Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

Thank you, Ralph!

Indeed, I had tarred up the branch on github with your original code, 
not the branch with my changes...how embarrassing!


I've updated the tarball and re-arranged the page to make it easier to 
find the latest.


Also, if you make an official version I'll remove my download and just 
put back the startup scripts that I have added.  Note that I didn't 
touch gpsclientd...


Leigh/WA5ZNU

On 08/01/2017 09:37 AM, Ralph Smith wrote:

Thanks for doing this, I was just about to dive into this. I've been neck deep 
in some other things recently and just became aware of this issue.

Could you check the source tarball? I just downloaded it and it appears to be 
the unmodified version of my code from 2010.

Ralph
AB4RS

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 1, 2017, at 2:42 AM, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU  wrote:

Based on Mark Sims updates to Heather v5.0 I've updated Ralph Smith's NTP 
daemon to handle the rollover.  I haven't updated the gpsd.

https://wa5znu.org/2011/08/tbolt/

It's not as ambitious as Mark's update; this one doesn't read system time so it 
will have to be recompiled again in about 20 years.
I took Mark's Julian and Gregorian date calculations as is ;-)

This is running now as well as it ever did.  Thanks for the great community.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[jimlux]

On 8/1/17 12:11 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

Dider:

This is a CDMA signal. (With a 'chip' rate that far exceeds the information
rate.)

If you put a different correlator on every multipath signal, which are each
differently delayed in time, then they can be independently demodulated.
(Or time shifted and added back together with some quality indicator for
weighting.)
So, in CDMA, multipath is used as a form of (time) diversity reception and
will improve the signal to noise of the combined signal.

By definition, the signal with the least time delay either is, or is
closest to, the most direct path.

You don't have to necessarily fully demodulate this early signal by itself,
just know what its timing is. (And remember where it was, if fading in and
out.)

Since multi-path is a destructive mechanism in most narrow band radio
systems, the above may not be intuitive to people not familiar with CDMA
and "rake receiver" based systems.

Multipath helps, not hurts, these systems, as long as the multipath delays
are most of one chip apart, or more.



For GPS raw (off the air), when they post process at JPL, they use a 
fairly sophisticated correlation process, incorporating an estimator of 
the underlying time delay trajectory: you can use a later "big peak" to 
help recover the early "first peak", for instance.


Rake receivers (under the name "adaptive equalizers") are also why 
digital TV works fairly well in high multipath environments - with 
modern receivers that do this.




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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for OSA 3210 information

[Magnus Danielson]

Dear Ulrich,

They tend to show up every here and there.
They tend to find me.

Cesiums is so much your milage may vary, some will be DOA for sure, some 
might need more or less work.


Got four that need more work.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/01/2017 09:44 PM, ka2...@aol.com wrote:

Who is selling "used" Cesium standards ?   Ulrich

In a message dated 8/1/2017 3:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi Skip,

Björn called me and made me aware of your need. I had already seen it
briefly, but I was doing a music festival, så no ability to do anything
about it.

Anyway, I have the full OSA 3000 manual, but the 3210 manual I got
electronically is similar enough. I serviced 7 of these, but no major
problems so far, got 5 of them myself.

Toss a separate email with an electronic version. Let me know if you
need something scanned from my original manual.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/31/2017 09:35 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:
> Hello time-nuts,
>
> I'm looking for a User Manual or Service Manual for the
Oscilloquartz OSA
> 3210 cesium standard.  So far my search has turned up nothing.
TVB as a
> User Manual for the OSA3200, which I assume is an earlier (though
similar
> model).
>
> The cesium unit is an OSA 3000 and any documentation on it would be a
> start.  The unit that I have has an 8612 oscillator in it.
>
> Electronic copies would be great, but I'm always willing to pay
> shipping/copy costs for hardcopy.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
>
>


> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>


> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[jimlux]

On 8/1/17 11:11 AM, Didier Juges wrote:

"The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case of
GPS, that
gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a
direct result
of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late
1990’s. That’s
a long time in silicon years …."

It seems that more correlators would speed up the time to first fix, not
necessarily the sensitivity, particularly I do not see how it would
directly affect the capability to stay locked when signal strength
fluctuates?
On the other hand, more correlators may help when there is multipath and a
whole bunch of extraneous signals are fed into the receiver, so maybe the
apparent lack of sensitivity is really the inability to see the signal from
the chaff, not necessarily sensitivity in terms of noise figure.





There's also "more sophisticated correlators" and "more sophisticated 
tracking loops" that are enabled by more computational horsepower.  The 
days of "independent" PN tracking loops for each signal are probably 
long gone, and there's clever "aiding" of the loops by estimating the 
on-the-fly variations.




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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for OSA 3210 information

[KA2WEU--- via time-nuts]

Who is selling "used" Cesium standards ?   Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 8/1/2017 3:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Hi  Skip,

Björn called me and made me aware of your need. I had already  seen it 
briefly, but I was doing a music festival, så no ability to do  anything 
about it.

Anyway, I have the full OSA 3000 manual, but the  3210 manual I got 
electronically is similar enough. I serviced 7 of these,  but no major 
problems so far, got 5 of them myself.

Toss a separate  email with an electronic version. Let me know if you 
need something  scanned from my original manual.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/31/2017  09:35 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:
> Hello time-nuts,
>
> I'm  looking for a User Manual or Service Manual for the Oscilloquartz OSA
>  3210 cesium standard.  So far my search has turned up nothing.  TVB  as a
> User Manual for the OSA3200, which I assume is an earlier (though  similar
> model).
>
> The cesium unit is an OSA 3000 and any  documentation on it would be a
> start.  The unit that I have has  an 8612 oscillator in it.
>
> Electronic copies would be great,  but I'm always willing to pay
> shipping/copy costs for  hardcopy.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Regards,
>  Skip Withrow
>
>  

>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>  

>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for OSA 3210 information

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Skip,

Björn called me and made me aware of your need. I had already seen it 
briefly, but I was doing a music festival, så no ability to do anything 
about it.


Anyway, I have the full OSA 3000 manual, but the 3210 manual I got 
electronically is similar enough. I serviced 7 of these, but no major 
problems so far, got 5 of them myself.


Toss a separate email with an electronic version. Let me know if you 
need something scanned from my original manual.


Cheers,
Magnus

On 07/31/2017 09:35 PM, Skip Withrow wrote:

Hello time-nuts,

I'm looking for a User Manual or Service Manual for the Oscilloquartz OSA
3210 cesium standard.  So far my search has turned up nothing.  TVB as a
User Manual for the OSA3200, which I assume is an earlier (though similar
model).

The cesium unit is an OSA 3000 and any documentation on it would be a
start.  The unit that I have has an 8612 oscillator in it.

Electronic copies would be great, but I'm always willing to pay
shipping/copy costs for hardcopy.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Skip Withrow


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Didier Juges]

" having around 20 dB of gain at the antenna greatly decreases the effect
of feed line loss on noise figure."

And that would be consistent with usage for a timing receiver which is
expected to have a well exposed antenna and a significant line length, as
opposed to navigation receivers where the antenna is expected to have a
short feed line.

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Jerry:
>
> The Trimble is the oldest mass produced GPS receiver I know of and because
> the early receivers used high gain antennas it seems that Trimble kept that
> idea for the newer designs. They like about 41 dB gain between the antenna
> and the input to the receiver.
> http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#Ant
> Newer designs probably place that gain in the front end rather than at the
> antenna.  But having around 20 dB of gain at the antenna gretly decreases
> the effect of feed line loss on noise figure.
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
>> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse but
>> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
>> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR
>> ham
>> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO
>> using
>> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had
>> satellite
>> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for its
>> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
>> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The
>> specs
>> for the patch antenna are listed below.
>>
>>
>> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
>>
>>
>> Jerry NY2KW
>>
>>
>> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
>>
>> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
>>
>> Band Width ±5 MHz
>>
>> Impendence 50 ohm
>>
>> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
>>
>> Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)
>>
>> Polarization RHCP
>>
>> LNA/Filter
>>
>> LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB
>>
>> Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.
>>
>> Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)
>>
>> 7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ
>>
>> 20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ
>>
>> 30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ
>>
>> V.S.W.R <2.0
>>
>> DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other
>>
>> DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Graham / KE9H]

Dider:

This is a CDMA signal. (With a 'chip' rate that far exceeds the information
rate.)

If you put a different correlator on every multipath signal, which are each
differently delayed in time, then they can be independently demodulated.
(Or time shifted and added back together with some quality indicator for
weighting.)
So, in CDMA, multipath is used as a form of (time) diversity reception and
will improve the signal to noise of the combined signal.

By definition, the signal with the least time delay either is, or is
closest to, the most direct path.

You don't have to necessarily fully demodulate this early signal by itself,
just know what its timing is. (And remember where it was, if fading in and
out.)

Since multi-path is a destructive mechanism in most narrow band radio
systems, the above may not be intuitive to people not familiar with CDMA
and "rake receiver" based systems.

Multipath helps, not hurts, these systems, as long as the multipath delays
are most of one chip apart, or more.

--- Graham

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:

> "The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case of
> GPS, that
> gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a
> direct result
> of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late
> 1990’s. That’s
> a long time in silicon years …."
>
> It seems that more correlators would speed up the time to first fix, not
> necessarily the sensitivity, particularly I do not see how it would
> directly affect the capability to stay locked when signal strength
> fluctuates?
> On the other hand, more correlators may help when there is multipath and a
> whole bunch of extraneous signals are fed into the receiver, so maybe the
> apparent lack of sensitivity is really the inability to see the signal from
> the chaff, not necessarily sensitivity in terms of noise figure.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > > On Jul 31, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:
> > >
> > > The Thunderbolt is well known for not having the best sensitivity among
> > GPS
> > > receivers. It seems that timing receivers in general, particularly
> those
> > of
> > > the same generation as the Thunderbolt are not as sensitive as
> navigation
> > > (possibly newer) GPS receivers. It may be because they are expected to
> > run
> > > with amplified antennas?
> >
> > The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case
> of
> > GPS, that
> > gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a
> > direct result
> > of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late
> > 1990’s. That’s
> > a long time in silicon years ….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Based on the spec you wrote, it looks like your antenna has no gain, so
> > > definitely I would expect less than good performance.
> > >
> > > My 3 Thunderbolts have been running with inside antennas (2 pucks and
> one
> > > Trimble Bullet) but my ham shack is upstairs and other than the ceiling
> > and
> > > the shingle roof, there are no other obstructions and they are doing OK
> > not
> > > great (all 3 go on holdover somewhat regularly). I am now running one
> > > downstairs (while I work on the new software for the TB Monitor) with
> 50
> > > feet of RG-58 going to a HP 58532A antenna somewhat in the clear but
> > only 8
> > > feet above ground with significant obstructions in pretty much all
> > > directions due to the low height and the Thunderbolt is happy as a clam
> > in
> > > spite of the significant losses in the cable. The HP antenna works much
> > > better than the Trimble Bullet antenna.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Jerry  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
> > >> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse
> > but
> > >> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I
> recently
> > >> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my
> SDR
> > >> ham
> > >> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO
> > using
> > >> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had
> > satellite
> > >> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for
> > its
> > >> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
> > >> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The
> > specs
> > >> for the patch antenna are listed below.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Jerry NY2KW
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
> > >>
> > >> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
> > >>
> > >> Band Width ±5 MHz
> > >>
> > >> Impendence 50 ohm
> > >>
> > >> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
> > >>
> > >> Gain 

Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt - trouble locking with some types of antennas

[Didier Juges]

"The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case of
GPS, that
gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a
direct result
of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late
1990’s. That’s
a long time in silicon years …."

It seems that more correlators would speed up the time to first fix, not
necessarily the sensitivity, particularly I do not see how it would
directly affect the capability to stay locked when signal strength
fluctuates?
On the other hand, more correlators may help when there is multipath and a
whole bunch of extraneous signals are fed into the receiver, so maybe the
apparent lack of sensitivity is really the inability to see the signal from
the chaff, not necessarily sensitivity in terms of noise figure.


On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Jul 31, 2017, at 3:32 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:
> >
> > The Thunderbolt is well known for not having the best sensitivity among
> GPS
> > receivers. It seems that timing receivers in general, particularly those
> of
> > the same generation as the Thunderbolt are not as sensitive as navigation
> > (possibly newer) GPS receivers. It may be because they are expected to
> run
> > with amplified antennas?
>
> The newer the receiver, the more horsepower in the silicon. In the case of
> GPS, that
> gives you more correlators to do DSP. The sensitivity improvement is a
> direct result
> of that. If you take a look at the guts of a TBolt, they date to the late
> 1990’s. That’s
> a long time in silicon years ….
>
> Bob
>
>
> >
> > Based on the spec you wrote, it looks like your antenna has no gain, so
> > definitely I would expect less than good performance.
> >
> > My 3 Thunderbolts have been running with inside antennas (2 pucks and one
> > Trimble Bullet) but my ham shack is upstairs and other than the ceiling
> and
> > the shingle roof, there are no other obstructions and they are doing OK
> not
> > great (all 3 go on holdover somewhat regularly). I am now running one
> > downstairs (while I work on the new software for the TB Monitor) with 50
> > feet of RG-58 going to a HP 58532A antenna somewhat in the clear but
> only 8
> > feet above ground with significant obstructions in pretty much all
> > directions due to the low height and the Thunderbolt is happy as a clam
> in
> > spite of the significant losses in the cable. The HP antenna works much
> > better than the Trimble Bullet antenna.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Jerry  wrote:
> >
> >> Due to access problems, I run my Thunderbolt with a Symmetricom 58532A
> >> antenna placed indoor near a window facing South… can’t get much worse
> but
> >> most of the time it will be locked onto 3 or 4 satellites.I recently
> >> bought a www.leobodnar.com   GPSDO for my SDR
> >> ham
> >> radio setup.  I was very surprised to find that this minimalist GPSDO
> using
> >> a small patch antenna with internal LNA placed near my window had
> satellite
> >> & PPL lock within a few seconds.  It requires 3-4 satellite locks for
> its
> >> PPL.  However, when I attached the patch antenna to my Thunderbolt –
> >> satellite signal strength were zero or minus for all satellites.  The
> specs
> >> for the patch antenna are listed below.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I would appreciate any advice understanding this behavior.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Jerry NY2KW
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Center Frequency 1575.42MHz±3 MHz
> >>
> >> V.S.W.R 1.5:1
> >>
> >> Band Width ±5 MHz
> >>
> >> Impendence 50 ohm
> >>
> >> Peak Gain >3dBic Based on 7×7cm ground plane
> >>
> >> Gain Coverage >-4dBic at –90°<0<+90°(over 75% Volume)
> >>
> >> Polarization RHCP
> >>
> >> LNA/Filter
> >>
> >> LNA Gain (Without cable) 28+/-3dB
> >>
> >> Noise Figure 1.5dB Typ.
> >>
> >> Filter Out Band Attenuation (f° =1575.42MHz)
> >>
> >> 7dB Min f0+/-20MHZ
> >>
> >> 20dB Min f0+/-50MHZ
> >>
> >> 30dB Min f0+/-100MHZ
> >>
> >> V.S.W.R <2.0
> >>
> >> DC Voltage 2.7V/3.0V/3.3V/5.0V/3.0V to 5.0V/other
> >>
> >> DC Current 5mA /11mA/15mA Max
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Ralph Smith]

Thanks for doing this, I was just about to dive into this. I've been neck deep 
in some other things recently and just became aware of this issue. 

Could you check the source tarball? I just downloaded it and it appears to be 
the unmodified version of my code from 2010. 

Ralph
AB4RS

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 2:42 AM, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU  
> wrote:
> 
> Based on Mark Sims updates to Heather v5.0 I've updated Ralph Smith's NTP 
> daemon to handle the rollover.  I haven't updated the gpsd.
> 
> https://wa5znu.org/2011/08/tbolt/
> 
> It's not as ambitious as Mark's update; this one doesn't read system time so 
> it will have to be recompiled again in about 20 years.
> I took Mark's Julian and Gregorian date calculations as is ;-)
> 
> This is running now as well as it ever did.  Thanks for the great community.
> 
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU]

Based on Mark Sims updates to Heather v5.0 I've updated Ralph Smith's 
NTP daemon to handle the rollover.  I haven't updated the gpsd.


https://wa5znu.org/2011/08/tbolt/

It's not as ambitious as Mark's update; this one doesn't read system 
time so it will have to be recompiled again in about 20 years.

I took Mark's Julian and Gregorian date calculations as is ;-)

This is running now as well as it ever did.  Thanks for the great community.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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