Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Jerry Hancock]

Greg, Funny.  Some of the lucent boxes have been in strange places as well.  
Can you please check your PPS to see if you get a signal when in that other 
mode (where it needs at least one sat locked)?

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Gregory Beat  wrote:
> 
> Received a note from John Koster, W9DDD that TAPR had one complete GPS kit 
> left.
> https://www.tapr.org/gps_exp-kit.html
> 
> Received #CAB083 (2.1mm DC Barrel Jack to Bare Wire/"Pigtail") this morning 
> via AirMail.  
> https://www.moddiy.com/products/2.1mm-DC-Barrel-Jack-to-Bare-Wire-%28Open-End%29.html
> Took about 10 minutes to finish building 2 adapter cables for the two kits.
> I will have to post photos.
> 
> I used an old Linksys router power adapter (12VDC, 1A) for power and an old 
> Motorola ANT62301 "HockeyPuck" antenna (Marine screw-base) on the patio (some 
> obstructions).
> http://www.dvq.com/stan/041127/TN-491B-motorola-gps-antenna.pdf
> 
> I could not get TAPR/CNS Systems TAC32 software to work under latest update 
> of Windows 10 (I'll have to ask Rick, W2GPS about that).
> 
> Lady Heather, version 5 came to the rescue (Thank you Mark Sims).
> Lady Heather recognized the Motorola M12 receiver quickly.
> 
> I performed a Hardware Reset and then started the Standard Survey.  
> After about 10 minutes it was tracking, and continuing survey.
> 
> I did read the old coordinates and date from one M12 receiver  
> it last operated in 2014 and its coordinates placed it in middle of Indian 
> River, west of Melbourne, FL (Space Coast).
> Many laughs about why the last report was in river:
> 1.) dropped off a barge or boat
> 2.) partially recovered from a Falcon 9 booster
> 3.) throwing contest from shore
> --
> greg, w9gb
> 
> Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] Exciting news for the western US eloran to be on the air!!

[Ruslan Nabioullin]

Excellent!!  Do you know why the testing periods terminate, and
whether Wildwood will return back on air?

-Ruslan

-- 
Ruslan Nabioullin
Wittgenstein Laboratories
rnabioul...@gmail.com
(508) 523-8535
50 Louise Dr.
Hollis, NH 03049
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Mike Naruta AA8K]

Sure, Jeremy, just got back home.


My information is from Schedules Direct.

Saturday, Jun 03 2:00 PM EDST on C-Span 3

Global Positioning System History

Find Id 736848

Program Id SH02702989

It shows that it runs until 3:39 PM EDST, but other C-Span 
programs I've recorded aired longer than the schedule time, so 
I'm recording until 3:54 EDST



Mike - AA8K


On 06/02/2017 05:22 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

Thank a for the tip!

CSPAN or CSPN2?

What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider 
lists only generic titles for the various programs, makes it 
nearly impossible to find a specific item like your program on GPS.


Jeremy


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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Gregory Beat]

Received a note from John Koster, W9DDD that TAPR had one complete GPS kit left.
https://www.tapr.org/gps_exp-kit.html

Received #CAB083 (2.1mm DC Barrel Jack to Bare Wire/"Pigtail") this morning via 
AirMail.  
https://www.moddiy.com/products/2.1mm-DC-Barrel-Jack-to-Bare-Wire-%28Open-End%29.html
Took about 10 minutes to finish building 2 adapter cables for the two kits.
I will have to post photos.

I used an old Linksys router power adapter (12VDC, 1A) for power and an old 
Motorola ANT62301 "HockeyPuck" antenna (Marine screw-base) on the patio (some 
obstructions).
http://www.dvq.com/stan/041127/TN-491B-motorola-gps-antenna.pdf

I could not get TAPR/CNS Systems TAC32 software to work under latest update of 
Windows 10 (I'll have to ask Rick, W2GPS about that).

Lady Heather, version 5 came to the rescue (Thank you Mark Sims).
Lady Heather recognized the Motorola M12 receiver quickly.

I performed a Hardware Reset and then started the Standard Survey.  
After about 10 minutes it was tracking, and continuing survey.

I did read the old coordinates and date from one M12 receiver  
it last operated in 2014 and its coordinates placed it in middle of Indian 
River, west of Melbourne, FL (Space Coast).
Many laughs about why the last report was in river:
1.) dropped off a barge or boat
2.) partially recovered from a Falcon 9 booster
3.) throwing contest from shore
--
greg, w9gb

Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi




> On Jun 2, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html 
> 

Ok, so yet again a reference to the start of this thread … why?

> 
> Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then so it could not be done.
> Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.

I guess they must have just dreamed up the pelter devices they used. FYI, they 
have
been around since 1834 (no that’s not a typo). 

>  That crystal cut
> has been known since the 1940's at least.

And once you get away from an AT or SC, how much is known about the mode 
spectra of 
the cut ….

>  It has been neglected
> because of limited temperature range. It yields ±1 ppm over a range of
> ±20° C from 25° C.  A slightly different angle of cut can yield ±250
> ppb over that range. (4:1 improvement) Contrast that with a normal AT
> cut which yields ±9 ppm over that range.

Umm …. errr … it’s quite easy to get a +/- 2 ppm 0-50C AT cut *including* the 
tolerance
on the cut angle.

> 
> I built an oven with an Analog Devices temperature sensor 20 years
> ago.  I did not have time to incorporate foam insulation.  The heater
> power was not available to run it at 65° C without insulation.  It had
> to run at 40° C and it would hold about 1 ppb over a few hours.   It
> would hold the crystal within 0.01° or so but it was far away from the
> turnover temperature.   Convection currents cause problems.  It
> convinced me that ovens were headaches.   Thermal coolers remove most
> of these.

I’d suggest you try a few more experiments with real crystals in real 
applications. 

Bob

> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 3:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> Cc: "rwa...@aol.com" , "Donald E. Pauly"
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Have you checked out the papers from the 1950 and `1960’s where they
> actually tried what you
> propose with essentially the same parts you are looking at using?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
>> 
>> # 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
>> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
>> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
>> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
>> neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
>> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
>> C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
>> +105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
>> is y=4x^3.
>> 
>> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
>> 65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
>> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
>> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
>> in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
>> This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
>> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
>> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
>> thermal management.
>> 
>> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
>> WB0KVV
>> 
>> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of 
>>> a crystal cut for turn
>>> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
>>> If you attempt a zero
>>> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate 
>>> for the problem.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html
> 
> Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then so it could not be done.
> Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.  That crystal cut
> has been known since the 1940's at least.  It has been neglected
> because of limited temperature range. It yields ±1 ppm over a range of
> ±20° C from 25° C.  A slightly different angle of cut can yield ±250
> ppb over that range. (4:1 improvement) Contrast that with a normal AT
> cut which yields ±9 ppm over that range.
> 
> I built an oven with an Analog Devices temperature sensor 20 years
> ago.  I did not have time to incorporate foam insulation.  The heater
> power was not available to run it at 65° C without insulation.  It had
> to run at 40° C and it would hold about 1 ppb over a few hours.   It
> would hold the crystal within 0.01° or so but it was far away from the
> turnover temperature.   Convection currents cause problems.  It
> convinced me that ovens were headaches.   Thermal coolers remove most
> of these.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 3:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> Cc: "rwa...@aol.com" , "Donald E. Pauly"
> 
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Have you checked out the papers from the 1950 and `1960’s where they
> actually tried what you
> propose with essentially the same parts you are looking at using?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
>> 
>> # 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
>> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
>> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
>> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
>> neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
>> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
>> C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
>> +105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
>> is y=4x^3.
>> 
>> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
>> 65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
>> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
>> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
>> in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
>> This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
>> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
>> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
>> thermal management.
>> 
>> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
>> WB0KVV
>> 
>> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of 
>>> a crystal cut for turn
>>> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
>>> If you attempt a zero
>>> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate 
>>> for the problem.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bruce Griffiths]

Thermomechanical fatigue can significantly reduce the lifetime of Peltier 
devices if the ripple current flowing in the Peltier device is too high. This 
can become an issue with switchmode drive to a Peltier cooler.

Bruce


> 
> On 03 June 2017 at 11:02 jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 6/2/17 2:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > This is an improvement of 476 to 1. You apparently have not thought
> > thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> > Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> > thermal management.
> > 
> > > 
> without getting into the whole crystal issue, one of the advantages of a
> heater is that it can be VERY simple (and hence reliable, just on a
> parts count basis). With a decent package, once it's hot, the power
> required to keep it hot can be quite low.
> 
> With a heat/cool, you need to be able to have a bipolar supply to the
> peltier device, and they're not particularly efficient (that is, to
> extract 1 Watt of heat, you're putting in significantly more than 1 watt
> of DC, and rejecting 1+X watts to the outside world.
> 
> And then, if you use a linear power supply/amplifier to drive the
> device, that is probably a class A device, and somewhat lossy. A
> switcher would be more efficient, but then you have the problem of
> switching noise, in close proximity to the crystal. You could put a big
> low pass filter in, but now you're adding even more components.
> 
> There are undoubtedly some cases where the thermoelectric scheme would
> work better - for instance, you have a system with a TCXO and it's
> really set up for the TCXO to be at 25C, and you want to regulate that.
> 
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[time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then so it could not be done.
Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.  That crystal cut
has been known since the 1940's at least.  It has been neglected
because of limited temperature range. It yields ±1 ppm over a range of
±20° C from 25° C.  A slightly different angle of cut can yield ±250
ppb over that range. (4:1 improvement) Contrast that with a normal AT
cut which yields ±9 ppm over that range.

I built an oven with an Analog Devices temperature sensor 20 years
ago.  I did not have time to incorporate foam insulation.  The heater
power was not available to run it at 65° C without insulation.  It had
to run at 40° C and it would hold about 1 ppb over a few hours.   It
would hold the crystal within 0.01° or so but it was far away from the
turnover temperature.   Convection currents cause problems.  It
convinced me that ovens were headaches.   Thermal coolers remove most
of these.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Cc: "rwa...@aol.com" , "Donald E. Pauly"



Hi

Have you checked out the papers from the 1950 and `1960’s where they
actually tried what you
propose with essentially the same parts you are looking at using?

Bob


> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
>
> # 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
> neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
> C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
> +105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
> is y=4x^3.
>
> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
> 65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
> in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
> This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> thermal management.
>
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of 
>> a crystal cut for turn
>> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
>> If you attempt a zero
>> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate 
>> for the problem.
>>
>> Bob
>>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bruce Griffiths]

With an AT crystal, manufacturing tolerances will likely ensure that the 
inflection point slope is non zero whereas the same manufacturing tolerances 
will merely change the turnover temperature. Its likely that a more 
manufacturable design will result if one operates at a turnover point (with the 
oven temperature adjusted to the actual turnover) than trying to achieve a 
sufficiently low slope at an inflection point. Even for a one off design one 
the selection process required to achieve a sufficiently low slope at the 
inflection point may prove expensive. 

Bruce

> 
> On 03 June 2017 at 09:51 "Donald E. Pauly"  wrote:
> 
> # 2 is not true. A cut has either two turning points or zero. Where
> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero. Cut 0 on figure 6 at
> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point. It is
> neither fish nor fowl. Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C. All curves normally intersect at 25°
> C rather than the 27° C shown. 25° C is half way between -55° C thru
> +105° C. Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
> is y=4x^3.
> 
> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
> 65° C. The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens. A
> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9. For cut 0, that same ±1° error
> in room temperature results in a frequency error of ±31.25·10^-12.
> This is an improvement of 476 to 1. You apparently have not thought
> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> thermal management.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: "Donald E. Pauly" 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Which statement is not true:
> 
> 1) That there is a tolerance on the cut angle of a crystal?
> 
> 2) That true zero temperature coefficient only happens at the turn?
> 
> 3) That heater based controllers are impossible to build?
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Donald E. Pauly  
> wrote:
> 
> That is not true. I say that thermal coolers have made ovens
> obsolete. A zero temperature coefficient at room temperature is
> easier to hit than a zero temperature at the upper turnover point when
> such a thing exists. See
> curve 0 in Figure 6 at https://coloradocrystal.com/applications/ .
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> 
> > > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the 
> > case of a crystal cut for turn
> > the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your 
> > oven to it. If you attempt a zero
> > angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to 
> > compensate for the problem.
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Tom Van Baak]

> A guy by the name of David W. Allan used direct multiplication to
> build NBS-4 and NBS-5, see http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/65.pdf .  He
> didn't see anything wrong with it.  He used a commercial frequency
> standard modified from 5 mc to 5.006880 mc.

That kind of LO is ok for a research clock. But maybe not so good for a working 
institutional or house standard where people expect frequency distribution in 
nice round numbers like 5 or 10 or 100 MHz.

The good news is that you can get a perfect 1PPS out of it: divide by 5006880 = 
2^5 * 3^3 * 5 * 19 * 61. I've heard JohnA has one of these vintage 5.006880 mc 
oscillators so I did a PIC divider for him. See pd21 under 
www.leapsecond.com/pic/src/

/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Jeremy Nichols]

Alas, I don't get CSPAN-3. Maybe someone will put it on YouTube.

J.


On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:11 PM Craig Kirkpatrick 
wrote:

> https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history <
> https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history>
>
>
> > On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> >
> > Thank a for the tip!
> >
> > CSPAN or CSPN2?
> >
> > What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider lists
> only
> > generic titles for the various programs, makes it nearly impossible to
> find
> > a specific item like your program on GPS.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 1:21 PM Mike Naruta AA8K 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric
> >> Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global
> >> positioning system.
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> > --
> > Sent from Gmail Mobile
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[time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

Tell us more about the RF leakage problems in the 5061.  I thought
that the 5071 used the same beam tube.  How does the electricity leak
out and at what frequencies?My method costs a tenth as much and
has higher spectral purity performance to the beam tube.  I admit that
I hadn't thought about the electricity leaking out. Can the leak be
plugged?

BTW these are not strictly Diophantine equations.  No exact solution
is possible if C field is to be used.  Can you tell us the magic
numbers?

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KV


-- Forwarded message --
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
, "Donald E. Pauly" ,
"rwa...@aol.com" 


I said no *manufacturer* does it this way.  NBS is not
a manufacturer.  In a one-off money-is-no-object non-portable
standard, you can make direct multiplication work.  It
will not work well in a 5061, because of RF leakage
issues specific to the 5061 that are well documented.
Bolting on a different synthesizer does nothing to change that.

The decision not to use direct multiplication has nothing to
do with not being able to figure out how to synthesize the
correct frequency.  Certainly by the time we did the 5071A,
we were already using DDS, and it wouldn't have been any
problem to synthesize for direct multiplication if we had
wanted to do that.  You seem to be doing it the hard way
(pre DDS) involving Diophantine equations.  So it's easier
to do direct multiply than it used to be, but that doesn't
necessarily mean you should do it that way.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Craig Kirkpatrick]

https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history 



> On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Nichols  wrote:
> 
> Thank a for the tip!
> 
> CSPAN or CSPN2?
> 
> What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider lists only
> generic titles for the various programs, makes it nearly impossible to find
> a specific item like your program on GPS.
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 1:21 PM Mike Naruta AA8K  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric
>> Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global
>> positioning system.
>> 
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[jimlux]

On 6/2/17 2:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:



This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
thermal management.


without getting into the whole crystal issue, one of the advantages of a 
heater is that it can be VERY simple (and hence reliable, just on a 
parts count basis). With a decent package, once it's hot, the power 
required to keep it hot can be quite low.


With a heat/cool, you need to be able to have a bipolar supply to the 
peltier device, and they're not particularly efficient (that is, to 
extract 1 Watt of heat, you're putting in significantly more than 1 watt 
of DC, and rejecting 1+X watts to the outside world.


And then, if you use a linear power supply/amplifier to drive the 
device, that is probably a class A device, and somewhat lossy.  A 
switcher would be more efficient, but then you have the problem of 
switching noise, in close proximity to the crystal. You could put a big 
low pass filter in, but now you're adding even more components.


There are undoubtedly some cases where the thermoelectric scheme would 
work better - for instance, you have a system with a TCXO and it's 
really set up for the TCXO to be at 25C, and you want to regulate that.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Have you checked out the papers from the 1950 and `1960’s where they actually 
tried what you 
propose with essentially the same parts you are looking at using?

Bob


> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> # 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
> neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
> C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
> +105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
> is y=4x^3.
> 
> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
> 65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
> in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
> This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> thermal management.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: "Donald E. Pauly" 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Which statement is not true:
> 
> 1) That there is a tolerance on the cut angle of a crystal?
> 
> 2) That true zero temperature coefficient only happens at the turn?
> 
> 3) That heater based controllers are impossible to build?
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> That is not true.  I say that thermal coolers have made ovens
> obsolete.  A zero temperature coefficient at room temperature is
> easier to hit than a zero temperature at the upper turnover point when
> such a thing exists.  See
> curve 0 in Figure 6 at https://coloradocrystal.com/applications/ .
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> 
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of 
>> a crystal cut for turn
>> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
>> If you attempt a zero
>> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate 
>> for the problem.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

How many OCXO’s have you actually built?

Bob

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> # 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
> both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
> temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
> https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
> neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
> ±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
> C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
> +105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
> is y=4x^3.
> 
> Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
> 65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
> set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
> in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
> in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
> This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
> thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> thermal management.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:43 PM
> Subject: Re: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: "Donald E. Pauly" 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Which statement is not true:
> 
> 1) That there is a tolerance on the cut angle of a crystal?
> 
> 2) That true zero temperature coefficient only happens at the turn?
> 
> 3) That heater based controllers are impossible to build?
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> That is not true.  I say that thermal coolers have made ovens
> obsolete.  A zero temperature coefficient at room temperature is
> easier to hit than a zero temperature at the upper turnover point when
> such a thing exists.  See
> curve 0 in Figure 6 at https://coloradocrystal.com/applications/ .
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
> WB0KVV
> 
> 
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of 
>> a crystal cut for turn
>> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
>> If you attempt a zero
>> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate 
>> for the problem.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
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[time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

# 2 is not true.  A cut has either two turning points or zero.  Where
both turning points exist there are two temperatures at which the
temperature coefficient of frequency is zero.  Cut 0 on figure 6 at
https://coloradocrystal.com/applications has no turnover point.  It is
neither fish nor fowl.  Cut 6 is the normal AT curve with extremes of
±16 ppm for -55° C thru +105° C.  All curves normally intersect at 25°
C rather than the 27° C shown.  25° C is half way between -55° C thru
+105° C.  Curve 6 is the Tchebychev polynomial y=4x^3-3x and curve 0
is y=4x^3.

Consider the standard AT cut which has turnover points at -15° C and
65° C.  The lower turnover would ordinarily not be used in ovens.  A
set point error of ±1° C in the upper turnover point at 65° C results
in a frequency error of +14.875·10^-9.  For cut 0, that same ±1° error
in room temperature results in a frequency error of  ±31.25·10^-12.
This is an improvement of 476 to 1.  You apparently have not thought
thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
thermal management.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: "Donald E. Pauly" 

Hi

Which statement is not true:

1) That there is a tolerance on the cut angle of a crystal?

2) That true zero temperature coefficient only happens at the turn?

3) That heater based controllers are impossible to build?

Bob

On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:

That is not true.  I say that thermal coolers have made ovens
obsolete.  A zero temperature coefficient at room temperature is
easier to hit than a zero temperature at the upper turnover point when
such a thing exists.  See
curve 0 in Figure 6 at https://coloradocrystal.com/applications/ .

πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
WB0KVV


On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of a 
> crystal cut for turn
> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. 
> If you attempt a zero
> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate for 
> the problem.
>
> Bob
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank a for the tip!

CSPAN or CSPN2?

What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider lists only
generic titles for the various programs, makes it nearly impossible to find
a specific item like your program on GPS.

Jeremy


On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 1:21 PM Mike Naruta AA8K  wrote:

>
> I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric
> Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global
> positioning system.
>
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[time-nuts] Exciting news for the western US eloran to be on the air!!

[paul swed]

Quite the opportunity. 3 sites on the air and synchronized so you could
actually do real location tracking. What is amazing is the sites have to
some level been restored to operation. I have heard as an example Dana
Indiana was gutted.
Have fun and enjoy and I will be listening from the East coast.

The Loran sites at Havre, MT; George, WA, and Fallon, NV will be
continuously broadcasting from 0900 (MST) 20 June 2017 through 1200 (MST)
on 30 June 2017. The sites will be operating on the 5990 rate but
occasionally may operate at other rates. Only the site at Fallon will be
operating as an eLoran site. The sites at Havre and George will be
operating as Loran-C sites synchronized to UTC.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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[time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

That is not true.  I say that thermal coolers have made ovens obsolete.  A
zero temperature coefficient at room temperature is easier to hit than a
zero temperature at the upper turnover point when such a thing exists.  See
curve 0 in Figure 6 at https://coloradocrystal.com/applications/ .

πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
WB0KVV


On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq > wrote:

> Hi
>
> Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case
> of a crystal cut for turn
> the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to
> it. If you attempt a zero
> angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate
> for the problem.
>
> Bob
>
> On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:19 PM, Donald E. Pauly 
> wrote:
>
> A cut at that angle has no turn over temperature. The zero temperature
> coefficient point is 25°.  Its temperature coefficient everywhere else is
> positive.
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> If you are going to use an oven, it’s better to run it at the turn
>> temperature of
>> the crystal. That would put you above 50C for an AT and a bit higher
>> still for an SC.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>
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[time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

A cut at that angle has no turn over temperature. The zero temperature
coefficient point is 25°.  Its temperature coefficient everywhere else is
positive.

On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> If you are going to use an oven, it’s better to run it at the turn
> temperature of
> the crystal. That would put you above 50C for an AT and a bit higher still
> for an SC.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly  > wrote:
> >
> > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html
> >
> > If we build this circuit it would be a bench model not designed to be
> > inside a hot chassis.  It would be able to lock ± 5° C of 25° C.  My
> > idea of an oven is to keep the crystal and oscillator at 25° C ±0.001
> > °C with 60 second warm up/cool down time.
> >
> > πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> > WB0KVV
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: Bob kb8tq >
> > Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 5:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I would suggest you check a few real crystals over the 20 to 40C range ….
> > With all the “stuff” in a 5061, it will change (rise) at least 10C
> > after turn on.
> >
> > Bob
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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[time-nuts] GPS history

[Mike Naruta AA8K]

I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric 
Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global 
positioning system.


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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Any real crystal you buy will have a tolerance on the angle. In the case of a 
crystal cut for turn
the temperature will be a bit different and you will match your oven to it. If 
you attempt a zero 
angle cut, you will never really hit it and there is no way to compensate for 
the problem. 

Bob

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 3:19 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> A cut at that angle has no turn over temperature. The zero temperature 
> coefficient point is 25°.  Its temperature coefficient everywhere else is 
> positive.
> 
> On Friday, June 2, 2017, Bob kb8tq > 
> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> If you are going to use an oven, it’s better to run it at the turn 
> temperature of
> the crystal. That would put you above 50C for an AT and a bit higher still 
> for an SC.
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly  > > wrote:
> >
> > https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html 
> > 
> >
> > If we build this circuit it would be a bench model not designed to be
> > inside a hot chassis.  It would be able to lock ± 5° C of 25° C.  My
> > idea of an oven is to keep the crystal and oscillator at 25° C ±0.001
> > °C with 60 second warm up/cool down time.
> >
> > πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> > WB0KVV
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: Bob kb8tq >
> > Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 5:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> > >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I would suggest you check a few real crystals over the 20 to 40C range ….
> > With all the “stuff” in a 5061, it will change (rise) at least 10C
> > after turn on.
> >
> > Bob
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 
> > 
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I said no *manufacturer* does it this way.  NBS is not
a manufacturer.  In a one-off money-is-no-object non-portable
standard, you can make direct multiplication work.  It
will not work well in a 5061, because of RF leakage
issues specific to the 5061 that are well documented.
Bolting on a different synthesizer does nothing to change that.

The decision not to use direct multiplication has nothing to
do with not being able to figure out how to synthesize the
correct frequency.  Certainly by the time we did the 5071A,
we were already using DDS, and it wouldn't have been any
problem to synthesize for direct multiplication if we had
wanted to do that.  You seem to be doing it the hard way
(pre DDS) involving Diophantine equations.  So it's easier
to do direct multiply than it used to be, but that doesn't
necessarily mean you should do it that way.

Rick

On 6/2/2017 10:59 AM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

A guy by the name of David W. Allan used direct multiplication to
build NBS-4 and NBS-5, see http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/65.pdf .  He
didn't see anything wrong with it.  He used a commercial frequency
standard modified from 5 mc to 5.006880 mc.  That in turn was
multiplied by 1836.  This was a multiplier chain of 2·2·3·3·3·17.
When multiplied to 9192 mc, this is 90 cycles low so the standard
would be forced high by 0.05 cps..  They measured the locked frequency
standard to determine the actual frequency of the cesium line.  I
propose NO multiplier chain.

What are the supposed problems in using a direct submultiple of the
cesium resonance?  It seems to me that all other techniques result in
more phase noise there.  I found the relationship 91.92631770
mc·(137,075/126,008)=99,999,999.98992 cps=100,000.000--0.01008 cps.
It is low by 0.1 ppb and therefore cannot be adjusted by C field
current.  The C field can only lower the frequency.  There is another
relationship that gives a higher frequency of a fraction of a part per
billion which is easily adjustable.  Perhaps HP was unaware that such
a frequency exists.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KV


-- Forwarded message --
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
Date: Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
, "Donald E. Pauly" ,
"rwa...@aol.com" 


Direct multiplication to 9192 MHz isn't used
by any manufacturer of any atomic clock that I
know of, due to its well known disadvantages.
I can state for a fact that it was summarily
rejected by the designers of the 5060/5061
(Cutler, et al).  In the 5071, I (being the
RF designer) also summarily rejected it.
The architecture that is instead used is indeed
complex and expensive as you say.  It is
also ACCURATE.

Rick


On 6/1/2017 7:04 PM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:


https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

The lock system on the HP5071 is complex and expensive.  My plan to
improve the HP5061B is to to use a pair of third overtone crystals
running at 91.9 mc and 100 mc.  I have come up with the magic numbers
to lock them together.  This eliminates all multipliers with the
exception of the A4 board. The 12.61 mc synthesizer input presently
wastes half the microwave power produced by the 90 mc input in the
unused lower sideband. Therefore only half the 91.9 mc drive is
required.

Eight bit ECL dividers in one package are available to perform the
necessary lock.  When multiplied by 100 to the cesium resonance line,
the 91.9 mc frequency is a few cycles high so that C field currents
are reasonable. With crystal cuts for zero temperature coefficient at
25°C, it is possible to get along without an oven.  Room temperature
performance at 25°C±5°C is ±15·10^-9.  Oscillator warm up time would
be measured in seconds.

Square wave modulation of variable frequency and amplitude shows
promise for reducing the noise effects of the beam tube.  You can
smoothly change the lock time constant, deviation and frequency.  This
would avoid the big disturbance of the HP5061B when you switch from
OPR to LTC. (OPR=operate with 1 second time constant, LTC=operate with
100 second time constant)

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KV
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you are going to use an oven, it’s better to run it at the turn temperature 
of 
the crystal. That would put you above 50C for an AT and a bit higher still for 
an SC.

Bob

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html
> 
> If we build this circuit it would be a bench model not designed to be
> inside a hot chassis.  It would be able to lock ± 5° C of 25° C.  My
> idea of an oven is to keep the crystal and oscillator at 25° C ±0.001
> °C with 60 second warm up/cool down time.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 5:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I would suggest you check a few real crystals over the 20 to 40C range ….
> With all the “stuff” in a 5061, it will change (rise) at least 10C
> after turn on.
> 
> Bob
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[time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

If we build this circuit it would be a bench model not designed to be
inside a hot chassis.  It would be able to lock ± 5° C of 25° C.  My
idea of an oven is to keep the crystal and oscillator at 25° C ±0.001
°C with 60 second warm up/cool down time.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Hi

I would suggest you check a few real crystals over the 20 to 40C range ….
With all the “stuff” in a 5061, it will change (rise) at least 10C
after turn on.

Bob
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[time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html

A guy by the name of David W. Allan used direct multiplication to
build NBS-4 and NBS-5, see http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/65.pdf .  He
didn't see anything wrong with it.  He used a commercial frequency
standard modified from 5 mc to 5.006880 mc.  That in turn was
multiplied by 1836.  This was a multiplier chain of 2·2·3·3·3·17.
When multiplied to 9192 mc, this is 90 cycles low so the standard
would be forced high by 0.05 cps..  They measured the locked frequency
standard to determine the actual frequency of the cesium line.  I
propose NO multiplier chain.

What are the supposed problems in using a direct submultiple of the
cesium resonance?  It seems to me that all other techniques result in
more phase noise there.  I found the relationship 91.92631770
mc·(137,075/126,008)=99,999,999.98992 cps=100,000.000--0.01008 cps.
It is low by 0.1 ppb and therefore cannot be adjusted by C field
current.  The C field can only lower the frequency.  There is another
relationship that gives a higher frequency of a fraction of a part per
billion which is easily adjustable.  Perhaps HP was unaware that such
a frequency exists.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KV


-- Forwarded message --
From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
Date: Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
, "Donald E. Pauly" ,
"rwa...@aol.com" 


Direct multiplication to 9192 MHz isn't used
by any manufacturer of any atomic clock that I
know of, due to its well known disadvantages.
I can state for a fact that it was summarily
rejected by the designers of the 5060/5061
(Cutler, et al).  In the 5071, I (being the
RF designer) also summarily rejected it.
The architecture that is instead used is indeed
complex and expensive as you say.  It is
also ACCURATE.

Rick


On 6/1/2017 7:04 PM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:
>
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html
>
> The lock system on the HP5071 is complex and expensive.  My plan to
> improve the HP5061B is to to use a pair of third overtone crystals
> running at 91.9 mc and 100 mc.  I have come up with the magic numbers
> to lock them together.  This eliminates all multipliers with the
> exception of the A4 board. The 12.61 mc synthesizer input presently
> wastes half the microwave power produced by the 90 mc input in the
> unused lower sideband. Therefore only half the 91.9 mc drive is
> required.
>
> Eight bit ECL dividers in one package are available to perform the
> necessary lock.  When multiplied by 100 to the cesium resonance line,
> the 91.9 mc frequency is a few cycles high so that C field currents
> are reasonable. With crystal cuts for zero temperature coefficient at
> 25°C, it is possible to get along without an oven.  Room temperature
> performance at 25°C±5°C is ±15·10^-9.  Oscillator warm up time would
> be measured in seconds.
>
> Square wave modulation of variable frequency and amplitude shows
> promise for reducing the noise effects of the beam tube.  You can
> smoothly change the lock time constant, deviation and frequency.  This
> would avoid the big disturbance of the HP5061B when you switch from
> OPR to LTC. (OPR=operate with 1 second time constant, LTC=operate with
> 100 second time constant)
>
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KV
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi


> On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:04 PM, Donald E. Pauly  wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/105566.html
> 
> The lock system on the HP5071 is complex and expensive.  My plan to
> improve the HP5061B is to to use a pair of third overtone crystals
> running at 91.9 mc and 100 mc.  I have come up with the magic numbers
> to lock them together.  This eliminates all multipliers with the
> exception of the A4 board. The 12.61 mc synthesizer input presently
> wastes half the microwave power produced by the 90 mc input in the
> unused lower sideband. Therefore only half the 91.9 mc drive is
> required.
> 
> Eight bit ECL dividers in one package are available to perform the
> necessary lock.  When multiplied by 100 to the cesium resonance line,
> the 91.9 mc frequency is a few cycles high so that C field currents
> are reasonable. With crystal cuts for zero temperature coefficient at
> 25°C, it is possible to get along without an oven.  Room temperature
> performance at 25°C±5°C is ±15·10^-9.  

I would suggest you check a few real crystals over the 20 to 40C range ….
With all the “stuff” in a 5061, it will change (rise) at least 10C after turn 
on. 

Bob


> Oscillator warm up time would
> be measured in seconds.
> 
> Square wave modulation of variable frequency and amplitude shows
> promise for reducing the noise effects of the beam tube.  You can
> smoothly change the lock time constant, deviation and frequency.  This
> would avoid the big disturbance of the HP5061B when you switch from
> OPR to LTC. (OPR=operate with 1 second time constant, LTC=operate with
> 100 second time constant)
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KV
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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[time-nuts] The future of Telecom Frequency Standard surplus

[Mark Sims]

I was once tasked with building some building sway monitoring systems.  The 
People With the Bucks were rather tight lipped about why they wanted to monitor 
building sway,  but I think this was closely related to the reason... and yes, 
tall buildings wobble like a weeble (but don't fall down)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFzhjnjXc2o

---

> Higher carrier frequencies make things like Doppler more important - 
some of the high rate point to point links actually have problems with 
tall buildings moving in the wind
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