Re: [time-nuts] Navsync CW-12 GPS Board - I don't believe it!!

[gary]

Wait...they said it is good enough for government work?

This is an interesting discovery, but I wonder if this is intentional 
for some not so obvious reason.


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Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally ordered one

[Robert Benward]

Hi John,
I did you what you suggested and it locks now.  I tweaked so that the output 
is only 10-20Hz above 10MHz.  It seems to lock on the way down from the peak 
(high) frequency, it doesn't seem to lock on the way up.  It seems to agree 
with one of your plots, but no the other.  You don't say what he difference 
is between the plots.  It is sensitive to vibration, it seem to unlock 
easily when bumped.  Do you know what the other trimmer is for?


Bob


- Original Message - 
From: "John Beale" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally 
ordered one




On 1/3/2012 8:20 AM, Robert Benward wrote:

I got mine for around $25 in a regular bidding affair. Mine had trouble
locking, It only locked a handful of times, and that took forever, but 
most

of the time it just sat there and cooked. The seller replaced it and the
new locks up in 2 or 3 minutes. I did not have to ship the old one back.
The Lock output signal doesn't seem to have enough drive to turn on an 
LED.


One of the three FE-5680A units I got behaved exactly that way. Turns out 
some part of a VCXO circuit had drifted over time (I assume) so the 
free-running frequency never quite reached up to 10.000 MHz enabling lock 
to the signal from the physics package. Assuming you do have a 10 MHz 
output signal, put a counter on it while it is warming up and look at the 
frequency. After I fixed it, the frequency vs time from startup plot 
looked like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7E22rkh_YivyesrnTog6atMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

The fix was to take off case top and bottom and tweak the trimmer cap 
marked C217 slightly, it is near Y200 (crystal with round PTC thermistor 
attached). Here's a photo of that part of the board: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/109928236040342205185/FE5680A?authkey=djqVhWs9LkM#5680683008490223330


Of course there may be some completely different problem with your unit, 
but it's something to try, if you want to open it up and play with it.


-John Beale






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Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

[Gary Chatters]

On 12/31/2011 07:41 PM, lstosk...@cox.net wrote:

UBLOX TIM-CJ module TIM-ST GPS engine Jupiter footprint


After finding these, and buying a couple, I found item 220915477952 
U-Blox RCB-LJ receiver boards, cheaper ($9) and (I think) newer.


If I have the spec sheets figured out, the TIM-CJ module uses a SiRF II 
module and the RCB-LJ uses ANTARIS.  Anybody know the difference?




anyone have any experience with this for timing application?


I used one of these boards, the RCB-LJ if I remember correctly, in about 
2004.  It provided both location (fixed) and time, but we did not need 
really high precision timing.  10s of microseconds was good enough.  Our 
main selection criteria was low power.


gc



N0UU



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[time-nuts] Navsync CW-12 GPS Board - I don't believe it!!

[Ed Palmer]

In the past I've mentioned the Navsync CW-12 GPS board.  Oncore M12 
drop-in replacement, 1 PPS ( measured Standard Deviation < 5 ns., range 
~ 30 ns. from min to max for 1000 measurements), and a 10 MHz output 
that's 'steered by the GPS receiver'.


The recent discussions about a cheap, simple GPSDO motivated me to try 
an idea I've had in the back of my mind for a while.  I wanted to use a 
double-balanced mixer as a phase detector to phase-lock a 10 MHz  OCXO 
to the 10 MHz output of the CW-12 at 10 MHz - no dividers.  I threw 
together a proof-of-concept circuit and it worked as expected.  But then 
I compared the OCXO output to the 10 MHz output of both a Z3801A and a 
Tbolt and discovered that the CW-12's 10 MHz output is about 1.5e-11 
(i.e. 1.5e-4 Hz) low in frequency.  I emailed Navsync and they replied:


"The CW12 Motorola Binary and NMEA versions both do not phase align the 
frequency output so the long term drift that Ed is seeing is expected."


Incredible.  It's 'steered by the GPS receiver' - that's a direct quote 
from the data sheet and the user manual - but it's not quite on 
frequency and that's fine with them.


I checked the 1 PPS and it looks okay.  Compared to the 1 PPS from the 
Tbolt, over 20K seconds it wanders back and forth over a range of about 
90 ns.  Lady Heather reported about 50 ns. of wander for the Tbolt over 
the same period.


I know that some of you have CW-12s and I just wanted to let you know 
about this.  I'd also be interested if you can run similar tests and 
confirm my results.


Ed

P.S.  I have to laugh at myself.  Here I am whining about something 
that's off by 15 parts per trillion.  I'm a time-nut all right! :-)




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Re: [time-nuts] crunching numbers from XOR phase detector

[Steve .]

Having access to two Rb sources and looking at phase shift and jitter is
something I find interesting. Has anyone fed two Rb sourced 10mhz signals
in to a high-z an op-amp and looked at the output on a SA ? Should probably
have at least 100mhz bw on the SA in order to see the events. A few tests
to run with this experiment are
1) From cold: phase spectra to lock
2) From hot(power cycle) phase spectral to lock -- both power down/up at
the same time. then vice versa
3) phase spectra relative to heat( forced air heat sinking, thermal
blanketing ,etc)

Obviously this test is geared for short term phase events, where as you are
looking for long term.  I find both equally interesting.

When i get some extra time and hardware,  I'm going to end up performing
this very test.

Steve
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Re: [time-nuts] crunching numbers from XOR phase detector

[Tom Van Baak]

There is some nonlinearity but it seems consistent from cycle to cycle. I 
might be able to reduce the bumps with better circuit layout, shorter 
wires, terminated lines etc. But just for playing around with my initial 
data, I think I can model the shape of the response and get a more accurate 
reading of instantaneous phase angle vs time. I could write some code for 
this, but I suspect this wheel has been invented before... is there any 
reference I should consult?  I think something similar is done inside the 
PIC-TIC to calibrate its response?


John,

Very nice plot. Thanks for sharing that. The next step is simply to
differentiate and then re-plot the data (you know that's just one line
of code: x[i+1] - x[i]). You should see two lines, +slope and -slope.

Then take the absolute value. You should now see one line and the
auto-scaled plot will show in much greater detail the variations of
Rb performance and/or XOR non-linearity.

Make these two plots and then I'll walk you through the next step.

/tvb


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[time-nuts] FE-5680A dumb question...

[Brian, WA1ZMS]

My E-bay FE-5680A finally arrived. (4weeks later)

 

Of the pins on the DB-9 connector, which one is the RF output?

The manual only talks about an SMA output.

 

I know this has been talked about before, but I cannot find the thread.

 

Thanks in advance & sorry for bandwidth,

-Brian, WA1ZMS

 

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[time-nuts] crunching numbers from XOR phase detector

[John Beale]

Previously I have been comparing 10 MHz frequencies using TvB's picPET 
device plus a picDIV divider to get a 1 PPS signal, but I wanted more 
resolution for comparing relative drift of two Rb references. I got square 
wave outputs from my references (see my previous posts) and I made a simple 
XOR phase detector from a single XOR gate (74LVC1G86) :


https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ofFwP8Eo1qFAzNObq69iCtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0

I have read about how nonlinear the XOR PD becomes at the endpoints (0 and 
180 phase shift) although this one seems to work pretty well, and the 
output looks reasonably triangular:


https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/swKVhhP7NerRvMKdnW8rjtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0

There is some nonlinearity but it seems consistent from cycle to cycle. I 
might be able to reduce the bumps with better circuit layout, shorter 
wires, terminated lines etc. But just for playing around with my initial 
data, I think I can model the shape of the response and get a more accurate 
reading of instantaneous phase angle vs time. I could write some code for 
this, but I suspect this wheel has been invented before... is there any 
reference I should consult?  I think something similar is done inside the 
PIC-TIC to calibrate its response?


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Re: [time-nuts] How to read Isotemp OXCO131 part numbers?

[Azelio Boriani]

Yes, found others but, for example, we use the 131-40 and have the
datasheet: can't find it from those URLs. You can find 131-42 131-45 and
131-1000, 1001, 1002 and so on. Our 131-40 was not made for us but decided
to use it with the permission of the original customer to increase the
order volume.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:02 PM,  wrote:

> In a message dated 02/01/2012 23:53:41 GMT Standard Time,
> azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:
>
> Yes,  seems difficult to find the differences but I've found at least the
> 131-2:  http://w9fz.com/ham/OCXO131-2Spec.pdf
> --
> Some more here.
>
> _http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/_
> (http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/)
>
> and here.
>
> _http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/_
> (http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/)
>
> Plus some other info on the associated pages to these links.
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] How to read Isotemp OXCO131 part numbers?

[GandalfG8]

In a message dated 02/01/2012 23:53:41 GMT Standard Time,  
azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:

Yes,  seems difficult to find the differences but I've found at least the
131-2:  http://w9fz.com/ham/OCXO131-2Spec.pdf
--
Some more here.
 
_http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/_ 
(http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/) 
 
and here.
 
_http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/_ 
(http://www.isotemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/) 
 
Plus some other info on the associated pages to these links.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally ordered one

[Robert Benward]

Peter,
Sure, If I can have a copy of what you produce.  Send me your address.  I 
assume you are in the US?


If you look on Ebay, this is one of those that was mounted on a PCB with an 
aux 68MHz osc and DB9 connector.


Bob

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Gottlieb" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally 
ordered one




  If you don't want the bad one I would be interested so I could
  disassemble and diagram it out.
  I don't want to do that to a good one.


  On 01/03/12, Robert Benward wrote:

  I got mine for around $25 in a regular bidding affair. Mine had trouble
  locking, It only locked a handful of times, and that took forever, but
  most
  of the time it just sat there and cooked. The seller replaced it and
  the
  new locks up in 2 or 3 minutes. I did not have to ship the old one
  back.
  The Lock output signal doesn't seem to have enough drive to turn on an
  LED.
  Bob
  - Original Message -
  From: "Peter Gottlieb" <[1]n...@verizon.net>
  To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
  <[2]time-nuts@febo.com>
  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally
  ordered one
  >I grabbed another one for another project. Seller was asking $42.99
  and I
  >offered 38.00. He countered at 39.00 and I accepted. Still a great
  >bargain, it would cost me much more than that to replace the failing
  OCXO
  >it replaces.
  >
  >
  > On 12/28/2011 6:35 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
  >> My 2nd one a make offer, was $38 anything under $40 and I happy.
  >>
  >> It has not arrived yet, suppose to have a OCXO
  >>
  >>
  >> -pete
  >>
  >> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:31 PM, paul swed<[3]paulsw...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  >>> Well been watching the threads on this RB ref and finally ordered
  one.
  >>> Good to see the lower price with shipping.
  >>> It does not come with the OCXO. No loss for me.
  >>> Now lets see if it ever shows up?
  >>> Regards
  >>> Paul
  >>> WB8TSL
  >>> ___
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  >>
  >> -
  >> No virus found in this message.
  >> Checked by AVG - [8]www.avg.com
  >> Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2109/4117 - Release Date:
  01/01/12
  >>
  >>
  >
  >
  >
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A clock shaping (sine -> square wave)

[David]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 07:01:13 +0100, ehydra  wrote:

>David schrieb:
>> I could analyze it on SPICE but I suspect the real world construction
>> parasitics will be what limits the performance.  I just sketched it
>> out in my notebook but I will see if I can post it somewhere.  Is
>> there a quick and dirty online schematic capture site?
>
>Scan it. I will make a LTspice file.
>
>> 
>> It is not that complicated being a differential amplifier driving
>> complementary pair of emitter followers, a pair of voltage clamps, and
>> then a pair of complementary current mirrors configured as
>> transconductance amplifiers.
>
>I want to SEE it including all circuit parameters. Thank you.

I am entering it into LT Spice for practice.  I will post the results
and files here when done.  I need to rethink the level shift
configuration.

>> When you say symmetry limiting do you mean to prevent second harmonic
>> distortion like for driving a mixer?  I was thinking of this more for
>> driving a single ended transmission line cleanly while maximizing the
>> edge rates and minimizing jitter.  Duty cycle correction could be
>> added pretty easily.
>
>Hm. I think second harmonic distortion looks very much like intentional 
>symmetric waveform in the first instance. The fun begins if we decide to 
>look for equal time distance or equal power for both phases. Interesting.
>
>> 
>> The circuit you linked is going to have a little problem since both
>> the 2N5769 and the 2N5770 are NPN and the circuit requires a pair of
>> PNPs.  Other than that it looks perfect for driving a high level
>> mixer.
>
>As far as I know driving a mixer was the circuit intention. I SPICEd it 
>with BFR93 types. The circuit has a high reflection coefficient, 
>unfortunately. Maybe this is unavoidable and we need a diplexer.

The output is low impedance, unmatched, and I suspect not quite
symmetrical so I would expect this.  Does it matter though if the
mixer is close by?

>Yes, looks like an typo for having 4 NPNs there. I will clarify this 
>with Chris Trask. Thanks.

Unfortunately, RF PNP transistors tend to be rare or expensive so when
I saw that schematic my first thought was, "Hmm.  I wonder if that is
the RF PNP I have been looking for.  I did not know the 2N5770 had a
PNP complement.  Wait a sec . . ."

I have been considering the PNP BFG21 and NPN BFG97 made by NXP.  They
are SOT-223 so should be easier to prototype with than a smaller
package.

The On Semiconductor TO-92 NPN MPSH10 and PNP MPSH81 would be good
also but the later is being discontinued.

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Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

[SAIDJACK]

Yes, and the new uBlox timing GPS have a software jamming sensor and  
indicator which the Motorola/iLotus products do not have, and they are much  
easier to get to work at a users' site than the Motorola parts, and much more  
robust against jamming than the Motorola timing GPS. We have done extensive  
tests here on our products that use the LEA-6T to prove that.
 
There are significant advantages in performance and easy-of-use to the  
ublox parts compared to all other alternatives in the market today.
 
Still the Motorola designed parts have the best timing performance with a  
margin when properly operated, so they still have significant applications 
for  many years to come - one reason we offer the uBlox parts in some of our  
products and the Motorola parts in others (i.e. Fury GPSDO).
 
BTW: 
 
I applaud the use of the eBay name in this thread.
 
I think many members here are doing a dis-sevice on this list by naming it  
ePay, 3Pay or whatever. They don't seem to remember what it was like  
getting equipment before Ebay was around, and while I curse the Ebay fees and  
policies, Ebay offers a great service, and we should give  them the respect 
they deserve in my opinion. If you don't like Ebay,  then don't use them, use 
Craigslist or used-line etc.
 
bye,
Said
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/3/2012 10:25:26 Pacific Standard Time,  
azelio.bori...@screen.it writes:

Oh no, I  was speaking always of timing version GPSes. For non timing
version GPSes  you loose the position-hold timing mode too. uBlox has T-RAIM
in the LEA6-T  version. In the block diagram of uBlox GPSes they show the
option XTAL/TCXO  for their receivers. Although not stated, I believe that
the TCXO option is  reserved for the timing version  hardware.


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <80B26DC756AA45DD84E4EB9E14B58998@Warcon28Gz>, "WarrenS" writes:

>The leakage current noise I measured was way below insignificant when things 
>are properly scaled.

Really stupid question:  Couldn't the "double condensor" from voltage
references trick be used to eliminate the leakage entirely ?



[Some op-amp] >-++--> 
||
|  -
|  -
|    |
+--||+
 |
   -
   -
 |
 |
GND




-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[WarrenS]

this thread has wandered a bit.

The thread was originally for "Simple"...

Bottom line is that electrolytic caps can be made to work fine for a 
"SIMPLE" analog controller built for home NUT use,
Not recommended for space or critical life support applications, or any 
production thing.


Besides putting the crappie RC inside a closed loop the other thing that 
seems several are missing is to limit the correction range.
If one sets up the simple loop to give say a 100 to 1 improvement, then all 
the other concerns become non-issues.


"The noise created by the leakage current in an electrolytic will be an 
issue outside the loop bandwidth and only will be reduced by the available 
gain..."
Loop Gain is not a problem when making a frequency lock loop, even with a P 
only controller, using any kind of phase detector because the gain is 
infinite.


The leakage current noise I measured was way below insignificant when things 
are properly scaled.
Such as when you scale it so you only care about a 1% of 5 volt change and 
not uv.


If you're depending on a specific time constant for a SIMPLE controller 
using electrolytic caps then the problem is the design and not the caps.
If you're want to make a 1e-10 to one correction with a simple controller 
the problem is not the cap but the configuration and the expectations.
But making a 1e-13 correction to a 1e-9 Rb is no problem  (1000 to one 
improvement)




Hal Murray Posted:
"I'm not interested in the frequency shift of the filter as the temperature
but the voltage shift due to a fixed charge as the capacitance changes."

Interesting question, so I tried it.
No effect on the One I tested.
I charged a cheapie 1000uf, 50V cap to 5 volts then changed it's temperature 
which did changed it's capacitance and leakage, but had no effect on it's 
charge voltage.
I guess the charge is not Fixed, so not the same thing as changing the value 
by paralleling the cap.


ws

**
[time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors
Bob Camp lists at rtty.us

Hi

No argument there, but this thread has wandered a bit.
If you are depending on the capacitor to provide a specific time constant,
then you will have issues. If the control loop is not impacted by the
changes, then they will track out. Often it's not quite an either / or, but
a some of this and some of that.

In any case the noise created by the leakage current in an electrolytic will
be an issue outside the loop bandwidth and only will be reduced by the
available gain...

Bob

***

On Behalf Of Chris Albertson


Hi

Using electrolytic caps in timing applications is a bit exciting. Their
leakage current changes each time you change the voltage on them. It's
enough of a change to significantly impact long time constants. In some
cases the capacitance changes with voltage as well..



In general you are right.  But in this case the electrolytic cap is inside
a closed loop so as the temperature changes and the voltage in the cap
changes, the loop will correct it, as long the temperature changes slowly
compared to how frequently we measure the phase of the PPS signal.

You could always place the entire system inside box and control it to a
constant temperature.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally ordered one

[John Beale]

On 1/3/2012 8:20 AM, Robert Benward wrote:

I got mine for around $25 in a regular bidding affair. Mine had trouble
locking, It only locked a handful of times, and that took forever, but most
of the time it just sat there and cooked. The seller replaced it and the
new locks up in 2 or 3 minutes. I did not have to ship the old one back.
The Lock output signal doesn't seem to have enough drive to turn on an LED.


One of the three FE-5680A units I got behaved exactly that way. Turns out 
some part of a VCXO circuit had drifted over time (I assume) so the 
free-running frequency never quite reached up to 10.000 MHz enabling lock 
to the signal from the physics package. Assuming you do have a 10 MHz 
output signal, put a counter on it while it is warming up and look at the 
frequency. After I fixed it, the frequency vs time from startup plot looked 
like this:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7E22rkh_YivyesrnTog6atMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

The fix was to take off case top and bottom and tweak the trimmer cap 
marked C217 slightly, it is near Y200 (crystal with round PTC thermistor 
attached). Here's a photo of that part of the board: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/109928236040342205185/FE5680A?authkey=djqVhWs9LkM#5680683008490223330


Of course there may be some completely different problem with your unit, 
but it's something to try, if you want to open it up and play with it.


-John Beale

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Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

[Azelio Boriani]

Oh no, I was speaking always of timing version GPSes. For non timing
version GPSes you loose the position-hold timing mode too. uBlox has T-RAIM
in the LEA6-T version. In the block diagram of uBlox GPSes they show the
option XTAL/TCXO for their receivers. Although not stated, I believe that
the TCXO option is reserved for the timing version hardware.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 6:16 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I believe that more than just TRAIM goes away when you get the "not a T"
> version of the uBlox receivers. You probably should check the jitter on the
> 1 pps output ...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:13 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox
>
> Yes, no TRAIM on the uBlox but I haven't seen the TRAIM alarm kicking in on
> the Motorola/iLotus M12M so I think that for our experiments the uBlox is
> fine. Even better, have the two: the Motorola/iLotus and the uBlox.
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:37 AM, k4...@aol.com  wrote:
>
> >
> > The problem with the U-Blox receiver is that it does not have TRAIM as
> > does the Motorola UT+ and some others that are made specifically for
> timing
> > applications.  Just be aware of that when trying to decide on which
> > receiver to use.  73's Doug, K4CLE
> > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
> >
> > -Original message-
> > From: Azelio Boriani 
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> > time-nuts@febo.com>
> > Sent: Mon, Jan 2, 2012 09:42:54 GMT+00:00
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox
> >
> > I have experience with the LEA5-T in timing mode and, and of course, it
> > works as expected. You can set not only how many samples to take but also
> > the variance to achieve before starting the position-hold/timing mode.
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >
> >  Hi
> >>
> >> I haven't used that particular unit. I have played with similar units.
> >> That's pretty old stuff, and does not appear to have timing software in
> >>
> > it.
> >
> >> I suspect you would do *much* better (both performance and price wise)
> >>
> > with
> >
> >> something newer.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >> On Dec 31, 2011, at 7:41 PM,  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > UBLOX TIM-CJ module TIM-ST GPS engine Jupiter footprint
> >> >
> >> > anyone have any experience with this for timing application?
> >> >
> >> > N0UU
> >> >
> >> > ___
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> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally ordered one

[Peter Gottlieb]

   If you don't want the bad one I would be interested so I could
   disassemble and diagram it out.
   I don't want to do that to a good one.


   On 01/03/12, Robert Benward wrote:

   I got mine for around $25 in a regular bidding affair. Mine had trouble
   locking, It only locked a handful of times, and that took forever, but
   most
   of the time it just sat there and cooked. The seller replaced it and
   the
   new locks up in 2 or 3 minutes. I did not have to ship the old one
   back.
   The Lock output signal doesn't seem to have enough drive to turn on an
   LED.
   Bob
   - Original Message -
   From: "Peter Gottlieb" <[1]n...@verizon.net>
   To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
   <[2]time-nuts@febo.com>
   Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:07 PM
   Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally
   ordered one
   >I grabbed another one for another project. Seller was asking $42.99
   and I
   >offered 38.00. He countered at 39.00 and I accepted. Still a great
   >bargain, it would cost me much more than that to replace the failing
   OCXO
   >it replaces.
   >
   >
   > On 12/28/2011 6:35 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
   >> My 2nd one a make offer, was $38 anything under $40 and I happy.
   >>
   >> It has not arrived yet, suppose to have a OCXO
   >>
   >>
   >> -pete
   >>
   >> On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:31 PM, paul swed<[3]paulsw...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >>> Well been watching the threads on this RB ref and finally ordered
   one.
   >>> Good to see the lower price with shipping.
   >>> It does not come with the OCXO. No loss for me.
   >>> Now lets see if it ever shows up?
   >>> Regards
   >>> Paul
   >>> WB8TSL
   >>> ___
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   >>> [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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   >> ___
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   >> To unsubscribe, go to
   >> [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   >> and follow the instructions there.
   >>
   >>
   >> -
   >> No virus found in this message.
   >> Checked by AVG - [8]www.avg.com
   >> Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2109/4117 - Release Date:
   01/01/12
   >>
   >>
   >
   >
   >
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References

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   3. mailto:paulsw...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
   5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   6. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
   7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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   9. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Bob Camp]

Hi

No argument there, but this thread has wandered a bit. 

If you are depending on the capacitor to provide a specific time constant,
then you will have issues. If the control loop is not impacted by the
changes, then they will track out. Often it's not quite an either / or, but
a some of this and some of that.

In any case the noise created by the leakage current in an electrolytic will
be an issue outside the loop bandwidth and only will be reduced by the
available gain...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 12:35 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Using electrolytic caps in timing applications is a bit exciting. Their
> leakage current changes each time you change the voltage on them. It's
> enough of a change to significantly impact long time constants. In some
> cases the capacitance changes with voltage as well..
>

In general you are right.  But in this case the electrolytic cap is inside
a closed loop so as the temperature changes and the voltage in the cap
changes, the loop will correct it, as long the temperature changes slowly
compared to how frequently we measure the phase of the PPS signal.


You could always place the entire system inside box and control it to a
constant temperature.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Using electrolytic caps in timing applications is a bit exciting. Their
> leakage current changes each time you change the voltage on them. It's
> enough of a change to significantly impact long time constants. In some
> cases the capacitance changes with voltage as well..
>

In general you are right.  But in this case the electrolytic cap is inside
a closed loop so as the temperature changes and the voltage in the cap
changes, the loop will correct it, as long the temperature changes slowly
compared to how frequently we measure the phase of the PPS signal.


You could always place the entire system inside box and control it to a
constant temperature.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] How to read Isotemp OXCO131 part numbers?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

More or less:

1) Customer request comes in
2) Custom part number is assigned
3) Prototype ships
4) Customer is tied to custom number

This accomplishes a couple of things. It eliminates transcription orders (or
at least makes them more obvious). It also can lock out competition and
reverse engineering of the end product. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 2:36 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How to read Isotemp OXCO131 part numbers?

In message

, Chris Albertson writes:

>Anyone know how to read Isotemp OXCO131 part numbers?

The suffix is a design number, and you cannot infer any specification
from it, not even age, since some designs were produced over a long
period of time.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I believe that more than just TRAIM goes away when you get the "not a T"
version of the uBlox receivers. You probably should check the jitter on the
1 pps output ...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Azelio Boriani
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 5:13 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

Yes, no TRAIM on the uBlox but I haven't seen the TRAIM alarm kicking in on
the Motorola/iLotus M12M so I think that for our experiments the uBlox is
fine. Even better, have the two: the Motorola/iLotus and the uBlox.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:37 AM, k4...@aol.com  wrote:

>
> The problem with the U-Blox receiver is that it does not have TRAIM as
> does the Motorola UT+ and some others that are made specifically for
timing
> applications.  Just be aware of that when trying to decide on which
> receiver to use.  73's Doug, K4CLE
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
> -Original message-
> From: Azelio Boriani 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 2, 2012 09:42:54 GMT+00:00
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox
>
> I have experience with the LEA5-T in timing mode and, and of course, it
> works as expected. You can set not only how many samples to take but also
> the variance to achieve before starting the position-hold/timing mode.
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
>  Hi
>>
>> I haven't used that particular unit. I have played with similar units.
>> That's pretty old stuff, and does not appear to have timing software in
>>
> it.
>
>> I suspect you would do *much* better (both performance and price wise)
>>
> with
>
>> something newer.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2011, at 7:41 PM,  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > UBLOX TIM-CJ module TIM-ST GPS engine Jupiter footprint
>> >
>> > anyone have any experience with this for timing application?
>> >
>> > N0UU
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>  ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.) >> capacitors

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Using electrolytic caps in timing applications is a bit exciting. Their
leakage current changes each time you change the voltage on them. It's
enough of a change to significantly impact long time constants. In some
cases the capacitance changes with voltage as well. 

Temperature stability of capacitance for most processes is in the 10 to 20%
change over 0 to 50C.  Leakage at least doubles every 10C. 

Many ceramic bypass caps have similar TC and change in cap with voltage
issues. NPO ceramics or *good* film capacitors are the stuff you make your
analog computer out of. (Yes, I'm old enough that you had to check the
course description to see if the "computer" course was analog or digital...)

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Hal Murray
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 8:15 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.)


> Time constant is just R*C.  If you have a 1000uF cap and a 1K resistor you
> have 1 second.  In theory you could build 100s just by using a 100K
resistor
> but I think real world components are not perfect enough. 

Does anybody know anything about the temperature coefficients of large caps?

I found data for ceramic caps, but when I added "electrolytic" all I got was

lifetime stuff rather than capacitance change with temperature.

I'm not interested in the frequency shift of the filter as the temperature 
but the voltage shift due to a fixed charge as the capacitance changes.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally ordered one

[Robert Benward]

I got mine for around $25 in a regular bidding affair.  Mine had trouble 
locking, It only locked a handful of times, and that took forever, but most 
of the time it just sat there and cooked.  The seller replaced it and the 
new locks up in 2 or 3 minutes.  I did not have to ship the old one back. 
The Lock output signal doesn't seem to have enough drive to turn on an LED.


Bob


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Gottlieb" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE 5680a 3pay 36.89 includes shipping. Finally 
ordered one



I grabbed another one for another project.  Seller was asking $42.99 and I 
offered 38.00.  He countered at 39.00 and I accepted.  Still a great 
bargain, it would cost me much more than that to replace the failing OCXO 
it replaces.



On 12/28/2011 6:35 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

My 2nd one a make offer, was $38 anything under $40 and I happy.

It has not arrived yet, suppose to have a OCXO


-pete

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:31 PM, paul swed  wrote:

Well been watching the threads on this RB ref and finally ordered one.
Good to see the lower price with shipping.
It does not come with the OCXO. No loss for me.
Now lets see if it ever shows up?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2109/4117 - Release Date: 01/01/12









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[time-nuts] seek info 'DSP technology' and other modules

[Luis Cupido]

Hope you all had a great entering in 2012.

Googling around I could not find any tech info on any of the
"transiac" or "DSP technology" modules
(I could find only many surplus sales...)
these are late eighties camac modules... I have no clue
if the companies exist or changed names or extinct etc.

Any a light on the subject ?
(or has catalogs/manuals of such)
tks.

Luis Cupido.
ct1dmk

p.s. Also for "Kinetic Systems" and "LeCroy" it seems hard too
but I could find some stuff, but even so not what I wanted :-(

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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt? (re simple gpsdo.)

[Charles P. Steinmetz]

Hal wrote:


Does anybody know anything about the temperature coefficients of large caps?

I'm not interested in the frequency shift of the filter as the temperature
but the voltage shift due to a fixed charge as the capacitance changes.


The common rule of thumb is "thousands of ppm per 
degree C" through their normal operating range 
(i.e., neglecting low temperatures where they are much worse).


Here is what Cornell-Dubilier says about the 
temperature coefficient of capacitance of aluminum electrolytics :



The capacitance varies with temperature. This variation itself is
dependent to a small extent on the rated voltage and capacitor
size. Capacitance increases less than 5% from 25 ºC to the high
temperature limit. For devices rated –40 ºC capacitance declines
up to 20% at –40 ºC for low-voltage units and up to 40% for high
voltage units. Most of the decline is between –20 ºC and –40 ºC.
For devices rated –55 ºC capacitance typically declines less than
10% at –40 ºC and less than 20% at –55 ºC.


(see 
 
at p. 7)


5% is 50k ppm; an 85C cap would thus change 50k 
ppm over 60 degrees C, or a bit less than 1k ppm 
per degree C.  Based on the timing circuits I've 
seen implemented with aluminum electrolytics, I'd 
say CDE is being optimistic here.


For integrating in an environment where stability 
of parts in 10e10 or better is desired, you are 
likely to find that all of the other 
imperfections of electrolytic capacitors 
(leakage, noise, dielectric absorption, etc.) 
will stop you well short of the goal, never mind 
the tempco of capacitance.  You might get by with wet-slug tantalums.


Best regards,

Charles






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Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox

[Azelio Boriani]

Yes, no TRAIM on the uBlox but I haven't seen the TRAIM alarm kicking in on
the Motorola/iLotus M12M so I think that for our experiments the uBlox is
fine. Even better, have the two: the Motorola/iLotus and the uBlox.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:37 AM, k4...@aol.com  wrote:

>
> The problem with the U-Blox receiver is that it does not have TRAIM as
> does the Motorola UT+ and some others that are made specifically for timing
> applications.  Just be aware of that when trying to decide on which
> receiver to use.  73's Doug, K4CLE
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
> -Original message-
> From: Azelio Boriani 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 2, 2012 09:42:54 GMT+00:00
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay Ublox
>
> I have experience with the LEA5-T in timing mode and, and of course, it
> works as expected. You can set not only how many samples to take but also
> the variance to achieve before starting the position-hold/timing mode.
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>
>  Hi
>>
>> I haven't used that particular unit. I have played with similar units.
>> That's pretty old stuff, and does not appear to have timing software in
>>
> it.
>
>> I suspect you would do *much* better (both performance and price wise)
>>
> with
>
>> something newer.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2011, at 7:41 PM,  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > UBLOX TIM-CJ module TIM-ST GPS engine Jupiter footprint
>> >
>> > anyone have any experience with this for timing application?
>> >
>> > N0UU
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>  ___
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