Re: [time-nuts] The first FMT

[ken johnson]

Joe, I have placed the two .pdf's permanently on one of my web pages:-

http://www.vk7krj.com/ham_stuff.htm



Ken, vk7krj
www.vk7krj.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Still looking for datasheet for Trimble 34310-T

[Bob Camp]

Hi

According to the Nortel GSBW50AA spec on the Trimble GPSTM (page 26),  T was 
used for Tekelec DOC-1903 OCXO's.

Bob
On Jun 21, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I found an old post that indicated that it is a relabeled Vectron OC-050.  
> Can anyone verify that?  I've gotten most of the parts for my VE2ZAZ GPSDO, 
> and am now trying to lay out how it's all going into the HP 37203A box.  
> 
> Bob - AE6RV
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

[Mark C. Stephens]

To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer, 
Its documented in the FE5680A technical manual.

After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
doing my head in I came across this site:
http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/

Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.


-marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Mark C. Stephens
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 months 
ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.

I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.

Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with the 
rubidium:
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe


Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
[F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...
Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC

Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd 0x29 
ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
[30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
2000.00.
Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00

Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 0x2D 
ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
ASCII (.): # .
Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #

Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII 
(.): W.
Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W

Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
[00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] [52] 
[00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] [00] [6F] 
[00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] [87] [00] [8B] 
[00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
 
/.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...
Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }

Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
[FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] [D4] 
[FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] [00] [16] 
[00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] [29] [00] [48] 
[00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
 
l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.
Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F

Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
[36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.
Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6

Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
[3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.
Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439

Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd 0x65 
ASCII (.):  .
Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
ASCII (.): ...
Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..
Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4

However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem to 
work.

I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.

Any hints graciously received with thanks :)


-marki
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remodulator for the Spectracom 8170...

[paul swed]

Trying to catch up on several hundred work emails. Not exciting.
I absolutely agree that the 60002 would make a lot of sense.


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 1:19 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Paul,
>
> This is probably why they sell crystals cut for 60,002 kHz and 60,005 kHz.
>  I ordered 10 of the 60,000 kHz crystals from DigiKey for about a buck
> each.  The 60,002 and 60,005 crystals were only available in lots of a
> bazillion.  It sounds like when I build the oscillator portion of the
> remodulator I may to have to play a wee bit to get the new carrier within
> tolerance of what the 8170 wants to see.
>
> Sorry to hear you've been fighting a flu bug.  A lot of folks I know have
> recently gone through a bought of the flu.  I had it for a week but it was
> mild compared to what some folks I know went through.  I hope you're
> feeling 100% real soon.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
> At 09:26 PM 6/21/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
>
>> Hello to the group
>> Very good thread. I am recovering from a severe flu. Thats wgy I have not
>> been around.
>> This will be brief.
>> 1Hz off seems to cause an issue.
>> The 60 khz xtals from mouser all seem to always be low.
>> So by lowering the drive and I assume loading. The 20K resistor they come
>> into range.
>> Don't like this and ordered a few xtals from china. Oh lets say 50.
>> Nothing says a 6 mhz xtal and divider can't work. Just adds complexity and
>> cost.
>> By the way the MAS 6180 is available but the distro wants an order of 50
>> at
>> $4 each.
>> I can't take on the role of purchasing and distributing the chips.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>>
>>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> __**_
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.

[Tom Miller]

MSE reports the two .exe files as unsafe and contains a virus. Does anyone 
else see the same thing?


Regards

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark C. Stephens" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands 
don'twork.



To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer,
Its documented in the FE5680A technical manual.

After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
doing my head in I came across this site:

http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/

Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.


-marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens

Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 
months ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.


I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.

Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with 
the rubidium:
C:\Documents and 
Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe



Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
[F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...

Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC

Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd 
0x29 ASCII (.): 

Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
[30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
2000.00.

Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00

Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 
0x2D ASCII (.): 

Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
ASCII (.): # .

Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #

Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII 
(.): W.

Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W

Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
[00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] 
[52] [00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] 
[00] [6F] [00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] 
[87] [00] [8B] [00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
/.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...

Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }

Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
[FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] 
[D4] [FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] 
[00] [16] [00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] 
[29] [00] [48] [00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.

Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F

Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
[36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.

Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6

Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
[3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.

Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439

Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd 
0x65 ASCII (.):  .

Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
ASCII (.): ...

Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..

Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4

However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem 
to work.


I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.


Any hints graciously received with thanks :)


-marki
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Re: [time-nuts] Still looking for datasheet for Trimble 34310-T

[Bob Stewart]

Hi Bob and thanks for the feedback.  Unfortunately, the only search hits I get 
for Tekelec DOC-1903 are timenuts posts about the GSTM document and the GSTM 
document, itself.  But I did track down the Oak 4895 which should be similar.  
In any case, I have enough information to put this together, already.  I was 
just looking for more.  =)


Bob - AE6RV



- Original Message -
> From: Bob Camp 
> To: Bob Stewart ; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
> measurement 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 7:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Still looking for datasheet for Trimble 34310-T
> 
> Hi
> 
> According to the Nortel GSBW50AA spec on the Trimble GPSTM (page 26),  T was 
> used for Tekelec DOC-1903 OCXO's.
> 
> Bob
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bob Stewart  wrote:
> 
>>  I found an old post that indicated that it is a relabeled Vectron OC-050.  
> Can anyone verify that?  I've gotten most of the parts for my VE2ZAZ GPSDO, 
> and am now trying to lay out how it's all going into the HP 37203A box.  
>> 
>>  Bob - AE6RV
>>  ___
>>  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation...

[Joseph Gray]

Burt,

Thanks for the information. I thought that the tolerance was supposed to
100 Hz, as You said. As far as I know, this is the original crystal that
came with the rig when NMSU bought it. I will spend more time working with
the rig this weekend.

I am looking for a solid state LPB transmitter, if you are interested in
selling yours. I have just worked out a trade to another Amateur for a
carrier current line coupler.

Joe Gray
W5JG



On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:47 PM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:

> Joe,
>
> As was mentioned earlier, U.S. AM broadcast tolerance is +/- 20 Hz.  Many
> of the LPB low power transmitter were used for TIS/HAR service.  The
> tolerance for that service is +/- 100 Hz.  I've maintained several of these
> stations, including the 100 watt system on 530 kHz at LAX Airport.  The
> transmitters were made by LPB, were all solid state, and stayed within 5 Hz
> for years without any adjustment.  It's been a real long time since I
> worked on any of the tube version of these, but >200 Hz sounds like
> something has gone wrong.  It may be a defective crystal or some component
> in the oscillator circuit.  To your knowledge, is the crystal that's off
> frequency a LPB supplied crystal?  The LPB's were also used for broadcast
> transmitters, particularly at daytime stations that had very low power
> nighttime authorization.  Used that way they had to maintain their
> frequency within the +/- 20 Hz tolerance, which was never a problem with a
> good crystal.  They are actually pretty good transmitters and are capable
> of 125% positive peak while keeping the negative peaks at 95% or less when
> driven with a real audio processor.  I have one of the 30 watt solid state
> transmitters and one exciter board.  I also have one that is an amplifier
> only that I'm able to drive to about 15 watts out with my bridge generator.
>
> LPB went out of business a few years ago and left a lot of customers who
> had pre-paid for their equipment holding the bag.  I was one of them.  It's
> a shame because they really are good transmitters.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
> At 09:26 PM 6/21/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
>
>> >> I have an old AM transmitter that has three 6AL11 compactrons. The
>> crystal
>> >> is a fundamental, cut for 660 KHz. I don't have a schematic for this
>> thing,
>> >> but I believe that one half of one 6AL11 is used for the oscillator.
>> >>
>> >> The problem is, the frequency decreases as the rig warms up. It will
>> >> eventually stabilize, but the final frequency is over 200 Hz low. Not
>> as
>> >> good as it should be. I think the original specification was well under
>> >> half of that.
>> >>
>> >> I have replaced the electrolytic caps. The others are mostly
>> silver/mica
>> >> with a few ceramics. I checked all of the resistors and only found one
>> that
>> >> was out of tolerance (I replaced it).Three NOS tubes were installed.
>> There
>> >> are no tunable components in the oscillator section. Only the output
>> >> section has anything tunable.
>> >>
>> >> I know that there are many Amateurs on the list and I'm sure many know
>> more
>> >> about old tube rigs than I do. Does anyone have a suggestion as to
>> what the
>> >> trouble might be?
>> >>
>> >> Joe Gray
>> >> W5JG
>>
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> b...@att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> __**_
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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[time-nuts] How standards have changed

[Joseph Gray]

Another one, rejected for attachment size.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19599147/QST%20May%201930.jpg


A comment was made about how things have changed over the years regarding
frequency accuracy. I am currently going through a scanned set of QST
magazines that I borrowed and came across an interesting announcement (note
the date). The magazine is scanned to TIFF files, so I did a screen clip of
the relevant article. It is attached.

Joe Gray
W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.

[mike cook]

Nothing from Win7+latest Bitdefender update.


Le 22 juin 2013 à 16:12, Tom Miller a écrit :

> MSE reports the two .exe files as unsafe and contains a virus. Does anyone 
> else see the same thing?
> 
> Regards
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Mark C. Stephens" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands 
> don'twork.
> 
> 
> To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer,
> Its documented in the FE5680A technical manual.
> 
> After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
> doing my head in I came across this site:
> http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/
> 
> Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.
> 
> 
> -marki
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of Mark C. Stephens
> Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.
> 
> I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 months 
> ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.
> 
> I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.
> 
> Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with 
> the rubidium:
> C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe
> 
> 
> Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
> [F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...
> Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC
> 
> Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd 
> 0x29 ASCII (.): 
> Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
> [30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
> 2000.00.
> Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00
> 
> Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 
> 0x2D ASCII (.): 
> Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
> ASCII (.): # .
> Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #
> 
> Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII 
> (.): W.
> Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W
> 
> Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
> [00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] 
> [52] [00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] 
> [00] [6F] [00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] 
> [87] [00] [8B] [00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
> /.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...
> Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }
> 
> Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
> [FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] 
> [D4] [FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] 
> [00] [16] [00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] 
> [29] [00] [48] [00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
> [E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
> l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.
> Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F
> 
> Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
> [36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.
> Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6
> 
> Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
> [3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.
> Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439
> 
> Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd 
> 0x65 ASCII (.):  .
> Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
> ASCII (.): ...
> Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):
> 
> Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
> [00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..
> Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4
> 
> However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem to 
> work.
> 
> I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
> trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.
> 
> Any hints graciously received with thanks :)
> 
> 
> -marki
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.

[Mark C. Stephens]

No report from MSE here, and they all work as expected.

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Tom Miller
Sent: Sunday, 23 June 2013 12:12 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.

MSE reports the two .exe files as unsafe and contains a virus. Does anyone else 
see the same thing?

Regards

- Original Message -
From: "Mark C. Stephens" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 

Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don'twork.


To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer, Its 
documented in the FE5680A technical manual.

After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
doing my head in I came across this site:
http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/

Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.


-marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Mark C. Stephens
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 months 
ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.

I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.

Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with the 
rubidium:
C:\Documents and
Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe


Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
[F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...
Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC

Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd
0x29 ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
[30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
2000.00.
Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00

Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 0x2D 
ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
ASCII (.): # .
Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #

Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII
(.): W.
Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W

Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
[00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] [52] 
[00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] [00] [6F] 
[00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] [87] [00] [8B] 
[00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
/.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...
Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }

Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
[FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] [D4] 
[FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] [00] [16] 
[00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] [29] [00] [48] 
[00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.
Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F

Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
[36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.
Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6

Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
[3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.
Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439

Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd
0x65 ASCII (.):  .
Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
ASCII (.): ...
Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..
Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4

However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem to 
work.

I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.

Any hints graciously received with thanks :)


-marki
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Didier Juges]

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)

Didier 


Joseph Gray  wrote:

>>Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.
>
>Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)
>
>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
>this
>rig and see what works.
>
>Joe Gray
>W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Max Robinson]

Why set such puny goals.  How about a smart phone with tubes.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O DS.

- Original Message - 
From: "Didier Juges" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation



A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)

Didier


Joseph Gray  wrote:


Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.


Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
this
rig and see what works.

Joe Gray
W5JG
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things.

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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[DaveH]

If anyone can do it, it would be these people:

http://www.ominous-valve.com/tour.html

Home page:

http://www.ominous-valve.com/index.html

Dave 

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Max Robinson
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:43
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation
> 
> Why set such puny goals.  How about a smart phone with tubes.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Max.  K 4 O DS.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Didier Juges" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation
> 
> 
> >A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)
> >
> > Didier
> >
> >
> > Joseph Gray  wrote:
> >
> >>>Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.
> >>
> >>Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)
> >>
> >>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
> >>this
> >>rig and see what works.
> >>
> >>Joe Gray
> >>W5JG
> >>___
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> >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > -- 
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> while I do other 
> > things.
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/22/2013 05:27 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)


The the correlation channel(s) would be possible to do in tubes.
The rest of the processing is "problematic".

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Hal Murray]

mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
> On 06/22/2013 05:27 PM, Didier Juges wrote:
>> A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)
> The the correlation channel(s) would be possible to do in tubes. The rest of
> the processing is "problematic". 

The IBM 709 was tubes.  (Well, mostly, they used transistors on the front end 
of the memory.)  Memory was 32K 36 bit words.  Call it 128K bytes.  That 
might be enough.

It had a cycle time of 12 microseconds.  12 ns would be 1000x as fast.  
That's 80 MHz, a reasonable speed for an ARM.  So the CPU in today's GPS 
systems is 300x to 1000x faster than the 709.

Anybody know what fraction of an ARM it takes to do the GPS calculations?

Do you have to keep up, or can you do the calculations for every N-th second?


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/22/2013 11:10 PM, Hal Murray wrote:


mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:

On 06/22/2013 05:27 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)

The the correlation channel(s) would be possible to do in tubes. The rest of
the processing is "problematic".


The IBM 709 was tubes.  (Well, mostly, they used transistors on the front end
of the memory.)  Memory was 32K 36 bit words.  Call it 128K bytes.  That
might be enough.

It had a cycle time of 12 microseconds.  12 ns would be 1000x as fast.
That's 80 MHz, a reasonable speed for an ARM.  So the CPU in today's GPS
systems is 300x to 1000x faster than the 709.

Anybody know what fraction of an ARM it takes to do the GPS calculations?

Do you have to keep up, or can you do the calculations for every N-th second?


I have articles desribing how they looked at the feasability of using 
RCA 1802 and 6502 as processors. Some of the early 2-channels receivers 
used a pair of similar 8-bitters if I recall correctly. You don't need 
much, but it's still a fair bit more tubes than just the bandpass 
processing would require which is mostly shift-registers, counters and 
some integrators.


Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] WWVB remod works with spectracom 8170 and netclock/2 other updates

[paul swed]

Thanks to Dave on Time-nuts I have been able to verify that the wwvb
remodulator works fine with the netclock/2 or the spectracom 8182. On the
8182 if you use it with the remodulator it senses the antenna. You need a
1.8K resistor to ground to make the rcvr believe an antennas there. Its
actually a bit fussy about this value.

Quite a bit of other information learned today.
The xtal can be adjustable and you can get it above the frequency. The
series resistor that controls the drive seems to be key. Higher lowers
drive increases isolation from the inverter output capacitance. I mean a
change from 20K to 270K. That said this creates a longer startup period
normal for low freq oscillators. So I don't have the best solution yet. But
I was able to add a 2-10pf trimmer and adjust above and below 60Khz.
Easiest way to adjust is by a dual trace scope and another 60 KHZ source.
Counter will work but its a lot slower process.

Output section delivers -65 db for a high and -82 for a low. Pretty good
guess. I changed it to a 10 db spread. The clocks don't like that at all.
Turns out a higher spread is better.

Have had the system operational at 3V and am back at 5 for now till I get
the oscillator figured out.
Needed to add a inductor in the power supply lead between the rcvr and the
digital section had feedback creep in.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB remodulator for the Spectracom 8170...

[paul swed]

See my update I think the xtals no longer going to be an issue


On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 10:17 AM, paul swed  wrote:

> Trying to catch up on several hundred work emails. Not exciting.
> I absolutely agree that the 60002 would make a lot of sense.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 1:19 AM, Burt I. Weiner  wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> This is probably why they sell crystals cut for 60,002 kHz and 60,005
>> kHz.  I ordered 10 of the 60,000 kHz crystals from DigiKey for about a buck
>> each.  The 60,002 and 60,005 crystals were only available in lots of a
>> bazillion.  It sounds like when I build the oscillator portion of the
>> remodulator I may to have to play a wee bit to get the new carrier within
>> tolerance of what the 8170 wants to see.
>>
>> Sorry to hear you've been fighting a flu bug.  A lot of folks I know have
>> recently gone through a bought of the flu.  I had it for a week but it was
>> mild compared to what some folks I know went through.  I hope you're
>> feeling 100% real soon.
>>
>> Burt, K6OQK
>>
>> At 09:26 PM 6/21/2013, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote
>>
>>> Hello to the group
>>> Very good thread. I am recovering from a severe flu. Thats wgy I have not
>>> been around.
>>> This will be brief.
>>> 1Hz off seems to cause an issue.
>>> The 60 khz xtals from mouser all seem to always be low.
>>> So by lowering the drive and I assume loading. The 20K resistor they come
>>> into range.
>>> Don't like this and ordered a few xtals from china. Oh lets say 50.
>>> Nothing says a 6 mhz xtal and divider can't work. Just adds complexity
>>> and
>>> cost.
>>> By the way the MAS 6180 is available but the distro wants an order of 50
>>> at
>>> $4 each.
>>> I can't take on the role of purchasing and distributing the chips.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>> Burt I. Weiner Associates
>> Broadcast Technical Services
>> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
>> b...@att.net
>> www.biwa.cc
>> K6OQK
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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[time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Jim Lux]

I think that doing the PN code and correlator is something that could be 
done with tubes (especially if you didn't want to go P-code).


I suppose you could use a counter to record the changes in code phase as 
you scan for the correlation peak, so that gets you your numeric code phase.


Getting doppler as a number for computation might be tricky, but you 
could probably solve for the position and clock offset without using 
doppler.


Decoding the nav message at 50bps should be straight forward.


Hmm. what about implementing the nav calculation as an analog computer. 
ANalog multipliers were built using vacuum tubes.


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Re: [time-nuts] raspberry pi, adafruit gps & ntp

[folkert]

Hello,

The last 25 hours I measured the jitter of my RPi-with-userspace PPS
processing. In the following graph you'll see those measurements. Each
row is an hour:
http://vps001.vanheusden.com/~folkert/jitter-hm.png
There's some kind of wave in it which I cannot explain: everything not
related to timekeeping (apart from sshd) is disabled on that device. No
cron, no at, not even the processes that monitor the state of the
network port.
Allan deviation: http://vps001.vanheusden.com/~folkert/allandev.png


Folkert van Heusden

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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/23/2013 12:04 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

I think that doing the PN code and correlator is something that could be
done with tubes (especially if you didn't want to go P-code).

I suppose you could use a counter to record the changes in code phase as
you scan for the correlation peak, so that gets you your numeric code
phase.

Getting doppler as a number for computation might be tricky, but you
could probably solve for the position and clock offset without using
doppler.

Decoding the nav message at 50bps should be straight forward.


All that is relatively trivial... compared to


Hmm. what about implementing the nav calculation as an analog computer.
ANalog multipliers were built using vacuum tubes.


You will need more ummpf to do the trigonometry. If you go 
electromechanical you can do it, but it will be rough estimation 
regardless. CORDIC was made for these circumstances, to let a weak 
processing mechanism do navigation processing for airplanes. You could 
do CORDIC in tubes or relays. Bunch of transistors and diodes could make 
minor wonders in compactness.


Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation...

[Burt I. Weiner]

RCA made the MI-7016 exciter for their early FM transmitters that was 
all tube, and phase locked to a crystal that was in the 100 kHz 
region.  The crystal frequency was determined by dividing the desired 
operating frequency (88 to 108 MHz) by1296.  It was lovingly called, 
"The Iron Fireman".  It had a two-phase motor that drove a capacitor 
in the oscillator tank.  It really did perform well, even by today's 
standards.  I think it was originally a Western Electric 
design.  When the 7016 exciter first came out the FM band was 44 to 
54 MHz, but when the band moved up to 88-108 MHz the transmitter 
design added a 4-125A double stage right after the exciter.  Some of 
these rigs were still operating well up into the 70's  See: 
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/rca_fm_exciter_unit_mi_7016mi.html 
I had a 1 KW version of it on Two-Meters for a short time.  I still 
have the crystal from the exciter that put the transmitter on 146.40 MHz.


Now you have some ideas to go with to begin your project.  :>

Burt, K6OQK



From: Didier Juges 

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)

Didier


Joseph Gray  wrote:

>>Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.
>
>Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)
>
>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
>this
>rig and see what works.
>
>Joe Gray
>W5JG


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 
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[time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation...

[Burt I. Weiner]

Here's a better picture and block diagram of the RCA 7016 FM 
Exciter.  The motor can be seen in the center.  Notice that the 
plastic compartment that has the flywheel for the motor also has 
about 1/4" of silicon oil to act as a damper to prevent low frequency 
sound such as thumps from causing it to unlock.


See: 
http://www.pa.msu.edu/~edmunds/Tube_FM_Exciter_Transmitter/rca_mi_7016_fm_exciter_reactance_tube.pdf 



Burt


RCA made the MI-7016 exciter for their early FM transmitters that was 
all tube, and phase locked to a crystal that was in the 100 kHz 
region.  The crystal frequency was determined by dividing the desired 
operating frequency (88 to 108 MHz) by1296.  It was lovingly called, 
"The Iron Fireman".  It had a two-phase motor that drove a capacitor 
in the oscillator tank.  It really did perform well, even by today's 
standards.  I think it was originally a Western Electric 
design.  When the 7016 exciter first came out the FM band was 44 to 
54 MHz, but when the band moved up to 88-108 MHz the transmitter 
design added a 4-125A double stage right after the exciter.  Some of 
these rigs were still operating well up into the 70's  See: 
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/rca_fm_exciter_unit_mi_7016mi.html 
I had a 1 KW version of it on Two-Meters for a short time.  I still 
have the crystal from the exciter that put the transmitter on 146.40 MHz.


Now you have some ideas to go with to begin your project.  :>

Burt, K6OQK



From: Didier Juges 

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)

Didier


Joseph Gray  wrote:

>>Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.
>
>Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)
>
>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
>this
>rig and see what works.
>
>Joe Gray
>W5JG


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK  
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Re: [time-nuts] Still looking for datasheet for Trimble 34310-T (off list)

[Bob Stewart]

In that case, I probably have more information than I have any right to have.  
=)

thanks,

Bob




- Original Message -
> From: Bob Camp 
> To: Bob Stewart 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Still looking for datasheet for Trimble 34310-T (off 
> list)
> 
> Hi
> 
> Trimble is pretty tight with the information on the OCXO's in their gear. 
> They get pretty nasty about people passing out information on them.
> 
> Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Jim Lux]

On 6/22/13 3:28 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 06/23/2013 12:04 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

I think that doing the PN code and correlator is something that could be
done with tubes (especially if you didn't want to go P-code).

I suppose you could use a counter to record the changes in code phase as
you scan for the correlation peak, so that gets you your numeric code
phase.

Getting doppler as a number for computation might be tricky, but you
could probably solve for the position and clock offset without using
doppler.

Decoding the nav message at 50bps should be straight forward.


All that is relatively trivial... compared to


Hmm. what about implementing the nav calculation as an analog computer.
ANalog multipliers were built using vacuum tubes.


You will need more ummpf to do the trigonometry. If you go
electromechanical you can do it, but it will be rough estimation
regardless. CORDIC was made for these circumstances, to let a weak
processing mechanism do navigation processing for airplanes. You could
do CORDIC in tubes or relays. Bunch of transistors and diodes could make
minor wonders in compactness.




electromechanical.. like omega receivers.  rotary transformers can do 
very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig 
functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.


Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a 
electromechanical system.  The satellites are in circular orbits and 
fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.


You'd only need trig to convert X,Y,Z into lat/lon, and for us timenuts 
types, do you really need lat/lon? In fact, do you even need to solve 
for earth centered coordinates?  Why not work in inertial space (whether 
your receiver happens to be moving in a circle at 1 rev/24 hrs or flying 
in a plane at something else is sort of immaterial)



I envision something with a common shaft running at 1 rev/12 hours that 
drives N rotors (one for each satellite).  there's a small motor that 
sets the offset of the rotor relative to the shaft to account for small 
movements along the orbit plane.  That, plus some other transformers 
would give you X,Y, and Z for each satellite.



Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed 
perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?




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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/23/2013 12:59 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 6/22/13 3:28 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 06/23/2013 12:04 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

I think that doing the PN code and correlator is something that could be
done with tubes (especially if you didn't want to go P-code).

I suppose you could use a counter to record the changes in code phase as
you scan for the correlation peak, so that gets you your numeric code
phase.

Getting doppler as a number for computation might be tricky, but you
could probably solve for the position and clock offset without using
doppler.

Decoding the nav message at 50bps should be straight forward.


All that is relatively trivial... compared to


Hmm. what about implementing the nav calculation as an analog computer.
ANalog multipliers were built using vacuum tubes.


You will need more ummpf to do the trigonometry. If you go
electromechanical you can do it, but it will be rough estimation
regardless. CORDIC was made for these circumstances, to let a weak
processing mechanism do navigation processing for airplanes. You could
do CORDIC in tubes or relays. Bunch of transistors and diodes could make
minor wonders in compactness.




electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.


Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for 
Ephemeris Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV 
contains the actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric 
Anomaly is a bit annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or 
another of approximation iteration is needed.


Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites 
current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for 
the bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes 
trivial if the position is known and only time is needed, given that we 
cranked out the birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires trigonometry.



Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.


You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need 
fairly accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.



You'd only need trig to convert X,Y,Z into lat/lon, and for us timenuts
types, do you really need lat/lon? In fact, do you even need to solve
for earth centered coordinates? Why not work in inertial space (whether
your receiver happens to be moving in a circle at 1 rev/24 hrs or flying
in a plane at something else is sort of immaterial)


Once you come to having a X, Y, Z and T, the remaining trig operations 
is trivial to what you already have done, so you might as well do them.



I envision something with a common shaft running at 1 rev/12 hours that
drives N rotors (one for each satellite). there's a small motor that
sets the offset of the rotor relative to the shaft to account for small
movements along the orbit plane. That, plus some other transformers
would give you X,Y, and Z for each satellite.


You have a sick mind. What worse is, I understood what you actually meant!


Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?


Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without 
the proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where 
way over the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in 
general already throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.


One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range 
distances.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you are talking about a "tube only" design ( = no solid state diodes) - I 
doubt you can get a navigation fix (download the almanac etc) before you hit 
the mean time to failure of the gizmo.That's based on the published 
remembrances of those who ran them. All of the tube based computers I've worked 
with were solid state diode / vacuum tube amp designs.

Bob

On Jun 22, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

> On 06/23/2013 12:59 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
>> On 6/22/13 3:28 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>>> On 06/23/2013 12:04 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
 I think that doing the PN code and correlator is something that could be
 done with tubes (especially if you didn't want to go P-code).
 
 I suppose you could use a counter to record the changes in code phase as
 you scan for the correlation peak, so that gets you your numeric code
 phase.
 
 Getting doppler as a number for computation might be tricky, but you
 could probably solve for the position and clock offset without using
 doppler.
 
 Decoding the nav message at 50bps should be straight forward.
>>> 
>>> All that is relatively trivial... compared to
>>> 
 Hmm. what about implementing the nav calculation as an analog computer.
 ANalog multipliers were built using vacuum tubes.
>>> 
>>> You will need more ummpf to do the trigonometry. If you go
>>> electromechanical you can do it, but it will be rough estimation
>>> regardless. CORDIC was made for these circumstances, to let a weak
>>> processing mechanism do navigation processing for airplanes. You could
>>> do CORDIC in tubes or relays. Bunch of transistors and diodes could make
>>> minor wonders in compactness.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
>> very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
>> functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.
> 
> Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for Ephemeris 
> Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV contains the 
> actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric Anomaly is a bit 
> annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or another of 
> approximation iteration is needed.
> 
> Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites 
> current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for the 
> bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes trivial if the 
> position is known and only time is needed, given that we cranked out the 
> birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires trigonometry.
> 
>> Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
>> electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
>> fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.
> 
> You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need fairly 
> accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.
> 
>> You'd only need trig to convert X,Y,Z into lat/lon, and for us timenuts
>> types, do you really need lat/lon? In fact, do you even need to solve
>> for earth centered coordinates? Why not work in inertial space (whether
>> your receiver happens to be moving in a circle at 1 rev/24 hrs or flying
>> in a plane at something else is sort of immaterial)
> 
> Once you come to having a X, Y, Z and T, the remaining trig operations is 
> trivial to what you already have done, so you might as well do them.
> 
>> I envision something with a common shaft running at 1 rev/12 hours that
>> drives N rotors (one for each satellite). there's a small motor that
>> sets the offset of the rotor relative to the shaft to account for small
>> movements along the orbit plane. That, plus some other transformers
>> would give you X,Y, and Z for each satellite.
> 
> You have a sick mind. What worse is, I understood what you actually meant!
> 
>> Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
>> perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?
> 
> Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without the 
> proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where way over 
> the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in general already 
> throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.
> 
> One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range 
> distances.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Jim Lux]

On 6/22/13 4:38 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:



electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.


Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for
Ephemeris Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV
contains the actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric
Anomaly is a bit annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or
another of approximation iteration is needed.

Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites
current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for
the bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes
trivial if the position is known and only time is needed, given that we
cranked out the birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires trigonometry.


Yes, but that trig can be done VERY slowly, since the cycle time is 12 
hours, which is why a resolver/rotary transformer approach seems viable.


(rather, than, say, integrating the satellite state vector)





Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.


You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need
fairly accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.



How accurate??   Resolvers are good to about 16 bit accuracy, so I guess 
1 part in 60,000.  if the orbit circumference is 163 Mm, then a resolver 
can determine the position to a few km.
However, I don't know that that is good enough.  If you need to know to 
1 chip at C/A code rates, 1 microsecond, that's a pretty small fraction 
of one 12 hour rev of 43200 seconds. But maybe not.







You'd only need trig to convert X,Y,Z into lat/lon, and for us timenuts
types, do you really need lat/lon? In fact, do you even need to solve
for earth centered coordinates? Why not work in inertial space (whether
your receiver happens to be moving in a circle at 1 rev/24 hrs or flying
in a plane at something else is sort of immaterial)


Once you come to having a X, Y, Z and T, the remaining trig operations
is trivial to what you already have done, so you might as well do them.


I envision something with a common shaft running at 1 rev/12 hours that
drives N rotors (one for each satellite). there's a small motor that
sets the offset of the rotor relative to the shaft to account for small
movements along the orbit plane. That, plus some other transformers
would give you X,Y, and Z for each satellite.


You have a sick mind. What worse is, I understood what you actually meant!


Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?


Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without
the proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where
way over the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in
general already throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.

One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range
distances.



So I think you probably can't get a position fix within 10km, but hey, 
what a beast it would be.






Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Well if the chip rate is at or above 1 MHz, a wavelength is 300 meters or less. 
A 1 KM error is probably a bit to large.

Bob

On Jun 22, 2013, at 7:52 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:

> On 6/22/13 4:38 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>> electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
>>> very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
>>> functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.
>> 
>> Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for
>> Ephemeris Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV
>> contains the actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric
>> Anomaly is a bit annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or
>> another of approximation iteration is needed.
>> 
>> Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites
>> current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for
>> the bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes
>> trivial if the position is known and only time is needed, given that we
>> cranked out the birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires trigonometry.
> 
> Yes, but that trig can be done VERY slowly, since the cycle time is 12 hours, 
> which is why a resolver/rotary transformer approach seems viable.
> 
> (rather, than, say, integrating the satellite state vector)
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
>>> electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
>>> fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.
>> 
>> You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need
>> fairly accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.
> 
> 
> How accurate??   Resolvers are good to about 16 bit accuracy, so I guess 1 
> part in 60,000.  if the orbit circumference is 163 Mm, then a resolver can 
> determine the position to a few km.
> However, I don't know that that is good enough.  If you need to know to 1 
> chip at C/A code rates, 1 microsecond, that's a pretty small fraction of one 
> 12 hour rev of 43200 seconds. But maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> You'd only need trig to convert X,Y,Z into lat/lon, and for us timenuts
>>> types, do you really need lat/lon? In fact, do you even need to solve
>>> for earth centered coordinates? Why not work in inertial space (whether
>>> your receiver happens to be moving in a circle at 1 rev/24 hrs or flying
>>> in a plane at something else is sort of immaterial)
>> 
>> Once you come to having a X, Y, Z and T, the remaining trig operations
>> is trivial to what you already have done, so you might as well do them.
>> 
>>> I envision something with a common shaft running at 1 rev/12 hours that
>>> drives N rotors (one for each satellite). there's a small motor that
>>> sets the offset of the rotor relative to the shaft to account for small
>>> movements along the orbit plane. That, plus some other transformers
>>> would give you X,Y, and Z for each satellite.
>> 
>> You have a sick mind. What worse is, I understood what you actually meant!
>> 
>>> Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
>>> perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?
>> 
>> Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without
>> the proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where
>> way over the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in
>> general already throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.
>> 
>> One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range
>> distances.
>> 
> 
> So I think you probably can't get a position fix within 10km, but hey, what a 
> beast it would be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

On 06/23/2013 01:52 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 6/22/13 4:38 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:



electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.


Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for
Ephemeris Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV
contains the actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric
Anomaly is a bit annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or
another of approximation iteration is needed.

Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites
current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for
the bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes
trivial if the position is known and only time is needed, given that we
cranked out the birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires
trigonometry.


Yes, but that trig can be done VERY slowly, since the cycle time is 12
hours, which is why a resolver/rotary transformer approach seems viable.

(rather, than, say, integrating the satellite state vector)


Indeed.




Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.


You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need
fairly accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.



How accurate?? Resolvers are good to about 16 bit accuracy, so I guess 1
part in 60,000. if the orbit circumference is 163 Mm, then a resolver
can determine the position to a few km.
However, I don't know that that is good enough. If you need to know to 1
chip at C/A code rates, 1 microsecond, that's a pretty small fraction of
one 12 hour rev of 43200 seconds. But maybe not.


Hmm. You could tabulate it even. It would be quite a bit of core-memory, 
but achieveable.


Oh, and it isn't full 43200 s, it's only about 11 hours and 58 min.


Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?


Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without
the proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where
way over the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in
general already throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.

One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range
distances.



So I think you probably can't get a position fix within 10km, but hey,
what a beast it would be.


Oh yes.

With a RAIM algorithm you could use extra channels to overcome 
deficiencies in the crudeness of the calculations.


Would be neat if there would be a PLL steering of the revolving calender 
to maintain with minimum error. The T error would be a natural detector 
to use. Extra grade if individual birds got adjusted.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bob,

On 06/23/2013 02:06 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Well if the chip rate is at or above 1 MHz, a wavelength is 300 meters or less. 
A 1 KM error is probably a bit to large.


A tube-channel to keep tracking within a chip does not seem too hard. 
Utilizing that precision for the rest of the calculation is a challenge.


Each channel would naturally have their own 1.023 MHz crystal 
oscillator, tweaked by the feedback loop control. That part would be 
pretty straight-forward. There also needs to be a carrier oscillator for 
final carrier removal.


Doing this beast in transistors would be enough challenge and a good 
exercise in itself.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Bob Camp]

Hi

How stable a 1.023 oscillator? How much pull range on that oscillator? H…..

Bob

On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:20 PM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

> Hi Bob,
> 
> On 06/23/2013 02:06 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Well if the chip rate is at or above 1 MHz, a wavelength is 300 meters or 
>> less. A 1 KM error is probably a bit to large.
> 
> A tube-channel to keep tracking within a chip does not seem too hard. 
> Utilizing that precision for the rest of the calculation is a challenge.
> 
> Each channel would naturally have their own 1.023 MHz crystal oscillator, 
> tweaked by the feedback loop control. That part would be pretty 
> straight-forward. There also needs to be a carrier oscillator for final 
> carrier removal.
> 
> Doing this beast in transistors would be enough challenge and a good exercise 
> in itself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Bob Camp]

Hi


On Jun 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Magnus Danielson  
wrote:

> On 06/23/2013 01:52 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
>> On 6/22/13 4:38 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> 
 
 electromechanical.. like omega receivers. rotary transformers can do
 very high quality trig functions, but do you actually need trig
 functions assuming you're just solving for X,Y,Z,T.
>>> 
>>> Oh yes. Check IS-GPS-200F, clause 20.3.3.4.3 User Algorithm for
>>> Ephemeris Determination, found on page 113 and forward. The Table 20-IV
>>> contains the actual formulas. The Kepler's Equation for Eccentric
>>> Anomaly is a bit annoying, since it is not in closed form, so one way or
>>> another of approximation iteration is needed.
>>> 
>>> Quite a bit of trigonometry goes on just to have each tracked satellites
>>> current position estimated, such that the pseudo-range value taken for
>>> the bird can be diffed out with the position. That process becomes
>>> trivial if the position is known and only time is needed, given that we
>>> cranked out the birds X, Y, Z and T position, which requires
>>> trigonometry.
>> 
>> Yes, but that trig can be done VERY slowly, since the cycle time is 12
>> hours, which is why a resolver/rotary transformer approach seems viable.
>> 
>> (rather, than, say, integrating the satellite state vector)
> 
> Indeed.
> 
>>> 
 Are you allowed to externally supply the almanac, in the form of a
 electromechanical system. The satellites are in circular orbits and
 fairly stable, and with multiple satellites in the same plane.
>>> 
>>> You could naturally cheat in several interesting ways, but you need
>>> fairly accurate X, Y and Z values for the birds at any given time.
>> 
>> 
>> How accurate?? Resolvers are good to about 16 bit accuracy, so I guess 1
>> part in 60,000. if the orbit circumference is 163 Mm, then a resolver
>> can determine the position to a few km.
>> However, I don't know that that is good enough. If you need to know to 1
>> chip at C/A code rates, 1 microsecond, that's a pretty small fraction of
>> one 12 hour rev of 43200 seconds. But maybe not.
> 
> Hmm. You could tabulate it even. It would be quite a bit of core-memory,

Core and tubes??? Hmmm…..

Bob

> but achieveable.
> 
> Oh, and it isn't full 43200 s, it's only about 11 hours and 58 min.
> 
 Actually, how bad would your time estimate be if you just assumed
 perfect circular orbits with no higher order corrections?
>>> 
>>> Grabbing a modern set of data, doing the calculations with and without
>>> the proper values would tell you. I would not be surprised if it where
>>> way over the km off. On the other hand, the precision we talk about in
>>> general already throws us off sufficiently, so who cares.
>>> 
>>> One should realize that we talk about tens of Mm numbers in pseudo-range
>>> distances.
>>> 
>> 
>> So I think you probably can't get a position fix within 10km, but hey,
>> what a beast it would be.
> 
> Oh yes.
> 
> With a RAIM algorithm you could use extra channels to overcome deficiencies 
> in the crudeness of the calculations.
> 
> Would be neat if there would be a PLL steering of the revolving calender to 
> maintain with minimum error. The T error would be a natural detector to use. 
> Extra grade if individual birds got adjusted.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

[Mark C. Stephens]

Note for the Cygwin executables, comport parameter in the unix format. 
e.g. fe5680a_logger.exe /dev/com1

by using comm_5680 I was able to get Hadamard Deviation down from 1.15E-10 to 
2.75E-12 @100 Seconds !!!
In any man's book, a fantastic improvement.

I have yet to let it settle down and a tweak 1.0-/+E5 either side of current 
setting possibly will further improve specs.


-marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Mark C. Stephens
Sent: Sunday, 23 June 2013 12:00 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

To Answer my own question, as obviously no one here knew the answer, Its 
documented in the FE5680A technical manual.

After a couple of hours sending hex and working out checksums and generally 
doing my head in I came across this site:
http://n5tnl.com/time/fe-5680a/control/

Some nice person has made the software to do it and do it, it does well.


-marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Mark C. Stephens
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 11:39 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5860A - R232 working but S type commands don't work.

I finally got around to testing a couple of FE5860 I bought on eBay 19 months 
ago for $30.00 a piece including shipping.

I have PPS, !0Mhz, lock indication all connected and working.

Rs232 appears to be working as this command appears to have had a chat with the 
rubidium:
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Rubidium>fe5680_info_win32.exe


Cmd 0x22 0x0D byte reply: [22] [0D] [00] [2F] [44] [01] [8B] [45] [43] [FC] 
[F4] [DE] [1E] Cmd 0x22 ASCII (.): D..EC...
Cmd 0x22 ASCII ( ): D  EC

Cmd 0x29 0x09 byte reply: [29] [09] [00] [20] [FF] [00] [00] [00] [FF] Cmd 0x29 
ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x29 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x2B 0x15 byte reply: [2B] [15] [00] [3E] [32] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] 
[30] [30] [2E] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [00] [2C] Cmd 0x2B ASCII (.): 
2000.00.
Cmd 0x2B ASCII ( ): 2000.00

Cmd 0x2D 0x09 byte reply: [2D] [09] [00] [24] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] Cmd 0x2D 
ASCII (.): 
Cmd 0x2D ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x47 0x08 byte reply: [47] [08] [00] [4F] [23] [20] [00] [03] Cmd 0x47 
ASCII (.): # .
Cmd 0x47 ASCII ( ): #

Cmd 0x53 0x07 byte reply: [53] [07] [00] [54] [57] [00] [57] Cmd 0x53 ASCII 
(.): W.
Cmd 0x53 ASCII ( ): W

Cmd 0x57 0x56 byte reply: [57] [56] [00] [01] [20] [2F] [00] [32] [00] [35] 
[00] [39] [00] [3D] [00] [40] [00] [44] [00] [47] [00] [4B] [00] [4F] [00] [52] 
[00] [56] [00] [59] [00] [5D] [00] [60] [00] [64] [00] [68] [00] [6B] [00] [6F] 
[00] [72] [00] [76] [00] [79] [00] [7D] [00] [80] [00] [84] [00] [87] [00] [8B] 
[00] [8E] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [A5] Cmd 0x57 ASCII (.): 
 
/.2.5.9.=.@.D.G.K.O.R.V.Y.].`.d.h.k.o.r.v.y.}...
Cmd 0x57 ASCII ( ):  / 2 5 9 = @ D G K O R V Y ] ` d h k o r v y }

Cmd 0x59 0x56 byte reply: [59] [56] [00] [0F] [20] [6C] [FF] [82] [FF] [79] 
[FF] [7A] [FF] [80] [FF] [80] [FF] [82] [FF] [A0] [FF] [A1] [FF] [BB] [FF] [D4] 
[FF] [E3] [FF] [F0] [FF] [00] [00] [FB] [FF] [18] [00] [1B] [00] [1E] [00] [16] 
[00] [1D] [00] [16] [00] [1C] [00] [1D] [00] [2B] [00] [27] [00] [29] [00] [48] 
[00] [46] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [00] [E3] Cmd 0x59 ASCII (.): 
 
l...y.z...+.'.).H.F.
Cmd 0x59 ASCII ( ):  l   y z   + ' ) H F

Cmd 0x5A 0x0D byte reply: [5A] [0D] [00] [57] [01] [00] [FE] [0F] [76] [05] 
[36] [06] [B3] Cmd 0x5A ASCII (.): v.6.
Cmd 0x5A ASCII ( ): v 6

Cmd 0x61 0x0B byte reply: [61] [0B] [00] [6A] [37] [35] [34] [33] [39] [00] 
[3C] Cmd 0x61 ASCII (.): 75439.
Cmd 0x61 ASCII ( ): 75439

Cmd 0x65 (CS bad!) 0x07 byte reply: [65] [07] [00] [62] [20] [1C] [1C] Cmd 0x65 
ASCII (.):  .
Cmd 0x65 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0x67 0x08 byte reply: [67] [08] [00] [6F] [01] [97] [B5] [23] Cmd 0x67 
ASCII (.): ...
Cmd 0x67 ASCII ( ):

Cmd 0xF0 0x0E byte reply: [F0] [0E] [00] [FE] [33] [2E] [34] [00] [00] [00] 
[00] [00] [00] [29] Cmd 0xF0 ASCII (.): 3.4..
Cmd 0xF0 ASCII ( ): 3.4

However programs such as FE5680A that use the 'S' type commands don't seem to 
work.

I am pretty happy with them but one is off by 0.1E-6 Hz. Ideally I'd like to 
trim it back closer to 10 MHz using rs232.

Any hints graciously received with thanks :)


-marki
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bob,

On 06/23/2013 02:35 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

How stable a 1.023 oscillator? How much pull range on that oscillator? H…..


The 1.57542 GHz carrier gets you to +/- 6 kHz which is about +/- 3.8 
ppm, so it's not that hard to do.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Bob,

On 06/23/2013 02:35 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

How accurate?? Resolvers are good to about 16 bit accuracy, so I guess 1
part in 60,000. if the orbit circumference is 163 Mm, then a resolver
can determine the position to a few km.
However, I don't know that that is good enough. If you need to know to 1
chip at C/A code rates, 1 microsecond, that's a pretty small fraction of
one 12 hour rev of 43200 seconds. But maybe not.


Hmm. You could tabulate it even. It would be quite a bit of core-memory,


Core and tubes??? Hmmm…..


We could get you some AC137 to play with if you want...

Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Max Robinson]

That's amazing.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O DS.

Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Woodworking site 
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html

Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

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- Original Message - 
From: "DaveH" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation



If anyone can do it, it would be these people:

http://www.ominous-valve.com/tour.html

Home page:

http://www.ominous-valve.com/index.html

Dave


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
[mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Max Robinson
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:43
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

Why set such puny goals.  How about a smart phone with tubes.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O DS.

- Original Message - 
From: "Didier Juges" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation


>A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)
>
> Didier
>
>
> Joseph Gray  wrote:
>
>>>Otherwise you might just as well lock it up instead.
>>
>>Hmm, a 1970 vintage tube transmitter with a GPSDO frequency lock :-)
>>
>>Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I will spend more time with
>>this
>>rig and see what works.
>>
>>Joe Gray
>>W5JG
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>
> -- 
> Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker

while I do other
> things.
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation

[Max Robinson]

The university of Florida still owned, that's right owned, an IBM 709 when I 
was there 1960 through 1968.  I took a tour of it and punched a few cards to 
program it.


IBM didn't sell computers to anybody not even the feds but they sold this 
one.  That should have made the purchasing department at U of F suspicious. 
I think they ran it until 1970 when it was replaced by a 360.


Regards.

Max.  K 4 O DS.

Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Woodworking site 
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html

Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to
funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Hal Murray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator temperature compensation




mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:

On 06/22/2013 05:27 PM, Didier Juges wrote:

A real treat would be to do the GPS receiver with tubes ;)
The the correlation channel(s) would be possible to do in tubes. The rest 
of

the processing is "problematic".


The IBM 709 was tubes.  (Well, mostly, they used transistors on the front 
end

of the memory.)  Memory was 32K 36 bit words.  Call it 128K bytes.  That
might be enough.

It had a cycle time of 12 microseconds.  12 ns would be 1000x as fast.
That's 80 MHz, a reasonable speed for an ARM.  So the CPU in today's GPS
systems is 300x to 1000x faster than the 709.

Anybody know what fraction of an ARM it takes to do the GPS calculations?

Do you have to keep up, or can you do the calculations for every N-th 
second?



--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Jim Lux]

On 6/22/13 5:35 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

How stable a 1.023 oscillator? How much pull range on that oscillator? H…..



Doppler is the big component..several kHz..

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[time-nuts] HP Neat Retrofits

[Perry Sandeen]

List,
 
Check these out on ebay
 
5370A W/Rubidium.   Item number: 321147995106.  Slick, but I wonder about the 
heat issue.
 
HP 3325B W/Rubidium.  Item number: 300907767545. Very nicely
done.  IMHO, fairly priced.
 
Regards,
 
Perrier



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