Re: [time-nuts] GPS at 60,000 feet

2013-01-30 Thread Said Jackson
That jump cost $$millions :)

I bet they had a Saasm on board..

Bye,
Said

On Jan 29, 2013, at 15:09, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 Hi Said,
 
 On 01/29/2013 11:39 PM, Said Jackson wrote:
 Ublox limits it to 164,000 feet or 50,000m. Pretty much higher than any 
 ballon would go I think.
 
 Well, then we have a particular space-jumper which was in the vincinity of 
 that height.
 
 You should get yourself a GPS simulator. For your purposes the Pendulum GPS 
 simulator should be the cost-effective solution, but maybe you can afford the 
 full-blown Spirent simulator. For most lab-bench tests, the simpler Pendulum 
 has found good use even for those having the full-blown.
 
 Wish I could afford one myself. Would be fun.
 
 Cheers,
 Magnus
 
 
 Bye,
 Said
 
 Sent From iPhone
 
 On Jan 29, 2013, at 13:24, Mike Smi...@flatsurface.com  wrote:
 
 On 1/29/2013 1:55 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote:
 Note that this is higher than the older GPS would support, due to the new
 Wassenaar speed/altitude limits.
 
 What are the current limits? UBlox is Swiss, and therefore subject to 
 Wassenaar. Are there any GPS chip makers in China (or ?), who wouldn't be 
 subject to any limitations?
 
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[time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop

2013-01-30 Thread Robert Darby

Gentlemen,

I've been a lurker on this list since early in 2012.  I do not possess a 
technical background but do have some interest in time measurement topics.


I was reading some of W. J. Riley's papers and saw that after the long 
and contentious discussion on this list Mr Riley built and tested a 
tight phase lock loop system.


I have failed to turn up any mention of his paper on this list and was 
curious if anyone has read it or perhaps duplicated it?


He writes HP 10811 ovenized  crystal oscillators are used as both the 
locked oscillator and PLL reference, and the system thus measures the 
combined instability of two presumed identical and uncorrelated 
devices. He further notes that These results agree well with other 
measurements  for  this type of crystal oscillator.


The paper is found at:

http://www.stable32.com/Frequency%20Stability%20Measurements%20Using%20a%20Tight%20Phase%20Lock%20Loop.pdf

The construction is described in greater detail in a separate paper:

http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf

The OCVCXO and PLL Board described therein appears to be a very 
versatile piece of gear for anyone using 10811's.   Riley gives an 
example using the module to clean-up the output of a LPRO-101 rubidium 
(page 9).



Regards,
Bob Darby


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Re: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop

2013-01-30 Thread Tom Van Baak
Hi Bob,

The TPLL method is described by NIST: 
http://tf.nist.gov/phase/Properties/one.htm

A few years ago it was re-developed by WarrenS, a dedicated and frequent 
contributor to this list.

See also John Miles excellent report: http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
Or if that's dead, see 
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm

It's nice that W.J. Riley also tried it. If you know Bill, he makes us all look 
like amateurs.

We know cases where TPLL works quite well; there are other cases where it 
doesn't. It would be nice if either Warren or John or Bill or anyone else 
posted a real schematic and BOM so that others could reliably duplicate, 
corroborate, refute, or refine their results. For some reason, it's like a big 
mystery; very unlike what we try to foster here on time-nuts: the free sharing 
of information, methods, experience, designs, results, and conclusions.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: Robert Darby bobda...@triad.rr.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 10:32 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop


 Gentlemen,
 
 I've been a lurker on this list since early in 2012.  I do not possess a 
 technical background but do have some interest in time measurement topics.
 
 I was reading some of W. J. Riley's papers and saw that after the long 
 and contentious discussion on this list Mr Riley built and tested a 
 tight phase lock loop system.
 
 I have failed to turn up any mention of his paper on this list and was 
 curious if anyone has read it or perhaps duplicated it?
 
 He writes HP 10811 ovenized  crystal oscillators are used as both the 
 locked oscillator and PLL reference, and the system thus measures the 
 combined instability of two presumed identical and uncorrelated 
 devices. He further notes that These results agree well with other 
 measurements  for  this type of crystal oscillator.
 
 The paper is found at:
 
 http://www.stable32.com/Frequency%20Stability%20Measurements%20Using%20a%20Tight%20Phase%20Lock%20Loop.pdf
 
 The construction is described in greater detail in a separate paper:
 
 http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf
 
 The OCVCXO and PLL Board described therein appears to be a very 
 versatile piece of gear for anyone using 10811's.   Riley gives an 
 example using the module to clean-up the output of a LPRO-101 rubidium 
 (page 9).
 
 
 Regards,
 Bob Darby
 


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Re: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop

2013-01-30 Thread Adrian

Hi Tom,

Bill has actually published detailed schematics etc here:
http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf

Btw. what do you think about his small DMTD system?
http://www.wriley.com/A%20Small%20DMTD%20System.pdf

Adrian


Tom Van Baak schrieb:

Hi Bob,

The TPLL method is described by NIST: 
http://tf.nist.gov/phase/Properties/one.htm

A few years ago it was re-developed by WarrenS, a dedicated and frequent 
contributor to this list.

See also John Miles excellent report: http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
Or if that's dead, see 
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm

It's nice that W.J. Riley also tried it. If you know Bill, he makes us all look 
like amateurs.

We know cases where TPLL works quite well; there are other cases where it 
doesn't. It would be nice if either Warren or John or Bill or anyone else 
posted a real schematic and BOM so that others could reliably duplicate, 
corroborate, refute, or refine their results. For some reason, it's like a big 
mystery; very unlike what we try to foster here on time-nuts: the free sharing 
of information, methods, experience, designs, results, and conclusions.

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: Robert Darby bobda...@triad.rr.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 10:32 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop



Gentlemen,

I've been a lurker on this list since early in 2012.  I do not possess a
technical background but do have some interest in time measurement topics.

I was reading some of W. J. Riley's papers and saw that after the long
and contentious discussion on this list Mr Riley built and tested a
tight phase lock loop system.

I have failed to turn up any mention of his paper on this list and was
curious if anyone has read it or perhaps duplicated it?

He writes HP 10811 ovenized  crystal oscillators are used as both the
locked oscillator and PLL reference, and the system thus measures the
combined instability of two presumed identical and uncorrelated
devices. He further notes that These results agree well with other
measurements  for  this type of crystal oscillator.

The paper is found at:

http://www.stable32.com/Frequency%20Stability%20Measurements%20Using%20a%20Tight%20Phase%20Lock%20Loop.pdf

The construction is described in greater detail in a separate paper:

http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf

The OCVCXO and PLL Board described therein appears to be a very
versatile piece of gear for anyone using 10811's.   Riley gives an
example using the module to clean-up the output of a LPRO-101 rubidium
(page 9).


Regards,
Bob Darby



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Re: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop

2013-01-30 Thread WarrenS


It would be nice if a real schematic and BOM was posted. it's like a big 
mystery ...

/tvb


As Adrian and Bob pointed out, W. J. Riley's site has all the information 
needed to make the higher cost TPLL version he did including his PCBs.


The bigger mystery seems to be how easy a TPLL can be built without loosing 
performance.
One version of the TPLL tester only needs 8 circuit parts plus + Power 
supplies etc,
These are all clearly specified on the bottom block diagram, dated June 7, 
2010 at

http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
And even that complete working, simple version, is good enough that the 
performance is still mostly limited by the HP10811 Reference Osc and not the 
TPLL circuit.


BOM for Extra simple TPLL
Nothing is critical, performance is determined by the Ref Osc.
1) Phase detector  =  SYPD-1
2) 100KHz  LPF = two each 220 ohm in series and two 0.0047uf caps to gnd
3) Amp = OP-27 Pin 3 is input, pin 6 is output
4) Amp feedback gain = + 300 set using a 30K feedback and 100 Ohm resistor 
to gnd

5) 20 Hz LPF =  8K ohm series R and 1uf to gnd
6) Ref Osc = HP10811
7) A slow mv DVM and/or a 16 bit ADC sampling at 100Hz or more.
8) misc connectors, PS, S/W, etc.

The configuration of the TPLL 1.0 that John tested, uses a 3dB and 5dB pad 
for isolation, (no real need for Osc buffers),
and has a higher closed loop PLL bandwidth using an op37 with more gain, (a 
tighter TPLL)
This can be seen by clicking on the underlined Here of John's report next 
to Fig 1.7 at

Warren's annotated block diagram can be seen HERE.

ws


Hi Tom,

Bill has actually published detailed schematics etc here:
http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf

Btw. what do you think about his small DMTD system?
http://www.wriley.com/A%20Small%20DMTD%20System.pdf

Adrian

***
Tom Van Baak schrieb:

Hi Bob,

The TPLL method is described by NIST: 
http://tf.nist.gov/phase/Properties/one.htm


A few years ago it was re-developed by WarrenS, a dedicated and frequent 
contributor to this list.


See also John Miles excellent report: http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm
Or if that's dead, see 
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm


It's nice that W.J. Riley also tried it. If you know Bill, he makes us all 
look like amateurs.


We know cases where TPLL works quite well; there are other cases where it 
doesn't. It would be nice if either Warren or John or Bill or anyone else 
posted a real schematic and BOM so that others could reliably duplicate, 
corroborate, refute, or refine their results. For some reason, it's like a 
big mystery; very unlike what we try to foster here on time-nuts: the free 
sharing of information, methods, experience, designs, results, and 
conclusions.


/tvb
*
- Original Message -
From: Robert Darby bobdarby at triad.rr.com
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 10:32 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Riley paper on Tight Phase Lock Loop


Gentlemen,

I've been a lurker on this list since early in 2012.  I do not possess a
technical background but do have some interest in time measurement 
topics.


I was reading some of W. J. Riley's papers and saw that after the long
and contentious discussion on this list Mr Riley built and tested a
tight phase lock loop system.

I have failed to turn up any mention of his paper on this list and was
curious if anyone has read it or perhaps duplicated it?

He writes HP 10811 ovenized  crystal oscillators are used as both the
locked oscillator and PLL reference, and the system thus measures the
combined instability of two presumed identical and uncorrelated
devices. He further notes that These results agree well with other
measurements  for  this type of crystal oscillator.

The paper is found at:

http://www.stable32.com/Frequency%20Stability%20Measurements%20Using%20a%20Tight%20Phase%20Lock%20Loop.pdf

The construction is described in greater detail in a separate paper:

http://www.stable32.com/A%2010%20MHz%20OCVCXO%20and%20PLL%20Module.pdf

The OCVCXO and PLL Board described therein appears to be a very
versatile piece of gear for anyone using 10811's.   Riley gives an
example using the module to clean-up the output of a LPRO-101 rubidium
(page 9).


Regards,
Bob Darby





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[time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Richard (Rick) Karlquist


I know this topic has been discussed in the past on the list, but
a colleague is asking if there are any off the shelf low
noise power supplies for testing oscillators.  Something
a cut above an HP brick lab power supply etc.  They are hoping
to avoid having to homebrew a power conditioning circuit.
Did we ever arrive at a concensus as to the state of the art
in homebrew power conditioning circuits?

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
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[time-nuts] Anyone Using a Yahoo Email Account - PLEASE READ !!

2013-01-30 Thread J. Forster
Folks,

As you have seen, the Group has been getting sammed lately. Most soams
never get posted to the Group, but some do. These apparently come from
hacked Yahoo email accounts.

Yahoo itself was hacked, and the passwords to about half a million Yahoo
email addresses were obtained.There are articles about it here

http://www.ibtimes.com/yahoo-password-hack-where-find-list-hacked-email-accounts-722396

and here

http://mashable.com/2012/07/12/yahoo-voices-hacked/.

The latter article also gives a link to see whether your particular
address is on the list.

What is happening here is that the hackers have obtained access to other
people's Yahoo email accounts.  If that applies to your address, they
can read all your mail, and send mails /as though they were you./   So
they will happily spam any groups that are connected with that email
address. We have now had several cases of it in a matter of a few days,
so I thought it time to take action.

PLEASE: If you use a Yahoo account to access this Group, either check the
second link and change your password, or just change your password.


Thank you,

-John

===

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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Lester Veenstra
The typical test supply on a bench for clean VCO testing is a small gel cell
battery.  For a regulated power supply, make one using a 723. The 723 has
far lower noise out than the monolithic regulators.  


Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
5 Shrine Club Drive
HC84 Box 89C
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

Telephones:
Home:     +1-304-289-6057
US cell    +1-304-790-9192 
UK cell    +44-(0)7849-248-749 
Guam Cell:  +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica:     +1-876-456-8898 
 
This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or
privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:17 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?


I know this topic has been discussed in the past on the list, but a
colleague is asking if there are any off the shelf low noise power supplies
for testing oscillators.  Something a cut above an HP brick lab power
supply etc.  They are hoping to avoid having to homebrew a power
conditioning circuit.
Did we ever arrive at a concensus as to the state of the art in homebrew
power conditioning circuits?

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Chris Albertson
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist
rich...@karlquist.com wrote:

 I know this topic has been discussed in the past on the list, but
 a colleague is asking if there are any off the shelf low
 noise power supplies for testing oscillators.  Something
 a cut above an HP brick lab power supply etc.

For once the best is also cheap:  Batteries.

But not all batteries are the same.  You want one with low internal
resistance, so a lead acid flooded battery will be the best.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Jim Lux

On 1/30/13 8:28 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:


For once the best is also cheap:  Batteries.

But not all batteries are the same.  You want one with low internal
resistance, so a lead acid flooded battery will be the best.


Most NiCd have very low internal resistance.. much lower than lead acid.

But aside from batteries, Rick's question is interesting, and I'd turn 
it around a bit.. What off the shelf catalog product has the lowest 
noise?  Do you go get a linear regulated supply from someone like Acopian?


And even more interesting.. if you're concerned about efficiency and 
want to use a DC/DC switcher to convert some ratty DC supply (12V 
vehicle power, or a solar panel, for instance) to something really 
quiet, what's the best strategy, using off the shelf bricks and modules.


That is, I'm sure someone could do a fabulous job with a box full of Ls 
and Cs and discrete components and a couple months to design, prototype, 
and build.. but if someone came to you and said, we want a mobile 
microwave system to study propagation in 3 weeks because they just got 
permission to go up on some mountain.  Something like a CW carrier at 
tens of GHz multiplied up from your very quiet oscillator, and they're 
going to look at turbulence and scintillation in the path, so time 
scales of milliseconds to 1000s of seconds are important.


What would you order from Newark, Allied, mouser, etc. (assuming you 
have your OCXOs and such sitting around).

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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Chris Albertson
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:
 On 1/30/13 8:28 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

 For once the best is also cheap:  Batteries.

 But not all batteries are the same.  You want one with low internal
 resistance, so a lead acid flooded battery will be the best.


 Most NiCd have very low internal resistance.. much lower than lead acid

Really?  I'm talking about flooded cells not gel.  I think large
automotive engine start battery might only have 20 milliohms
resistance.   But the only NiCd I know about are the AA sized ones.
Not fair to compare.  Perhaps a size size NiCd would be even better.
I don't know.

Got a reference, Google did not turn up much.  I'd expect that some
place there might be a table.

I've powered resonably large transmitters with a bank of golf cart
batteries.  Not because I needed the low noise but because this was on
a sail boat in the ocean.
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Bruce Griffiths

Lester Veenstra wrote:

The typical test supply on a bench for clean VCO testing is a small gel cell
battery.  For a regulated power supply, make one using a 723. The 723 has
far lower noise out than the monolithic regulators.

   

Depends on the variety of 723 some are noisier than others.
Some use an internal zener reference, some use a bandgap reference.
The original used a zener reference.

Bruce

Lester B Veenstra  MØYCM K1YCM W8YCM
les...@veenstras.com

US Postal Address:
5 Shrine Club Drive
HC84 Box 89C
Keyser WV 26726
GPS: 39.33675 N  78.9823527 W

Telephones:
Home: +1-304-289-6057
US cell+1-304-790-9192
UK cell+44-(0)7849-248-749
Guam Cell:  +1-671-929-8141
Jamaica: +1-876-456-8898
  
This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or

privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by
the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the
intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to
the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution
or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is
prohibited.



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:17 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?


I know this topic has been discussed in the past on the list, but a
colleague is asking if there are any off the shelf low noise power supplies
for testing oscillators.  Something a cut above an HP brick lab power
supply etc.  They are hoping to avoid having to homebrew a power
conditioning circuit.
Did we ever arrive at a concensus as to the state of the art in homebrew
power conditioning circuits?

Any help would be appreciated.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
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[time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Mark Sims

A123 20Ah LiFePO4 cells have an internal resistance in the milliohm range.  
Their M1 26650 format cells are around 8 milliohms.  Most high capacity (3000 
mAh) 18650 style lithium cells are around 10-15 milliohms.  
   
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[time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Arthur Dent
But the only NiCd I know about are the AA sized ones.

I have some of the wet NiCd batteries that are capable of 
putting out 200A continuously. I'm assuming the internal 
resistance is pretty low. ;-)

Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread WB6BNQ
YUP,

The C-130 aircraft uses larger than car battery size wet NiCd to fire up the
Genset that is used to start the Tubo-prop jet engines.  Definitely has lower
resistance then the Lead-Acid wet cell.

BillWB6BNQ

Arthur Dent wrote:

 But the only NiCd I know about are the AA sized ones.

 I have some of the wet NiCd batteries that are capable of
 putting out 200A continuously. I'm assuming the internal
 resistance is pretty low. ;-)

 Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread Tom Knox

Hi Rick;
Starting with a hp supply this finesse regulator will really clean up the 
output. http://www.wenzel.com/documents/finesse.html
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox


 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:16:46 -0800
 From: rich...@karlquist.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?
 
 
 I know this topic has been discussed in the past on the list, but
 a colleague is asking if there are any off the shelf low
 noise power supplies for testing oscillators.  Something
 a cut above an HP brick lab power supply etc.  They are hoping
 to avoid having to homebrew a power conditioning circuit.
 Did we ever arrive at a concensus as to the state of the art
 in homebrew power conditioning circuits?
 
 Any help would be appreciated.
 
 Rick Karlquist N6RK
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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and follow the instructions there.


[time-nuts] Low noise power supplies?

2013-01-30 Thread M. Simon
Rick,

I'm just finishing up some low noise supplies that use the TPSA49xx regulator. 
The AC input is a 12 AC wall wart and it uses zener/darlington pre-regulators. 
+5 and +3.3 V @ 150 ma each. I have the boards in hand and am ordering parts. 
The voltages are tweakable. i.e. 5.1V and 3.4V for instance. 


If this is of some interest I will be making the boards available once the 
design is tested. That will allow you to customize the voltages if you need 
something different. 


I also have a board on the way that includes the above two voltages and +/- 12V 
@ 150 ma.  The voltages are tweakable so you can get +5.1 V and 3.4V and 
+/-12.3 - for instance. 


If this is of some interest let me know and I'll push them along.  If you have 
questions - ask. 


I also have a LM1117 board that is good for 800 ma each @ +5 and +3.3. Not so 
quiet but more current. That one requires a 12.6V AC CT transformer. Of course 
you can use a higher input voltage but it will reduce the maximum current. That 
is tested and for sale now. You can also get different voltages by adjusting 
components. 


Schematics, parts lists, and ordering instructions: 


http://spacetimepro.blogspot.com/2012/10/power-up.html


Simon 

 



Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a 
profit.
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