Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Bill Hawkins
Look up the Collins CV-157. This 1950s unit converted the IF output of
an R-390 receiver into upper and lower sidebands, which could be further
demodulated by existing land line multiplexing techniques, such as 4
RTTY on each sideband. It heterodyned the R-390 IF to 100 KC and
filtered that with a 10 CPS bandwidth filter. A mechanical servo tuned
the heterodyne oscillator to hold 100 KC. It was a marvel of technology
at the time. Didn't use the Knights filter, though. Possibly the
heaviest converter Collins built. Had 44 tubes.

Had one once, but time passes.

Bill Hawkins

-Original Message-
From: Joseph Gray
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 1:32 PM

Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of an
very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing about it
is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used for, with such
a narrow bandwidth?

Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] A Very Interesting "Plock"

2016-03-06 Thread Tim Shoppa
Locally, I am regularly enthralled by the Glen Echo Wurlizer 165 Band Organ
(a different unit but a good video showing how it is driven by multiple
parallel paper tapes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMj6duvFJ4o )

But the digit writing of this clock is captivating, and brings to mind some
electronic character generators of the past century. Here's some details
about how Lincoln Labs used Fourier series to make arbitrary waveforms for
generating display characters on a X-Y CRT:
http://www.nixiebunny.com/crtgen/crtgen.html

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:55 AM, Daniel Watson 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I saw this article about a hand-made clock, and thought some of you might
> enjoy it. Called the Plock (plot clock), it is a 407-piece wooden clock
> that writes the time. You really just have to see it in action to
> appreciate it.
>
>
> http://www.ablogtowatch.com/suzuki-kango-plock-wooden-automaton-time-writing-clock/
>
> The accuracy might not be up to time-nuts standards yet, but hopefully we
> can excuse that given the remarkable, artistic execution. :)
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] Need info on a Vectron Model : 233-8346 OCXO

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

>From a quick look at Mr Google:

>From the base part number (233) they are low cost un-compensated sine wave 
>XO’s. They run of something like 12 to 15V and put out about +7 dbm. Phase 
>noise (by todays standards) is “nothing special”. The harmonics are what any 
>recient thread on the subject here would call “nowhere near good enough”. The 
>same would be said of the sub harmonics on the 100 MHz version.

Pinouts should be close to:

http://www.vectron.com/products/xo/co-233_233h.htm. 

They also show up in Vectron catalogs going back pretty much to the dawn of 
time. 

I have absolutely no idea if any of that applies to the 8346 version. I’ve 
never seen one for sale or a picture of one. 

Bob


> On Mar 6, 2016, at 12:40 PM, cfo  wrote:
> 
> 233-8346

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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

> On Mar 6, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 03/07/2016 12:42 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> 
>> In message 
>> 
>> , Joseph Gray writes:
>> 
>>> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
>>> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
>>> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
>>> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
>> 
>> The 100kHz center frequency pretty much rules out that it comes
>> from carrier telephony.
>> 
> 
> It does not match any of the FDM pilot tone systems that I've seen.
> It also does not match the TDM system rates, and this device seems old enough 
> to almost precursor them.

If it’s a pilot tone, it’s probably part of some sort of tuned instrument 
rather than a full system. 

Bob

> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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[time-nuts] Need info on a Vectron Model : 233-8346 OCXO

2016-03-06 Thread cfo

Gents

I have just gotten 2 Vectron model 233-8346 OCXO's , a 10Mhz & a 100Mhz.
They have 2 pins &  the case (moght be a 3'rd)  , and a BNC for F-Out.

I have absolutely no info of these ,and have spent a lot of time
searching on the "net".

Can anyone help me with some info (datasheet) on this model ?


TIA
CFO
Denmark


-- 
E-mail:xne...@luna.dyndns.dk

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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Magnus Danielson

Hi,

On 03/07/2016 12:42 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 
, Joseph Gray writes:


Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


The 100kHz center frequency pretty much rules out that it comes
from carrier telephony.



It does not match any of the FDM pilot tone systems that I've seen.
It also does not match the TDM system rates, and this device seems old 
enough to almost precursor them.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

The bandwidth *was* 10 Hz (or 10 cps) when it was made. Who knows what it is 
after 5 decades of aging. Same goes for the center frequency. 

It’s not uncommon to see solder sealed crystals in low frequency filters. If 
they age 5 ppm per year, that’s doing pretty well. At 100 KHz, 5 ppm is 1/2 Hz. 
That would give you a 10 year “drift out of bandwidth” sort of life on the 
part. It also assumes the aging is linear with time (which it likely isn’t. 

The same sort of thing applies the the TC of the crystals. 100 ppm 0-70 
stabilities are not unusual on LF filter crystals. That’s pretty major compared 
to the specs on the filter. 

Bob

> On Mar 6, 2016, at 4:56 PM, jmfra...@cox.net wrote:
> 
> Actually, the bandwidth is 10 Hz not 100 Hz.
> 
>  Joseph Gray  wrote: 
>> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
>> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
>> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
>> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
>> 
>> 
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread jmfranke
Actually, the bandwidth is 10 Hz not 100 Hz.

 Joseph Gray  wrote: 
> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
> 
> 
> Joe Gray
> W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp

In message 
, Joseph Gray writes:

>Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
>an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
>about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
>for, with such a narrow bandwidth?

The 100kHz center frequency pretty much rules out that it comes
from carrier telephony.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

Also consider that the filter is *very* old. The logo is probably from >50 
years ago. That makes the gizmo a “tube era” sort of part. CTS bought Knights 
in 1964 and the logo changed after that.

The part in the picture is serial number two. There may not have been very many 
gizmos that used that filter. 

Bob


> On Mar 6, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi again Joe,
> 
> As I read it, it's a 100 kHz 10 Hz BW filter. Very narrow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 03/06/2016 08:31 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:
>> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
>> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
>> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
>> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
>> 
>> 
>> Joe Gray
>> W5JG
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Gregory Beat
Old James Knight product (west of me in Sandwich, IL)

Actually, the Frequency is 100 kHz (common for calibrators in analog receivers),
with a Bandwidth of 10 Hz.  
Since they used Cycles, instead of Hertz, that will help to date the item (as 
well as JK logo).

Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Arnold Tibus
Joe,

if I read correct, the BW of this filter is only 10 Hz (cps), not 100 Hz,
@ carrier frequency of 100 kHz.
Such a low bandwidth is useful to work with very faint signals.
The low BW reduces noise, but the received signal must be
very slow to pass the filter and the transmitter/ receiver system
must be very stable to not miss each other.
One such application would be CCW (Coherent CW).
But what was the real application of that filter I have
no knowledge ...

Arnold, DK2WT


Am 06.03.2016 um 20:31 schrieb Joseph Gray:
> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
>
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Tom Miller


- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:31 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter



Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG






Loran maybe? It says 10 CPS for bandwidth.

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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Arnold Tibus
Joe,

if I read correct, the BW of this filter is only 10 Hz (cps), not 100 Hz,
@ carrier frequency of 100 kHz.
Such a low bandwidth is useful to work with very faint signals.
The low BW reduces noise, but the received signal must be
very slow to pass the filter and the transmitter/ receiver system
must be very stable to not miss each other.
One such application would be CCW (Coherent CW).
But what was the real application of that filter I have
no knowledge ...

Arnold, DK2WT

Am 06.03.2016 um 20:31 schrieb Joseph Gray:
> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
>
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Positioning Accuracy - Lady Heather vs. T-Bolt Monitor

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

The data is as accurate as the TBolt it’s self. The device can use the extra 
digits. The utility of a more accurate position has been verified in the past. 

Simple math:

Each meter you are off is 3 ns. In a worst case situation you could get 6 ns of 
“ripple” as the constellation moved around you. That’s about half of the best 
case day / night ionosphere shift. 

Bob


> On Mar 6, 2016, at 2:51 PM, johncroos via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello Time Nuts -My question is --- both LH and T-Bolt Mon will readout 
> position during andat the conclusion of a self survey.The readout from LH 
> provides 2 additional digits of resolution compared to T-bolt Monitor.That is 
> LH provides 7 digits of Lat or Lon to the right of the decimal point; T-bolt 
> Mon provides 5.Now with the understanding that one needs to set a relatively 
> high elevation andamplitude masks to eliminate all but robust signals, and 
> that one must take a lotof samples (48,000 or more) --- Has anyone verified 
> the utility of those extra two digits?By utility I mean - is the 6th decimal 
> place accurate assuming the above constraints.I am trying to nail a position 
> in Longitude to 2 feet or less at a Latitude of 38 degrees N.I have lots of 
> time to take lots of survey points so that is not an issue.Best regards   - 
> John k6iql
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Dave Brown
Label sez B/W is actually 10cps or 10Hz, not 100. Could have been used in a 
carrier recovery scheme in a DSB/ISB receiver. These typically had three IF 
filters, one for carrier recovery and one each for USB and LSB.

DaveB, NZ



- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 8:31 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter



Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG








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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Gary Woods
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:31:47 -0700, you wrote:

>What could this have been used
>for, with such a narrow bandwidth?

Removing spurs from a 100Kc standard, perhaps?


-- 
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Magnus Danielson

Hi again Joe,

As I read it, it's a 100 kHz 10 Hz BW filter. Very narrow.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/06/2016 08:31 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG



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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

> On Mar 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> 
> Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
> an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
> about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
> for, with such a narrow bandwidth?
> 
> 

Pilot tone recovery on a FDM system would be one possible answer. Since it’s 
100KHz there could be timing related answers as well.

Bob

> Joe Gray
> W5JG
> <1.jpg><4.jpg>___
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Will Kimber

Hi,

Is that 100Hz por 10cps?  Seems like a CW filter for a 100Khz IF - Ex 
500Khz Marine RX?


Cheers,
Will

On 07/03/16 08:31, Joseph Gray wrote:

Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG


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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

2016-03-06 Thread Magnus Danielson

Hi Joe,

Oh, that one is for CW, to cut away as much noise as possible.

150 and 300 Hz has also been seen.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/06/2016 08:31 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG



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[time-nuts] Positioning Accuracy - Lady Heather vs. T-Bolt Monitor

2016-03-06 Thread johncroos via time-nuts
Hello Time Nuts -My question is --- both LH and T-Bolt Mon will readout 
position during andat the conclusion of a self survey.The readout from LH 
provides 2 additional digits of resolution compared to T-bolt Monitor.That is 
LH provides 7 digits of Lat or Lon to the right of the decimal point; T-bolt 
Mon provides 5.Now with the understanding that one needs to set a relatively 
high elevation andamplitude masks to eliminate all but robust signals, and that 
one must take a lotof samples (48,000 or more) --- Has anyone verified the 
utility of those extra two digits?By utility I mean - is the 6th decimal place 
accurate assuming the above constraints.I am trying to nail a position in 
Longitude to 2 feet or less at a Latitude of 38 degrees N.I have lots of time 
to take lots of survey points so that is not an issue.Best regards   - John 
k6iql
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Re: [time-nuts] Oscope Tutorial

2016-03-06 Thread Tom Van Baak
Perrier -- Ok, I've uploaded your Word/PDF document to Didier's site 
(ko4bb.com).
You can see the pending file under http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/viewlog.pl
At some point KO4BB will approve and move it to the searchable manual download 
area.
I don't know if this takes days or weeks.

In the meantime the document Perrier created is cached at 
http://leapsecond.com/ko4bb/

A raw scan of the original part 1 and part 2 of the document Perrier is 
referring is found at:

http://www.hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1980-03-04.pdf
http://www.hparchive.com/Bench_Briefs/HP-Bench-Briefs-1980-05-06.pdf

If you have time, there are decades of HP archives at:

http://www.hparchive.com/bench_briefs.htm
http://www.hparchive.com/hp_journals.htm
http://www.hparchive.com/periodicals.htm

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 3:55 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Oscope Tutorial


List,


Usedoscilloscopes have gotten to the price where us experimenters can 
affordexcellent ones at reasonable prices (my Tek 200 MHz dual bandwidth 
was<$200).


I wastrained how to use them in the military but many haven't that experience.


Insorting out my papers I found a HP Bench Briefs titled Basic Techniques 
ofWaveform Measurement Using an Oscilloscope published in 1980. It is 
anexcellent article which I have reproduced.


Anywanting a copy contact me off list at sandeenpa yat whahoey.commie after 
iststranslation.



Also would someone post this to the K04BB website? I couldn’t figure out to do 
it when I went there.



Regards,



Perrier 



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[time-nuts] A Very Interesting "Plock"

2016-03-06 Thread Daniel Watson
Hi all,

I saw this article about a hand-made clock, and thought some of you might
enjoy it. Called the Plock (plot clock), it is a 407-piece wooden clock
that writes the time. You really just have to see it in action to
appreciate it.

http://www.ablogtowatch.com/suzuki-kango-plock-wooden-automaton-time-writing-clock/

The accuracy might not be up to time-nuts standards yet, but hopefully we
can excuse that given the remarkable, artistic execution. :)


Best regards,

Dan W.
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Re: [time-nuts] MTI 260-0624-D OCXO

2016-03-06 Thread Magnus Danielson

Mike,

Ouch!

Not opening before they say OK seems like a good strategy.

I just wanted to share that little story even if it doesn't help you.
It was worse when I got a BVA with *crushed* thermo-flask. I was 
actually given a replacement thermo-flask within a few days from OSA.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 03/06/2016 02:15 AM, time...@metachaos.net wrote:

Magnus,

In this case, the rattle is not of light weight pieces, but of a heavy object.
So, I am guessing that the outer oven broke off somehow. Won't really know
until and unless I open it up. The vendor probably won't want it back, but
they might, so I won't touch it until I hear from them.


Mike


Hi,



On 03/05/2016 10:45 PM, time...@metachaos.net wrote:

I got the replacement MTI 260-0624-D OCXO today.

It rattles!



I've seen that on one oscillator. I did a RMA and complained about the
maracas mode, which I had demonstrated to the rep. When it arrived they
wondered what that mean and the rep just smiled and ask them to pick it
up... and it rattle. Turns out that the way they soldered their ovens,
drops of solder could form and get loose, so they changed the process.



Unfortunatly, it is also the failure mode of rough shipping/handling for
some oscillators.



Cheers,
Magnus



I didn't even bother trying to power it up. Not much point. I have not taken
it apart, but have notified the seller. I may disassemble this one as well,
depending on what the seller says.

Mike



I just received a 5Mhz OCXO from eBay (MTI 260-0624-D OCXO). After testing it,
it is clear that it is defective.



 1. It never heats up.



 2. The reference voltage is zero.



 3. Only noise is seen on the output pin.



I tested with a 12.54V, 2A supply voltage with around 30mV noise. That should
be sufficient to test.



All I was looking for was a 5Mhz signal whose frequency changed when the
adjustment pin was either tied to ground or the reference voltage. Never got
that far because I never go a signal at all.



The seller packed it well and shipped it promptly. I will see how he handles
it.




Mike



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