[time-nuts] Fluke PM6681 'fault' or 'characteristic'?
I was comparing my Sulzer 2.5 to my Efratom FRT and saw something very odd. I don't know if my PM6681 has developed a fault or if I'm just measuring two oscillators that are good enought to show oddities in my measurement system. When the phase of the two signals drifts through zero, the measurement gets noisy. The levels are very low as you can see in the attached graph. Without the averaging, you can barely see anything. But the degradation is significant. I've checked my counter and can't find anything wrong. Power supplies are clean. I've worked through the voltage tests and adjustments in the service manual. Nothing was out of adjustment and nothing improved. Does this look like a fault or is it just another reason to avoid phase wraps and the dead zone around zero degrees? Thanks, Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lady Heather and Lucent RFTGm-II-XO / RFTGm-II-R
I have finally managed to decode the RFTG-m voltages message and have all the values except antenna current... that is apparently hidden away in one of the other receiver messages. As far as calculating sat positions for the receiver... the main issue is getting the current almanac and ephemeris if the receiver does not provide them. I don't want to make Heather dependent upon sucking in data from the web somewhere. MANY years ago, I wrote the firmware for the (redacted) GPS receiver, so I have done the orbital math before... no fun and royal PITA to verify. As far as calculating your position from the displayed data if the location is shown as "private", things like az/el are only displayed to 0.1 degrees at the most and time to a second (OK, you can show it to milliseconds). Also the doppler, etc have a fairly low resolution. I don't think you could get less than a few square miles of uncertainty... good enough privacy for most people. The next version of Heather can trim the sat info display to just show az/el/snr and not show the doppler, etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105500.html We recently did a partial alignment of the lock servo on our #2 HP5061B after replacing the beam tube. The previous owner had tried to fix it by turning adjustments. This made a big improvement in the lock. KB7APQ got the idea to use the audio spectrum analyzer in his I Phone to measure the noise output of the beam tube. We used the Beam I meter driver emitter follower for an audio source. It provides about 0.4 Volts per 25 uA on the meter. A 100 ohm safety resistor was in series with Q6 emitter on the A7 board. It was followed by a 100 nFd condenser into the 100 k input impedance of the I phone. Low frequency cutoff is about 16 cps. See http://gonascent.com/papers/hp/hp5061/waveform/spectrum.jpg . Start frequency is 4 cps and each bin is 8 cps wide. Center frequency of each bin is 8 cps higher than the one before it. Frequency and amplitude are both logarithmic. Amplitude is 12 db per division. The first three bands show the low frequency rolloff of the coupling condenser. Five harmonics of the 137 cps modulation frequency can be seen. For unknown reasons, a sharp null in the noise of about 2 db at 137 cps is seen. The servo nulls the 137 cps there but I can't see how the noise could be nulled. The prominent second harmonic at 274 cps is normal. It measures -74 db below reference. I calculated it at about 0.15 V pp or 53 mV rms. The third harmonic at 411 cps again shows up as a 2 db noise null for unknown reasons.The fourth harmonic at 548 cps cannot be seen. The fifth harmonic at 685 cps barely breaks thru the lower limit of the spectrum analyzer. It looks like rectifier pulse harmonics can be seen at 120 cps. They may be getting thru the mu metal shields of the beam tube. That frequency is right on the border of two bins. 360 cps third harmonic of rectifier pulses can be seen. It appears in the middle of a bin. An unknown signal is seen at 564 cps. This could be the +3500 power supply frequency. 1 cps bandwidth noise in the 50 to 100 cps area seems to be about 20 db below the 274 cps second harmonic. This will determine the possible lock improvement with improved modulation methods. πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ WB0KV -- Forwarded message -- From: Bob kb8tq Date: Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Hi Having run a 5071A with a *very* good 10811 in it, the OCXO does dictate what happens at 0.1 seconds. Once you get past that, you are headed into a bit of a gray zone. You are partly looking at the Cs and partly looking at the OCXO. Pushing out the crossover between the two could help you at 1 second. The gotcha is that the “hump” will still be there, just a bit further out. The net effect at (say) 100 seconds could easily be worse with the “fix”. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Another hp Oven For Sale
Greetings, The dealer noted below had another hp oven for sale at the W6TRW Ham Swap meet in Redondo Beach, CA., on May 27th. The unit is a cylinder about a foot long and 5 inches in diameter with sma-size connectors and four shock-mounts attached to the sides. It is marked: Crystal Oven Model 00106-6015 An attached paper tag notes: Inner Oven Defective The asking price is $100.00 Pictures here: http://files.ni6e.com/hp-106/ I have no financial interest in any transactions that take place. You must deal with the owner directly. ApTec Electronics P.O. Box 101 El Segundo, CA 90245 Stu Aplin Owner (310) 640 7262 s...@aptecelectronics.com http://www.aptecelectronics.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase
Hi The gotcha with carrier phase is that it is a bit more sensitive to local signals than your ear is. Yes, a lot depends on your antenna setup and as you mention, just how many watts of distribution and thousands of feet of cable you are running 10 MHz through. Bob > On May 29, 2017, at 11:00 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs > via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my > dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-). > > This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be > 15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too. > > I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that > into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one > channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could > monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave > from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow > me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock. > > I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this. > I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging > serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-). > > Tim N3QE > > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > >> Hi >> >> There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty >> cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive >> setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external >> clock >> input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10 >> MHz. >> Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I >> would aim >> at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules >> out >> 15 MHz :) >> >> Bob >> >> >> >>> On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> >>> During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day >>> shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC, >>> using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred >> microseconds >>> of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago. >>> >>> Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years >>> too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio >>> refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that >> would >>> let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. >> If I >>> could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an >> ionospheric >>> effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path >>> from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my >>> location. >>> >>> Tim N3QE >>> >>> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts < >> time-nuts@febo.com wrote: >>> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or >> that. One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or >> not solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/ >> journal/v402/n6763/full/ 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using >> its plenty of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe >> that this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that >> atomic clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great interest).Antonio I8IOV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase
Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-). This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be 15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too. I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock. I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this. I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-). Tim N3QE On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: > Hi > > There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty > cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive > setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external > clock > input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10 > MHz. > Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I > would aim > at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules > out > 15 MHz :) > > Bob > > > > > On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day > > shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC, > > using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred > microseconds > > of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago. > > > > Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years > > too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio > > refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that > would > > let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. > If I > > could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an > ionospheric > > effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path > > from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my > > location. > > > > Tim N3QE > > > > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts < > time-nuts@febo.com > >> wrote: > > > >> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A > >> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or > that. > >> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or > not > >> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting > >> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/ > journal/v402/n6763/full/ > >> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive > >> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something > >> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping > >> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. > >> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic > >> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I > >> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using > its > >> plenty > >> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the > >> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing > >> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe > that > >> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that > atomic > >> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great > >> interest).Antonio I8IOV > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
As far as atomic clocks are involved, I wish to better point out where I stand, along with some tips and info. - no exotic physics; - gravity is totally extraneous; - time is not involved; - the recorded anomalies are instrumental artifacts. The instruments responded to something however related to the eclipse, but not to nothing. - there are already known effects of solar eclipses on ionosphere, temperature, pressure, winds etc., but my interest doesn't go there; - the effects of solar eclipses on the magnetosphere are much less known, They might be rather local around the eclipse path. Note that the vacuum of solar wind is not coaxial to the optical shadow as solar wind has its own path following the Parker spiral (google it) whose shape is further affected by several variables; - I would recall that sudden geomagnetic variations (such as following a *switched off* solar wind) might induce currents in conductors (even mu- metal); - along with sudden geomagnetic disturbances, also the disturbance of the stream of particles might be involved; - is is mandatory to look at EFC, as the failing component might just be the crystal; Maybe more to come. The above highlights that this not a time-nuts stuff, but time-nuts happen to own an intrument that seems to have responded sometimes in some way to the occurrence of a solar eclipse. I would stress once again that this is a unique opportunity of study. Antonio I8IOV >Messaggio originale >Da: "Magnus Danielson" >Data: 29/05/2017 10.43 >A: >Cc: >Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow > >Hi, > >On 05/29/2017 09:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >> In message >> , Michael Wouters writes: >> >>> The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different >>> kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably >>> will be a null measurement. >> >> It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very >> different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to >> be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy. >> >> So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped >> ion optical clock. >> >> Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel >> Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think >> we can trust them to be on the ball :-) >> > >Somewhat south of NIST Boulder is the USNO backup clock at Shriever >Airforce base, just next to the GPS Master Clock. USNO has rubidium >fountains and hydrogen masers there, and some cesiums. If there would be >any significant effect, I'm sure USNO would also look at it, and also >compare to its Washington DC set of clocks. > >Honestly, I'm sceptical that there is very much going on there. We have >three orbital masses that will almost align, but they almost align on a >regular basis, it's just that the shadow of the moon just don't hit the >earth very often. The graviational pull of moon, sun and earth keeps >adding continuously so we should already be able to measure these >individual effects separately and not only when it happens to occur at >the same time. > >What we can expect is the effect of the shadow, which can potentially >affect the ionspheric TEC delay and for that matter temperature of >troposphere and thus delay there, and that way cause our measurements to >get skewed. This has however nothing to do with the clocks itself. > >Humans is a bit too occupied by alignment in the sky. While a nice show, >I'm not to impressed about its scientific significance in this case. >There is things to learn from most perturbations sure, but as always, >some reasoning to sort out what we could expect is always good. > >Cheers, >Magnus >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase
Hi There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external clock input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10 MHz. Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I would aim at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules out 15 MHz :) Bob > On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day > shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC, > using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred microseconds > of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago. > > Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years > too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio > refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would > let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I > could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric > effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path > from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my > location. > > Tim N3QE > > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts > wrote: > >> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A >> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. >> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not >> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting >> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/ >> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive >> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something >> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping >> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. >> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic >> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I >> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its >> plenty >> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the >> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing >> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that >> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic >> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great >> interest).Antonio I8IOV >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
In message , Tim Shoppa writes: >Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years >too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio >refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would >let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I >could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric >effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path >from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my >location. The Kiwi-SDR is one option. Slightly more hardcore is to attach a 1Ms/s ADC to your antenna and a computer and clock it from your house-standard. See: http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/ Specifically: http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/CW/ -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC, using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred microseconds of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago. Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my location. Tim N3QE On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts wrote: > On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A > lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. > One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not > solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting > reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/ > 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive > results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something > else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping > crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. > Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic > clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I > don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its > plenty > of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the > above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing > yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that > this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic > clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great > interest).Antonio I8IOV > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
To my mind there may be some effect due to small variations in gravity. The Chinese paper is very interesting and does propose classical explanations for the observed gravimeter anomalies. Even so , the variations that were detected by them should be detectable with a sufficiently stable clock. However as the reported anomalies are only 6-7 micro-gal which, using a quick interpolation of the units wikipedia article data, is roughly equivalent to an altitude variation of 2-3cm. That would probably be undetectable with anything less than an ion clock. > Le 29 mai 2017 à 09:49, Michael Wouters a écrit : > > The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different > kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably > will be a null measurement. > > But I see the path of totality passes a bit north of NIST Boulder and I'm > pretty sure they will notice if there is an effect ! ( I'm highly sceptical > there is one. Searches for exotic physics over the last three decades have > consistently turned up nothing. I did it myself at the beginning of my > career with the "fifth force", a composition-dependent, short range > gravity-like force. The positive results all turned out to have very subtle > classical physics explanations) > > Cheers > Michael > > On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 9:35 am, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > >> Personally I go with the Nature article. The other papers look like they >> are anomaly hunting because they have a known event. >> >> Having said that, we have two H masers at our observatory in Hobart and we >> have a system set up to measure their phase difference down to about 0.03 >> ns. I will report back any anomaly. >> >> Did We, of course, are not in the path of the eclipse, however >> gravitationally >> there is still an alignment. Just through the Earth. >> >> >> Jim Palfreyman >> >> >> On 29 May 2017 at 08:17, iovane--- via time-nuts >> wrote: >> >>> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A >>> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. >>> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or >> not >>> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting >>> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/ >>> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ >>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ >>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive >>> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something >>> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping >>> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. >>> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic >>> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I >>> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using >> its >>> plenty >>> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the >>> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing >>> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe >> that >>> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that >> atomic >>> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great >>> interest).Antonio I8IOV >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. » George Bernard Shaw ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
Hi, On 05/29/2017 09:56 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message , Michael Wouters writes: The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably will be a null measurement. It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy. So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped ion optical clock. Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think we can trust them to be on the ball :-) Somewhat south of NIST Boulder is the USNO backup clock at Shriever Airforce base, just next to the GPS Master Clock. USNO has rubidium fountains and hydrogen masers there, and some cesiums. If there would be any significant effect, I'm sure USNO would also look at it, and also compare to its Washington DC set of clocks. Honestly, I'm sceptical that there is very much going on there. We have three orbital masses that will almost align, but they almost align on a regular basis, it's just that the shadow of the moon just don't hit the earth very often. The graviational pull of moon, sun and earth keeps adding continuously so we should already be able to measure these individual effects separately and not only when it happens to occur at the same time. What we can expect is the effect of the shadow, which can potentially affect the ionspheric TEC delay and for that matter temperature of troposphere and thus delay there, and that way cause our measurements to get skewed. This has however nothing to do with the clocks itself. Humans is a bit too occupied by alignment in the sky. While a nice show, I'm not to impressed about its scientific significance in this case. There is things to learn from most perturbations sure, but as always, some reasoning to sort out what we could expect is always good. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
My suspicion is just about the solar wind being switched off, which also has effects on the magnetosphere. Anyway, this very unique opportunity should not be lost. Antonio I8IOV >Messaggio originale >Da: "Neville Michie" >Data: 29/05/2017 10.18 >A: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow > > >Maybe there is an effect when the solar wind is switched off for half an hour. >The ionosphere may shift in that time. This is a great opportunity when an impulse >is applied to the system. The switching off of the solar UV is sure to affect the >ozone layer. You will not have an opportunity to make these observations again for >a long time. A good OCXO will keep time for half an hour, will the apparent GPS time >show a deviation? > >cheers, > >Neville Michie >___ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
Maybe there is an effect when the solar wind is switched off for half an hour. The ionosphere may shift in that time. This is a great opportunity when an impulse is applied to the system. The switching off of the solar UV is sure to affect the ozone layer. You will not have an opportunity to make these observations again for a long time. A good OCXO will keep time for half an hour, will the apparent GPS time show a deviation? cheers, Neville Michie ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
Apologies, I didn't read the paper carefully enough. The original claim does appear to be for a comparison of like clocks eg Cs vs Cs, with a claim of greater effects for a comparison of clocks in and out of the eclipse path. Cheers Michael On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 8:20 am, iovane--- via time-nuts wrote: > On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A > lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. > One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not > solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting > reports: Negative: > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/402749a0.html > Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf > > http://home.t01.itscom.net/allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I > believe that the positive results were due to spurious responses of the > atomic clocks to something else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some > reason (e.g. jumping crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had > been sold to China. Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I > know, no atomic clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but > sincerely I don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts > community, using its plenty > of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the > above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing > yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that > this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic > clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great > interest).Antonio I8IOV > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
In message , Michael Wouters writes: >The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different >kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably >will be a null measurement. It would have to be between clocks where the clock-atoms have very different masses (for instance Cs vs. H) but it would *also* have to be clocks where the clock-photons have very different energy. So the best setup would be H-maser Cs or Rb foundtain and an trapped ion optical clock. Since any physicists at NIST will be keenly aware of the Nobel Prize dangling in front of any competently measured effect, I think we can trust them to be on the ball :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow
The effect you're looking for depends on a comparison of two different kinds of atomic clocks eg Cs vs H-maser so the maser comparison presumably will be a null measurement. But I see the path of totality passes a bit north of NIST Boulder and I'm pretty sure they will notice if there is an effect ! ( I'm highly sceptical there is one. Searches for exotic physics over the last three decades have consistently turned up nothing. I did it myself at the beginning of my career with the "fifth force", a composition-dependent, short range gravity-like force. The positive results all turned out to have very subtle classical physics explanations) Cheers Michael On Mon, 29 May 2017 at 9:35 am, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Personally I go with the Nature article. The other papers look like they > are anomaly hunting because they have a known event. > > Having said that, we have two H masers at our observatory in Hobart and we > have a system set up to measure their phase difference down to about 0.03 > ns. I will report back any anomaly. > > Did We, of course, are not in the path of the eclipse, however > gravitationally > there is still an alignment. Just through the Earth. > > > Jim Palfreyman > > > On 29 May 2017 at 08:17, iovane--- via time-nuts > wrote: > > > On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A > > lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that. > > One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or > not > > solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting > > reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/ > > 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf http://home.t01.itscom.net/ > > allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive > > results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something > > else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping > > crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China. > > Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic > > clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I > > don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using > its > > plenty > > of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the > > above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing > > yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe > that > > this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that > atomic > > clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great > > interest).Antonio I8IOV > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.