011 17:41, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com: Hi Chris! Here and on ntp-questions always helping me out! Thanks! Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Anyway, in position hold I would assume that using 2 satellites will give me good time. Right? I think you have already proved that it can work.This is an apartment or condo? If so then all you can do is either indoors or at best a pole that hangs out the window or maybe a south facing balcony rail mount. If it's not your building then you can't even drill a hole through the wall so you are stuck with indoors. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
South? Are you sure? GPS SVs aren't TV broadcast satellites... On 9/12/11, Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com wrote: Hi! It's an apartment. I'll check today where south is to see what I can do. Two last questions about clockstats 55816 60529.233 127.127.30.0 3524834928.99971 2011 255 16 48 49 48 rstat 08 dop 0.0 nsat 12,4 traim 1,0,0 sigma 54 neg-sawtooth 13 sat 38808008 I was wondering what does sigma 54 mean... Is it the One Sigma Timing error? Meaning 54 ns? What about sat 38808008? I assume this is the status of the tracked satellites. 8 means is being tracked while 3 is about to be tracked. Am I right? Thanks for your patience and help. Cheers, Miguel On 12 September 2011 17:41, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com: Hi Chris! Here and on ntp-questions always helping me out! Thanks! Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Anyway, in position hold I would assume that using 2 satellites will give me good time. Right? I think you have already proved that it can work.This is an apartment or condo? If so then all you can do is either indoors or at best a pole that hangs out the window or maybe a south facing balcony rail mount. If it's not your building then you can't even drill a hole through the wall so you are stuck with indoors. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
In theory at least, a single satellite is enough to provide timing in position hold mode. However, that assumes you get a direct line-of-sight signal, with no multipath. A reflected signal has additional delay that the GPS receiver cannot factor out if it's receiving only one satellite. If it is receiving many, it *might* be able to tell which ones have multipath delays and ignore them. A high antenna tends to have good line-of-sight reception of the satellites, as well as receiving more of them. The former might be more important than the latter. Dave 2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com: Hi Chris! Here and on ntp-questions always helping me out! Thanks! Moving it up to the roof would be difficult. Would have to talk to all neighbours to ask permission to run a cable to the roof. I'll have to keep it at this location. Anyway, in position hold I would assume that using 2 satellites will give me good time. Right? Thanks again! Cheers, Miguel On 12 September 2011 16:03, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/9/12 Miguel Gonçalves m...@miguelgoncalves.com:.. oncore# /var/tmp/sats.sh 8 satellites: 0 7 satellites: 0 6 satellites: 870 5 satellites: 7941 4 satellites: 7313 3 satellites: 6385 2 satellites: 575 1 satellites: 0 The machine has been running for 6 hours and it has been seeing a good number of satellites for most of the time. Do you think I should buy an external antenna . It looks like your current antenna can only see about 1/2 of the sky. The reason to replace it is so you can see the entire sky. the Panasonic would be ideal because it has enough gain to drive a long cable. THere is no resin to replace the antenna unless you intend to place it in a better location. A higher gain at the same location will not give you a better view of the sky. Any outdoor antenna needs to be pointed or have a dome shape so that whatever falls on it rolls off. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
South? Are you sure? GPS SVs aren't TV broadcast satellites... Particularly if you are at a more northerly latitude, if you need to choose one aspect or the other, the southern aspect may provide better coverage. Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:13 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: South? Are you sure? GPS SVs aren't TV broadcast satellites... Particularly if you are at a more northerly latitude, if you need to choose one aspect or the other, the southern aspect may provide better coverage. I assumed the OP lived in the Northern Hemisphere and above about 30 degrees latitude. If I assumed correctly South is the direction to face. The GPS sats are in a (from memory) 60 degree inclined orbit so the North sky is not as well covered. The higher North you are the more you want to face south. If you are above 60 degrees no sats will be north of you. Even in the Southern USA you find there are no sats that go to near the north horizon but to the South they remain visible until blocked by the horizon. A mirror image of this applies in the So. Hemisphere. Maybe a better way to visualize this is to think that the Earth is covered with a huge shell from 60 deg. S. to 60 deg. N. with large holes over both poles. Given a choice of only one place to look don't aim the antenna at a hole. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
Yes, if you are at 55 degrees (N or S) you have satellites at most straight on your head and I think you must start facing just south, say, at 70 degrees and beyond. I'm in Italy at 45 degrees north (JN55BK QTH locator) so no such a problem. 73's de IW2DMO On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:13 AM, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: South? Are you sure? GPS SVs aren't TV broadcast satellites... Particularly if you are at a more northerly latitude, if you need to choose one aspect or the other, the southern aspect may provide better coverage. I assumed the OP lived in the Northern Hemisphere and above about 30 degrees latitude. If I assumed correctly South is the direction to face. The GPS sats are in a (from memory) 60 degree inclined orbit so the North sky is not as well covered. The higher North you are the more you want to face south. If you are above 60 degrees no sats will be north of you. Even in the Southern USA you find there are no sats that go to near the north horizon but to the South they remain visible until blocked by the horizon. A mirror image of this applies in the So. Hemisphere. Maybe a better way to visualize this is to think that the Earth is covered with a huge shell from 60 deg. S. to 60 deg. N. with large holes over both poles. Given a choice of only one place to look don't aim the antenna at a hole. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it wrote: Yes, if you are at 55 degrees (N or S) you have satellites at most straight on your head and I think you must start facing just south, say, at 70 degrees and beyond. I'm in Italy at 45 degrees north (JN55BK QTH locator) so no such a problem. Yes, you certainly have no problem. But look and I bet that you see more GPS satellites to the south than to the north.This whole thing came up in the context of an indoor GPS receiver looking out a window. Question was if you can choose any window which is best. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Antenna
OK, now I see (the indoor GPS unit) and agree (a window facing south). 73s On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:19 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@screen.it wrote: Yes, if you are at 55 degrees (N or S) you have satellites at most straight on your head and I think you must start facing just south, say, at 70 degrees and beyond. I'm in Italy at 45 degrees north (JN55BK QTH locator) so no such a problem. Yes, you certainly have no problem. But look and I bet that you see more GPS satellites to the south than to the north.This whole thing came up in the context of an indoor GPS receiver looking out a window. Question was if you can choose any window which is best. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
