[time-nuts] They're baaaack!

[Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R]

Are LightSquared still trying to get some value from their contributions?

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/lightsquared-still-wont-give-up-on-spectrum-near-gps-band/

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=a2a98f9f-beae-4642-9ba0-a1874805f024

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Raj]

>Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wonding if it really
>exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one
>yet?
>
>http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf

It is small enough to incorporate in the external antenna !

Raj 


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Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Tom Van Baak]

> I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since 
> I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 
> figures on that counter.

If you look closely you'll see that the 53132A resolution drops by a factor of 
ten (to 11 digits per second) when then input is too near 5 or 10 MHz. There's 
a note on page 185 of the user manual:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/53131-90055.pdf

/tvb




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Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Magnus Danielson]

On 10/01/2012 11:13 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since
I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12
figures on that counter.


Limited? The question is not so much counting the figures but asking if
the how much the figures count.


As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in
frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found
the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going
further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode
noise floor.


In frequency mode, the hp 53131A/53132A counters use a clever internal
averaging mode. It's mentioned in the manual. The readings it reports are
a highly oversampled mean frequency. This is nothing to complain about,
really. Typically, with a frequency counter you are only interested in a
smoothed averaged result. And these hp and other modern frequency counters
do this quite well.


So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups
are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of
the given instruments?


An ADEV measurement is rather different from average frequency measurement.
ADEV tries to tell you the variance, the deviations from the average
frequency, as a function of tau. It's purpose is to measure the noise, not
make the noise go away.


True, but the measure is also there to show you how credible your 
frequency measures are, so what you wrote above does not add up with 
what you then later say.


Turns out that ADEV fills two purposes, both giving a reference curve 
for oscillators and estimating the precision of it's frequency measure.
If you change your frequency measure, you will need another estimator 
for the precision since it needs to include the averaging effect that 
your frequency stability method applies. That number would however not 
give you the proper ADEV curve.


It's tricky business.

The difference between these ADEV and the deviation of the estimator is 
a bias function, which is usually expressed as a multiplicative bias 
function for these measures.



So the more a frequency counter averages (in order
to give you a smooth average frequency) the more it is actually suppressing
the very variations that you are trying to measure. In order to gain
"precision" these frequency counters are removing part of the "variance";
ADEV is completely ignores precision and is only concerned with the variance.


Which is true when we talk about the AVAR/ADEV reference. You are 
confusing things a little when you talk about ADEV and then say 
variance, it's like saying AVAR and deviation.



This is why one-shot phase meters or time interval counters give a more pure
view of oscillator performance. Yes, they tend to report a little to a lot
more noise -- but that's because there *is* more noise. An oversampling
frequency counter takes the liberty to average away as much noise as it
possibly can, to suppress the short-term variations, and present just a
single value as the one true answer.


It's a matter of learning what the tool does for you and what it doesn't 
do for you.


I rarely see the frequency measures with the ADEV next to it or even 
better... under it.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Ed Palmer]

As you've found, time interval counters by themselves can't measure 
Allan Deviation to the levels required for today's precision oscillators.


Here are three google searches - either a general search or search the 
Time Nuts archive at www.febo.com.  They will get you started in the 
topic of Allan Deviation measurement.


"single mixer" -"dual mixer" "allan deviation"
"Tight PLL"
DMTD oscillator

These describe the three main methods of measuring Allan Deviation. To 
oversimplify, they increase the time-domain noise in a way that allows 
measurements that don't require such small time interval resolutions 
(i.e.. less than 1 picosecond).  They each have strong and weak points.


The single mixer method is probably the easiest, but requires a 
reference oscillator that is comparable in quality to the device under 
test and is offset in frequency by typically 1-100 Hz.


The Tight PLL method was discussed a few years ago on this list but 
hasn't really caught on much even though it appears to be as good as the 
other methods.


The DMTD (Dual Mixer Time Difference) method is the standard for 
comparing two oscillators that are running at the same frequency. It 
also requires an offset frequency oscillator, but it doesn't have to be 
as good as the devices under test because it's noise is cancelled out.  
It has the most complicated hardware setup of the three methods.


All of these methods require extreme attention to detail to get top 
performance.


Note:  Once you start down this rabbit hole, there is no turning back.  
You have been warned!  :-)


Ed


On 10/1/2012 2:31 PM, Adrian wrote:

Hi All,

thanks to John's superb free Timelab software, I tried ADEV for the 
first time, after having been mostly interested in phase noise yet.


I learned that ADEV sensitivity is limited by the 500 ps resolution of 
the counter that leads to a noise floor of 5E-10 at 1 sec, going down 
to 5E-11 at 100 sec etc.
Actually, the dynamic range allows only for meaningful results beyond 
a few hundred seconds. Anything below 100 sec is simply below the 
system noise floor.
Note that the measurement noise floor appears to be determined 
exclusively by the resolution of the counter time interval mode, 
which, for a HP 53131A is 500 ps.
A 53132A with 200 ps resolution should produce a noise floor of 2E-10 
at 1 sec. Likewise, a 20 ps counter (5370A, SR620) should get you to 
2E-11 at 1 sec.


Here is an example that shows what I mean: http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm.
Add limit lines to the diagram as discussed above to see what I mean.
Even a 5370A or SR620 would not be good enough to measure the 5065A 
below 100 sec in that example, since anything below a straight line 
through the points 2E-11 / 1 sec and 2E-14 / 1000 sec would be below 
the measurement limit.


I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, 
since I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with 
up to 12 figures on that counter.


As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in 
frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and 
found the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and 
going further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the 
TI mode noise floor.


So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and 
setups are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max 
out of the given instruments?


Adrian





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Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Tom Van Baak]

> I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since 
> I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 
> figures on that counter.

Limited? The question is not so much counting the figures but asking if the how 
much the figures count.

> As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in 
> frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found 
> the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going 
> further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode 
> noise floor.

In frequency mode, the hp 53131A/53132A counters use a clever internal 
averaging mode. It's mentioned in the manual. The readings it reports are a 
highly oversampled mean frequency. This is nothing to complain about, really. 
Typically, with a frequency counter you are only interested in a smoothed 
averaged result. And these hp and other modern frequency counters do this quite 
well.

> So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups 
> are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of 
> the given instruments?

An ADEV measurement is rather different from average frequency measurement. 
ADEV tries to tell you the variance, the deviations from the average frequency, 
as a function of tau. It's purpose is to measure the noise, not make the noise 
go away. So the more a frequency counter averages (in order to give you a 
smooth average frequency) the more it is actually suppressing the very 
variations that you are trying to measure. In order to gain "precision" these 
frequency counters are removing part of the "variance"; ADEV is completely 
ignores precision and is only concerned with the variance.

This is why one-shot phase meters or time interval counters give a more pure 
view of oscillator performance. Yes, they tend to report a little to a lot more 
noise -- but that's because there *is* more noise. An oversampling frequency 
counter takes the liberty to average away as much noise as it possibly can, to 
suppress the short-term variations, and present just a single value as the one 
true answer.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Magnus Danielson]

On 10/01/2012 10:31 PM, Adrian wrote:

Hi All,

thanks to John's superb free Timelab software, I tried ADEV for the
first time, after having been mostly interested in phase noise yet.

I learned that ADEV sensitivity is limited by the 500 ps resolution of
the counter that leads to a noise floor of 5E-10 at 1 sec, going down to
5E-11 at 100 sec etc.
Actually, the dynamic range allows only for meaningful results beyond a
few hundred seconds. Anything below 100 sec is simply below the system
noise floor.
Note that the measurement noise floor appears to be determined
exclusively by the resolution of the counter time interval mode, which,
for a HP 53131A is 500 ps.
A 53132A with 200 ps resolution should produce a noise floor of 2E-10 at
1 sec. Likewise, a 20 ps counter (5370A, SR620) should get you to 2E-11
at 1 sec.

Here is an example that shows what I mean: http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm.
Add limit lines to the diagram as discussed above to see what I mean.
Even a 5370A or SR620 would not be good enough to measure the 5065A
below 100 sec in that example, since anything below a straight line
through the points 2E-11 / 1 sec and 2E-14 / 1000 sec would be below the
measurement limit.

I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since
I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12
figures on that counter.

As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in
frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found
the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going
further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode
noise floor.

So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups
are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of
the given instruments?


Ahem, you should be careful with certain modes of the 53131/53132 
counters, amongst others. As they do internal smoothing they do a form 
of filtering which gives you artificially lower numbers than the actual 
numbers. We have covered this several times and from many angles.


Stick to the TI mode for correct numbers.

Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] Best counter setting for ADEV?

[Adrian]

Hi All,

thanks to John's superb free Timelab software, I tried ADEV for the 
first time, after having been mostly interested in phase noise yet.


I learned that ADEV sensitivity is limited by the 500 ps resolution of 
the counter that leads to a noise floor of 5E-10 at 1 sec, going down to 
5E-11 at 100 sec etc.
Actually, the dynamic range allows only for meaningful results beyond a 
few hundred seconds. Anything below 100 sec is simply below the system 
noise floor.
Note that the measurement noise floor appears to be determined 
exclusively by the resolution of the counter time interval mode, which, 
for a HP 53131A is 500 ps.
A 53132A with 200 ps resolution should produce a noise floor of 2E-10 at 
1 sec. Likewise, a 20 ps counter (5370A, SR620) should get you to 2E-11 
at 1 sec.


Here is an example that shows what I mean: http://www.ke5fx.com/rb.htm.
Add limit lines to the diagram as discussed above to see what I mean.
Even a 5370A or SR620 would not be good enough to measure the 5065A 
below 100 sec in that example, since anything below a straight line 
through the points 2E-11 / 1 sec and 2E-14 / 1000 sec would be below the 
measurement limit.


I was wondering why the resolution in TI mode is so much limited, since 
I never had any problems measuring 5 or 10 MHz frequencies with up to 12 
figures on that counter.


As a quic 'n dirty test, I tried to measure ADEV with my 53131A in 
frequency mode using a gate time of 5.1 s for max resolution, and found 
the noise floor had shifted down to 3...4E-12 at 10 sec, and going 
further down to 5E-13 at 1000 sec from where it was equal to the TI mode 
noise floor.


So, what is the best method to use for ADEV? What instruments and setups 
are you using, and what works best for you? How to get the max out of 
the given instruments?


Adrian

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Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost

[paul swed]

I do not but could easily imagine in the new range they are with power
supply antenna warranty etc. I know my $139 china purchase has been one of
the best deals in a long time. That was about a year ago. So I do not think
thats a crazy number for brand new.
Other will let me know how wrong I am.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:36 PM,  wrote:

> Hello all -
>
>
> I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.
>
>> Maybe more than $465?
>>
>>
>>  I ran across this some time ago -
>
> Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to
> go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that
> this is a later model than the one offered surplus.
>
> Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things...
>
>
> Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions
> www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-**component-models.htm
> Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts.
> TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00,
> Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot
> cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ...
>
> I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8
> channel was about the same.
>
> 73 john k6iql
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Javier Herrero]

I asked for a quotation to one spanish distributor about a year ago. It 
was quoted at 977 EUR for a single unit, for the newer Thunderbolt E.


$465 seems not bad for that unit.

Regards,

Javier


El 01/10/2012 18:53, Chris Albertson escribió:

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham  wrote:


A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
region of 6
weeks.


I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.
Maybe more than $465?


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost

[Bill Dailey]

BTW this device is not nearly as good as a thunderbolt.  Closer to that
gpstcxo development kit that Jackson Labs is offering (HPSDR guys are using
it I think).  The short term and long term stability quite frankly doesn't
appear to be in the same league as the Thunderbolt although someone would
need to test one.

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:36 PM,  wrote:

> Hello all -
>
>
> I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.
>
>> Maybe more than $465?
>>
>>
>>  I ran across this some time ago -
>
> Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to
> go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that
> this is a later model than the one offered surplus.
>
> Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things...
>
>
> Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions
> www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-**component-models.htm
> Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts.
> TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00,
> Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot
> cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ...
>
> I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8
> channel was about the same.
>
> 73 john k6iql
>
>
>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Doc

Bill Dailey
KXØO
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[time-nuts] Tbolt Orignal Cost

[johncroos]

Hello all -


I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.

Maybe more than $465?



I ran across this some time ago -

Perhaps someone has a better number but the later ones seem to
go for $ 1500 for the kit with the antenna from a distributor. Note that
this is a later model than the one offered surplus.

Google Trimble Thunder bolt cost and found among other things...


Trimble Embedded Components - TOPP Group, Inc - Data Solutions
www.toppcompanies.com/tds/tds-component-models.htm
Trimble GPS Developer Kits - Inquire about available volume discounts. 
TTPart no, Mfr.Part no. Description, PDF, Price List ... 35349-00, 
Thunderbolt Starter Kit: inlcudes Thunderbolt, bullet antenna, 75 foot 
cable, power connector, $1,595.00 ...


I think this is a 12 channel receiver. I suspect that years ago the 8 
channel was about the same.


73 john k6iql



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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Bill Dailey]

Well over 1000.  Can still buy them

Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero!

On Oct 1, 2012, at 11:53 AM, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham  wrote:
> 
>> A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
>> region of 6
>> weeks.
> 
> 
> I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.
> Maybe more than $465?
> 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Messy benches

[james machado]

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM, John Pease  wrote:
> Don
>
> Latham's law of horizontal surfaces states "Any bare horizontal surface
> immediately becomes covered with junk."
>
>
> I would offer a more general law:
>
> A N dimensional surface tends to attrack N+1 dimensional objects to the 
> saturation limit.

As I had always heard it:

"Any flat surface accumulates stuff, until as such time that it has
accumulated so much stuff it can no longer maintain it's structural
integrity.  At this time the pile of stuff re-organizes itself
creating a new flat surface unto which you can pile more stuff."

james

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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Chris Albertson]

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Don Latham  wrote:

> A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
> region of 6
> weeks.


I Wonder what price the T-Bolts sold for new in single quantities.
Maybe more than $465?


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Bill Dailey]

That isn't bad

Sent from my iPhone and Hunter Lambert is my hero!

On Oct 1, 2012, at 11:27 AM, "Don Latham"  wrote:

> Hello Hal and all:
> Here's the answer I got:
> 
> "Don,
> 
> A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
> region of 6
> weeks.
> 
> Best Regards
> Steven Wilson (史帝文)
> Technical Director
> 
> RFX Limited
> Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K.
> Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333
> email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk
> www.rfx.co.u"
> 
> Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase?
> 
> Don Latham
> 
> Hal Murray
>> 
>> t...@westwood-tech.com said:
>>> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
>>> *everything*
>>> that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.
>> 
>> Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I
>> wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the
>> market"?
>> 
>> I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.
>> 
>> 1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research
>> but
>> haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking
>> for
>> initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really
>> need
>> (and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine,
>> we'll
>> make that first.  How tall?
>> 
>> 2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work
>> well in
>> your application.
>> 
>> 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only
>> stock a
>> few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a
>> better price by picking the right options.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
> 
> 
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Bob Camp]

Hi

That's not a bad price for one piece.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 12:27 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

Hello Hal and all:
Here's the answer I got:

"Don,

A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
region of 6
weeks.

Best Regards
Steven Wilson (史帝文)
Technical Director

RFX Limited
Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K.
Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333
email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk
www.rfx.co.u"

Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase?

Don Latham

Hal Murray
>
> t...@westwood-tech.com said:
>> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
>> *everything*
>> that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.
>
> Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I
> wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the
> market"?
>
> I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.
>
> 1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research
> but
> haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking
> for
> initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really
> need
> (and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine,
> we'll
> make that first.  How tall?
>
> 2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work
> well in
> your application.
>
> 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only
> stock a
> few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a
> better price by picking the right options.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Don Latham]

Hello Hal and all:
Here's the answer I got:

"Don,

A single unit would set you back $465.00 and delivery would be in the
region of 6
weeks.

Best Regards
Steven Wilson (史帝文)
Technical Director

RFX Limited
Unit 11A, Oakbank Park, Livingston, West Lothian, Scotland,EH53 0TH, U.K.
Tel - +44 (0)1506 439222, Fax - +44 (0)1506 439333
email/skype: steven.wil...@rfx.co.uk
www.rfx.co.u"

Perhaps time-nuts would be interested in a group purchase?

Don Latham

Hal Murray
>
> t...@westwood-tech.com said:
>> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
>> *everything*
>> that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.
>
> Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I
> wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the
> market"?
>
> I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.
>
> 1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research
> but
> haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking
> for
> initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really
> need
> (and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine,
> we'll
> make that first.  How tall?
>
> 2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work
> well in
> your application.
>
> 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only
> stock a
> few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a
> better price by picking the right options.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] SMT Probing Stuff

[J. Forster]

Aging eyesight, for one. For another, I don't like hacking up hardware.
And there is not a lot of access, except from directly above, and lots of
easily melted plastic nereby.

-John

==


> On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT)
> "J. Forster"  wrote:
>
>> I recently bought some clean IBM Thinkpads cheap with unknown Boot
>> PassWords. There is a hack to access the existing PWs and rewrite them,
>> but it requires connecting to an 8 pin SMT IC.
>>
>> I know several vendors make "Dip Clip" type devices for connection to
>> such
>> chips, but I'd like reccomendations on whose are really any good.
>
> What speaks against soldering some AWG30 wire onto the pins?
> Usually thats nearly as fast as using a clip, but gives you much
> better connection. Unless i have dozens of boards i have to connect
> to, i usually use this instead of clips.
>
>
>   Attila Kinali
> --
> The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
> up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
> them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
>   -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
>
>



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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Jim Lux]

On 9/30/12 10:51 PM, Thomas Valerio wrote:

Actually, it was in Nuts & Volts as well, and I was thinking about posting
a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty much
went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price
information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
*everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a
scam.  The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is
that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the
only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price
point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get their
spiel out.





I don't find that to be the case for connectorized RF components. 
Virtually all manufacturers have a listing of most of their parts and 
data sheets, but very few have a "price list" online.  MiniCircuits is a 
notable exception.  Yes, well established piece parts might have pricing 
from a distributor, as well.


But for a lot of new components, the final price might not be set yet, 
and may also depend on your specific requirements. A mfr might not want 
to commit to a 10,000 piece production run and hope that their eventual 
customer didn't want a particular inspection or test that they decided 
not to do.


It's also the case that for some of these components, they're not 
available in small quantities.  I've called many a mfr up for some 
product aimed at the wireless industry and asked about pricing, and 
their question is "how many thousand a month will you be using"..






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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Bill Dailey]

On Oct 1, 2012, at 4:45 AM, Javier Herrero  wrote:

> El 01/10/2012 11:22, Hal Murray escribió:
>> t...@westwood-tech.com said:
>>> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much *everything*
>>> that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.
>> Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I
>> wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the market"?
>> 
>> I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.
>> 
>> 1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research but
>> haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking for
>> initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need
>> (and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine, we'll
>> make that first.  How tall?
>> 
>> 2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work well in
>> your application.
>> 
>> 3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only stock a
>> few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a
>> better price by picking the right options.
> 4) The price varies a lot as a function of the quantity. They prefer to quote 
> you as a function of the volume you request, and don't want you to be 
> dissappointed it they publish a 1000+ price and you only want 10, or to make 
> you think that it is too expensive if you want 1 but you think that the 
> price, based on single quantites, is too expensive
> 
> 5) International marketing policies. They want, for example, their US 
> distributor to quote you, and will not provide you a direct factory pricing.

6) Contractual or legal reasons.  If they have contracted to build them for 
someone they may have given them "special" pricing and they don't want anybody 
to know what that "special" pricing was.  If that price was negotiated well and 
was very high whoever they sold it to may realize their price was a different 
kind of special than they thought.
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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Javier Herrero]

El 01/10/2012 11:22, Hal Murray escribió:

t...@westwood-tech.com said:

information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much *everything*
that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.

Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I
wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the market"?

I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.

1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research but
haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking for
initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need
(and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine, we'll
make that first.  How tall?

2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work well in
your application.

3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only stock a
few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a
better price by picking the right options.

4) The price varies a lot as a function of the quantity. They prefer to 
quote you as a function of the volume you request, and don't want you to 
be dissappointed it they publish a 1000+ price and you only want 10, or 
to make you think that it is too expensive if you want 1 but you 
think that the price, based on single quantites, is too expensive


5) International marketing policies. They want, for example, their US 
distributor to quote you, and will not provide you a direct factory pricing.


In fact, I think that the usual thing is not to publish a price if they 
are not selling it directly to you. We don't publish prices of our 
products, and they are not a scam, not outrangeously expensive, they 
exists, they are not (very) tricky to use, and has not so many 
options... mainly the reasons are 4 and 5 :)


Regards,

Javier


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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Hal Murray]

t...@westwood-tech.com said:
> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much *everything*
> that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a scam.

Yes, when it says "call for pricing", I usually drop interest.  But I 
wouldn't say "scam".  How about "not targeted at my corner of the market"?

I can think of several reasons for not publishing a price.

1) The product doesn't really exist yet.  They have done the research but 
haven't finished up and handed off to manufacturing.  They are looking for 
initial customers so they can tune things to fit what customers really need 
(and are willing to pay for).  You want the tall skinny version?  Fine, we'll 
make that first.  How tall?

2) The product is tricky to use.  They want to make sure it will work well in 
your application.

3) The product has lots of interacting options/parameters.  They only stock a 
few combinations.  If you want to buy more than a handful, you can get a 
better price by picking the right options.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined?

[Hal Murray]

hp_cisco...@yahoo.com said:
> One thing I am wondering about is disciplining - how much of this is HW and
> how much is SW?

> How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined? It it common practice to
> provide a GPS antenna input? 

I think you are missing the big picture.

There are two different types of boxes.

There are oscillators.  They come in all types of quality.  Many of the good 
ones include an oven to keep the crystal at a constant temperature.  OCXO is 
a common term: Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator.

There are GPSDOs: GPS Disciplined Oscillators, for example the Trimble 
Thunderbolt.  They generally start with a good crystal, then add a GPS unit, 
some hardware to compare the crystal output with the GPS output, and a 
microprocessor and software to control everything.

Crystals can be tuned slightly by changing the capacitance in parallel with 
the crystal.  You can do that by using a diode for the capacitor and changing 
the back-bias across the diode.  Usually, that voltage comes from a DAC.

"Discipline" just means making it do what you want.  Usually, that's put out 
the right time and/or frequency.  GPS is a handy way to get both time and 
frequency.

GPS and a good crystal are a good fit.  GPS has lots of short term noise but 
very very good long term accuracy.  Crystals have good short term stability 
but lots of long term drift.


> How are non-Trimble oscillators disciplined?

Any way you want.  Whatever fits your application.

One approach is to adjust something with a screwdriver.  You have to do that 
frequently enough so that it meets your needs.  Usually, crystals come with 
specs, things like max drift over a month or year.  So you can figure out if 
you need to calibrate it monthly or annually.  It's easier to get better 
accuracy with GPS.


You might have fun browsing data sheets.  Feed OCXO to google and see what 
you get.

There is lots of info available on the HP Z3801A.
  http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Frequency_Standard.htm
(Time sink warning.)






-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Don Latham]

It's been like that since the first op-amps and RTL. The new devices are
all made with Nonobtanium and Administratium.


Thomas Valerio
> Actually, it was in Nuts & Volts as well, and I was thinking about
> posting
> a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty
> much
> went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price
> information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
> *everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a
> scam.  The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is
> that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the
> only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price
> point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get
> their
> spiel out.
>
> Thomas Valerio
>
>> Offhand I can not think of any reason it could not exist but if you
>> have to ask for the price, then I suspect it will be too expensive.
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:40:47 -0700, Skip Withrow
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>Hello Nuts,
>>>Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wondering if it really
>>>exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one
>>>yet?
>>>
>>>http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Skip Withrow
>
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>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] RFX GPSDO - Anybody played with one of these?

[Thomas Valerio]

Actually, it was in Nuts & Volts as well, and I was thinking about posting
a similar query to the list, but my incentive and my interest pretty much
went negative when my cursory investigation revealed that price
information appeared to be non-existent.  IMHO for pretty much
*everything* that is for sale, if you have to ask for the price it is a
scam.  The message that I get from non-existent pricing information is
that this product's price/value proposition can't stand on it's own, the
only way you will be convinced to purchase, at a usually inflated price
point, is after the snake oil sales people have had a chance to get their
spiel out.

Thomas Valerio

> Offhand I can not think of any reason it could not exist but if you
> have to ask for the price, then I suspect it will be too expensive.
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:40:47 -0700, Skip Withrow
>  wrote:
>
>>Hello Nuts,
>>Just saw this mentioned in Circuit Cellar, just wondering if it really
>>exists, how much they are asking, and if anyone has played with one
>>yet?
>>
>>http://www.rfx.co.uk/pdfs/GPS_OCXO_1300_10_module.pdf
>>
>>Regards,
>>Skip Withrow

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Re: [time-nuts] SMT Probing Stuff

[Attila Kinali]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT)
"J. Forster"  wrote:

> I recently bought some clean IBM Thinkpads cheap with unknown Boot
> PassWords. There is a hack to access the existing PWs and rewrite them,
> but it requires connecting to an 8 pin SMT IC.
> 
> I know several vendors make "Dip Clip" type devices for connection to such
> chips, but I'd like reccomendations on whose are really any good.

What speaks against soldering some AWG30 wire onto the pins?
Usually thats nearly as fast as using a clip, but gives you much
better connection. Unless i have dozens of boards i have to connect
to, i usually use this instead of clips.


Attila Kinali
-- 
The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
-- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

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