Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Scott McGrath]

Ill see if I can dig up my manual for this used these units a few years ago

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2013, at 9:10 PM, Martin A Flynn  wrote:

> Scott,
> Can you point me at the appropriate documentation so I can default the unit?
> 
> Martin
> 
> On 2/22/2013 1:06 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>> Recommend doing a reset to default and configure as directed there are a lot 
>> of configurable options which can control access to this box
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Peter Gottlieb]

I think you have to ask what is the use that is going to be made of that 
number.  Do you want to know how well an old synchronous clock will keep time or 
do you want to know when there's been an (inductive) phase shift that signifies 
the loss of a transmission line?  Are you interested in how phase relates at 
various parts of the system (synchrophasors)?  How fast do you need to detect 
and how fast do you need to react (if that is your intent).  Or do you just want 
to log and make pretty graphs later?  You have to answer questions like this 
before you can say what is appropriate or not as a measurement means, and that's 
where this is heading, yes?



On 2/22/2013 11:21 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote:

Friends,

The grid contains a massive amount of inertia in the rotating
synchronous machinery that generates power. The 'springiness'
of the transmission lines allows local noise and even phase
noise that is caused by loads added to or dropped from the
line. Hal Murray (ICBW) had pictures of individual cycles
that were badly distorted by changing taps on distribution
transformers.

So it is not correct to measure one point to a gnat's nose
hair and call it "the grid frequency."

It might be more accurate to put a flywheel on a synchronous
motor and measure its speed, because the time constant of that
system is a whole lot closer to that of the real grid frequency.

Now, I understand that nobody build things like that any more,
so perhaps a mathematical model of such a system could be solved
by a computer that samples the line voltage at about 100 times
line frequency.

But perhaps I have misunderstood what you have been talking about.

Bill Hawkins

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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Bill Hawkins]

Friends,

The grid contains a massive amount of inertia in the rotating
synchronous machinery that generates power. The 'springiness'
of the transmission lines allows local noise and even phase
noise that is caused by loads added to or dropped from the
line. Hal Murray (ICBW) had pictures of individual cycles
that were badly distorted by changing taps on distribution
transformers.

So it is not correct to measure one point to a gnat's nose
hair and call it "the grid frequency."

It might be more accurate to put a flywheel on a synchronous
motor and measure its speed, because the time constant of that
system is a whole lot closer to that of the real grid frequency.

Now, I understand that nobody build things like that any more,
so perhaps a mathematical model of such a system could be solved
by a computer that samples the line voltage at about 100 times
line frequency.

But perhaps I have misunderstood what you have been talking about.

Bill Hawkins

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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Gabs Ricalde]

Hello,

I also don't have a Picotest or similar equipment but I've done similar
things by using the line input of a soundcard. Multiply the recorded
signal with a 60 Hz quadrature oscillator, apply a low pass filter then
do some analysis on the resulting phasor. The stability of the sound
card oscillator should be enough for this purpose.

You can measure the frequency difference w.r.t. the 60 Hz oscillator by
taking the slope of the phasor angle (be careful with phase wraparounds)
and you can do this as often as you like. I'm curious how this compares
with the zero crossing method.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Daniel Mendes  wrote:
>
> Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency (60Hz) to
> generate data for my work. I need to get data from every cycle. I setup
> their program (it always starts in chinese... very funny) but seems that it
> can only log every 100ms. Questions:
>
> 1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?
>
> 2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?
>
> Thanks for any help...
>
> Daniel
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Lizeth Norman]

Martin,
I don't think that I've ever seen a procedure in the man to reset it.
Do you have the protocol set properly for the various ports? Did you
try pinging at different speeds on startup? The docs suggest you
should get and ascii "?" as a prompt.

Can you:
log into the router and find out what ip address this device occupies?
Then ping that ip or open it with a browser?

Norm n3ykf



On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Martin A Flynn  wrote:
> Scott,
> Can you point me at the appropriate documentation so I can default the unit?
>
> Martin
>
> On 2/22/2013 1:06 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
>>
>> Recommend doing a reset to default and configure as directed there are a
>> lot of configurable options which can control access to this box
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Martin A Flynn]

Scott,
Can you point me at the appropriate documentation so I can default the unit?

Martin

On 2/22/2013 1:06 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:

Recommend doing a reset to default and configure as directed there are a lot of 
configurable options which can control access to this box


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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Bob Camp]

Hi

A lot depends on what the real objective is. Is the loop supposed to transfer 
all of the 60 Hz bumps and wiggles (wide band loop) or is it supposed to ignore 
them (narrow band loop) ? Given that the starting point is 60 Hz wide and 
narrow will be relative to that. 

Bob

On Feb 22, 2013, at 7:44 PM, David  wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:16:37 -0800, "Tom Van Baak"
>  wrote:
> 
>>> There is a lot of noise on the line.  I'm not sure if frequency makes sense 
>>> on a cycle to cycle basis.
>> 
>> Hal, it might make sense since the OP is designing a PLL and wants to get a 
>> feel for (short-term) frequency excursions. I would guess the whole point of 
>> his experiment is to quantify this; not just say there is "a lot" or "not 
>> much" noise over some number N of cycles.
>> 
>> So that's why I posted the ADEV plot, which itself was based on timing every 
>> zero-crossing (using a time-stamping counter, not a frequency counter).
> 
> I have been thinking about this problem on and off all day and would
> probably add a sampling phase detector driven by the output of the PLL
> or just use a sampling phase detector in the PLL loop.  The sampling
> time can be adjusted independently of the PLL filtering within reason
> for whatever level of noise rejection in the measurement is desired.
> 
> That would return the phase error on every cycle or even every half
> cycle.
> 
> The whole thing of course could be implemented digitally but I like
> programming in solder.
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[David]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:16:37 -0800, "Tom Van Baak"
 wrote:

>> There is a lot of noise on the line.  I'm not sure if frequency makes sense 
>> on a cycle to cycle basis.
>
>Hal, it might make sense since the OP is designing a PLL and wants to get a 
>feel for (short-term) frequency excursions. I would guess the whole point of 
>his experiment is to quantify this; not just say there is "a lot" or "not 
>much" noise over some number N of cycles.
>
>So that's why I posted the ADEV plot, which itself was based on timing every 
>zero-crossing (using a time-stamping counter, not a frequency counter).

I have been thinking about this problem on and off all day and would
probably add a sampling phase detector driven by the output of the PLL
or just use a sampling phase detector in the PLL loop.  The sampling
time can be adjusted independently of the PLL filtering within reason
for whatever level of noise rejection in the measurement is desired.

That would return the phase error on every cycle or even every half
cycle.

The whole thing of course could be implemented digitally but I like
programming in solder.
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB

[Bob Camp]

Hi

So far my Casio wrist watch is perfectly happy with the new WWVB modulation 
scheme.

Bob

On Feb 22, 2013, at 7:08 PM, "Tom Miller"  wrote:

> Just for another data point. I have a new LaCrosse digital clock that uses 
> the 60kHz WWVB signal to keep time. It is the model WT-8005U-B, shown here. 
> http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/8005b/index.php  It has at least three 
> times in the last two months jumped time. Twice by an hour and once by 6 
> hours. It corrects after midnight.
> 
> Not very reliable if you ask me.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - From: "paul swed" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 6:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB
> 
> 
> Donald from what I have been seeing they are consistent. But there is a 1
> hour period up around 1 or 2 pm est that they go back to the old modulation
> and that allows time clocks to lock. At least thats what the spectracom
> 8170 does. Then it says its locked for a very long time even though it
> isn't.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Donald Henderickx
> wrote:
> 
>> Is wwvb consistent in the testing of there modulation scheme?I find that
>> My Spectracom 8182  will stay in time sync for several days,and then loose
>> it for five or six hours. Is any one else experiencing this?
>> I am thinking of trying my kinemetrics/truetime 60-TF to see if it might
>> function.
>> Don Henderickx
>> __**_
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB

[Tom Miller]

Just for another data point. I have a new LaCrosse digital clock that uses 
the 60kHz WWVB signal to keep time. It is the model WT-8005U-B, shown here. 
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/8005b/index.php  It has at least three 
times in the last two months jumped time. Twice by an hour and once by 6 
hours. It corrects after midnight.


Not very reliable if you ask me.

Regards,
Tom




- Original Message - 
From: "paul swed" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB


Donald from what I have been seeing they are consistent. But there is a 1
hour period up around 1 or 2 pm est that they go back to the old modulation
and that allows time clocks to lock. At least thats what the spectracom
8170 does. Then it says its locked for a very long time even though it
isn't.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Donald Henderickx
wrote:


Is wwvb consistent in the testing of there modulation scheme?I find that
My Spectracom 8182  will stay in time sync for several days,and then loose
it for five or six hours. Is any one else experiencing this?
I am thinking of trying my kinemetrics/truetime 60-TF to see if it might
function.
Don Henderickx
__**_
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mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

[James Tucker]

Don;
Yes, that seemed to be where I was headed, too. Thanks for responding.
JimT

Sent from *my* galaxy (Nexus).
On Feb 21, 2013 9:26 PM, "Don Latham"  wrote:

> Hi Jim: I had to make up a little 3-pin to 9-pin adapter using loose
> pins. It just kinda hangs there...
> Don
>
> James Tucker
> > Don;
> > I got one of those switchs;*very* nice product, great price. Wish I'd
> > bought two!
> > Do you have a reference for the mating connector for the RS232 by any
> > chance?
> >
> > JimT
> >
> > Sent from *my* galaxy (Nexus).
> > On Feb 21, 2013 4:13 PM, "Don Latham"  wrote:
> >
> >> I don't have the manual source offhand, but it will be in my msg
> >> archived. The RS232 does respond, and can also be used to control the
> >> unit I have. I got a nice note from the seller; apparently the
> >> time-nuts
> >> snatched these units up in less than a day...and it was the seller who
> >> put me on to the manual, a typical Google got me nothing. I'll be home
> >> next week, and can supply the manual URL then if you can't find it.
> >> Don
> >>
> >> Robert LaJeunesse
> >> > I've been known to just stack a 150 Ohm 1% chip resistor on top of a
> >> 75
> >> > Ohm chip
> >> > resistor to bring the result down to 50 Ohms. Beats having to 1)
> >> remove
> >> > the old
> >> > part, 2) clean up the pads, then 3) get the new one soldered down.
> >> >
> >> > Bob L.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > From: Arthur Dent 
> >> > To: "time-nuts@febo.com" 
> >> > Sent: Thu, February 21, 2013 4:13:48 PM
> >> > Subject: [time-nuts] altinex switches
> >> >
> >> > ... it should be easy to switch it to 50 ohms although it may not
> >> make
> >> > any real
> >> > difference.
> >> > ___
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> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> >> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> >> Ghost in the Shell
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
> >> POB 134
> >> Huson, MT, 59846
> >> VOX 406-626-4304
> >> www.lightningforensics.com
> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Tom Van Baak]

Bob,

You're right that conventional period, frequency, or universal counters have 
great difficulty measuring (timing) separate events that occur as fast as 60 
Hz. A fine exception is the Pendulum CNT-90/91 which is a time-stamping 
universal counter. With a few simple GPIB commands, you get data on every 
rising/falling edge of an input signal. The resolution is 50 ps and the capture 
rate is 250k sps.

If anyone has been able to collect zero-deadtime per-cycle timing using, say, a 
HP 5370 or 53132 or SR620 I would be interested to know it was done. It might 
actually be possible, but I've not tried hard enough. The HP 5372A is another 
possibility.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 

Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency


Hi

Don't have a Picotest, but do have similar counters. It's very common for
them to do what looks like a divide of the input frequency before they
measure it. The net result is that you can't measure 60 Hz in 1/60th of a
second. You measure it in 4/60th's of a second instead.

The next problem you will run into is that the counter takes time to arm.
Even if it did the measure in 1/60th of a second, you would only get every
other cycle. 

One way to get every cycle is to measure time rather than frequency. You
time tag every positive zero crossing and then do the math to get frequency.
If you drive one input with a fixed 60 Hz square wave and put the line into
the other input you can get the time offset between them.  

Another approach is to use two conventional period counters and let them
each measure a cycle. One measures while the other is dumping data and
re-arming. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Daniel Mendes
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 7:47 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency


Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency 
(60Hz) to generate data for my work. I need to get data from every 
cycle. I setup their program (it always starts in chinese... very funny) 
but seems that it can only log every 100ms. Questions:

1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?

2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?

Thanks for any help...

Daniel



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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Tom Van Baak]

> There is a lot of noise on the line.  I'm not sure if frequency makes sense 
> on a cycle to cycle basis.

Hal, it might make sense since the OP is designing a PLL and wants to get a 
feel for (short-term) frequency excursions. I would guess the whole point of 
his experiment is to quantify this; not just say there is "a lot" or "not much" 
noise over some number N of cycles.

So that's why I posted the ADEV plot, which itself was based on timing every 
zero-crossing (using a time-stamping counter, not a frequency counter).

> Two suggestions:
>
> With a transformer and a few resistors, you can feed the line into the audio 
> input on a PC.  Then you can search for zero crossings, run it through a 
> filter, feed it to a FFT...
>
> You can also feed the line into a modem control signal on a PC serial port.  
> (USB probably won't work.)  The PPS logic from NTP will count cycles and 
> record a timestamp on the last one.

For those of you using plain old Windows instead of NTP/PPS/Linux I have a DCD 
pin serial port time-stamping tool which works pretty well (on an idle system) 
to measure every cycle, 60 lines per second:
http://leapsecond.com/tools/pctsc.c
http://leapsecond.com/tools/pctsc.exe
Since the DCD pin is bipolar by design one can connect the secondary of, say, a 
6 or 9 or 12 VAC wall transformer directly to pins 1 and 5. Use a 1k resistor 
if you're paranoid. It works fine with direct COM ports or USB/serial adapters.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB

[paul swed]

Donald from what I have been seeing they are consistent. But there is a 1
hour period up around 1 or 2 pm est that they go back to the old modulation
and that allows time clocks to lock. At least thats what the spectracom
8170 does. Then it says its locked for a very long time even though it
isn't.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Donald Henderickx
wrote:

> Is wwvb consistent in the testing of there modulation scheme?I find that
> My Spectracom 8182  will stay in time sync for several days,and then loose
> it for five or six hours. Is any one else experiencing this?
> I am thinking of trying my kinemetrics/truetime 60-TF to see if it might
> function.
> Don Henderickx
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Chris Albertson]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
>


> You can also feed the line into a modem control signal on a PC serial port.
> (USB probably won't work.)  The PPS logic from NTP will count cycles and
> record a timestamp on the last one.

Yes RS-232 wants a signal that is about +/- 9 volts. so if you are
very brave all you need is a 15:1 voltage divider on the AC to scale
it.  However it is smarter to use a transformer. Some others who
are even more conservative were using an optocoupler between the AC
mains and the PC's serial port. But I think the transformer provides
good enough isolation.


>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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[time-nuts] WWVB

[Donald Henderickx]

Is wwvb consistent in the testing of there modulation scheme?I find that 
My Spectracom 8182  will stay in time sync for several days,and then 
loose it for five or six hours. Is any one else experiencing this?
I am thinking of trying my kinemetrics/truetime 60-TF to see if it might 
function.

Don Henderickx
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Chris Albertson]

People have measured AC mains period (and hence frequency) with very
simple devices.  The best is just an AC plug-in power cube and a diode
to square the sine wave then this is connected directly to a DCD input
on a serial port.  The Linix PPS driver will time tage each pulse with
a nanosecond timer that is good really only to about two microseconds.
  This is better than good enough.   All you need is a computer and a
few bucks worth of parts.

Here is one setup using DCD as the sensor
http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains.html

The newels PPS software will do the logging now.  What you are left
with is a file that lists the time of each zero crossing.  You get 60
new lines of text every second.



-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Hal Murray]

dmend...@gmail.com said:
> No, just designing a very wicked PLL and needing statistics of the
> frequency derivative... No generator is involved, it´s mains frequency  (but
> you gave me another idea... thanks!).

There is a lot of noise on the line.  I'm not sure if frequency makes sense 
on a cycle to cycle basis.

Two suggestions:

With a transformer and a few resistors, you can feed the line into the audio 
input on a PC.  Then you can search for zero crossings, run it through a 
filter, feed it to a FFT...

You can also feed the line into a modem control signal on a PC serial port.  
(USB probably won't work.)  The PPS logic from NTP will count cycles and 
record a timestamp on the last one.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Scott McGrath]

Recommend doing a reset to default and configure as directed there are a lot of 
configurable options which can control access to this box

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2013, at 7:22 AM, Martin A Flynn  wrote:

> On 2/21/2013 10:16 PM, Mike S wrote:
>> On 2/21/2013 10:05 PM, Martin A Flynn wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>> I picked up a used TS-2100L for use at a local technology museum. Unit
>>> powers up, locks, and syncs. (all three front panel LED are green)
>>> 
>>> Using wire shark I can see traffic to the device on 192.168.56.99,
>>> however I can't connect to the management page.
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions on how to proceed?
>> 
>> Obvious questions - Can you ping it? Did you configure your PC to be on the 
>> same subnet (192.168.56.0/24)? Have you tried connecting to the serial 
>> console?
> PC on same subnet.  Tried factory-assembled straight and crossover serial 
> cables, it will not connect  to serial port  "B".  I won't rule out the 
> cables being pinned wrong.
> 
> Martin
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Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

[Tom Miller]

Actually max power is around 30 ohms. Fifty ohms was a compromise.

Here is a good paper on coax design.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=coax%20max%20power%20impedance&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmy.ece.ucsb.edu%2FYork%2FBobsclass%2F144A%2FHandouts%2FWhy50ohm.pdf&ei=3JwnUcb0MdDy0wHJxoDQDw&usg=AFQjCNH-RX8ULC4nXT7lAs2qgQlYIy-HBQ

Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches


Hi

Using common WWII coax materials, 75 ohms is roughly the minimum loss per
foot design. 50 ohms is the maximum power handling design. The low loss /
high power duality is what still has us matching transmitters into 50 ohms
and running cable TV at 75 ohms.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:40 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

Hi Robert,

The only way it would make sense to make the center pin diameter
smaller on a 75 ohm BNC is if the center section of the connector
has dielectric in it.  So, I would venture then that if you find a
75 ohm BNC that has dielectric in the mating area, around the pin,
it will be a problem.

The original coax illustrates this action.  Some of the earliest
commercial coax was air insulated, and had optimally sized center
and shield diameters for low loss power transmission.  Which results
in 75 ohm impedance.  It was a dodgy affair, as it had very thin
lucite disks every foot, or so, that kept the center conductor
centered in the shield.  This worked ok for rigid coax, and even
semi-rigid coax where large radius arcs, over long runs, are
possible... like on an antenna tower, or a intercontinental under
sea telephone trunk cable...

At some point, it became desirable to make short flexible runs of
coax, WWII as I recall, and the disk scheme wasn't optimal, so the
coax was entirely filled with polyethylene plastic, and because of
the dielectric constant of the polyethylene, the 75 ohm air
dielectric impedance dropped to 50 ohm.  The loss went way up, but
flexibility trumped loss in short pigtails for interconnecting cables,
and 50 ohm became popular RG-8 coax was born.

-Chuck Harris

Robert Atkinson wrote:

Hi Chuck, some early 75R BNC designs did use a smaller diameter center

contact.

The 75R male can make intermittent contact when used with a worn or top of

limit

50R female. The 75R female can be damaged for use with the small contact

male if

used with a 50R or large contact 75R male. The do exist, but are pretty

rare. A

lot got changed out as faulty. I've not seen one on any modern (last 20

years)

equipment.

Robert G8RPI.


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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Daniel Mendes]

No, just designing a very wicked PLL and needing statistics of the 
frequency derivative... No generator is involved, it´s mains frequency 
(but you gave me another idea... thanks!).


Daniel

Em 22/02/2013 11:53, Chuck Harris escreveu:

Curiosity makes me wonder why you want to measure cycle-by-cycle
variations in the generator frequency.

Are you looking for cycle swing when the load changes?

Or is it a matter of wanting to because you should be able to?
Which, of course, is a great reason for doing all sorts of things!

-Chuck Harris

Daniel Mendes wrote:


Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency 
(60Hz) to generate
data for my work. I need to get data from every cycle. I setup their 
program (it
always starts in chinese... very funny) but seems that it can only 
log every 100ms.

Questions:

1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?

2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?

Thanks for any help...

Daniel


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Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Using common WWII coax materials, 75 ohms is roughly the minimum loss per
foot design. 50 ohms is the maximum power handling design. The low loss /
high power duality is what still has us matching transmitters into 50 ohms
and running cable TV at 75 ohms. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 9:40 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

Hi Robert,

The only way it would make sense to make the center pin diameter
smaller on a 75 ohm BNC is if the center section of the connector
has dielectric in it.  So, I would venture then that if you find a
75 ohm BNC that has dielectric in the mating area, around the pin,
it will be a problem.

The original coax illustrates this action.  Some of the earliest
commercial coax was air insulated, and had optimally sized center
and shield diameters for low loss power transmission.  Which results
in 75 ohm impedance.  It was a dodgy affair, as it had very thin
lucite disks every foot, or so, that kept the center conductor
centered in the shield.  This worked ok for rigid coax, and even
semi-rigid coax where large radius arcs, over long runs, are
possible... like on an antenna tower, or a intercontinental under
sea telephone trunk cable...

At some point, it became desirable to make short flexible runs of
coax, WWII as I recall, and the disk scheme wasn't optimal, so the
coax was entirely filled with polyethylene plastic, and because of
the dielectric constant of the polyethylene, the 75 ohm air
dielectric impedance dropped to 50 ohm.  The loss went way up, but
flexibility trumped loss in short pigtails for interconnecting cables,
and 50 ohm became popular RG-8 coax was born.

-Chuck Harris

Robert Atkinson wrote:
> Hi Chuck, some early 75R BNC designs did use a smaller diameter center
contact.
> The 75R male can make intermittent contact when used with a worn or top of
limit
> 50R female. The 75R female can be damaged for use with the small contact
male if
> used with a 50R or large contact 75R male. The do exist, but are pretty
rare. A
> lot got changed out as faulty. I've not seen one on any modern (last 20
years)
> equipment.
>
> Robert G8RPI.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Chuck Harris]

Curiosity makes me wonder why you want to measure cycle-by-cycle
variations in the generator frequency.

Are you looking for cycle swing when the load changes?

Or is it a matter of wanting to because you should be able to?
Which, of course, is a great reason for doing all sorts of things!

-Chuck Harris

Daniel Mendes wrote:


Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency (60Hz) to 
generate
data for my work. I need to get data from every cycle. I setup their program (it
always starts in chinese... very funny) but seems that it can only log every 
100ms.
Questions:

1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?

2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?

Thanks for any help...

Daniel


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Re: [time-nuts] altinex switches

[Chuck Harris]

Hi Robert,

The only way it would make sense to make the center pin diameter
smaller on a 75 ohm BNC is if the center section of the connector
has dielectric in it.  So, I would venture then that if you find a
75 ohm BNC that has dielectric in the mating area, around the pin,
it will be a problem.

The original coax illustrates this action.  Some of the earliest
commercial coax was air insulated, and had optimally sized center
and shield diameters for low loss power transmission.  Which results
in 75 ohm impedance.  It was a dodgy affair, as it had very thin
lucite disks every foot, or so, that kept the center conductor
centered in the shield.  This worked ok for rigid coax, and even
semi-rigid coax where large radius arcs, over long runs, are
possible... like on an antenna tower, or a intercontinental under
sea telephone trunk cable...

At some point, it became desirable to make short flexible runs of
coax, WWII as I recall, and the disk scheme wasn't optimal, so the
coax was entirely filled with polyethylene plastic, and because of
the dielectric constant of the polyethylene, the 75 ohm air
dielectric impedance dropped to 50 ohm.  The loss went way up, but
flexibility trumped loss in short pigtails for interconnecting cables,
and 50 ohm became popular RG-8 coax was born.

-Chuck Harris

Robert Atkinson wrote:

Hi Chuck, some early 75R BNC designs did use a smaller diameter center contact.
The 75R male can make intermittent contact when used with a worn or top of limit
50R female. The 75R female can be damaged for use with the small contact male if
used with a 50R or large contact 75R male. The do exist, but are pretty rare. A
lot got changed out as faulty. I've not seen one on any modern (last 20 years)
equipment.

Robert G8RPI.


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Re: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Don't have a Picotest, but do have similar counters. It's very common for
them to do what looks like a divide of the input frequency before they
measure it. The net result is that you can't measure 60 Hz in 1/60th of a
second. You measure it in 4/60th's of a second instead.

The next problem you will run into is that the counter takes time to arm.
Even if it did the measure in 1/60th of a second, you would only get every
other cycle. 

One way to get every cycle is to measure time rather than frequency. You
time tag every positive zero crossing and then do the math to get frequency.
If you drive one input with a fixed 60 Hz square wave and put the line into
the other input you can get the time offset between them.  

Another approach is to use two conventional period counters and let them
each measure a cycle. One measures while the other is dumping data and
re-arming. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Daniel Mendes
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 7:47 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency


Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency 
(60Hz) to generate data for my work. I need to get data from every 
cycle. I setup their program (it always starts in chinese... very funny) 
but seems that it can only log every 100ms. Questions:

1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?

2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?

Thanks for any help...

Daniel


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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Martin A Flynn]

On 2/21/2013 10:16 PM, Mike S wrote:

On 2/21/2013 10:05 PM, Martin A Flynn wrote:

Hi folks,
I picked up a used TS-2100L for use at a local technology museum. Unit
powers up, locks, and syncs. (all three front panel LED are green)

Using wire shark I can see traffic to the device on 192.168.56.99,
however I can't connect to the management page.

Any suggestions on how to proceed?


Obvious questions - Can you ping it? Did you configure your PC to be 
on the same subnet (192.168.56.0/24)? Have you tried connecting to the 
serial console?
PC on same subnet.  Tried factory-assembled straight and crossover 
serial cables, it will not connect  to serial port  "B".  I won't rule 
out the cables being pinned wrong.


Martin
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[time-nuts] Logging the grid frequency....

[Daniel Mendes]

Hi, I have a Picotest U6200A. I´m trying to log the grid frequency 
(60Hz) to generate data for my work. I need to get data from every 
cycle. I setup their program (it always starts in chinese... very funny) 
but seems that it can only log every 100ms. Questions:


1) Is that a limitation of the equipment or the software?

2) Using direct comands, can I get data faster?

Thanks for any help...

Daniel


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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Lizeth Norman]

Martin,
You're left with telnet and rs-232. The docs available on the net seem
to indicate it's more trouble to build the cable than to do the
programming.
Norm n3ykf

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Martin A Flynn  wrote:
> This is the low-budget version without the front panel display (TS2100L)
>
>
> On 2/21/2013 11:03 PM, Lizeth Norman wrote:
>>
>> Use the buttons on the front panel to drill down into the setup menu
>> and find the dhcp setting.
>> Have fun
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Martin A Flynn 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>> I picked up a used TS-2100L for use at a local technology museum. Unit
>>> powers up, locks, and syncs. (all three front panel LED are green)
>>>
>>> Using wire shark I can see traffic to the device on 192.168.56.99,
>>> however I
>>> can't connect to the management page.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions on how to proceed?
>>>
>>> Martin Flynn
>>> __
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[Martin A Flynn]

This is the low-budget version without the front panel display (TS2100L)

On 2/21/2013 11:03 PM, Lizeth Norman wrote:

Use the buttons on the front panel to drill down into the setup menu
and find the dhcp setting.
Have fun

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Martin A Flynn  wrote:

Hi folks,
I picked up a used TS-2100L for use at a local technology museum. Unit
powers up, locks, and syncs. (all three front panel LED are green)

Using wire shark I can see traffic to the device on 192.168.56.99, however I
can't connect to the management page.

Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Martin Flynn
__


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Re: [time-nuts] Hello and new Project

[gary]

Do you have a manual?

http://www.marubun.co.jp/product/network/ntp/qgc18e010oqg-att/TS2100_2.pdf

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