Re: [time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit

[GandalfG8--- via time-nuts]

An update on this just in case anyone else interested...
 
I've confirmed that the Symmetricom CDU software for the Proteus GPS unit  
will run fine under Windows 7 on a 2009 HP dual-core laptop using a  
Prolific USB to RS232 convertor. There is no option to select baud rates etc in 
 
the CDU software, just the option to select the appropriate COM port  between 
1 and 4.
 
The Proteus here did not start up displaying the current date, probably not 
 helped by this one not being used for several years, but once  the correct 
date was set via the software it updated  correctly and maintained it for 
short power disconnections at  least.
 
The antenna socket does feed 12 Volts to the antenna, although the  
originally supplied volute style antenna is not particularly sensitive and 
would  
definitely require a good outdoor location.
A more sensitive Symmetricom 1280 provided reasonable results for  indoor 
testing.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 

Hi all,
 
 I have the chance to buy a new boxed unit. Having glanced at the manual I
 understand that the configuration software runs under Windows 95 and uses a
 serial RS232 port. The only Windows box I have now runs Windows 10 and has
 USB only. So my questions are, can I run the config software under Windows
 10 and will a USB to serial adaptor work with it? I will need to make a
 power supply for it as I think it requires 24 volts. That should be no
 problem.
 
 Any comments great fully received.
 
 Thanks in advance,
 
 Steve G0XAR

 
 
 
 
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[time-nuts] HP 53131A display dim

[cdelect]

Anyone know about these displays?

 If the display is getting dim do I need a new VFD module?

Thanks,

Corby

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Re: [time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit

[Rob Sherwood .]

Why is this an issue?  

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 1:00 PM, "Brendan Giles"  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I was the project manager who was in charge of the NAVSTAR proteus GPS time 
> and frequency unit.The two GPS rollover dates 1999/2018 were tested in 
> product test plan. Also various dates were checked upto 2037 for the PC 
> output message.
> Brendan Giles   
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[time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit

[Brendan Giles]

I was the project manager who was in charge of the NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and 
frequency unit.The two GPS rollover dates 1999/2018 were tested in product test 
plan. Also various dates were checked upto 2037 for the PC output message.
Brendan Giles 
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise quartz crystal oscillator by Bruce Griffiths

[Attila Kinali]

Salut,

Thanks everyone for answering my questions and englighting me on
the general topic.

Sorry for the late answer from my side. It took me some time to
read up on all the pointers and hints provided. I'll quickly add
some  comments and questions to a few of the mails, that I find
noteworth, while i'm digging deeper into the topic.



On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:31:36 + (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths  wrote:

> http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrTcaxMzS5WgJIAMwk3QIpQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBzbW1zYXBzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjEEY29sbwNncTEEdnRpZAM-/RV=2/RE=1445936589/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fescies.org%2fdownload%2fwebDocumentFile%3fid%3d60902/RK=0/RS=.Rmksavr9Ui3TZ8D1XyZ06TpeDY-


The correct URL here is https://escies.org/download/webDocumentFile?id=60902
and referencing to the document
"Low Noise Master Oscillator LNMO" by Wagner and Desaules.




On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:19:35 -0700
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:

> The oscillator transistor and buffer amplifier are basically
> the same as the HP 10811, except for the absence of mode
> suppressors.  The difference here is that the oscillator
> self limits in the oscillator transistor, whereas the 10811
> has ALC.  The discontinuous operation of the transistor,
> as explained by Driscoll some 45 years ago, is undesirable
> because it increases the load resistance the crystal sees.

Driscoll wrote a lot about oscillators over the years.
I couldn't find anything specific to discontinuous operation.
Do you have a titel of a paper related to this?


> The 2 transistor "Driscoll oscillator" fixes this problem
> by using an additional stage that limits instead of the
> oscillator transistor.

A good introduction to Driscolls oscillator design can be found in:

"Notes on the Driscoll VHF Overtone Crystal Oscillator and
New Low-Noise VHF Crystal Oscillator Topology" by Chris Bartram GW4DGU, 2008
page 5 in "Scatterpoint"
http://www.microwavers.org/scatterpoint/2008/Scatterpoint_Apr_2008.pdf


> I have demonstrated that the close in phase noise in
> the 10811 is entirely due to the flicker noise of the
> crystal.  The only place where the 10811 circuit comes
> into play is beyond 1 kHz from the carrier, where the
> Burgoon patent circuit (which apparently has prior art

Is the Burgoon patent you are refering to US4283691
"Crystal oscillator having low noise signal extraction circuit" ?





On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 06:45:54 -0700
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:

> Bruce has it exactly right.  At offset frequencies beyond 1 kHz,
> the source impedance for the grounded base is very high due to
> the crystal impedance being very high.  As Burgoon explains,
> this condition suppresses base recombination noise, and the
> only noise mechanism that is significant is the collector shot
> noise.  (To minimize shot noise, don't run more DC collector
> current than necessary).
> 
> I read Ulrich Rohde's 1977 article showing this circuit,
> before I started working at HP in 1979.  When I got to HP,

The article in question is either 

"Stable Crystal Oscillators", Ham Radio Magazine, June, 1975
or 
"Effects of Noise in Receiving System", Ham Radio Magazine, November 1977

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an online source for the
Ham Radio Magazine. If anyone has a digital version of these
articles, I would appreciate a copy.


Attila Kinali



-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
-- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] Low noise quartz crystal oscillator by Bruce Griffiths

[Will]

Hi ,

Ham Radio Magazine used to be available on archive.org but has been
removed.  73 Magazine is still available.

CD's of it are available (expensive).

I'll look later and see which issue it was.

Cheers,
Will

On 09/11/15 11:19, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Salut,
>
> Thanks everyone for answering my questions and englighting me on
> the general topic.
>
> Sorry for the late answer from my side. It took me some time to
> read up on all the pointers and hints provided. I'll quickly add
> some  comments and questions to a few of the mails, that I find
> noteworth, while i'm digging deeper into the topic.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 01:31:36 + (UTC)
> Bruce Griffiths  wrote:
>
>> http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrTcaxMzS5WgJIAMwk3QIpQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBzbW1zYXBzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjEEY29sbwNncTEEdnRpZAM-/RV=2/RE=1445936589/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fescies.org%2fdownload%2fwebDocumentFile%3fid%3d60902/RK=0/RS=.Rmksavr9Ui3TZ8D1XyZ06TpeDY-
>
> The correct URL here is https://escies.org/download/webDocumentFile?id=60902
> and referencing to the document
> "Low Noise Master Oscillator LNMO" by Wagner and Desaules.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 20:19:35 -0700
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
>
>> The oscillator transistor and buffer amplifier are basically
>> the same as the HP 10811, except for the absence of mode
>> suppressors.  The difference here is that the oscillator
>> self limits in the oscillator transistor, whereas the 10811
>> has ALC.  The discontinuous operation of the transistor,
>> as explained by Driscoll some 45 years ago, is undesirable
>> because it increases the load resistance the crystal sees.
> Driscoll wrote a lot about oscillators over the years.
> I couldn't find anything specific to discontinuous operation.
> Do you have a titel of a paper related to this?
>
>
>> The 2 transistor "Driscoll oscillator" fixes this problem
>> by using an additional stage that limits instead of the
>> oscillator transistor.
> A good introduction to Driscolls oscillator design can be found in:
>
> "Notes on the Driscoll VHF Overtone Crystal Oscillator and
> New Low-Noise VHF Crystal Oscillator Topology" by Chris Bartram GW4DGU, 2008
> page 5 in "Scatterpoint"
> http://www.microwavers.org/scatterpoint/2008/Scatterpoint_Apr_2008.pdf
>
>
>> I have demonstrated that the close in phase noise in
>> the 10811 is entirely due to the flicker noise of the
>> crystal.  The only place where the 10811 circuit comes
>> into play is beyond 1 kHz from the carrier, where the
>> Burgoon patent circuit (which apparently has prior art
> Is the Burgoon patent you are refering to US4283691
> "Crystal oscillator having low noise signal extraction circuit" ?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 06:45:54 -0700
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
>
>> Bruce has it exactly right.  At offset frequencies beyond 1 kHz,
>> the source impedance for the grounded base is very high due to
>> the crystal impedance being very high.  As Burgoon explains,
>> this condition suppresses base recombination noise, and the
>> only noise mechanism that is significant is the collector shot
>> noise.  (To minimize shot noise, don't run more DC collector
>> current than necessary).
>>
>> I read Ulrich Rohde's 1977 article showing this circuit,
>> before I started working at HP in 1979.  When I got to HP,
> The article in question is either 
>
> "Stable Crystal Oscillators", Ham Radio Magazine, June, 1975
> or 
> "Effects of Noise in Receiving System", Ham Radio Magazine, November 1977
>
> Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an online source for the
> Ham Radio Magazine. If anyone has a digital version of these
> articles, I would appreciate a copy.
>
>
>   Attila Kinali
>
>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit

[paul swed]

Because the roll over is a pain.
Thats good engineering if they checked that far.
What happens if you have a receiver that doesn't handle it correctly is you
do not tend to get satellite lock because the dates all wrong.
You cheat this "The pain part" by figuring out what the date should have
been by subtracting 1024 weeks. Seems easy right. Nope.
That works for the old austron. But as I say serious thinking. There are
some online tools that help. But it all gets old very fast.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Rob Sherwood.  wrote:

> Why is this an issue?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Nov 8, 2015, at 1:00 PM, "Brendan Giles" 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I was the project manager who was in charge of the NAVSTAR proteus GPS
> time and frequency unit.The two GPS rollover dates 1999/2018 were tested in
> product test plan. Also various dates were checked upto 2037 for the PC
> output message.
> > Brendan Giles
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 53131A display dim

[Bob Camp]

Hi

It’s either the VFD or the supply to the VFD. Mostly it’s the VFD. A quick
check with a DVM will verify if the supply is doing ok.

Bob

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 3:51 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Anyone know about these displays?
> 
> If the display is getting dim do I need a new VFD module?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Corby
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit

[Rob Sherwood .]

Thanks.  What I intended to ask is why the problem exists, not implying that it 
doesn't matter. Rob, NC0B

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 6:30 PM, "paul swed"  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the roll over is a pain.
> Thats good engineering if they checked that far.
> What happens if you have a receiver that doesn't handle it correctly is you
> do not tend to get satellite lock because the dates all wrong.
> You cheat this "The pain part" by figuring out what the date should have
> been by subtracting 1024 weeks. Seems easy right. Nope.
> That works for the old austron. But as I say serious thinking. There are
> some online tools that help. But it all gets old very fast.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Rob Sherwood.  wrote:
>> 
>> Why is this an issue?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Nov 8, 2015, at 1:00 PM, "Brendan Giles" 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I was the project manager who was in charge of the NAVSTAR proteus GPS
>> time and frequency unit.The two GPS rollover dates 1999/2018 were tested in
>> product test plan. Also various dates were checked upto 2037 for the PC
>> output message.
>>> Brendan Giles
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 53131A display dim

[Chuck Harris]

The biggest cause of failure with VFD's that I have seen
is the filament voltage drops too low.  Usually it is a bad
capacitor in the supply, or a drifting resistor on the regulator.

I have a VFD on an alarm clock made by GE back in 1980 that
has been running 24/7 since it was bought, and is still way too
bright.  I make my wife prop something to block it so that it
doesn't keep me awake.

-Chuck Harris

cdel...@juno.com wrote:

Anyone know about these displays?

  If the display is getting dim do I need a new VFD module?

Thanks,

Corby

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