Re: [time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jerry Hancock]

Thanks, just what I need and the right price range.

> On Jun 3, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Lincoln  wrote:
> 
> There is also Halted off of central expressway
> 
> 
>> On Jun 3, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Jerry Hancock  wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?  
>> 
>> Please reply to cl...@hanler.com
>> 
>> thanks 
>> 
>> Jerry
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[time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Mark Sims]

So does Lady Heather... the "S" menu control things like self-surveys, entering 
fixed position coordinates,  and the receiver operating mode.  SN will put it 
in Navigation (3D) mode.  SH will put it in position Hold mode (timing mode).  

---

> TAC32 program has a quick setting for config. receiver as Timing or 
> Navigation.
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[jimlux]

On 6/3/17 8:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote:


jim...@earthlink.net said:

I guess the regen receiver must have had some gain at 1 MHz. I found an  old
GE datasheet that gives the ft of 0.6 MHz. (and the hfe wasn't bad,  20, at
DC, probably)



But you sure weren't building a 5MHz or 10 MHz oscillator with a 2N107  or a
CK722.  Or the 2N170 NPN, which I am surprised to find you can  still buy
(and cheaper, in constant dollars, than originally).


Free to good home:

RCA Transistor Manual, SC-10, 1962, $1.50, 300 pages
3/4 of it is Technical Data.  Many 1/2 page.  Some more than a page.
Lots of germanium.  Nothing on the 2N170 or CK722.

GE Transistor Manual, 6th ed, 1962, $2, 440 pages
Nothing resembling a data sheet.  There are several tables with parameters.
The Use column for the 2N170 says IF => Intermediate Frequency Amplifier.




the CK722 was a Raytheon part, I believe.

The 2N170 was apparently hot stuff.  Slightly before my time (2N404 and 
2N1613 were my childhood devices, and amazingly, they're still being 
made, although I suspect not on the same fab lines)


Yep, IF, as in 455 kHz (or back then, 455 kc).  No FM strip at 10.7 MHz 
or TV at 4.5 MHz in 1962.


http://n4trb.com/AmateurRadio/SemiconductorHistory/GE_2N170_NPN_Junction_Transistor.pdf

gives performance *at 455 kHz*.. 24dB gain.  People probably thought 
they had died and gone to heaven.




There is a chapter on Radio Receiver and Tuner Circuits and another on Basic
Computer Circuits.




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Re: [time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Lincoln]

There is also Halted off of central expressway


> On Jun 3, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Jerry Hancock  wrote:
> 
> Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?  
> 
> Please reply to cl...@hanler.com
> 
> thanks 
> 
> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jeremy Nichols]

If you can't find anything fitting your requirements, check Weirdstuff
Warehouse, 384 W. Caribbean Dr., Sunnyvale, 408-743-5650, 9:30am-6:00pm. In
2015 they had nice aluminum racks for $50 by Chatsworth Products ~7 feet
high and rack shelves $15

Jeremy

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Jerry Hancock  wrote:

> Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?
>
> Please reply to cl...@hanler.com
>
> thanks
>
> Jerry
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Hal Murray]

jim...@earthlink.net said:
> I guess the regen receiver must have had some gain at 1 MHz. I found an  old
> GE datasheet that gives the ft of 0.6 MHz. (and the hfe wasn't bad,  20, at
> DC, probably)

> But you sure weren't building a 5MHz or 10 MHz oscillator with a 2N107  or a
> CK722.  Or the 2N170 NPN, which I am surprised to find you can  still buy
> (and cheaper, in constant dollars, than originally). 

Free to good home:

RCA Transistor Manual, SC-10, 1962, $1.50, 300 pages
3/4 of it is Technical Data.  Many 1/2 page.  Some more than a page.
Lots of germanium.  Nothing on the 2N170 or CK722.

GE Transistor Manual, 6th ed, 1962, $2, 440 pages
Nothing resembling a data sheet.  There are several tables with parameters.
The Use column for the 2N170 says IF => Intermediate Frequency Amplifier.

There is a chapter on Radio Receiver and Tuner Circuits and another on Basic 
Computer Circuits.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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[time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jerry Hancock]

Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?  

Please reply to cl...@hanler.com

thanks 

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[jimlux]

On 6/3/17 5:54 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

The objective of the early work with coolers and OCXO’s was DOD sponsored. Low 
cost was
not the goal :) The idea was that aging might be much better at the lower turn 
than at the upper turn. Once they
played around a bit they found that activation energy was a real thing in this 
case. The improvement in aging
did not justify the significant increase in complexity of the design. The idea 
has popped up about every ten
years. Each time the conclusion after building a trial unit is pretty much the 
same.




I'm just picturing in my mind a 14 inch high rack mount unit with 
several hundred watts in heater power for the vacuum tube amplifiers, 
etc. needed to implement this kind of thing in the early 50s.


I'll bet someone also built one with mechanical refrigeration, a liquid 
cooling loop, and an electronic heater.  That one was a full rack 
cabinet


The "idea popping up every 10 years" is not restricted to crystal 
oscillators.  Anything where there's a "the technology doesn't support 
it" is the barrier. A couple generations and all of a sudden you can do 
it.  And sometimes it works - DDS and PN codes are examples of things 
which were barely feasible some decades ago, so people went through all 
sorts of gyrations to achieve goals with out it, but now, it's "oh yeah, 
sure, a parallel correlator to acquire and track 32 simultaneous GPS 
signals, isn't there an Arduino Sketch for that?"



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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The objective of the early work with coolers and OCXO’s was DOD sponsored. Low 
cost was
not the goal :) The idea was that aging might be much better at the lower turn 
than at the upper turn. Once they
played around a bit they found that activation energy was a real thing in this 
case. The improvement in aging
did not justify the significant increase in complexity of the design. The idea 
has popped up about every ten 
years. Each time the conclusion after building a trial unit is pretty much the 
same. 

Bob

> On Jun 3, 2017, at 8:18 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 6/3/17 2:38 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> 
>> In message 
>> 
>> , "Donald E. Pauly" writes:
>> 
>>> Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then
>> 
>> http://www.thermoelectrics.caltech.edu/thermoelectrics/history.html
> 
> I'm not sure about fancy coolers.. Yeah, people showed that the effect 
> worked, but I think they really didn't come into their own until the modern 
> ones that are omnipresent in 12V powered beer coolers and the like were 
> developed.  That was 70s according to the article.
> Borg Warner (of clutch, brake, and gearbox fame) apparently had one in 1960.
> http://www.thermoelectric.com/2010/archives/library/Ads%20in%20the%2060's.PDF
> 
> So they existed, but were pretty exotic. would a crystal oscillator builder 
> have wanted to fool with one?  Hey, there have been people tinkering with 
> almost everything forever.
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer#History
>> 
> 
> Yep... and thermocouples have been used for thermometry for a long time too. 
> Thermistors, for that matter, nonlinear as all get-out, but readily available.
> 
> In the 50s, a *transistor* oscillator would have been pretty unusual. I'm not 
> sure they could work at a high enough frequency.  You'll note that the early 
> "transistor radios" were basically TRF designs for the AM band, and the 
> transistor basically provided audio gain, not RF gain.
> 
> http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/sheets/GE_2N107_Datasheet.jpg
> 
> I guess the regen receiver must have had some gain at 1 MHz. I found an old 
> GE datasheet that gives the ft of 0.6 MHz. (and the hfe wasn't bad, 20, at 
> DC, probably)
> 
> But you sure weren't building a 5MHz or 10 MHz oscillator with a 2N107 or a 
> CK722.  Or the 2N170 NPN, which I am surprised to find you can still buy (and 
> cheaper, in constant dollars, than originally).
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[jimlux]

On 6/3/17 2:38 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 
, "Donald E. Pauly" writes:


Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then


http://www.thermoelectrics.caltech.edu/thermoelectrics/history.html


I'm not sure about fancy coolers.. Yeah, people showed that the effect 
worked, but I think they really didn't come into their own until the 
modern ones that are omnipresent in 12V powered beer coolers and the 
like were developed.  That was 70s according to the article.
Borg Warner (of clutch, brake, and gearbox fame) apparently had one in 
1960.

http://www.thermoelectric.com/2010/archives/library/Ads%20in%20the%2060's.PDF

So they existed, but were pretty exotic. would a crystal oscillator 
builder have wanted to fool with one?  Hey, there have been people 
tinkering with almost everything forever.






Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer#History



Yep... and thermocouples have been used for thermometry for a long time 
too. Thermistors, for that matter, nonlinear as all get-out, but readily 
available.


In the 50s, a *transistor* oscillator would have been pretty unusual. 
I'm not sure they could work at a high enough frequency.  You'll note 
that the early "transistor radios" were basically TRF designs for the AM 
band, and the transistor basically provided audio gain, not RF gain.


http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/sheets/GE_2N107_Datasheet.jpg

I guess the regen receiver must have had some gain at 1 MHz. I found an 
old GE datasheet that gives the ft of 0.6 MHz. (and the hfe wasn't bad, 
20, at DC, probably)


But you sure weren't building a 5MHz or 10 MHz oscillator with a 2N107 
or a CK722.  Or the 2N170 NPN, which I am surprised to find you can 
still buy (and cheaper, in constant dollars, than originally).




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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A bit of “who knew what when” as far as crystal cuts:

1931:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/quartz-resonators-and-oscillators/oclc/11299952 


1946:

https://www.amazon.com/Piezoelectricity-Introduction-Applications-Electromechanical-Phenomena/dp/B000OJWIJS/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1496534218&sr=1-1&keywords=Piezoelectricity

1956:

http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/hpc.pdf 

The only one I could find online is the last one, sorry about that !! It’s also 
a fun read if you happen to be into 1950’s radio technology. 

Bob


> On Jun 3, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message 
> 
> , "Donald E. Pauly" writes:
> 
>> Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then 
> 
> http://www.thermoelectrics.caltech.edu/thermoelectrics/history.html
> 
>> Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer#History
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, "Donald E. Pauly" writes:

>Electronic thermal coolers did not exist then 

http://www.thermoelectrics.caltech.edu/thermoelectrics/history.html

>Electronic temperature sensors did not exist either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer#History

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , jimlux writes:


One final detail about TEC's which people usually don't have to
worry about, is that they're not happy about switching directions.

You generally end up with them mechanically tearing themselves apart
if you use them for mixed cooling/heating.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
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[time-nuts] CRS-11: NICER to ISS (SEXTANT demo)

[Gregory Beat]

Celestial Navigation for Deep Space (and Timing) ... 
interesting data measurements, experimentation and demonstration.
SpaceX has the NICER experiment in its "trunk" unpressurized cargo area.
--
NICER : Neutron star Interior Composition ExploreR
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1966.html
Neutron stars, the glowing cinders left behind when massive stars explode as 
supernovas, are the densest objects in the universe and contain exotic states 
of matter that are impossible to replicate in any lab. They shine most brightly 
in narrow beams that sweep the sky as the stars spin; from a great distance, 
they appear to pulse like lighthouse beacons (hence the name “pulsars”). From 
its perch aboard the International Space Station (ISS), the Neutron star 
Interior Composition Explorer (NICER) payload studies the extraordinary physics 
of these stars, providing new insights into their nature and behavior. 
Through the embedded Station Explorer for X-ray Timing And Navigation 
Technology (SEXTANT) demonstration, it may pave the way for a future GPS-like 
system for spacecraft navigation anywhere in the Solar System using pulsars 
(known timing sequence) as natural beacons.

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[time-nuts] C-SPAN broadcast GPS History, via Internet

[Gregory Beat]

Global Positioning History
https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history
Global Positioning System History Richard Easton and Eric Frazier talked about 
the history and evolution of the global positioning system, or GPS. They spoke 
about its early days as an American spy tool during the Cold War and tracked 
how its usage changed over time. They also explored America’s military, 
commercial, and personal dependence on the device. 
---
C-SPAN sent me alert about availability of this May 5th recorded session.

greg
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Gregory Beat]

Jerry -

I rarely use "raw" Oncore M12 commands these days, using one of the 3 common PC 
programs: Lady Heather, TAC32/SynTAC, M12Oncore(old Moto pgm).

How are you routing that 1 PPS signal?  Does your front LED pulse?
I wire 1 PPS to the DCD pin (DE-9M, standard RS-232), TAC32 can be configured 
for "which pin" (DE-9M) to sense that PPS signal.  
This is why I prefer to use Mark Sims' Lady Heather or Rick Hambly's TAC32.  
TAC32 program has a quick setting for config. receiver as Timing or Navigation.

IF you continue to have issues, perform the Hardware Reset (Lady Heather).
That will return your receiver to default factory with cleared settings.

greg
---
Greg, Funny.  
Some of the Lucent boxes have been in strange places as well.  
Can you please check your PPS to see if you get a signal when in that other 
mode (where it needs at least one sat locked)?

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Re: [time-nuts] Exciting news for the western US eloran to be on the air!!

[paul swed]

Ruslan I do not know though they are testing periods so I expect them to
end.
In general these are for various propagation and characterization studies
using new eloran receivers by UrsaNav. As an example. How well the signals
received in a modern building. Stuff like that.
The fact that they actually have 3 stations up and synchronized is quite
amazing given transmitters and control chains were trashed in most stations.
Regards
Paul.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Ruslan Nabioullin 
wrote:

> Excellent!!  Do you know why the testing periods terminate, and
> whether Wildwood will return back on air?
>
> -Ruslan
>
> --
> Ruslan Nabioullin
> Wittgenstein Laboratories
> rnabioul...@gmail.com
> (508) 523-8535
> 50 Louise Dr.
> Hollis, NH 03049
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[time-nuts] Carmel Instruments

[Shalom Kattan]

Hi,

My name is Shalom Kattan.  I just joined Time-Nuts.  I have been in the
time and frequency industry for over 30 years.

I started my career at HP in the frequency counters division in 1981
(worked on the HP5334A Counter and the HP5371A TIA).  I am the founder of
Carmel Instruments which makes counters and clock sources. See
www.carmelinst.com

We just announced the NK732 Counter which makes 20 million measurements per
second, each with 2 ps resolution (single-shot)

I will be happy to answer general questions about measurement methods.

Regards,
Shalom Kattan
Carmel Instruments
408-866-0426 x112
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[time-nuts] Fwd: Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-June/date.html

I am familiar with this effect.  My specialty is switching amplifiers
and I wrote the classic paper for Motorola on the subject, see
http://gonascent.com/papers/an1042.pdf .  Ripple in the dc from a
switching amplifier is less than a part per thousand.  These thermal
coolers have about a 10% efficiency which means it takes 10 Watts to
pump a Watt.  That is a tiny switching amplifier.  Ovens also require
several Watts if operated at -55° C.  Thermo coolers/heaters require
little power when operated close to room temperature.  Highest power
is required at high ambient temperatures.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γ
WB0KVV
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-June/date.html
-- Forwarded message --
From: Bruce Griffiths 
Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP5061B Versus HP5071 Cesium Line Frequencies
To: jimlux , Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement 


Thermomechanical fatigue can significantly reduce the lifetime of
Peltier devices if the ripple current flowing in the Peltier device is
too high. This can become an issue with switchmode drive to a Peltier
cooler.

Bruce


>
> On 03 June 2017 at 11:02 jimlux  wrote:
>
> On 6/2/17 2:51 PM, Donald E. Pauly wrote:
>
> > >
> > This is an improvement of 476 to 1. You apparently have not thought
> > thru what improvements are possible with thermal coolers/heaters.
> > Among these is near instant warm up and greatly reduced power for
> > thermal management.
> >
> > >
> without getting into the whole crystal issue, one of the advantages of a
> heater is that it can be VERY simple (and hence reliable, just on a
> parts count basis). With a decent package, once it's hot, the power
> required to keep it hot can be quite low.
>
> With a heat/cool, you need to be able to have a bipolar supply to the
> peltier device, and they're not particularly efficient (that is, to
> extract 1 Watt of heat, you're putting in significantly more than 1 watt
> of DC, and rejecting 1+X watts to the outside world.
>
> And then, if you use a linear power supply/amplifier to drive the
> device, that is probably a class A device, and somewhat lossy. A
> switcher would be more efficient, but then you have the problem of
> switching noise, in close proximity to the crystal. You could put a big
> low pass filter in, but now you're adding even more components.
>
> There are undoubtedly some cases where the thermoelectric scheme would
> work better - for instance, you have a system with a TCXO and it's
> really set up for the TCXO to be at 25C, and you want to regulate that.
>
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[time-nuts] Fwd: HP10811 Oscillator Thermal Fuse

[Donald E. Pauly]

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-Jun/date.html

We finally got in the Panasonic thermal fuses for the HP10811 and have
a few extra.  They will either plug in or solder.  Contact me if you
need one.

πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
WB0KVV

-- Forwarded message --
From: Van Horn, David 
Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP10811 Oscillator Thermal Fuse
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

The original article was from Kodiak consulting.  Good thing I saved a copy.
Thanks for the link to this one.
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Hal Murray]

A highlight lecture from IAC 2010, presented by GPS pioneer Bradford 
Parkinson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flo-lQ1uyP0

Runs for an hour.

Lots of history.  He includes some details interesting to time-nuts and 
radio-nuts.



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