Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Tom Van Baak]

Paul, et al,

1)
The La Crosse 1235UA does indeed receive the new WWVB PSK format. It was first 
brought to our attention by Brooke Clarke some months ago:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-November/101885.html

Prices vary from affordable to lets-see-how-much-we-can-charge, depending on 
the month and source. I bought a couple to measure and tear apart.

As advertised and predicted they set themselves within minutes, at all times of 
day, even under adverse reception conditions. Those of you new to the 
"enhanced" (and mostly backwards-compatible) WWVB format can look at hundreds 
of postings in the time-nuts archives in the past 5 years (google for 
site:febo.com wwvb psk) where we discussed this topic.


2)
The La Crosse movement is made by U.T.S. -- the same German OEM (www.u-t-s.de/) 
that makes the guts of lots of MSF / DCF77 / WWVB / JJY wall clocks. This new 
WWVB-PSK version is quite a bit more complex than the traditional WWVB-AM 
version. Two orthogonal antenna tilted at 45 degrees is one clue; a few more 
CoB (chip on board) is another. It has two steppers; one for hours/minutes and 
one for seconds. Also the usual optical feedback sensor for alignment of gears 
& hands. It uses one or two C-cells and also has an "ECO-mode" switch. Given 
that most WWVB receivers use AA or AAA or even tiny watch-batteries, the need 
for two large C-cells and an optional ECO mode suggests maybe there's a power 
issue.

User manual: 
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/media/catalog/product/4/0/404-1235ua-ss_1.pdf


3)
I'll upload the tear down photos to: http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/

Note also these WWVB/PSK clocks are among the first WWVB clocks I have that 
handle a positive leap second correctly. During the most recent leap second 
(2016-12-31) they paused at :59 for an extra second. See the IMG_3126 video in 
the above directory. The audio track is a Heathkit WWV s/w receiver.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] Line Frequeny Stablity

[Thomas D. Erb]

Thanks for the info.


So that tells me how data is recorded - but not how the frequency is kept 
stable ?

Is the line frequency now directly tied to GPS clock - with no drift ?

Thomas D. Erb
t...@electrictime.com /
Electric Time Company, Inc.
Office: 508-359-4396 x 117 / Fax: 508-359-4482
97 West Street Medfield, MA 02052 USA
www.electrictime.com
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

I have had a Stauer Titanium Atomic wristwatch for 6 years.
 
Never had a problem.  Never have had to set it.  Still on
the original battery.  Automatic DST.  Analog dial
for hours and minutes...  digital display for seconds and
month/date.
 
It is always in step with WWV...  ;-)
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/4/2017 9:01:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
tsho...@gmail.com writes:

I have  been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display  UTC.

They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each  morning
when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the  (non-PSK)
WWVB wall clocks.

The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD  watch for $28 that lasts a couple
years. The face scuffs easily and the  band only lasts a little more than a
year before needing  replacement.

I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio  WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
ago and am very happy. Analog display for  local time, and the LCD display
can show UTC. About $90.

Tim  N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download
anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true
wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well
even in New England.
But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if
I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out
some 2-3 years ago around Christmas.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.
>
> They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
> when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
> WWVB wall clocks.
>
> The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
> years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
> year before needing replacement.
>
> I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
> ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
> can show UTC. About $90.
>
> Tim N3QE
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[time-nuts] HP5061B Peak to Valley Ratios

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-April/104600.html

We did our first Zeeman frequency test on our good cesium 05061-6077
Tube with a 1 Meg scope probe and a 11 Meg Digital Voltmeter in
parallel.  KB7APQ used his digital generator for the variable
frequency.  See paragraph 3-16 on page 3-8.  At 53.53 kc the level
peaked at 3 V peak to peak which is close to the theoretical 1 V rms.
I didn't have a program readily available to do a graph but you can
see the main and upper and lower adjacent peaks. We can compare with
Figure 4-43 (page 4-31) in the service manual for the HP5061B if
anyone can graph this.

We had the C field control at the factory setting of 453.  Our actual
maximum on main peak was 53.657 kc not 53.530 kc.  We got 53.530 kc
with a slightly different new C field setting of 463.  Factor spec is
within 100 cps and we were 127 cps off.  This is probably not a bad
drift for a 30 year old instrument.

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-April/104600.html

kc  beam (C Field set at 453)
55.03  27
54.93  27
54.83  27
54.73  28
54.63  30
54.53  32
54.43  33
54.33  31
54.23  28
54.13  25
54.03  22
53.93  22
53.83  24
53.73  29
53.63  35
53.53  32
53.43  39
53.33  34
53.23  28
53.13  24
53.03  22
52.93  23
52.83  25
52.73  28
52.63 31
52.53 32
52.43  31
52.33  29
52.23  27
52.13  27
52.03  26

We suspect a bad beam tube on our second instrument and therefore
wanted to practice the Low Frequency Coil test on our known good beam
tube.  It allows the performance of the tube to be checked with no rf
drive.  See paragraph 5-175 (page 5-22) We used 26.765 kc and it also
peaked out at 3 V pp.  I discovered that this is half of the Zeeman
frequency but it is not clear why this is so.  We obtained a beam
current of 23 with rf drive removed from the tube by pulling P2 on
A4A1.  I spoke to Corby Dawson last night.  Among many things, he
reported that you will be able to get 80% to 90% of this beam current
in normal lock mode.  We are getting 87% or 20.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV
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Re: [time-nuts] Sinlge ADC multi-band receiver

[jimlux]

On 4/4/17 4:21 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 06:55:24 -0700
jimlux  wrote:



So those folks were trying to use 1 ADC for all three bands, so they had
to choose a sampling rate that lets them separate the signals later in
software.

But that ADC is a MAX104 - a 1GSPS, 8 bit converter - that draws 5 Watts!!!

I'm not sure that's a good trade against a 1 or 2 bit converter for each
band, in terms of the downstream data rate and processing.


Honestly, I don't think the direct sampling approach is a good idea.
It folds a lot of noise into the signal band.


in most of the designs, the noise is from the LNA, and is band limited, 
so the additional noise from the amplifier chain is less. COnsider if 
the LNA has 40dB gain and a 2 dB NF. Let's say all the other amps in the 
chain have 5 dB NF.


The thermal noise into the next amp is -132 dBm/Hz.  In order for the 
5dB NF noise (-169 dBm/Hz) to get up high enough to be noticeable, say, 
30dB, you'd have to fold 1000 times the sampling bandwidth. if the 
sampling bandwidth is 40 MHz, to get the noise up high enough it would 
have to extend to 40 GHz... I'll bet it doesn't





You don't need a 1Gsps ADC for that, but if you want to keep all
frequency bands completely seperate, even after sampling, a relatively
high sampling rate is necessary. L1C/E1OS needs at least 14MHz,
L2C needs 2MHz, E5 needs 50MHz.


I don't think keeping the bands together buys you much - you don't need 
a multibit ADC for a signal that is below the noise floor. (unless 
you're trying to reject strong interference signals, but that's a 
different kind of receiver).






The advantage of such a system would be that there is only a single
path through the system for all signals, especially through the filters.
Thus the variability of the differential phase shift between the
frequency bands would be significantly reduced, which would result
in better stability.


Oh, I'm not sure about that. It would depend on the filter kind and 
topology.


If it's a SAW or BAW filter, it's all one "brick", but I think you'd 
still need to calibrate the differential phase shift vs temp.  And it 
might be very predictable in a "measure 10 of them, and now you know the 
characteristics of the next 1000"



 Of course, that's the theory. Whether things work

out this way in reality is a different question. What can be said for
sure is, because of the high IF frequency of >200MHz, the standard tuner
chips cannot be used anymore and the RX chain has to be build from
"discrete" components,


There's a ton of integrated demodulator/ADC parts out there these days 
that go up to 6GHz.

AD9361 for example

it will do 56 MHz BW through the IF, with 12 bit ADC feeding a 128 tap 
FIR filter, etc.



 which increases the BOM cost quite considerably.



Attila Kinali



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[time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Peak to Valley Ratios

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-April/104600.html

Here is the plot on the Zeeman frequency data that we gathered this
morning.  It is close to Figure 4-43 (page 4-31) in the service manual
for the HP5061B.  Thanks to Jonathon for plotting this.

http://gonascent.com/papers/hp/hp5061/waveform/zeeman.jpg

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Tim Shoppa]

I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.

They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
WWVB wall clocks.

The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
year before needing replacement.

I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
can show UTC. About $90.

Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] TICC resolution...

[Wojciech Owczarek]

Tom,

Thanks for your comments - the plot was really a quick example only. Yes, I
am aware of the TDC7200 method of operation, all I meant to say was that
the 55 ps clusters can be clearly seen, and I was expecting the jitter to
blur the lines somewhat more.

It was a combination of a histogram with a low number of bins, few samples,
and judging by the phase plot I am also suspecting quantisation of the 1PPS
output.

The source is quite stable, although it is being actively GPS+GLN
disciplined. While the 10 MHz and the 1PPS come from the same unit, they do
not come directly from the PRS10, they hit some
CMOS->LVDS->distribution->CMOS and some 74xxx, across different paths, so
all that takes a toll. I have some less complex systems available where
this should be cleaner.

Anyhow, the TICC is proving an invaluable tool for field testing,
calibration, and even cable delay measurement..

...One reaches a whole new level of anal retentiveness once in the sub-100
ps range.

Thanks,
Wojciech



On 4 April 2017 at 23:03, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> Hi Wojciech,
>
> Thanks for sharing your TICC plot. Yes, the periodic peaks show the ~55 ps
> quantization, which is the limiting factor of the TICC's single-shot
> resolution. The TICC is based on the TDC7200 Time-to-Digital Converter
> (TDC) chip, which uses a digital ring oscillator, which a mobius strip-like
> closed loop of an odd number of gates. So this quantization is expected and
> readily measurable with any pair of stable sources.
>
> But I'm not sure why your plot is so ragged. Either you have too few
> samples, or one of your sources is unstable, or maybe the 1PPS is itself
> quantized, or perhaps some low order digits from the TICC are truncated
> before you made your plot.
>
> If you use cleaner sources and longer runs you can get textbook-pretty
> results.
>
> The attached plot is the result of a 30 hour run on a TICC (beta, Nov
> 2016):
> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ticc/ticc-log5342-hist-1.gif
>
> Also attached is what happens if you zoom in a bit:
> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ticc/ticc-log5342-hist-3.gif
>
> In that second plot both the 1 ps granularity of the TICC ascii output and
> the ~55 ps quantization of the TDC7200 chip are visible.
>
> A TICC tends to have slightly better resolution than a hp 53132A but the
> "character" of their resolution is quite different: the TICC has strong
> quantization peaks and the 53132 is more Gaussian; the TICC outputs with 1
> ps resolution (overly optimistic) and the hp rounds to 0.1 ns (probably
> conservative). If you try to push the envelope with better-than-spec
> performance out of a TICC or try to automate channel-channel-reference
> calibration, these details start to matter.
>
> /tvb
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Wojciech Owczarek" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 9:20 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] TICC resolution...
>
>
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-- 
-

Wojciech Owczarek
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TICC boxed (input protection)

[David]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 09:13:34 +1200 (NZST), you wrote:

>A protection diode needs to also have a fast turn on with little or no 
>overshoot of the forward voltage.

That would be ideal but forward turn on time is rarely specified and
usually assumed to be fast and some fast diodes have appallingly slow
turn on.  This is one of those things that needs to be qualified or
selected for if it is important.

I suspect there is some obscure processing issue with diodes that
causes slow turn-on that does not show up in transistors.

>Reverse recovery time can be an issue if one is relying on the clamp for 
>protection against a periodic overload such as when an input is overdriven by 
>a sinewave input and one wishes to make useful measurements whilst this occurs.

Definitely.

>The internal protection diodes of HCMOS devices can severely degrade the 
>device propagation delay jitter when they conduct.
>
>Bruce

They sure can but isn't this because of minority carrier injection?  I
wonder if this is only a problem with junction isolated integrated
circuit processes.  I probably knew at one point but forgot.

Dual and quad analog ICs can suffer from a different problem where
exceeding the common mode input voltage range screws up common bias
circuits causing other elements to malfunction.
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[time-nuts] Sinlge ADC multi-band receiver (was: GPS first LO need to be locked?)

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 06:55:24 -0700
jimlux  wrote:

 
> So those folks were trying to use 1 ADC for all three bands, so they had 
> to choose a sampling rate that lets them separate the signals later in 
> software.
> 
> But that ADC is a MAX104 - a 1GSPS, 8 bit converter - that draws 5 Watts!!!
> 
> I'm not sure that's a good trade against a 1 or 2 bit converter for each 
> band, in terms of the downstream data rate and processing.

Honestly, I don't think the direct sampling approach is a good idea.
It folds a lot of noise into the signal band. I'd rather use a single
heterodyne with an LO frequncy of around 1000MHz, or something between
L2 and E5, such that the bands stay still seperated. Here I would add
a filterbank to get rid of as much noise as possible. And after that
use an ADC sampling frequency to fold the signals down again.
(Effectively forming a super-heterodyne receiver)

You don't need a 1Gsps ADC for that, but if you want to keep all
frequency bands completely seperate, even after sampling, a relatively
high sampling rate is necessary. L1C/E1OS needs at least 14MHz,
L2C needs 2MHz, E5 needs 50MHz. Ie to keep them separated, at least
66MHz of (un-aliased) bandwidth or a sample rate of 132Msps is needed
(alternatively, an I/Q ADC with 66Msps). There are plenty of ADCs
that go up to 120Msps with 10-14bits resolution available, and a couple
that go higher (up to 200MHz are easy to find). 8bit ADCs with >100Msps
are available, but not so many with >120Msps. So, it should be "easy"
to build such a system, if one can find a nice pair of LO frequency
and sampling rate. Alternatively, if one can accept a slightly decreased
SNR one can choose a pair of frequencies where all the signals fall ontop
of eachother, making the 50MHz of E5 the only real requriement. My guess
would be that the CDMA character of the codes would make them easily
seperatable, resulting in an (additional) SNR los of maybe 1-3dB, which
can be compensated by using an ADC with 8bit or even 12bit instead of
the 2-4bit that are now common for GPS receivers. The frequency requirement
can further reduced if one drops the E5b signal and just works with the E5a.
Then 21MHz of bandwidth would be enough.

Looking at the frequency band values, an LO frequency between
1367MHz (L1C touches E5) and 1405MHz (L1C touches L2) would be
the most sensible range. The IF would be below 240MHz and it
seems like the maximum needed bandwidth would be around 70MHz
(eyeballing the graph, no real calculation). I'd say the best
compromise would be using an LO of 1398MHz (IF=170-230MHz)
and using a sampling rate between 120Msps and 160Msps.

The advantage of such a system would be that there is only a single
path through the system for all signals, especially through the filters.
Thus the variability of the differential phase shift between the
frequency bands would be significantly reduced, which would result
in better stability. Of course, that's the theory. Whether things work
out this way in reality is a different question. What can be said for
sure is, because of the high IF frequency of >200MHz, the standard tuner
chips cannot be used anymore and the RX chain has to be build from
"discrete" components, which increases the BOM cost quite considerably.


Attila Kinali

-- 
You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
They don't alters their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to
fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the
facts that needs altering.  -- The Doctor
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to
any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)

Bob



This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC.
Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well.
Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder
and could not display UTC.

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, paul swed writes:

>I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La
>Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the
>technical quality of these products.

They're probably based around one of C-max chips:

http://www.c-max-time.com/products/showProduct.php?id=17

(This is the old Temic technology that has wandered all over the place...)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to 
any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)

Bob

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 4:54 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> I was in a walmart the other day and noticed that there were numbers of
> atomic clocks. Thought the fad had died off due to lots of reasons.
> 
> I was curious did those magical supa-dupa atomic clocks that screwed the
> old phase tracking receivers ever arrive? Son of a gun they did. I must
> have missed the 6 pm news story on this technology. Pretty sure we all did.
> 
> Anyhow humor aside at least one clock from La Crosse does exist.
> 404-1235ua for $79. Seems steep but then again these clocks do use the
> phase code and do not care about the orientation. They have 2 antennas at
> 90 degrees and they select the best signal.
> I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La
> Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the
> technical quality of these products.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] TICC resolution...

[Tom Van Baak]

Hi Wojciech,

Thanks for sharing your TICC plot. Yes, the periodic peaks show the ~55 ps 
quantization, which is the limiting factor of the TICC's single-shot 
resolution. The TICC is based on the TDC7200 Time-to-Digital Converter (TDC) 
chip, which uses a digital ring oscillator, which a mobius strip-like closed 
loop of an odd number of gates. So this quantization is expected and readily 
measurable with any pair of stable sources.

But I'm not sure why your plot is so ragged. Either you have too few samples, 
or one of your sources is unstable, or maybe the 1PPS is itself quantized, or 
perhaps some low order digits from the TICC are truncated before you made your 
plot.

If you use cleaner sources and longer runs you can get textbook-pretty results.

The attached plot is the result of a 30 hour run on a TICC (beta, Nov 2016):
http://leapsecond.com/pages/ticc/ticc-log5342-hist-1.gif

Also attached is what happens if you zoom in a bit:
http://leapsecond.com/pages/ticc/ticc-log5342-hist-3.gif

In that second plot both the 1 ps granularity of the TICC ascii output and the 
~55 ps quantization of the TDC7200 chip are visible.

A TICC tends to have slightly better resolution than a hp 53132A but the 
"character" of their resolution is quite different: the TICC has strong 
quantization peaks and the 53132 is more Gaussian; the TICC outputs with 1 ps 
resolution (overly optimistic) and the hp rounds to 0.1 ns (probably 
conservative). If you try to push the envelope with better-than-spec 
performance out of a TICC or try to automate channel-channel-reference 
calibration, these details start to matter.

/tvb


- Original Message - 
From: "Wojciech Owczarek" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2017 9:20 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] TICC resolution...


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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TICC boxed (input protection)

[Bruce Griffiths]

A protection diode needs to also have a fast turn on with little or no 
overshoot of the forward voltage. 

Reverse recovery time can be an issue if one is relying on the clamp for 
protection against a periodic overload such as when an input is overdriven by a 
sinewave input and one wishes to make useful measurements whilst this occurs.

The internal protection diodes of HCMOS devices can severely degrade the device 
propagation delay jitter when they conduct.

Bruce
> On 05 April 2017 at 06:05 David  wrote:
> 
> 
> Low current measurements take a lot of time on the automatic test
> equipment and time in this case is measured in seconds.  The same
> applies to low frequency noise.
> 
> For an example, take a look at the National (now TI) LMC6001 and
> LMC6081:
> 
> https://goo.gl/LCY2vR
> 
> Unlike National, TI does not care about input bias current in their
> selection guides so you will have to look that up in the datasheets:
> 
> http://www.ti.com/product/lmc6001
> http://www.ti.com/product/lmc6081
> 
> The difference in the parts is that the LMC6001 is tested for an Ib of
> 25fA and below and this is reflected in the price which is $5.76
> instead of the $0.83 of the LMC6081.
> 
> Right about the time that the LMC6001 was released, Robert Pease wrote
> some articles talking about the bias current testing and the
> economics.
> 
> The same thing applies to all of those small signal transistors with
> 25, 50, and 100nA leakage specifications.  Those numbers are simply
> good enough for typical applications and what the tester can handle in
> the time allotted and have nothing to do with the actual transistor
> performance.
> 
> So collector-base junctions make good low leakage high voltage diodes
> although they are slow which does not normally matter for an input
> protection circuit and may even be preferable.  Emitter-base junctions
> make good low leakage fast diodes but with low breakdown voltages.
> 
> The cheapest guaranteed low leakage diode is probably some variety of
> 4117/4118/4119 n-channel JFET.
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[time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

I was in a walmart the other day and noticed that there were numbers of
atomic clocks. Thought the fad had died off due to lots of reasons.

I was curious did those magical supa-dupa atomic clocks that screwed the
old phase tracking receivers ever arrive? Son of a gun they did. I must
have missed the 6 pm news story on this technology. Pretty sure we all did.

Anyhow humor aside at least one clock from La Crosse does exist.
404-1235ua for $79. Seems steep but then again these clocks do use the
phase code and do not care about the orientation. They have 2 antennas at
90 degrees and they select the best signal.
I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La
Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the
technical quality of these products.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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[time-nuts] Cesium oven and filament PIX

[cdelect]

Attached is a PIX showing (CW from top left) the:
>ionizer filament
>Oven filaments (STD oven)
>standard oven assy
>high perm oven assy

The HiPerf oven filament is the sealed spiral wound tube on the face of
the oven.
 
The posts on the top edge of the ovens is the connection to burn a hole
in the burst disc to release the Cesium once the tube is pumped down..
 
Cheers,
 
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TICC boxed (input protection)

[David]

Low current measurements take a lot of time on the automatic test
equipment and time in this case is measured in seconds.  The same
applies to low frequency noise.

For an example, take a look at the National (now TI) LMC6001 and
LMC6081:

https://goo.gl/LCY2vR

Unlike National, TI does not care about input bias current in their
selection guides so you will have to look that up in the datasheets:

http://www.ti.com/product/lmc6001
http://www.ti.com/product/lmc6081

The difference in the parts is that the LMC6001 is tested for an Ib of
25fA and below and this is reflected in the price which is $5.76
instead of the $0.83 of the LMC6081.

Right about the time that the LMC6001 was released, Robert Pease wrote
some articles talking about the bias current testing and the
economics.

The same thing applies to all of those small signal transistors with
25, 50, and 100nA leakage specifications.  Those numbers are simply
good enough for typical applications and what the tester can handle in
the time allotted and have nothing to do with the actual transistor
performance.

So collector-base junctions make good low leakage high voltage diodes
although they are slow which does not normally matter for an input
protection circuit and may even be preferable.  Emitter-base junctions
make good low leakage fast diodes but with low breakdown voltages.

The cheapest guaranteed low leakage diode is probably some variety of
4117/4118/4119 n-channel JFET.
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[time-nuts] TICC resolution...

[Wojciech Owczarek]

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[time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Mark Sims]

Lady Heather can work with the Jupiter receivers in either NMEA or Zodiac 
(binary) mode.  Heather checks time stamps for consistency and flags any that 
are out of sequence.  I usually run it in binary mode.  It's been a while since 
I ran mine, but I don't remember ever seeing any skips.  The Jupiter receivers 
do have the odd "feature" of having the time stamps off by a second.

I have seen several early GPS receivers that do have issues with generating 
consecutive time stamps.  It is caused by the receiver processor not having 
enough speed to always complete all the calculations within a 1 second 
interval. 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. I've ordered some NOS 4011s (made by
National Semi, mildly ironic since I used to work there) and some
supposedly round pin sockets (the reviews were mixed—some folks got good
stuff, some got junk).

I'll update the thread once I have everything here and installed.

Jeremy


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM Tom Miller  wrote:

> Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the
> non-replaceable PC board.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David C. Partridge" 
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> 
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
>
>
> > You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about
> > 15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> > Nichols
> > Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
> >
> > I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both
> > the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard
> > (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without
> > updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons
> work
> > but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The
> > DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other
> > switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T
> > logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.
> > The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
> > components) and I see no other problems (yet).
> >
> > Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on
> > the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP
> > package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and
> > appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list
> >  commented that the 4000 series
> CMOS
> > chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in
> > production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find
> > to buy may be DOA.
> >
> > Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the
> > group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series
> CMOS
> > family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If
> > the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
> >
> > Jeremy, N6WFO
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 04/04/2017 05:47 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi



On Apr 4, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Bo Hansen  wrote:

Hi all

The data can be a bit hard to read in an email. So I will give it another try.

PC-time | Diff. | GPS-time | Diff.
...
011606.005 | 0.992 | 011604 |1
011607.013 | 1.008 | 011605 |1
011608.005 | 0.992 | 011607 |2 <--- The issue
011609.013 | 1.008 | 011608 |1
011610.004 | 0.991 | 011609 |1
...

I used a terminal program to log the NMEA data to a file and do the PC timestamp. 
Calculations were done in a spreadsheet by me. The PC-time is kept under control by 
Meinberg and also OK vs.  during the time of observation.

The PC-timestamp wobble is not the issue. It is a combination of the PC-time 
itself and the NMEA wobble. Nobody should expect the NMEA data to come at the 
same time every time relative to the 1 PPS. As Björn correctly points out it is 
always late and wobbles with processor load.

Sometimes the 2-something lag can last for many hours - I have seen more than 
48 h.

The issue is the "seconds jump". The issue is not the relative difference between the 
PC-time and the GPS-time but the jump, e.g. using Tac32 reveals that the TU30 is always ~1200 ms 
late on in case of the "jump second" ~2300 ms late.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Week 1024 Syndrome?


We are roughly 2 years away from the next week 1023 to week 0 GPS rollover 
point. If you see this multiple times in a 20 year period
it is not a 1024 week issue ….


The 1024 week issue exist in several shifted variants. A single receiver 
with a particular firmware would only experience one of them thought, 
typically. It would manifest itself as 1024 weeks offset in date, but 
everything else would work, it's just that the display date would get 
offset.


Bob, there is a report somewhere that explains it. :)

The second error you have there has likely some other source. Processing 
scheduling could get wrong for instance. There is a few things to be 
careful about to get a good solid result. It is not surprising if this 
was not rock solid for all implementations back in the days.


Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[bg]

Hi Bob & Bo,
This was discussed a long time ago on 
    http://www.gpskit.nl/forum/
which is defunced since many years. To measure the delay I suggest setting it 
up as a NMEA refclock to ntpd. But fudge it so that it is only collecting data 
to watch and log the offsets. IIRC delays for the receiver I had was 1013ms or 
2013ms in NMEA-mode.
1024 wk issues are not related to this. And as discussed many times in the 
archives. Rx firmware programmers often checked dates to see if they were older 
than say the firmware release date. If so they added 1024wk. Thus the magic 
rollover-dates are often not the actual problem dates.
--
     Björn

Sent from my smartphone.
 Original message From: Bob kb8tq  Date: 
04/04/2017  17:47  (GMT+01:00) To: timen...@rudius.net, Discussion of precise 
time and frequency measurement  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 
TU30 jump second 
Hi


> On Apr 4, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Bo Hansen  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> The data can be a bit hard to read in an email. So I will give it another try.
> 
> PC-time | Diff. | GPS-time | Diff.
> ...
> 011606.005 | 0.992 | 011604 |1
> 011607.013 | 1.008 | 011605 |1
> 011608.005 | 0.992 | 011607 |2 <--- The issue
> 011609.013 | 1.008 | 011608 |1
> 011610.004 | 0.991 | 011609 |1
> ...
> 
> I used a terminal program to log the NMEA data to a file and do the PC 
> timestamp. Calculations were done in a spreadsheet by me. The PC-time is kept 
> under control by Meinberg and also OK vs.  during the 
> time of observation.
> 
> The PC-timestamp wobble is not the issue. It is a combination of the PC-time 
> itself and the NMEA wobble. Nobody should expect the NMEA data to come at the 
> same time every time relative to the 1 PPS. As Björn correctly points out it 
> is always late and wobbles with processor load.
> 
> Sometimes the 2-something lag can last for many hours - I have seen more than 
> 48 h.
> 
> The issue is the "seconds jump". The issue is not the relative difference 
> between the PC-time and the GPS-time but the jump, e.g. using Tac32 reveals 
> that the TU30 is always ~1200 ms late on in case of the "jump second" ~2300 
> ms late.
> 
> I wonder if it has anything to do with the Week 1024 Syndrome?

We are roughly 2 years away from the next week 1023 to week 0 GPS rollover 
point. If you see this multiple times in a 20 year period
it is not a 1024 week issue ….

Bob

> 
> Indeed the TU30 is a old device. I guess some 30 years if not more looking at 
> the components. F/W I have no idea.
> 
> The 10 kHz seems unaffected.
> 
> Bo
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi


> On Apr 4, 2017, at 10:01 AM, Bo Hansen  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> The data can be a bit hard to read in an email. So I will give it another try.
> 
> PC-time | Diff. | GPS-time | Diff.
> ...
> 011606.005 | 0.992 | 011604 |1
> 011607.013 | 1.008 | 011605 |1
> 011608.005 | 0.992 | 011607 |2 <--- The issue
> 011609.013 | 1.008 | 011608 |1
> 011610.004 | 0.991 | 011609 |1
> ...
> 
> I used a terminal program to log the NMEA data to a file and do the PC 
> timestamp. Calculations were done in a spreadsheet by me. The PC-time is kept 
> under control by Meinberg and also OK vs.  during the 
> time of observation.
> 
> The PC-timestamp wobble is not the issue. It is a combination of the PC-time 
> itself and the NMEA wobble. Nobody should expect the NMEA data to come at the 
> same time every time relative to the 1 PPS. As Björn correctly points out it 
> is always late and wobbles with processor load.
> 
> Sometimes the 2-something lag can last for many hours - I have seen more than 
> 48 h.
> 
> The issue is the "seconds jump". The issue is not the relative difference 
> between the PC-time and the GPS-time but the jump, e.g. using Tac32 reveals 
> that the TU30 is always ~1200 ms late on in case of the "jump second" ~2300 
> ms late.
> 
> I wonder if it has anything to do with the Week 1024 Syndrome?

We are roughly 2 years away from the next week 1023 to week 0 GPS rollover 
point. If you see this multiple times in a 20 year period
it is not a 1024 week issue ….

Bob

> 
> Indeed the TU30 is a old device. I guess some 30 years if not more looking at 
> the components. F/W I have no idea.
> 
> The 10 kHz seems unaffected.
> 
> Bo
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Line Frequeny Stablity

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

It's based on UTC, as derived from GPS.

I think you will find the following NASPI report of interest:
https://www.naspi.org/node/608

You will find maps over the regions too!

While NASPI is PMU/synchro-phasor focused, older equipment use GPS too 
for phase capture.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 04/04/2017 03:33 PM, Thomas D. Erb wrote:

I was wondering if anyone knew how the US power grids control their line 
frequency with respect to time ?


There seems to be four separate grids - Eastern, Texas, Western and Quebec - 
but I have no idea how they get their time.






Thomas D. Erb
t...@electrictime.com /
Electric Time Company, Inc.
Office: 508-359-4396 x 117 / Fax: 508-359-4482
97 West Street Medfield, MA 02052 USA
www.electrictime.com
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?

[paul swed]

Perhaps someone could start a new thread with a different title since this
has evolved to something else then my request.
By the way the response to my question was answered by the group and its
true the first LO does not need to be locked for at least code tracking. I
really didn't prove its needed for carrier tracking.
Thanks everyone.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:55 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 4/3/17 9:32 PM, Logan Cummings wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>>
>> I was able to find [2] here:
>> http://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/gpslab/pubs/papers/Akos_
>> IONGPS_2003_3FreqRX.pdf
>>
>>
>
> So those folks were trying to use 1 ADC for all three bands, so they had
> to choose a sampling rate that lets them separate the signals later in
> software.
>
> But that ADC is a MAX104 - a 1GSPS, 8 bit converter - that draws 5 Watts!!!
>
> I'm not sure that's a good trade against a 1 or 2 bit converter for each
> band, in terms of the downstream data rate and processing.
>
>
>
>
>
> [3] was harder, and I don't have a link but a google search for the title
>> in quotes got me a link on semanticscholar that let me download the PDF.
>>
>> Interesting stuff!
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> -Logan
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:17 AM, David C. Partridge <
>> david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> links [2] and [3] give 404 errors
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Attila
>>> Kinali
>>> Sent: 31 March 2017 12:35
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?
>>>
>>>  [2] "A Prototyping Platform for Multi-Frequency GNSS Receivers", by
>>> Akos,
>>> Ene and Thor, 2003 http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/
>>> AkosIONGPS033FreqRX.pdf
>>>
>>> [3] "Design of a GPS and Galileo Multi-Frequency Front-End", by Parada,
>>> Chastellain, Botteron, Tawk, Farine, 2009 http://202.194.20.8/proc/
>>> VTC09Spring/DATA/04-04-01.PDF
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Bo Hansen]

Hi all

The data can be a bit hard to read in an email. So I will give it another try.

PC-time | Diff. | GPS-time | Diff.
...
011606.005 | 0.992 | 011604 |1
011607.013 | 1.008 | 011605 |1
011608.005 | 0.992 | 011607 |2 <--- The issue
011609.013 | 1.008 | 011608 |1
011610.004 | 0.991 | 011609 |1
...

I used a terminal program to log the NMEA data to a file and do the PC 
timestamp. Calculations were done in a spreadsheet by me. The PC-time is kept 
under control by Meinberg and also OK vs.  during the time 
of observation.

The PC-timestamp wobble is not the issue. It is a combination of the PC-time 
itself and the NMEA wobble. Nobody should expect the NMEA data to come at the 
same time every time relative to the 1 PPS. As Björn correctly points out it is 
always late and wobbles with processor load.

Sometimes the 2-something lag can last for many hours - I have seen more than 
48 h.

The issue is the "seconds jump". The issue is not the relative difference 
between the PC-time and the GPS-time but the jump, e.g. using Tac32 reveals 
that the TU30 is always ~1200 ms late on in case of the "jump second" ~2300 ms 
late.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the Week 1024 Syndrome?

Indeed the TU30 is a old device. I guess some 30 years if not more looking at 
the components. F/W I have no idea.

The 10 kHz seems unaffected.

Bo

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[time-nuts] Line Frequeny Stablity

[Thomas D. Erb]

I was wondering if anyone knew how the US power grids control their line 
frequency with respect to time ?


There seems to be four separate grids - Eastern, Texas, Western and Quebec - 
but I have no idea how they get their time.






Thomas D. Erb
t...@electrictime.com /
Electric Time Company, Inc.
Office: 508-359-4396 x 117 / Fax: 508-359-4482
97 West Street Medfield, MA 02052 USA
www.electrictime.com
[Facebook][Twitter][pinterest]
[htmlsig.com]

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Re: [time-nuts] Conversion of Stanford PRS10 to RS-232 Communication

[Philip Jackson]

Many thanks for the steer.  I was getting hung up on the reference to
jumpers.  I'll order the 240R and 3K9 SMD resistors (per the Rev H parts
list) and see how it goes.
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?

[jimlux]

On 4/3/17 9:32 PM, Logan Cummings wrote:

Dave,

I was able to find [2] here:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/gpslab/pubs/papers/Akos_IONGPS_2003_3FreqRX.pdf




So those folks were trying to use 1 ADC for all three bands, so they had 
to choose a sampling rate that lets them separate the signals later in 
software.


But that ADC is a MAX104 - a 1GSPS, 8 bit converter - that draws 5 Watts!!!

I'm not sure that's a good trade against a 1 or 2 bit converter for each 
band, in terms of the downstream data rate and processing.







[3] was harder, and I don't have a link but a google search for the title
in quotes got me a link on semanticscholar that let me download the PDF.

Interesting stuff!

Hope that helps,
-Logan

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:17 AM, David C. Partridge <
david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:


links [2] and [3] give 404 errors

Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Attila
Kinali
Sent: 31 March 2017 12:35
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?

 [2] "A Prototyping Platform for Multi-Frequency GNSS Receivers", by Akos,
Ene and Thor, 2003 http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/
AkosIONGPS033FreqRX.pdf

[3] "Design of a GPS and Galileo Multi-Frequency Front-End", by Parada,
Chastellain, Botteron, Tawk, Farine, 2009 http://202.194.20.8/proc/
VTC09Spring/DATA/04-04-01.PDF


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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Björn Gabrielsson]

Hi Bo,

Are you getting data in binary format [1] or NMEA? The NMEA mode for some
Jupiter receivers are known to behave badly in NMEA-mode. The delay would
go from 1:ish to 2:ish seconds depending on signal processing load.

--

 Björn

[1] Navman/Jupiter/Conexant/Zodiac/Rockwell binary... 
http://aprs.gids.nl/gpskit/documents/rockwell/iospec_w708.pdf


> Hi List
>
> Like many of you I also use a Navman Jupiter TU30 in a GPSDO. Besides the
> 10 kHz used for the PLL I also have a display showing time. But since a
> couple of years, Jan 15?, the time sometimes jumps -1 s and and then later
> returns by jumping +1 s Please see an example of the latter below:
>
> PC-time Diff. GPS-time Diff
> ...
> 011606.005 0.992 011604 1
> 011607.013 1.008 011605 1
> 011608.005 0.992 011607 2 <--- The issue
> 011609.013 1.008 011608 1
> 011610.004 0.991 011609 1
> ...
>
> I don't experience the same with a ublox GPS. I don't think I saw this
> more than two years ago and wonder if the GPS satellites send some
> correction data that the rather old TU30 misinterpret?
>
> Any clues?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Bo
>
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Welcome to the ever growing list of people with buggy GPS modules. One thing 
that makes
this stuff tough to track down is the firmware. A lot of these parts went out 
with various revs
of the standard firmware. Some of them went out with specific customized 
versions of the
firmware. Since most of the trouble looks like code errors, mine (with version 
6.5.4.3.2.1a2)
may be fine and yours (with version 6.5.4.3.2.1a2a) may be horrid. 

While it is tempting to find “new” firmware and blast away, that may not be the 
best approach. 
Some of these modules went through minor hardware changes over the years. The 
stuff with
custom firmware often pukes in odd ways when standard firmware is loaded. 
Getting back to the
“original” firmware in your part after re-flashing is rarely possible ….

Bob

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 5:27 AM, Bo Hansen  wrote:
> 
> Hi List
> 
> Like many of you I also use a Navman Jupiter TU30 in a GPSDO. Besides the 10 
> kHz used for the PLL I also have a display showing time. But since a couple 
> of years, Jan 15?, the time sometimes jumps -1 s and and then later returns 
> by jumping +1 s Please see an example of the latter below:
> 
> PC-time Diff. GPS-time Diff
> ...
> 011606.005 0.992 011604 1
> 011607.013 1.008 011605 1
> 011608.005 0.992 011607 2 <--- The issue
> 011609.013 1.008 011608 1
> 011610.004 0.991 011609 1
> ...
> 
> I don't experience the same with a ublox GPS. I don't think I saw this more 
> than two years ago and wonder if the GPS satellites send some correction data 
> that the rather old TU30 misinterpret?
> 
> Any clues?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Bo
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Bo Hansen]

Hi

The odd behavior is seen in NMEA mode. I have not tried in binary mode.

Bo


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[time-nuts] TU30 jump second

[Bo Hansen]

Hi List

Like many of you I also use a Navman Jupiter TU30 in a GPSDO. Besides the 10 
kHz used for the PLL I also have a display showing time. But since a couple of 
years, Jan 15?, the time sometimes jumps -1 s and and then later returns by 
jumping +1 s Please see an example of the latter below:

PC-time Diff. GPS-time Diff
...
011606.005 0.992 011604 1
011607.013 1.008 011605 1
011608.005 0.992 011607 2 <--- The issue
011609.013 1.008 011608 1
011610.004 0.991 011609 1
...

I don't experience the same with a ublox GPS. I don't think I saw this more 
than two years ago and wonder if the GPS satellites send some correction data 
that the rather old TU30 misinterpret?

Any clues?

Thanks in advance
Bo

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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TICC boxed

[Bruce Griffiths]

http://www.spacetechexpo.eu/assets/files/2015/Recent-Developments-in-Phase-Stable-Cables.pdf

is a more readily accessible source of data on coax cable delay tempco et.

Bruce

> 
> On 04 April 2017 at 00:13 Bruce Griffiths  
> wrote:
> 
> Copper jacketed low density PTFE insulated coax cables typically exhibit 
> a net phase change of over 1000ppm during the PTFE phase transition. See 
> figure 2 p14 of the Cables and connectors supplement to March 2017 microwave 
> journal. Solid PTFE insulated cables exhibit an even greater (2 -3x) phase 
> change. to achieve a phase shift tempco of 10ppm/C either hermetically selaed 
> silicon dioxide powder insulated coax or "phase tracking" semirigid or better 
> phase tracking flexible coax is required.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> > > 
> > On 03 April 2017 at 21:22 Attila Kinali  wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:05:55 +1200 (NZST)
> > Bruce Griffiths  wrote:
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > For even more fun you could try to detect the PTFE 
> > > > phase change at around 20C using a cable with PTFE dielectric.
> > > > 
> > > > This will require several 100 meters of cable to be 
> > > > measureable with
> > > > the TICC. Modern cables are all <500ppm/K, good cables 
> > > > <10ppm/K, phase
> > > > stable cables reach even <1ppm/K. Measuring a change of 
> > > > 10ppm with
> > > > a resolution of 60ps means that the delay has to be in 
> > > > the order of 6µs,
> > > > which is close to 1000m of cable. Even if dithering 
> > > > gives another facor
> > > > of 10, this still means 100m of cable.
> > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > For this level of comparison I would suggest to use a sinusoidal 
> > signal,
> > instead of a pulse, and do phase comparison, which gives a 
> > resolution
> > in the order of 1ps with very little effort, thus reducing the 
> > required
> > cable length to 10-20 meters.
> > 
> > Attila Kinali
> > 
> > [1] "Temperature Stability of Coaxial Cables", Czuba and Sikora, 
> > 2011
> > http://przyrbwn.icm.edu.pl/APP/PDF/119/a119z4p17.pdf
> > 
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of 
> > no
> > use without that foundation.
> > -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > 
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> > 
> > > 
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[time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Mark Sims]

I have dozens of thingies with 4000 series CMOS in them.   Yes, chips can fail 
regardless of the logic family type.  I have not noticed anything particularly 
bad about 4000 series.  In fact, I have seldom needed to replace any.
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[time-nuts] oscillator data wanted

[Dave Brown]

Unit in question is a CTS Knights 970-4302-1  on 10 MHz. (Has an HP part no.
as well, 1813- 0835-1). Any data  out there?  Only draws ~ 15mA from a 12
volt supply so it's not an OCXO?
DaveB, NZ




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tom Miller]

Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the 
non-replaceable PC board.


- Original Message - 
From: "David C. Partridge" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about 
15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.


Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Nichols

Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both 
the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard 
(GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without 
updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work 
but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The 
DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other 
switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T 
logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.

The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
components) and I see no other problems (yet).

Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
 commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find 
to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If 
the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?

[Logan Cummings]

Dave,

I was able to find [2] here:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/scpnt/gpslab/pubs/papers/Akos_IONGPS_2003_3FreqRX.pdf

[3] was harder, and I don't have a link but a google search for the title
in quotes got me a link on semanticscholar that let me download the PDF.

Interesting stuff!

Hope that helps,
-Logan

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:17 AM, David C. Partridge <
david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

> links [2] and [3] give 404 errors
>
> Dave
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Attila
> Kinali
> Sent: 31 March 2017 12:35
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS first LO need to be locked?
>
>  [2] "A Prototyping Platform for Multi-Frequency GNSS Receivers", by Akos,
> Ene and Thor, 2003 http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/
> AkosIONGPS033FreqRX.pdf
>
> [3] "Design of a GPS and Galileo Multi-Frequency Front-End", by Parada,
> Chastellain, Botteron, Tawk, Farine, 2009 http://202.194.20.8/proc/
> VTC09Spring/DATA/04-04-01.PDF
>
>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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