Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The “compelling case” for the CSAC is the combination of low power and long 
term stability.
You can get OCXO’s that run less power. A TCXO that uses less power is trivial. 
Temperature 
stability wise, there are TCXO’s that get pretty close (= factor of 10) to 
overlapping with the CSAC. 
There is nothing out there that will do the 1 month stability at anything close 
to the same power level. 
The CSAC is unique in that respect. Can you find most of this on eBay? Well, 
wait a decade or two …..

As a source for a radio project, the CSAC *really* needs a cleanup oscillator. 
That’s not a knock on
the part. The cleanup oscillator may well use more power than the entire CSAC. 
Let those who 
really need it add it on to their systems. 

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> Ronald,
> 
> What exactly motivated specifically CSAC for you?
> 
> There might be other cheaper alternatives to your problem.
> 
> For me CSAC solves a problem within very specific set of parameters,
> where low powerconsumption is one of them. Depending on the actual
> details of the application a TCXO might be a better choice, or even some
> OCXOs.
> 
> It's not that I want to deny you the fun of toying with CSAC, I have
> three myself, but if you don't really need what it is good for, other
> choices might be better. Also, the one place for such advice is for sure
> this email list where a lot of experience is gathered and ready to share.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 01/22/2018 12:09 AM, Ronald Held wrote:
>> Thanks for all the information. Have not kept up with the price, but
>> ~$6K  is too much to afford right now  By the time I can I hope it
>> doesn't go up .
>> 
>>Ronald
>> 
>> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 17:50:48 -0800
>> From: jimlux 
>> To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase
>> Message-ID: <5b9271c4-734d-e8e0-f092-a143126c2...@earthlink.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>> 
>> On 1/20/18 5:05 PM, Ronald Held wrote:
>>> I am thinking of buying a CSAC plus evaluation board.
>>> Eventually I might want to make it portable. Any suggestions including
>>> where to buy it?
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> MicroSemi is the manufacturer - Find a distributor and order it.
>> 
>> For instance, Digikey has the CSAC ($5312.50) and the eval board ($928.75)
>> 
>> portable isn't a problem - just run it off batteries.
>> 
>> It's pretty easy to hook up - power, 1pps in and out and 10 MHz out
>> (they have versions that put out 5, 10.24, and 16.384 MHz too).
>> 
>> A serial port to control the device
>> 
>> The eval board has SMA connectors, a sub-d for the serial port, and
>> comes with a wall wart to run it.
>> 
>> Download the Microsemi CSAC UserGuide for more info
>> 
>> you can fool with the disciplining algorithm, etc.
>> It's a low power device compared to a OCXO (<120mW)
>> 
>> They're a pretty nifty device, even if the price more than tripled in
>> the last couple years.
>> 
>> 
>> Jackson Labs makes some integrated systems using CSAC, I believe.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase

[Magnus Danielson]

Ronald,

What exactly motivated specifically CSAC for you?

There might be other cheaper alternatives to your problem.

For me CSAC solves a problem within very specific set of parameters,
where low powerconsumption is one of them. Depending on the actual
details of the application a TCXO might be a better choice, or even some
OCXOs.

It's not that I want to deny you the fun of toying with CSAC, I have
three myself, but if you don't really need what it is good for, other
choices might be better. Also, the one place for such advice is for sure
this email list where a lot of experience is gathered and ready to share.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/22/2018 12:09 AM, Ronald Held wrote:
> Thanks for all the information. Have not kept up with the price, but
> ~$6K  is too much to afford right now  By the time I can I hope it
> doesn't go up .
> 
> Ronald
> 
> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 17:50:48 -0800
> From: jimlux 
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase
> Message-ID: <5b9271c4-734d-e8e0-f092-a143126c2...@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 1/20/18 5:05 PM, Ronald Held wrote:
>> I am thinking of buying a CSAC plus evaluation board.
>> Eventually I might want to make it portable. Any suggestions including
>> where to buy it?
>>
> 
> 
> MicroSemi is the manufacturer - Find a distributor and order it.
> 
> For instance, Digikey has the CSAC ($5312.50) and the eval board ($928.75)
> 
> portable isn't a problem - just run it off batteries.
> 
> It's pretty easy to hook up - power, 1pps in and out and 10 MHz out
> (they have versions that put out 5, 10.24, and 16.384 MHz too).
> 
> A serial port to control the device
> 
> The eval board has SMA connectors, a sub-d for the serial port, and
> comes with a wall wart to run it.
> 
> Download the Microsemi CSAC UserGuide for more info
> 
> you can fool with the disciplining algorithm, etc.
> It's a low power device compared to a OCXO (<120mW)
> 
> They're a pretty nifty device, even if the price more than tripled in
> the last couple years.
> 
> 
> Jackson Labs makes some integrated systems using CSAC, I believe.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase

[Ronald Held]

Thanks for all the information. Have not kept up with the price, but
~$6K  is too much to afford right now  By the time I can I hope it
doesn't go up .

Ronald

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 17:50:48 -0800
From: jimlux 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] CSAC purchase
Message-ID: <5b9271c4-734d-e8e0-f092-a143126c2...@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 1/20/18 5:05 PM, Ronald Held wrote:
> I am thinking of buying a CSAC plus evaluation board.
> Eventually I might want to make it portable. Any suggestions including
> where to buy it?
>


MicroSemi is the manufacturer - Find a distributor and order it.

For instance, Digikey has the CSAC ($5312.50) and the eval board ($928.75)

portable isn't a problem - just run it off batteries.

It's pretty easy to hook up - power, 1pps in and out and 10 MHz out
(they have versions that put out 5, 10.24, and 16.384 MHz too).

A serial port to control the device

The eval board has SMA connectors, a sub-d for the serial port, and
comes with a wall wart to run it.

Download the Microsemi CSAC UserGuide for more info

you can fool with the disciplining algorithm, etc.
It's a low power device compared to a OCXO (<120mW)

They're a pretty nifty device, even if the price more than tripled in
the last couple years.


Jackson Labs makes some integrated systems using CSAC, I believe.
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Re: [time-nuts] minimalist sine to square

[Bruce Griffiths]

I wonder what the timing jitter is like.

It may be useful to measure it along with its additive PN.

Bruce

> 
> On 22 January 2018 at 07:31 Robert LaJeunesse  wrote:
> 
> How about using a single 8-pin DIP IC that is under $2.50? The Microchip 
> MIC4422AYN "gate driver" takes a 3.3V signal in and produces a fast 
> rail-to-rail output swing, with a 4.5V to 18V supply range. Typical output 
> resistance is sub 1 Ohm, so not a problem driving a series back-terminated 50 
> Ohm load. Note the 4422's rise and fall times are specified with a 10,000pF 
> load, given the primarily resistive load in this case the rise and fall 
> should be sub 10 ns (per p.5 of the data sheet). But do use beefy lo-Z traces 
> and hefty broadband supply bypassing, the MIC4422 can pump up to 9A into its 
> intended load.
> 
> Bob L.
> 
> > > 
> > Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 2:43 PM
> > From: "Jerry Hancock" 
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] minimalist sine to square
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > Now that I had the input conditioned, I need to drive a 50ohm load 
> > with the signal coming from the PICDIV. Can someone point me at a circuit 
> > using transistors and 10V if possible?
> > 
> > I am trying to duplicate one channel of the TADD2 so I can bring 
> > 10Mhz down to 10Khz.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Jerry
> > 
> > > 
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Re: [time-nuts] minimalist sine to square

[Robert LaJeunesse]

How about using a single 8-pin DIP IC that is under $2.50? The Microchip 
MIC4422AYN "gate driver" takes a 3.3V signal in and produces a fast 
rail-to-rail output swing, with a 4.5V to 18V supply range. Typical output 
resistance is sub 1 Ohm, so not a problem driving a series back-terminated 50 
Ohm load. Note the 4422's rise and fall times are specified with a 10,000pF 
load, given the primarily resistive load in this case the rise and fall should 
be sub 10 ns (per p.5 of the data sheet). But do use beefy lo-Z traces and 
hefty broadband supply bypassing, the MIC4422 can pump up to 9A into its 
intended load.

Bob L.

> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 2:43 PM
> From: "Jerry Hancock" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] minimalist sine to square
>
> ...
> 
> Now that I had the input conditioned, I need to drive a 50ohm load with the 
> signal coming from the PICDIV.  Can someone point me at a circuit using 
> transistors and 10V if possible?
> 
> I am trying to duplicate one channel of the TADD2 so I can bring 10Mhz down 
> to 10Khz.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Time interval measurement vs dual mixer method

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

What level of stability are you trying to measure?

What sort of offset frequency are you running? 

What kind (phase noise / spurs / adev) offset oscillator are you using? 

What sort of limiter are you running with what sort of pre filtering?

We have run around on a lot of generalities. You may have some issues 
that are specific to your setup. There is no “one size fits all” approach here.
If you are running a couple of oscillators it the THz region and trying to look
at ADEV from 1us to two months tau with one setup, a lot of what we have
been saying simply does not apply.

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2018, at 4:23 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote:
> 
> 
>   Corby,
>   thanks for the information.
> 
>   I'm definitely interested in the short therm ADEV but especially for Tau 
> from 1 day and over to test high stability standard over the time.
>   I will have further tests.
>   Cheers,
>   Luciano
> 
> 
>   Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
>   A time-nuts@febo.com
>   Cc
>   Data Sat, 20 Jan 2018 16:14:10 -0800
>   Oggetto [time-nuts] Time interval measurement vs dual mixer method
>   Luciano,
> 
>   I don't know of a commercial version.
> 
>   As you have seen as the two signals move away from close phase
>   coincidence the system noise level will increase.
> 
>   This is because the common offset oscillator noise will only cancel when
>   the phases are closely matching.
> 
>   This is mainly important for the lower Tau (like 1 to 10 seconds).
> 
>   I will normally adjust the phase of my reference or DUT so that myTIC is
>   reading 0.0XX (close to phase match) and very slowly rising. (with my
>   setup most DUT will age downward).
> 
>   Then I start logging the data.
> 
>   A typical run with a 1 week aged quartz will show the TIC count slowly
>   increase (and may wrap) and then as the aging continues the count will
>   reverse and eventually go "below" zero and wrap.
> 
>   A phase plot will show a nice parabolic looking curve going up and then
>   as the aging crosses it will curve down.
> 
>   If there are wraps the plotter program can take them out.
> 
>   Any long plot of Quartz WILL wrap!
> 
>   Now if you plot the AD you will see a normal type plot for a good Quartz.
> 
>   If the TIC count increased well past coincidence only the Higher Taus
>   will be accurate.
> 
>   For the lower Tau you need to cut off the data past where it climbed too
>   high.
> 
>   I typically will setup as described and run a short log of say 5 minutes.
> 
>   I might only keep the first 100 Seconds and plot the AD against that.
> 
>   This will give you an accurate plot for the lower Tau.
> 
>   These two plots can then be combined to give you the whole range.
> 
>   The attached plot of an FE405B illustrates this.
> 
>   The Red plot is against a very good FTS 1200 (2X10-13th at 1 thru just
>   past 10 Sec)
> 
>   The blue continuation is against a very good HP 5065A (1.5X10-13th at 100
>   Sec)
> 
>   So if the lower Tau are important only use logged data that are in near
>   phase match!
> 
>   Hope this helps!
> 
>   Cheers,
> 
>   Corby
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Re: [time-nuts] Time interval measurement vs dual mixer method

[tim...@timeok.it]

   Corby,
   thanks for the information.

   I'm definitely interested in the short therm ADEV but especially for Tau 
from 1 day and over to test high stability standard over the time.
   I will have further tests.
   Cheers,
   Luciano


   Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
   A time-nuts@febo.com
   Cc
   Data Sat, 20 Jan 2018 16:14:10 -0800
   Oggetto [time-nuts] Time interval measurement vs dual mixer method
   Luciano,

   I don't know of a commercial version.

   As you have seen as the two signals move away from close phase
   coincidence the system noise level will increase.

   This is because the common offset oscillator noise will only cancel when
   the phases are closely matching.

   This is mainly important for the lower Tau (like 1 to 10 seconds).

   I will normally adjust the phase of my reference or DUT so that myTIC is
   reading 0.0XX (close to phase match) and very slowly rising. (with my
   setup most DUT will age downward).

   Then I start logging the data.

   A typical run with a 1 week aged quartz will show the TIC count slowly
   increase (and may wrap) and then as the aging continues the count will
   reverse and eventually go "below" zero and wrap.

   A phase plot will show a nice parabolic looking curve going up and then
   as the aging crosses it will curve down.

   If there are wraps the plotter program can take them out.

   Any long plot of Quartz WILL wrap!

   Now if you plot the AD you will see a normal type plot for a good Quartz.

   If the TIC count increased well past coincidence only the Higher Taus
   will be accurate.

   For the lower Tau you need to cut off the data past where it climbed too
   high.

   I typically will setup as described and run a short log of say 5 minutes.

   I might only keep the first 100 Seconds and plot the AD against that.

   This will give you an accurate plot for the lower Tau.

   These two plots can then be combined to give you the whole range.

   The attached plot of an FE405B illustrates this.

   The Red plot is against a very good FTS 1200 (2X10-13th at 1 thru just
   past 10 Sec)

   The blue continuation is against a very good HP 5065A (1.5X10-13th at 100
   Sec)

   So if the lower Tau are important only use logged data that are in near
   phase match!

   Hope this helps!

   Cheers,

   Corby
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