[time-nuts] timelab（http://www.miles.io/timelab/readme.htm） and HP3132a

[weijiazhen]

I want to use software timelab（http://www.miles.io/timelab/readme.htm） and 
HP3132a to test 2 rubidium 10MHz ADEV, I don't know how to use TI mode (time 
interval), please help me how to operate.
I have 2 10MHz channels, 1 and 2, software Acquire---HP 
53131A/53132A/53181A---start measurement, but test ADEV is wrong. The curves of 
each measurement vary greatly.

wei
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[time-nuts] Environmental sensor recommendations

[Mark Sims]

Lady Heather has a very nice temperature control PID in it (designed by Warren 
Sarkisen).  It was originally designed to stabilize the temperature of a 
Thunderbolt GPSDO.  The standard Thunderbolt OCXO is rather temperature 
sensitive.  

The standard/simple implementation involves sticking the Thunderbolt in a 
cardboard box with some thermal mass and baffling.  Heather then PWMs a fan (at 
1 Hz, using the serial port modem control signals and a DC solid state relay) 
to mix room temperature air into the box.   It can control the temperature 
readings to around 0.01C with long term RMS errors in the low microdegree range 
 (absolute accuracy depends upon the temp sensor).

---

> I would suggest that if you are looking at taking temperature sensor data
and attempting to control some type of heating/cooling device that you
implement a PID loop for stability.
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[time-nuts] Environmental sensor recommendations

[Tisha Hayes]

I would suggest that if you are looking at taking temperature sensor data
and attempting to control some type of heating/cooling device that you
implement a PID loop for stability.

https://www.crossco.com/blog/basics-tuning-pid-loops

Many simplistic approaches use an ON-OFF controller to turn on cooling or
heaters. These can make your stability problems worse than if you just
wrapped things up in an insulating blanket. You end up cycling from one
extreme to the next.

PID loops when properly tuned will vary the speed, current or duty cycle as
the temperature approaches a set-point. This avoids overshoot and gives
much finer control over the temperature.

We used to use 4 wire platinum probes to measure temperature down to the
hundredth of a degree. Then for control of the heater element we had a PWM
(pulse width modulated) supply. Once the loop was tuned (to minimize
positive feedback that causes increasingly crazy oscillations in
temperature while at the same time settling in once the temperature soaked
through the mass) we could hold a set-point through some wild external
temperature extremes.

There are software implementations of PID (Proportional, Integral,
Derivative) that are pretty easy to understand. There are also surplus
temperature controllers on eBay that can accomplish the same thing.

*Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA*
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[time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements

[Mark Sims]

The TICC is a very nice device.  A LOT of bang for the buck.Highly 
recommended.

Lady Heather supports it (you can actually connect two for 4 channel operation) 
and can run under Linux.   It provides most of the basic functionality of 
Timelab (with less pretty plots).
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Re: [time-nuts] Environmental sensor recommendations

[Hal Murray]

> Are there any recommendations for other off-the-shelf sensors=
>  worth looking at?

Consider the TEMPer USB units from eBay.  Their main advantage is low cost.  
They have a temperature sensor in a thumb drive size USB module.  At least 
one model comes with a slightly bulky sensor on the end of a 3ft cable.

Most of the low cost units have a fairly coarse step size.  Please let me/us 
know if you find (or build) a good high resolution setup.  I assume that will 
be a thermistor and good DAC.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Environmental sensor recommendations

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo Mark!

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 00:58:50 +
Mark Sims  wrote:

> Are there any recommendations for
> other off-the-shelf sensors worth looking at?

I use several of the TEMPer series.  

http://pcsensor.com/usb-thermometer/temper1f.html

The TEMPer1F has a local and a remote temperature sensor.
The TEMPer1F_H1 has a remote etmperature/humidity sensor.
The basic TEMPerGold has one temp sensor, is the size of a thumbdrive
and costs under $10.

All easy to use.  Gotta be careful, a ton of slightly different
versions on the market.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
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[time-nuts] Environmental sensor recommendations

[Mark Sims]

I recently (mostly)  finished adding external environmental sensor support to 
Lady Heather.   You can use the sensor as the primary "receiver" device or in 
conjunction with any of the "receivers" that Lady Heather supports (except 
currently the HP-5071A which uses the same plot queue entries as the 
environmental sensors).  Heather supports humidity, pressure, and two 
temperature values.

I am currently using a dogratian.com USB-PA sensor with temperature, humidity, 
and pressure.  I am also designing a Heather specific board (BME280, two 
thernistors, temperature controller interface, maybe a couple of ADC channels, 
etc).   Are there any recommendations for other off-the-shelf sensors worth 
looking at?

The main requirement is that the sensor should send data over a serial port or 
virtual serial port or maybe ethernet.   Ideally it would stream readings at 1 
Hz, but a polled device (like the dogratian.com devices) can be accomodated.
Also, it would be very nice if the temperature sensors are small, responsive, 
and on leads that could be attached to whatever is being monitored.

Attached is a screen dump of the USB-PA running.   Can you spot the furnace 
cycling and sunrise?
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Re: [time-nuts] Tracor 527 CRT

[Dan Rae]

On 4/4/2018 2:28 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:

Lat year some one from the UK asked me about a 1 inch CRT for the Tracor 527.

I sent David Partridge one at the time, so he is now happy.

Dan
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[time-nuts] TS2100: List of root commands?

[Bruce Lane]

Fellow time-tickers,

I just finished conversion of one of my TS2100's to OCXO, and I'm now
in the process of tweaking the EEPROM settings.

During my research, I came across (and, foolishly, didn't bookmark)
either a web page or a mailing list post which listed the 'root eng'
commands, and exactly how to enter them. I've been successful with 'root
eng ee gain' and 'root eng ee filter,' but I can't seem to get the
syntax down to set the D/A value.

Does this sound at all familiar?

Thanks much.

-- 
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
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Re: [time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements

[Gary E. Miller]

Time Nuts!

TL:DR: I decided to go with the Rb and TAPR-TICC.

Long story:

Thank you to all that made such good suggestions.  I think you pretty
much covered the spectrum of options to measuring PPS very nicely.

I'm tempted by the used 5370/5371 idea.  It has 150 ps resolution and
does a ton of fun things.  But they are large, power hungry (500W), and
only talk over GPIB.  I just want a TICC and the rest is overhead.  All
the cool charts, graphs and histograms on the CRT do me no good.

Boxes like the Racal 1992 and hp 5334b are more interesting.  Most
1991 on ebay are for parts only, and there are more web pages on how
to repair them than how to use them.  They only resolve down to 1 nano
second.  I do not see any of either on ebay with rs-232.

Since I'm just working with 5V and 3.3V logic levels, I don't need a
fancy front end, and output of logic level and/or USB serial is also
nice for using on a RasPi.

So I looked at the various hobbyist solutions.  There are some
'interpolator' designs, but I'd need to build them myself and they also
only get to around 1 nano second.  Some maybe a lot better performance,
but more than some assembly required.  Also I would have to figure out
how to measure my measuring tool to see what I got.

So, I'm back to the Rb and TAPR-TICC solution.  No one will seriously
question the Rb accuracy, at least when compared to GPS.  The TAPR-TICC
comes fully assembled, tested and specified.  Easy USB serial interface.
Just a tad more expensive than other solutions.  60 picosecond
resolution and less than 100 picosecond typical jitter.  ADev below
1x10-10.  All way better than I need, so few should argue with using it
to measure GPS PPS.

A few downsides. I'll have to write my own code for pretty graphs, but
at least I can do it on UNIX.  Not a total solution, I still need to
add a GPSDO and cable it all together.

Now I just have to wait for the postman.

Once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
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Re: [time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements

[Gary E. Miller]

Hal!

On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:06:43 -0700
Hal Murray  wrote:

> > What would you guys suggest as the cheapest way to see jitter down
> > to around 1 nano second? 
> 
> What do you mean by "jitter" and what do you really want to do?

I mean jitter as NTP defines jitter.  Whatever that is.

> Jitter usually needs a reference.  Do you have one?

I have a GPSDO, but that was why I was looking to add the Rubidium
standard to the mix.

> Do you have a scope?

Yup, still got my trusty Tek 465B, and it still works fine.  Cost
almost as much as a car when I bought it.

> The Rigol DS1102E is/was quite popular and is good for close to a
> ns. 

Nice, but not quite fast enough.  I've settled on the Rb+TAPR-TICC
solution.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin


pgpM_n6RkD_uQ.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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[time-nuts] Tracor 527 CRT

[ew via time-nuts]

Lat year some one from the UK asked me about a 1 inch CRT for the Tracor 527. I 
did respond that I thought I had one but out in one of the 45 Aple crates in 
the Garage. After 3 years from my move from Miami today I started serious 
downsizing and found a Telefunken DGP-12A do not know if it will work is new 
and very old but in its original round container.
Please contact me off list if you think it will work
Bert Kehren
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Re: [time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements

[Lars Walenius]

I would say my implementation is simpler than Nick’s:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lars-diy-gpsdo-with-arduino-and-1ns-resolution-tic/?all
 . It is just an Arduino+ two HCMOS and a few passive components.
>From the beginning Nick copied my interpolator. Later he added a FET that 
>might act as a constant current generator but I doubt it works very well. At 
>least the variance of the FET’s are to large. The temperature stability is not 
>that good either. So far I have not seen any tests of this. The Elektor GPS by 
>Joost Breed copied Nick’s interpolator and a graph from that shows large 
>non-linearities as I can see.
My simple interpolator that I linearize in software is not perfect but able to 
get down to about 1ns linearity by setting min-max and a square term. By using 
Tom Van Baak’s PICDIV 26 it is fairly easy to set the linearity. Information is 
in the instruction found on EEVblog. In the last pages I also enclosed ADEV, 
TDEV and a frequency plot direct from Timelab that works very well with the 
controller. ADEV at 1s is 8E-10.
Also I don’t think Nick sends out the ns direct (absolutely not linearized) on 
the serial port as I do. As I said before this works very well with timelab.
After a lot of testing I also thinks both my hardware and software is robust.
Otherwise I would recommend the TAPR-TICC that I nowadays use more than my 
5370. Good resolution and much lower power dissipation.
Lars

>From: Attila Kinali
Sent: den 3 april 2018 21:04

On Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:47:37 -0700
"Gary E. Miller"  wrote:

>> What would you guys suggest as the cheapest way to see jitter down to
>> around 1 nano second?

Look at Nick Sayers GPSDO and his interpolator. You wont get any
cheaper than that. Next best thing is to use a TDC7200 like in
the TICC.

Of course, you will need a standard that is stable enough on the
time scales you are looking at. Which is for short taus (<100s)
a good OCXO and for 1s to 10ks an Rb, and beyond that a Cs beam
standard or hydrogen maser.

Attila Kinali

--
The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
throw DARK chocolate at you.
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Re: [time-nuts] new longwave time service planned in India

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

It’s also *way* cheaper than putting up your own satellite based timing and 
navigation 
gear. I suspect that the whole “what if this or that set of  sat’s have 
issues?” thing is 
beginning to sink in ….

Bob

> On Apr 4, 2018, at 2:47 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message 
> 
> , paul swed writes:
> 
>> That is quite a surprise that a country is setting up a long wave system
>> these days.
> 
> I can see a lot of uses for it in India, from the railroads to the
> power-grid or even just emergency-warnings to the population.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Repairs and mods underway on HP 3586b

[Tisha Hayes]

Bob,
Thanks so much, as soon as I saw the key sequence I knew where that was
going!

If only more manufacturers had a sense of humor.

We had a test-jig in our development lab that would go through a repeating
sequence and spit out a text string for each step it completed;

"It slices"   *BEEP*
"It dices"*BEEP*
"It will cut a cow in half"  "BEEP,BEEP*

-ad infinitum

After that ran for a couple of days straight our engineering manager made
us move the jig to a room far far away from his office.
Tisha

*Ms. Tisha Hayes*


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Bob Darlington 
wrote:

> Tisha,
>
> Magnus encouraged me to share my "Happy Easter" with you, or at least this
> demo that's kinda like an easter egg:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MZpnVs6CWc
>
> Enjoy, all.
>
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Tisha Hayes  wrote:
>
> > Thanks to those who responded to my requests off-list for details on
> > correcting a partially functional HP 3586b. Here is where I am at with
> it;
> >
> > Replaced the incandescent lamp inside of the 5060-0329 rotary encoder
> for a
> > white LED with a resistor to work at 5VDC.
> > Ordered a 75 ohm BNC chassis jack
> > Installed two BNC-SMB cables for the 50 MHz connections that are normally
> > covered with blank plugs on the back panel
> > Removed all of the buttons and soaked them for a few hours in a mixture
> of
> > hydrogen peroxide and oxy-clean to remove the brownish oxidation
> > (in the process) of pulling the little wafer springs out of each switch
> and
> > rotating the metal around 180 degrees so the buttons do not need to make
> a
> > hard "click"
> > replaced the NiCad battery with an NiMH
> >
> > The unit already had the 10 MHz precision oscillator module (thanks to
> > Perry Sandeen for that).
> >
> > I have a couple of Rb standards that are already used for metrology
> > (spec-an's, tracking generators, R-590 and a couple of other receivers).
> I
> > will probably stick with those as frequency references as they are
> usually
> > running for days at a time.
> >
> > *Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA*
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] new longwave time service planned in India

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, paul swed writes:

>That is quite a surprise that a country is setting up a long wave system
>these days.

I can see a lot of uses for it in India, from the railroads to the
power-grid or even just emergency-warnings to the population.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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