Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[Azelio Boriani]

I think the only solution is to put the correction value in by hand.

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:45 AM, k4...@aol.com  wrote:

> Mike,
> The problem with your solution is that the receiver can get an error in
> calculating the year value and if it writes a number greater than it
> actually is into eeprom, the next time it powers on it will be forced to go
> forward 19 years in time.  And since it is not allowed to go backwards in
> time, it will always have the wrong date.  I have worked with many software
> engineers doing GPS receiver design, believe me, there is no fool proof
> solution to this.
> Doug, K4CLE
>
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
>
> -Original message-
> From: Mike S 
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Sent: Fri, Jun 8, 2012 00:51:21 GMT+00:00
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover
>
> On 6/7/2012 8:02 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> One could put in a routine that looks at the date the software was
>> written and "fix" any date that shows up as being in the past.
>>
>
> After all the issues seen after the last rollover, I'd think
> receiverswould have been made robust against this.
>
> One obvious method would be to keep a checkpoint date (or 1024 weekcycle #
> + week offset) in EEPROM. To avoid issues with using up EEPROMr/w cycles,
> only update it anytime the currently received date is morethan a year
> beyond the currently stored date.
>
>
> __**_
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrino Velocity

[Javier Serrano]

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Marvin Marshak  wrote:
> Good morning from Japan,
>
> The Neutrino 2012 Conference is being held in Kyoto, Japan, this week. This 
> morning's session is scheduled for 3 talks on neutrino velocity--one from the 
> OPERA Experiment that initially reported the anomalous effect, one discussing 
> other experiments at the Italian Gran Sasso Lab and a third talk from the 
> MINOS Experiment (Fermilab to Soudan MN). The session will begin at 0915 
> Japan time.
>

Hi Marvin,

Someone told me the LNGS experiments reported just preliminary results
(some more fine-tuning of calibrations needed) with central values of
Dt ranging from 2 to 6 ns with statistical errors around 1 ns and
systematics ranging from 3 to 6 ns (positive Dt means nu slower than
light). Apparently MINOS  presented only a reanalysis of the data
accumulated from 2005 with Dt around -11 ns and a systematic error of
the order of 15 ns. The analysis of more recent data collected after
installation of the new timing system will probably be available
after the Summer. Is this correct?

BTW, we installed White Rabbit links redundantly to the existing LNGS
and CERN timing systems for the two weeks of special beam
(100ns-spaced 2ns-wide bunches). It was quite a rush so it is not
fully documented. All the data we gathered can be seen at
https://project-lngstt.web.cern.ch/project-lngstt/ (although it is
quite useless without explanations of what the data actually mean).
The important bit is that WR agreed with the legacy systems at least
at CERN, OPERA and Icarus. Borexino and LVD have not checked yet
against WR, but should do so in the near future.

So in terms of redundancy we have:
- Four different experiments in LNGS basically agreeing on the value
of the neutrino speed, compatible with c.
- Two different timing technologies (for internal lab distribution)
agreeing at CERN and two different timing technologies agreeing in
LNGS.
- Two different GPS time transfer systems using two different software
analysis tools agreeing with each other.

The only bit of redundancy I see missing is in certain parts of CERN,
like the length of the cable from the Beam Current Transformer to the
digitizer, which is common mode to everybody. The MINOS data, when it
becomes available should provide more reassurance on those last bits.

Cheers,

Javier

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[time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Raj]

I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
 From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf

Cheers

-- 
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.  


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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Azelio Boriani]

I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time to
translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can wait I can
prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:

>
> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
>
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Raj, VU2ZAP
> Bangalore, India.
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

[Rob Kimberley]

When is the next one Alan? I've tried looking on the NPL site but nothing
showing. I've missed some recent ones due to some health issues.

Rob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Melia
Sent: 06 June 2012 23:45
To: Tom Van Baak; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

Then there is the NPL Time & Frequency Club at Teddington..oh sorry that
is the wrong side of the Atlantic :-))

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder


> Tom,
>
> Agreed. We've given this some thought and I've polled people in the past. 
> The issue is usually location and budgets so nothing has ever happened. 
> Note that besides the NIST conference there are several other venues where

> time nuts are frequently spotted:
> - Dayton hamvention (I've never been, but I know many others have).
> - PTTI (I try to go every year).
> - FCS, ION GPS, NAWCC (I attend if they're close enough).
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom Knox" 
> To: "Time-Nuts" 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 9:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder
>
>
>>
>> After following posts for a number of years I have learned the Time-Nuts 
>> community are not only a good source of knowledge but more important a 
>> great group of people. But even knowing that I am a bit overwhelmed after

>> personally meeting several Time Nuts.  Of coure this is common knowledge 
>> to may of you long time members. That said the chance to get to know 
>> Magnus, David, John, and locals Hank and Skip has left me thinking.
>> In my humble opinion it would be great to put together an annual 
>> gathering of the Time and Freq Community, perhaps in conjunction with 
>> NIST's annual Seminar. If the time I have spent with Magnus and the other

>> visiting Time-Nuts is any indication I  think a Time-Nuts gathering would

>> quickly develop into the must attend event for people serious about time 
>> but the fantastic people researching it. I see this evolving not only a 
>> social gathering, but also a place for professions and amateurs to could 
>> showcase ideas and products.
>> Best Wishes;
>>
>> Thomas Knox
>
>
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrino Velocity

[Marvin Marshak]

Javier,

What you describe in your email is basically correct. You can see the slides 
from the three talks
via the website:

http://neu2012.kek.jp/

Choose the Indico link at the very bottom of the page. Then, you need to login 
with a username and password, but they
are both given to you in the same box that asks for them.

Please let me know if you have problems accessing the slides.

I have learned a lot about timing since the OPERA result was first announced. 
However, it is quite clear than special
relativity is intact, although I expect that several experiments will now 
continue to push the systematic errors down to the
~1 ns level.

Best regards,

Marvin

On Jun 8, 2012, at 2:49 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Marvin Marshak  wrote:
>> Good morning from Japan,
>> 
>> The Neutrino 2012 Conference is being held in Kyoto, Japan, this week. This 
>> morning's session is scheduled for 3 talks on neutrino velocity--one from 
>> the OPERA Experiment that initially reported the anomalous effect, one 
>> discussing other experiments at the Italian Gran Sasso Lab and a third talk 
>> from the MINOS Experiment (Fermilab to Soudan MN). The session will begin at 
>> 0915 Japan time.
>> 
> 
> Hi Marvin,
> 
> Someone told me the LNGS experiments reported just preliminary results
> (some more fine-tuning of calibrations needed) with central values of
> Dt ranging from 2 to 6 ns with statistical errors around 1 ns and
> systematics ranging from 3 to 6 ns (positive Dt means nu slower than
> light). Apparently MINOS  presented only a reanalysis of the data
> accumulated from 2005 with Dt around -11 ns and a systematic error of
> the order of 15 ns. The analysis of more recent data collected after
> installation of the new timing system will probably be available
> after the Summer. Is this correct?
> 
> BTW, we installed White Rabbit links redundantly to the existing LNGS
> and CERN timing systems for the two weeks of special beam
> (100ns-spaced 2ns-wide bunches). It was quite a rush so it is not
> fully documented. All the data we gathered can be seen at
> https://project-lngstt.web.cern.ch/project-lngstt/ (although it is
> quite useless without explanations of what the data actually mean).
> The important bit is that WR agreed with the legacy systems at least
> at CERN, OPERA and Icarus. Borexino and LVD have not checked yet
> against WR, but should do so in the near future.
> 
> So in terms of redundancy we have:
> - Four different experiments in LNGS basically agreeing on the value
> of the neutrino speed, compatible with c.
> - Two different timing technologies (for internal lab distribution)
> agreeing at CERN and two different timing technologies agreeing in
> LNGS.
> - Two different GPS time transfer systems using two different software
> analysis tools agreeing with each other.
> 
> The only bit of redundancy I see missing is in certain parts of CERN,
> like the length of the cable from the Beam Current Transformer to the
> digitizer, which is common mode to everybody. The MINOS data, when it
> becomes available should provide more reassurance on those last bits.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Javier
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> and follow the instructions there.

Marvin L. Marshak
College of Science and Engineering Professor
Morse-Alumni Professor
University of Minnesota
116 Church Street SE
Minneapolis MN 55455  612-624-1312 612-624-4578 (fax)





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[time-nuts] Washington DC-area time-nuts

[George Dubovsky]

There is a hamfest in northern Virginia this Sunday:

http://manassashamfest.org/

While it's mostly ham radio junque, because it's in the Washington metro
area, some hi-tech surplus and microwave stuff does show up. I will be
there with a handful of Trimble Thunderbolts and antennas, a nearly-new
Symmetricom GPSDO rubidium, and probably a few ublox 5 modules.

73,

geo - n4ua
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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Raj]

Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought maybe I 
could
try and brew one for my tbolt.

At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
>I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time to
>translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can wait I can
>prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
>
>On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
>
>>
>> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
>>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
>>
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
>>


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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Azelio Boriani]

I have made a QFH but then found a Procomm GPS4 in Germany for a good
price...

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Raj  wrote:

> Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought maybe
> I could
> try and brew one for my tbolt.
>
> At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
> >I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time to
> >translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can wait I
> can
> >prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
> >
> >On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
> >>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
> >>
> >> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
> >>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[shalimr9]

Yes, but you have to do this every 19.2 years and pretty soon it becomes a 
chore...

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...

-Original Message-
From: Azelio Boriani 
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 09:26:12 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

I think the only solution is to put the correction value in by hand.

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:45 AM, k4...@aol.com  wrote:

> Mike,
> The problem with your solution is that the receiver can get an error in
> calculating the year value and if it writes a number greater than it
> actually is into eeprom, the next time it powers on it will be forced to go
> forward 19 years in time.  And since it is not allowed to go backwards in
> time, it will always have the wrong date.  I have worked with many software
> engineers doing GPS receiver design, believe me, there is no fool proof
> solution to this.
> Doug, K4CLE
>
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
>
> -Original message-
> From: Mike S 
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Sent: Fri, Jun 8, 2012 00:51:21 GMT+00:00
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover
>
> On 6/7/2012 8:02 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> One could put in a routine that looks at the date the software was
>> written and "fix" any date that shows up as being in the past.
>>
>
> After all the issues seen after the last rollover, I'd think
> receiverswould have been made robust against this.
>
> One obvious method would be to keep a checkpoint date (or 1024 weekcycle #
> + week offset) in EEPROM. To avoid issues with using up EEPROMr/w cycles,
> only update it anytime the currently received date is morethan a year
> beyond the currently stored date.
>
>
> __**_
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Azelio Boriani]

Meanwhile take a look at these:

http://www.kunstmanen.net/WKfiles/Techdocs/RQHA/RQHA1999-1eng.pdf

http://w2du.com/r2ch22.pdf

http://www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/digitalbeacon/information/Building_QFH_Antenna_Guide.pdf

http://ap-s.ei.tuat.ac.jp/isapx/2006/pdf/1E2a-5.pdf

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> I have made a QFH but then found a Procomm GPS4 in Germany for a good
> price...
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Raj  wrote:
>
>> Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought maybe
>> I could
>> try and brew one for my tbolt.
>>
>> At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
>> >I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time to
>> >translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can wait I
>> can
>> >prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
>> >
>> >On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
>> >>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
>> >>
>> >> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[Michael Baker]

Time-nutters--

The Procom website lists the noise-figure of their quadrifilar
LNA as:

GAIN > 30 dB
NOISE FIGURE < 3 dB (incl. input filter).
Typ. approx. 3 dB


I am a little surprised at this relatively high NF for a
product in this price category.  Even most low-end
mass-produced consumer grade GPS antennas are
spec'd at 1.5 to 2.0 dB NF.

Mike Baker
--


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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

[Alan Melia]

Hi Rob, me too my collegue has had a condition diagnosed which means he 
didn't fancy the trip either so I didn'r attend. I think the last was a 
joint meeting with the location an tracking group,which I was not too 
interested in. In fact I may have dropped off the mail list now.

Hope you are back to good heath again?
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Kimberley" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



When is the next one Alan? I've tried looking on the NPL site but nothing
showing. I've missed some recent ones due to some health issues.

Rob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Melia
Sent: 06 June 2012 23:45
To: Tom Van Baak; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

Then there is the NPL Time & Frequency Club at Teddington..oh sorry 
that

is the wrong side of the Atlantic :-))

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



Tom,

Agreed. We've given this some thought and I've polled people in the past.
The issue is usually location and budgets so nothing has ever happened.
Note that besides the NIST conference there are several other venues 
where



time nuts are frequently spotted:
- Dayton hamvention (I've never been, but I know many others have).
- PTTI (I try to go every year).
- FCS, ION GPS, NAWCC (I attend if they're close enough).

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Knox" 

To: "Time-Nuts" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder




After following posts for a number of years I have learned the Time-Nuts
community are not only a good source of knowledge but more important a
great group of people. But even knowing that I am a bit overwhelmed 
after



personally meeting several Time Nuts.  Of coure this is common knowledge
to may of you long time members. That said the chance to get to know
Magnus, David, John, and locals Hank and Skip has left me thinking.
In my humble opinion it would be great to put together an annual
gathering of the Time and Freq Community, perhaps in conjunction with
NIST's annual Seminar. If the time I have spent with Magnus and the 
other


visiting Time-Nuts is any indication I  think a Time-Nuts gathering 
would



quickly develop into the must attend event for people serious about time
but the fantastic people researching it. I see this evolving not only a
social gathering, but also a place for professions and amateurs to could
showcase ideas and products.
Best Wishes;

Thomas Knox




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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[Mike S]

On 6/7/2012 9:45 PM, k4...@aol.com wrote:

believe me, there is no
fool proof solution to this.


I don't believe you. One need only provide a command to allow manually 
setting the "checkpoint" date.



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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[Jim Lux]

On 6/8/12 5:20 AM, Michael Baker wrote:

Time-nutters--

The Procom website lists the noise-figure of their quadrifilar
LNA as:

GAIN > 30 dB
NOISE FIGURE < 3 dB (incl. input filter).
Typ. approx. 3 dB


I am a little surprised at this relatively high NF for a
product in this price category. Even most low-end
mass-produced consumer grade GPS antennas are
spec'd at 1.5 to 2.0 dB NF.



One thing to check on NF specs is the temperature range over which they 
are valid.  A "consumer" spec might be "at room temperature only", a 
more rigorous spec might be "at -20 to +50C".




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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[Tom Van Baak]

> Mike,
> The problem with your solution is that the receiver can get an error in  
> calculating the year value and if it writes a number greater than it  
> actually is into eeprom, the next time it powers on it will be forced to go  
> forward 19 years in time.  And since it is not allowed to go backwards in  
> time, it will always have the wrong date.  I have worked with many software  
> engineers doing GPS receiver design, believe me, there is no fool proof  
> solution to this.
> Doug, K4CLE

I suspect most GPS receivers know how to calculate the year and
how to reliably write it EEPROM. Nevertheless, there are fool proof
ways to distinguish past, current, and the next few 19.6 year blocks:
www.google.com/patents/US5923618
http://www.leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Boston Area -area time-nuts

[J. Forster]

While on the subject of Fleas, a week fro0m Sunday, June 17th, the monthly
MIT UHF RA flea will be in the Abany Garage at MIT in Cambridge, MA.

Rain or Shine ! There is an open parking lot and a covered garage.

In case you can't make it, it happens every month, May through October, on
the THIRD Sunday of ever month. The public are admitte at 09:00, with
Early Bird admission at 07:00

For more info:

http://www.mitflea.com/

-John

===


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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[paul swed]

Good reads.
Thanks Raj
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> Meanwhile take a look at these:
>
> http://www.kunstmanen.net/WKfiles/Techdocs/RQHA/RQHA1999-1eng.pdf
>
> http://w2du.com/r2ch22.pdf
>
>
> http://www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/digitalbeacon/information/Building_QFH_Antenna_Guide.pdf
>
> http://ap-s.ei.tuat.ac.jp/isapx/2006/pdf/1E2a-5.pdf
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Azelio Boriani  >wrote:
>
> > I have made a QFH but then found a Procomm GPS4 in Germany for a good
> > price...
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Raj  wrote:
> >
> >> Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought
> maybe
> >> I could
> >> try and brew one for my tbolt.
> >>
> >> At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
> >> >I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time
> to
> >> >translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can wait I
> >> can
> >> >prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
> >> >
> >> >On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
> >> >>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
> >> >>
> >> >> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Boston Area -area time-nuts

[paul swed]

Should be there.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 9:51 AM, J. Forster  wrote:

> While on the subject of Fleas, a week fro0m Sunday, June 17th, the monthly
> MIT UHF RA flea will be in the Abany Garage at MIT in Cambridge, MA.
>
> Rain or Shine ! There is an open parking lot and a covered garage.
>
> In case you can't make it, it happens every month, May through October, on
> the THIRD Sunday of ever month. The public are admitte at 09:00, with
> Early Bird admission at 07:00
>
> For more info:
>
> http://www.mitflea.com/
>
> -John
>
> ===
>
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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[time-nuts] WWVB PSK testing update

[paul swed]

To update the group.
Been working on this for a while. Thanks to Jfor John for comments.
Since I am in the Boston area always a bit of a challenge for wwvb and now
the psk change to the modulation.

Lots of experiments with simply doubling and then dividing by 2 approaches
to removing the psk.
Some approaches adding gain then full wave rectify, analog multipliers,
Exclusive Or gate doublers, injection locked and Ringing oscillators, PLL,
adaptive slicing etc. The signals only about 6 uv during the day here so
the 1s were stable but the 0s 17 db down were simply sort of noise. It
really hit me a week ago. The 2' loop just wasn't cutting the mustard.
Now have a 10' square loop and new preamp. That brings the daytime signal
to 60 + uv while driving 140' of coax and for the first time I can actually
see and trigger on the 0 reliably.

So its been interesting during this test that is running. By using a soft
clipper to eliminate the 17 db modulation difference. Then slicing and
converting to a cmos logic level signal; and differentiating on both sides
adding together and dividing by 2. A HP VLF117 seems to track the signal. A
Fluke 207 does not. Though interestingly what it does is consistently ramp
in 1 direction. Looks like a saw tooth.
But its not at all perfect or even close.
Lightning and noise cause the divide by 2 flip flop to shift 180 degrees
randomly. Its interesting that there is enough noise that the VLF 117s
integration time constant creates a noisely line, but does track the
correct phase as compared to a pretty clean line without PSK.

So all of this is not the answer yet and will keep digging.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[steve heidmann]

Is it worth driving from Thousand Oaks to Altadena for  Snowcones  (qty 5) 
tomorrow ?

--- On Fri, 6/8/12, Jim Lux  wrote:


From: Jim Lux 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Friday, June 8, 2012, 6:23 AM


On 6/8/12 5:20 AM, Michael Baker wrote:
> Time-nutters--
>
> The Procom website lists the noise-figure of their quadrifilar
> LNA as:
>
> GAIN > 30 dB
> NOISE FIGURE < 3 dB (incl. input filter).
> Typ. approx. 3 dB
> 
>
> I am a little surprised at this relatively high NF for a
> product in this price category. Even most low-end
> mass-produced consumer grade GPS antennas are
> spec'd at 1.5 to 2.0 dB NF.
>

One thing to check on NF specs is the temperature range over which they 
are valid.  A "consumer" spec might be "at room temperature only", a 
more rigorous spec might be "at -20 to +50C".



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[time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Joseph Gray]

Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
same source.

For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.

I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.

Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".

I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
purchased before.

I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.

Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[Jim Lux]

On 6/8/12 9:21 AM, steve heidmann wrote:

Is it worth driving from Thousand Oaks to Altadena for  Snowcones  (qty 5) 
tomorrow ?

--- On Fri, 6/8/12, Jim Lux  wrote:



http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/events/open-house.cfm

Well.. they've got all the stuff setup for JPL open house.. Is it worth 
an hour's drive?


The weather is nice.  There's lots of MSL related stuff out. If you have 
little kids, there's the usual "drive a rover over a row of children" 
thing.


I don't know if the totally cool Athlete rovers will be out.  Hopefully 
yes.  The Mars Yard is always fun, and they'll have something out 
crawling around.


http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=922



Will there be tours of the frequency and timing lab? (which would be of 
particular interest to time-nuts).. nope..  But, if you're in the area 
some other time, send me a note, and I'll see what I can do.  Down in my 
lab, we don't have anything nearly as good as what they've got up there. 
 (but they send me their maser derived reference on a fiber optic pipe...)









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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Azelio Boriani]

OK here a summary of the IV3QBN article (original in Italian) on QFH:



This article suggests that instead of buying one, you can make your GPS
antenna. After two
antenna examples (fig.1 an Amsat plane spiral antenna and fig.2 a 9GHz
array of patches)
the author suggests to use a backfire quadrifilar helix, directly fed by a
50OHM coax cable.
The helix is only half a turn, but the pitch is much greater than the
classic helix.
The result can be seen in fig.3 and 4. The turn diameter must be an integer
fraction of the
lambda, as suggested by Kilgus [C. Kilgus: Resonant Quadrifilar Helix-IEEE
Transactions on
Antenna and Propagation. Vol AP-17, May 1969] and the length of the turn
must be 0.28 times
the lambda. To compensate for the reactive part of the antenna impedance,
the trick is to
make the wire pairs one longer and one shorter than the computed length so
that one is
seen as capacitive and the other inductive compensating each other. The 4
wires are soldered
on the outer conductor of the coax cable (bottom of the helix, GND) and on
top of the cable
two wires (one from each pair) on the center conductor and the other two on
the outer
conductor. This way the helix will radiate/receive from the top and the
gain will be
maximum in the 40degrees direction (radiation pattern in fig.3). You need a
piece of UT141
coax cable and 4 enamelled copper wires 1.5 upto 1.8mm in diameter. The
longer pair is
103mm in length and the shorter is 99mm, the diameter of the helix will be
30mm. See fig.5
for a detail of the helix. At the bottom the distance between the two pairs
is 5mm and the
length is 69mm (the shorter) and 73mm (the longer). In fig.6 you can see
how to solder the
top of the cable [but the detail is not so clear, IMHO]. The length [69 and
73? He doesn't
say explicitly] can be adjusted to trim the return loss but a network
analyzer or a sweep
is needed to check the result. The antenna is wound anticlockwise as seen
from the top. In
fig.4 you can see the HP8714ES analyzer result for the antenna [that the
author claims to
have seen after the first try, without adjusting anything]. To use this
antenna directly,
don't forget to put a DC blocking capacitor in order not to short the
antenna supply from
the GPS receiver or use a MMIC (MAR3, INA,ERA, MSA) [and a filter would be
best] to have
an active antenna.




On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 4:05 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> Good reads.
> Thanks Raj
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Azelio Boriani  >wrote:
>
> > Meanwhile take a look at these:
> >
> > http://www.kunstmanen.net/WKfiles/Techdocs/RQHA/RQHA1999-1eng.pdf
> >
> > http://w2du.com/r2ch22.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/digitalbeacon/information/Building_QFH_Antenna_Guide.pdf
> >
> > http://ap-s.ei.tuat.ac.jp/isapx/2006/pdf/1E2a-5.pdf
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Azelio Boriani  > >wrote:
> >
> > > I have made a QFH but then found a Procomm GPS4 in Germany for a good
> > > price...
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Raj  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought
> > maybe
> > >> I could
> > >> try and brew one for my tbolt.
> > >>
> > >> At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
> > >> >I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need time
> > to
> > >> >translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can
> wait I
> > >> can
> > >> >prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
> > >> >
> > >> >On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
> > >> >>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
> > >> >>
> > >> >> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[steve heidmann]

 
That would be great. Softball tournament on Saturday in Newbury Park , JPL 
openhouse Sunday. 


--- On Fri, 6/8/12, Jim Lux  wrote:


From: Jim Lux 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Date: Friday, June 8, 2012, 1:26 PM


On 6/8/12 9:21 AM, steve heidmann wrote:
> Is it worth driving from Thousand Oaks to Altadena for  Snowcones  (qty 5) 
> tomorrow ?
> 
> --- On Fri, 6/8/12, Jim Lux  wrote:
> 

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/events/open-house.cfm

Well.. they've got all the stuff setup for JPL open house.. Is it worth an 
hour's drive?

The weather is nice.  There's lots of MSL related stuff out. If you have little 
kids, there's the usual "drive a rover over a row of children" thing.

I don't know if the totally cool Athlete rovers will be out.  Hopefully yes.  
The Mars Yard is always fun, and they'll have something out crawling around.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=922



Will there be tours of the frequency and timing lab? (which would be of 
particular interest to time-nuts).. nope..  But, if you're in the area some 
other time, send me a note, and I'll see what I can do.  Down in my lab, we 
don't have anything nearly as good as what they've got up there.  (but they 
send me their maser derived reference on a fiber optic pipe...)








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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Joseph Gray]

Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a
PPS on pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
> use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
> same source.
>
> For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
> module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
> the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
> gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.
>
> I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
> of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
> puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.
>
> Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
> has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
> smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
> is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
> UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".
>
> I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
> pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
> purchased before.
>
> I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

There is a variant that comes from the factory with no 10 MHz output at all. 
Industrious people in far away places drill holes and wire up SMA connectors to 
give them a 10 MHz output. If yours is one of those, the mod may not have been 
100% effective. Maybe a loose wire ….

Bob

On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

> Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a
> PPS on pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.
> 
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> 
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
>> Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
>> use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
>> same source.
>> 
>> For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
>> module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
>> the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
>> gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.
>> 
>> I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
>> of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
>> puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.
>> 
>> Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
>> has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
>> smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
>> is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
>> UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".
>> 
>> I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
>> pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
>> purchased before.
>> 
>> I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.
>> 
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Procom GPS4 quadrifilar antenna...

[David Kirkby]

On 8 June 2012 13:20, Michael Baker  wrote:
> Time-nutters--
>
> The Procom website lists the noise-figure of their quadrifilar
> LNA as:
>
> GAIN > 30 dB
> NOISE FIGURE < 3 dB (incl. input filter).
> Typ. approx. 3 dB
> 
>
> I am a little surprised at this relatively high NF for a
> product in this price category.  Even most low-end
> mass-produced consumer grade GPS antennas are
> spec'd at 1.5 to 2.0 dB NF.
>
> Mike Baker

I know at least in antennas, consumer and at low/mid end professional
products rarely meet their specs.Even SWR, which is fairly easy to
measure is often not met on antnenas. Gain is never measured  - the
figures are just made up.  It seems everyone lies, and needs to lie to
remain in business. Just look on eBay and see some of the redicusly
high gains for some antennas, where the sellers has a feedback of
1 and 99.9% positive. Of course, for radio hams, dramatic lies
about the SWR would be detected, but gain figures are unlikely to be
challenged.

That said, I don't undeerstand how something can have a spec of < 3dB
NF, then have a typical noise figure of approximately 3 dB. But I bet
a lot of manufactures of GPS antennas have the NF of their device
being that of the amplifier chip they use, and all losses, like those
of filtering, are ignored.

Dave

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[time-nuts] LPFRS disciplining: first result

[Azelio Boriani]

At last, I'm running my first Rb disciplining algorithm. Using the
time-to-digital posted time ago, I get the difference from the M12M PPS and
the Rb 10MHz divided down PPS. The difference (that is phase) is read every
second, is sawtooth corrected, is accumulated for 100 seconds. The
difference of this difference (that is frequency) is also accumulated but
for 1000 seconds. At the end of 1000 seconds the accumulated value is
applied to the DAC as an integral action (DACIntegralnew=
DACIntegralprev+Freq1000*Ki) and the accumulated phase is applied as a
proportional action (DAC= DACIntegralnew+Phase100*Kp). Now the resulting Rb
PPS is in a 25nS window compared with the Z3815A (using an oscilloscope
with the infinite persistence, last 3 hours after 22 hours running).
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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Joseph Gray]

This one has no SMA and hasn't been modded in any way that I can tell.
It came on a cutoff circuit board, like the others.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> There is a variant that comes from the factory with no 10 MHz output at all. 
> Industrious people in far away places drill holes and wire up SMA connectors 
> to give them a 10 MHz output. If yours is one of those, the mod may not have 
> been 100% effective. Maybe a loose wire ….
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>
>> Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a
>> PPS on pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.
>>
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
>>> Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
>>> use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
>>> same source.
>>>
>>> For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
>>> module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
>>> the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
>>> gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.
>>>
>>> I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
>>> of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
>>> puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.
>>>
>>> Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
>>> has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
>>> smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
>>> is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
>>> UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".
>>>
>>> I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
>>> pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
>>> purchased before.
>>>
>>> I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.
>>>
>>> Joe Gray
>>> W5JG
>>
>> ___
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>
>
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>

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Re: [time-nuts] Quadrifilar Helix Antenna

[Azelio Boriani]

Here the antenna top detail is very very clear (fig.2) on page 2:

http://ap-s.ei.tuat.ac.jp/isapx/2009/pdf/1149.pdf



On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:29 PM, Azelio Boriani wrote:

> OK here a summary of the IV3QBN article (original in Italian) on QFH:
>
>
>
> This article suggests that instead of buying one, you can make your GPS
> antenna. After two
> antenna examples (fig.1 an Amsat plane spiral antenna and fig.2 a 9GHz
> array of patches)
> the author suggests to use a backfire quadrifilar helix, directly fed by a
> 50OHM coax cable.
> The helix is only half a turn, but the pitch is much greater than the
> classic helix.
> The result can be seen in fig.3 and 4. The turn diameter must be an
> integer fraction of the
> lambda, as suggested by Kilgus [C. Kilgus: Resonant Quadrifilar Helix-IEEE
> Transactions on
> Antenna and Propagation. Vol AP-17, May 1969] and the length of the turn
> must be 0.28 times
> the lambda. To compensate for the reactive part of the antenna impedance,
> the trick is to
> make the wire pairs one longer and one shorter than the computed length so
> that one is
> seen as capacitive and the other inductive compensating each other. The 4
> wires are soldered
> on the outer conductor of the coax cable (bottom of the helix, GND) and on
> top of the cable
> two wires (one from each pair) on the center conductor and the other two
> on the outer
> conductor. This way the helix will radiate/receive from the top and the
> gain will be
> maximum in the 40degrees direction (radiation pattern in fig.3). You need
> a piece of UT141
> coax cable and 4 enamelled copper wires 1.5 upto 1.8mm in diameter. The
> longer pair is
> 103mm in length and the shorter is 99mm, the diameter of the helix will be
> 30mm. See fig.5
> for a detail of the helix. At the bottom the distance between the two
> pairs is 5mm and the
> length is 69mm (the shorter) and 73mm (the longer). In fig.6 you can see
> how to solder the
> top of the cable [but the detail is not so clear, IMHO]. The length [69
> and 73? He doesn't
> say explicitly] can be adjusted to trim the return loss but a network
> analyzer or a sweep
> is needed to check the result. The antenna is wound anticlockwise as seen
> from the top. In
> fig.4 you can see the HP8714ES analyzer result for the antenna [that the
> author claims to
> have seen after the first try, without adjusting anything]. To use this
> antenna directly,
> don't forget to put a DC blocking capacitor in order not to short the
> antenna supply from
> the GPS receiver or use a MMIC (MAR3, INA,ERA, MSA) [and a filter would be
> best] to have
> an active antenna.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 4:05 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>
>> Good reads.
>> Thanks Raj
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Azelio Boriani > >wrote:
>>
>> > Meanwhile take a look at these:
>> >
>> > http://www.kunstmanen.net/WKfiles/Techdocs/RQHA/RQHA1999-1eng.pdf
>> >
>> > http://w2du.com/r2ch22.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/digitalbeacon/information/Building_QFH_Antenna_Guide.pdf
>> >
>> > http://ap-s.ei.tuat.ac.jp/isapx/2006/pdf/1E2a-5.pdf
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Azelio Boriani <
>> azelio.bori...@screen.it
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have made a QFH but then found a Procomm GPS4 in Germany for a good
>> > > price...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Raj  wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Not to worry Azelio, if you could tell us the gist of it. I thought
>> > maybe
>> > >> I could
>> > >> try and brew one for my tbolt.
>> > >>
>> > >> At 08-06-2012, you wrote:
>> > >> >I have tried to translate with Google (yes, I'm Italian but need
>> time
>> > to
>> > >> >translate the whole PDF) but the result is very poor. If you can
>> wait I
>> > >> can
>> > >> >prepare a short summary or a complete traslation (more time).
>> > >> >
>> > >> >On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Raj  wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I came across this article. I dont understand Italian!
>> > >> >>  From RadioKit Elettronica 2003-03
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10377704/IV3QBN%20QuadHelix.pdf
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ___
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>> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
>> > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > >> and follow the instructions there.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Bob Camp]

HI

I suspect it's the same part then. I doubt they were using two vastly different 
Rb's on the same card.

Bob

On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

> This one has no SMA and hasn't been modded in any way that I can tell.
> It came on a cutoff circuit board, like the others.
> 
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> 
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> There is a variant that comes from the factory with no 10 MHz output at all. 
>> Industrious people in far away places drill holes and wire up SMA connectors 
>> to give them a 10 MHz output. If yours is one of those, the mod may not have 
>> been 100% effective. Maybe a loose wire ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>> 
>>> Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a
>>> PPS on pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.
>>> 
>>> Joe Gray
>>> W5JG
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
 Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
 use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
 same source.
 
 For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
 module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
 the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
 gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.
 
 I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
 of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
 puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.
 
 Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
 has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
 smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
 is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
 UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".
 
 I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
 pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
 purchased before.
 
 I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.
 
 Joe Gray
 W5JG
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[k4...@aol.com]

Keep in mind that a vast majority of these devices are used in "unmanned"  
installations, i.e., cellular base stations, etc.


Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-Original message-
From: Mike S 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  


Sent: Fri, Jun 8, 2012 12:43:21 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

On 6/7/2012 9:45 PM, k4...@aol.com wrote:

believe me, there is no
fool proof solution to this.


I don't believe you. One need only provide a command to allow manually 
setting the "checkpoint" date.



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[time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Arthur Dent]

I just got an DOXCO made by Frequency Electronics, Inc., so the first thing 
I did was remove the screws from the outer cover to open it up and check 
out the insides. Once I removed the foam so I could see the oven, I had the 
feeling of deja vu. but I'd never owned one of these units before. I realized 
that it was exactly the same as the oven inside a Morion MV89A that I've 
seen on this list and where FEI apparently owns Morion it wasn't too much 
of a surprise. The OXCO part number is FE-489A which is pretty close 
to the Morion MV89A part number as well. Attached is a photo of the FE 
on the left and the photo of the Morion from this list on the right.  

http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/FE-489A89A1024.jpg

Here is a view of the entire board which has a DB-9 connector to connect 
to the outside world. In the foreground is the output which converts the 5Mhz 
output of the oscillator to 15Mhz that goes to the SMA connector. The size 
of this OXCO is exactly the same as the 5650A rubidium oscillator by FEI. 
Adjustment may be digital and/or analog.
.   
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/FE-489A606-1.jpg

-Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I do not believe FE owns Morion. The most certainly own space in the Morion 
factory. Last time I was there I saw the space.

Bob

On Jun 8, 2012, at 9:00 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:

> I just got an DOXCO made by Frequency Electronics, Inc., so the first thing 
> I did was remove the screws from the outer cover to open it up and check 
> out the insides. Once I removed the foam so I could see the oven, I had the 
> feeling of deja vu. but I'd never owned one of these units before. I realized 
> that it was exactly the same as the oven inside a Morion MV89A that I've 
> seen on this list and where FEI apparently owns Morion it wasn't too much 
> of a surprise. The OXCO part number is FE-489A which is pretty close 
> to the Morion MV89A part number as well. Attached is a photo of the FE 
> on the left and the photo of the Morion from this list on the right.  
> 
> http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/FE-489A89A1024.jpg
> 
> Here is a view of the entire board which has a DB-9 connector to connect 
> to the outside world. In the foreground is the output which converts the 5Mhz 
> output of the oscillator to 15Mhz that goes to the SMA connector. The size 
> of this OXCO is exactly the same as the 5650A rubidium oscillator by FEI. 
> Adjustment may be digital and/or analog.
> .   
> http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/FE-489A606-1.jpg
> 
> -Arthur
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[time-nuts] Morion MV89A pics

[Arthur Dent]

>Hi
>
>I do not believe FE owns Morion. The most certainly own space in the Morion 
>factory. Last time I was there I saw the space.
>
>Bob

'Own' may have been too strong a word but FEI is invested in Morion 
and the FEI site doesn't describe Morion as a wholly-owned subsidiary 
but one of its  "Affiliated Companies". Either way the photo I posted 
show that the FE-489A has an identical oscillator to to the MV89A, or 
would you say 'similar'?   ;-).   

-Arthur
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[time-nuts] Two Different FE-5680A's

[Ken Kubick]

Hi Joseph,  I have baught five FE-5680A's from nichgeek.  I have taken the 
covers off all of them.  What I have learned in my dealings with nichgeek is 
there seems to be two different kinds of FE-5680A.  I have not checked the part 
numbers though.  One is programable by RS-232 commands and no output on the 9 
pin connector.  In order to program and get output you have to modify the cover 
by adding a slot and a hole and wire up the connectors.  The other one is not 
programmable and has fixed 10Mhz output. The PCB layouts are totally different 
inside.  You can tell whih one you have without removing the cover by looking 
for the press in stud marks on the bottom plate.
 
Any questions feel free to email me.
 
Good Luck
 
Ken Kubick
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Joseph Gray]

Considering that I get a Lock and PPS but no 10 MHz, I have to assume
that the unit is defective. Still waiting to see what nichegeek says.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> HI
>
> I suspect it's the same part then. I doubt they were using two vastly 
> different Rb's on the same card.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>
>> This one has no SMA and hasn't been modded in any way that I can tell.
>> It came on a cutoff circuit board, like the others.
>>
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> There is a variant that comes from the factory with no 10 MHz output at 
>>> all. Industrious people in far away places drill holes and wire up SMA 
>>> connectors to give them a 10 MHz output. If yours is one of those, the mod 
>>> may not have been 100% effective. Maybe a loose wire ….
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>>>
 Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a
 PPS on pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.

 Joe Gray
 W5JG

 On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal
> use. They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the
> same source.
>
> For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC
> module from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as
> the previous units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit
> gets warm, I get no 10 MHz output at all on pin 7.
>
> I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one
> of my units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine
> puts out a nice 10 MHz in short order.
>
> Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine
> has a large white label that says "P/N 217400-30352-1".  On the
> smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit
> is silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
> UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".
>
> I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different
> pinouts. I'm wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I
> purchased before.
>
> I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG

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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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[time-nuts] Frequency calibrator for sale ?

[Mark Spencer]

Saw what looks like a military version of a vectron frequency standard on eBay. 
 Item number 

251075220188

The under $100.00 buy it now price seems a refreshing change from what others 
are asking for similar items and they are open to offers.  They probably won't 
ship to Canada and I probably have enough stuff like this so i thought I would 
pass this on.   

I have no affiliation with the seller and no specific knowledge of the item in 
question.



Sent from my iPad
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS / GNSS front-end board

[Hal Murray]

> * Connect all free pins of the FPGA to a 2.54mm header pin connector

Don't go overboard on the "all" if that makes a mess of the routing or layout.

Be sure to put "enough" ground pins on the header(s).  Power too.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[Tom Van Baak]

> Keep in mind that a vast majority of these devices are used in "unmanned"  
> installations, i.e., cellular base stations, etc.

> Another factor, competition is so tough these days that most receiver
> chip manufacturers have dropped the eeprom for cost savings. 
> Doug

The trend these days for commodity GPS chips is "assisted GPS". Mobile phones 
and cellular base stations both have low latency access to the entire telecom 
infrastructure. When you can get the time of day, day of year, approximate 
lat/lon or up-to-the-minute GPS ephemeris, or leap second schedules over the 
net within milliseconds there is no longer a compelling need for something 
old-fashion like EEPROM or waiting 12.5 minutes to get orbit or UTC information 
at 50 baud from the satellites themselves. You could call it cost savings but 
really it's just a clever way to vastly improve specs like time-to-first-fix 
for a huge segment of the GPS receiver market. For example, why would a GPS 
chip in a smartphone need its own eeprom?

/tvb



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Re: [time-nuts] Different or defective FE-5680A?

[Ed Palmer]

A few years ago I bought an FE-5680A that had only a 1 PPS output - no 
10 MHz.  The part number is the same format as yours.  It came on a 
Motorola circuit board (not cutoff).  It is programmable over a wide 
frequency range (typically < 100 Hz to 15-20 MHz), but you have to bring 
out the signal yourself, make a couple of internal mods and change the 
frequency from it's default of 8.388608 MHz.  As soon as you do this, 
the 1 PPS is no longer 1 PPS.  It doesn't require 5V, only 15V.  It also 
has the lock on pin 3.  You may have the same unit.  If so, you probably 
got a good deal since the programmable unit is typically more expensive 
than the 10 MHz only version.  Of course, the prices of these things 
have been all over the map lately.


Ed


On 6/8/2012 9:14 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Considering that I get a Lock and PPS but no 10 MHz, I have to assume
that the unit is defective. Still waiting to see what nichegeek says.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

HI

I suspect it's the same part then. I doubt they were using two vastly different 
Rb's on the same card.

Bob

On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:


This one has no SMA and hasn't been modded in any way that I can tell.
It came on a cutoff circuit board, like the others.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

Hi

There is a variant that comes from the factory with no 10 MHz output at all. 
Industrious people in far away places drill holes and wire up SMA connectors to 
give them a 10 MHz output. If yours is one of those, the mod may not have been 
100% effective. Maybe a loose wire ….

Bob

On Jun 8, 2012, at 5:21 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:


Further information. I do get a Lock (low) indication on pin-3 and a PPS on 
pin-6. Nothing at all on pin-7.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:

Months ago, I ordered two FE-5680A units from nichgeek for my personal use. 
They work just fine. Recently, I ordered one for work from the same source.

For the work unit, I ordered a small 15 VDC switcher and a 5 V DC-DC module 
from Jameco. Today, I wired it all up, using the same pinout as the previous 
units that I bought from nichegeek. Although the unit gets warm, I get no 10 
MHz output at all on pin 7.

I double checked my wiring and it is OK. I even went home and got one of my 
units. Plugging my home unit in place of the work unit, mine puts out a nice 10 
MHz in short order.

Looking closer, I see that the two units are labeled differently. Mine has a large white label that says "P/N 
217400-30352-1".  On the smaller label "FE-5680A  UN 78082" and "S/N 0434-84673". The work unit is 
silkscreened with "PN: FE-5680A". The small label says "FE-5680A
UN37915 REVISION: B" and "S/N 0226-53954".

I know that there are several versions of FE-5680A, with different pinouts. I'm 
wondering if this latest unit is different than the two I purchased before.

I've emailed nichegeek and am awaiting a reply.

Joe Gray
W5JG



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