Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
What's metric or Common Measure about seconds? ;) Bob On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Ah yes, God's units as revealed by the French. :-)my mistake Don Jim Palfreyman Gentlemen, gentlemen and gentlemen! We are time-nuts. Accuracy is paramount. We are scientists. Please steer clear of pounds, feet, cubic yards and other such rubbish. Scientists speak in metric and so should you. Please. Jim On 13 December 2011 16:24, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: or you can use a cubic yard of plain sand, about 2700# (depends on how moist it is) -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] filtering a 10Mhz frequency standard?
Paul Wade did a paper on 10Mhz GPSDO filtering for Microwave Update in October. It is in the proceedings. I don't know if it is available elsewhere. Bob On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:17 PM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: I think you would want to avoid crystal filters due to microphonics. I've found building good LCR filters harder in real life than on paper. (I've done plenty of leapfrog active filters from LCR based designs.) I've had to make a passive LCR for ADC testing and secondary (parasitic elements of nonideal component) come into play. Nowadays I just buy COTS. --Original Message-- From: Chris Albertson Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ReplyTo: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] filtering a 10Mhz frequency standard? Sent: Dec 12, 2011 5:54 PM What is the best practice for filtering a 10Mhz sine wave frequency standard? I've read that you can do more harm than good. Filter parts (caps, resistors and so on) are all temperature sensitive. But all those $40 Rb oscillators are putting out a pretty rough looking sine wave. Are some types of filters better. I thought about a crystal filters. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New York State Metrology lab
Much to my amazement, this morning I discovered that the State of New York, where I live, has their own Metrology lab less than a mile from my office. And are building a new lab. http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2011/12/07/that-building-going-up-on-the-state-campus-along-w#more And to my amazement, I'm pretty sure my time standards at home are a bit better than theirs. :) bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New York State Metrology lab
Ayup. For some definition of precision at least. :) On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 12/7/11 8:18 AM, Bob Bownes wrote: Much to my amazement, this morning I discovered that the State of New York, where I live, has their own Metrology lab less than a mile from my office. And are building a new lab. http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2011/12/07/that-building-going-up-on-the-state-campus-along-w#more And to my amazement, I'm pretty sure my time standards at home are a bit better than theirs. :) Yes, but do you have precision mass standards for feed scales at home? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] The GPS velocity of light versus neutrinos
Keep in mind that a common view or LOS light method will have a problem with the variability of the medium density along the path being unknown. You could do it in a vacuum however. I come back to the base question of 'since the speed of light varies depending on the medium, does the speed of the neutrino also vary, and if so, how?' On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: A good friend, who has written a lot of excellent real-time software, maintains that that it is impossible to find all of the systematic errors in something as complex as the GPS system. The error is small, 60 ns in 2.4 ms, about 3 E-5, for OPERA or 8 E-5 for MINOS. Has anyone measured the speed of light with GPS clocks in the same way that neutrinos are measured - say between mountain tops? Another way would be to get a common view light flash from a magnesium flare on a high altitude rocket. There's a lot at stake here. Many physicists will prematurely wear out their brains looking for the answer. Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net (already on all the spam lists) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Interference Question
Right. The fixed location apps are not all that hard. But the mobile ones are going to be a big problem. Not to mention getting them certified for the application. The GPS you have in your car is not certified for life critical applications. The one I have in my ambulance is. And let's not even get into commercial flight certification. A technical issue, but one verging on politics. To answer your question #3, it is one of two specific kinds of attenuator. Generally a band-pass (passes the GPS frequency only) or notch filter (attenuates the undesired frequency only). As Jim said, these things don't only impact the desired frequency. For more information, take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band-pass_filter Short answer, yes it can be done, in a limited set of applications. Until you reach layer 8. Bob On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Marco IK1ODO -2 ik1...@spin-it.com wrote: At 15:44 30-09-11, Jason wrote: To filter out the L2 signal, would an actual GPS receiver have to be replaced / modified? Or would a more simple and cheaper alternative be to get a new antenna (with fancy filtering) to replace my existing roof-top antenna and expect all my old equipment to be happy? I think that a new antenna/filter/amplifier unit would be ok. But the problem is the installed base of receivers, including all those costly units used for geodesy or navigation, that have embedded antennas. Those will be hard to modify. 73 - Marco IK1ODO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS Interference Question
Exactly. The narrower the filter, the more it will cost. In general. On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Tom Holmes thol...@woh.rr.com wrote: Sticking with the intent to keep this non-political, what good is a filter if the offending signal is within the necessary passband? Tom Holmes, N8ZM Tipp City, OH EM79 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 10:55 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Interference Question If LightSquared deploys their high powered LTE network in the satellite band the GPS world will become very interesting indeed. Are LightSquared willing to spend $20,000 to upgrade the GPS on my Skylane to a new model which does not yet exist? With that many transmitters we may experience areas where RF from multiple high power transmitters creates hot spots. In some places pieces of metal with non Ohmic bonds will create mixing products, some of which may fall directly within GPS bands. These effects have not been simulated. Who knows who the FCC is listening to - the GPS industry including millions of current users, or those who appear to have bought under the table favor. This could make Solyndra look like small change. Film at 11. On 09/30/2011 07:02 AM, Marco IK1ODO -2 wrote: At 15:44 30-09-11, Jason wrote: To filter out the L2 signal, would an actual GPS receiver have to be replaced / modified? Or would a more simple and cheaper alternative be to get a new antenna (with fancy filtering) to replace my existing roof-top antenna and expect all my old equipment to be happy? I think that a new antenna/filter/amplifier unit would be ok. But the problem is the installed base of receivers, including all those costly units used for geodesy or navigation, that have embedded antennas. Those will be hard to modify. 73 - Marco IK1ODO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino
As always, the answer is 'it depends'. :) Solid rock? Liquid rock? Gaseous rock? Plasma? :) Wavelength? A nice light rock like calcite it probably isn't too tough to measure. Si02 is pretty easy too, I'm sure. For classic basaltic or feldspathic rocks, I suspect you are going to need something well outside the visible spectrum. At least in the first two phases. Not to mention the issues in a non homogenous rock. Bob the GeologyPhysics major. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Chris Howard ch...@elfpen.com wrote: On 9/23/2011 3:23 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: Hi again: What is the speed of light in rock? Outside of a cave the answer is C. Inside a cave, it's too dark to read my watch. (With apologies to Grocho Marx) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Comparison of two clocks
The simplest method of all would be to put one on the X axis and one on the Y axis of an o-scope. What levels of precision/accuracy are you looking for? On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 11:36 PM, Ilja Gerhardt i...@cryptix.de wrote: Hi time nuts - I am new to the list and have a trivial question on the comparison of two clocks: In principle it might be very easy to simply monitor the relative phase-shift of two sine outputs of two clocks, e.g. of two 10MHz outputs. For this, it would be ideal to have a very high frequency, such as a phase-locked 1GHz signal. Does anyone have a reference to a circuitry, which implements a phase-locked up-converted signal? But, I guess there are better ways to compare two clocks - I recall a setup where two clocks are referenced to a third, similar frequency signal (which might even have phase-noise and such) on two mixers. Then the two outcomes are compared. Does anyone have a good reference/ paper to a comparison of clock-comparison possibilities? Best Regards from the PST Ilja ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Panel Mount Frequency Counter
There are a number of kits available on ebay and other places. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightspeed (leagalese) vs GPS .. Final report
Nice summary: “In the end, the laws of physics won out.” On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com wrote: http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/final-report-fcc-working-group-lose-lightsquared-l-band-11848 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Video distribution amp data point
A while ago I was asking if anyone had a dist amp for 10mhz and many suggested looking for video distribution amps. (and a few offered up real 50ohm 10mhz dist amps, and I thank you!) To make a long story short, I found a set of 3 VideoTek VDA-16's in a 1U rack mount on ebay for the completely reasonable sum of $9 including shipping. How could I loose? Upon receiving them, I converted one over to 50 ohms and compared it to one of the remaining units. Despite my best efforts, I can't find any difference in the signal upon input or output. There is, of course, a slight delay through the amp, but nothing worth writing home about. Conversion was a change of 8 resistors and retuning the EQ and gain. Works like a charm. I now have more 10mhz outputs from my T'bolt and VE2ZAZ GPSDO than I'll ever be able to use. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Results parts selection + commercial assembly poll?
I'll add that for some reason the discussion never morphed over to an alternate list created just to discuss a counter project without taking up bandwidth here. Not sure that there was enough interest. Other Bob On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The polls ran for less than a day before they drew considerable fire for using too much bandwidth. Since we still had several steps to go (what to design, what to design it with, and who to design what), it was dropped. Doing a group general purpose FPGA based timing board isn't going to happen within the perceived bandwidth limits here. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tijd Dingen Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 5:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Results parts selection + commercial assembly poll? Incidentally, did something ever come of these two polls? I was trying find the conclusion / results, but could not find it on the list. Entirely possible that I am blind for which I apologize in advance. Anyone know what came of it? regards, Fred ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Results parts selection + commercial assembly poll?
I was more wondering why the discussion never moved, not why the project discussion died here. But this is probably enough bandwidth wasted again. :) On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The issue that killed it was at least one member objecting quite strenuously to the bandwidth used. The counter project was the initial spark that started it all, but the objective of the polls was more general. You can indeed build a piece of hardware and then tell it what it is after it's built. The one you have might be a general purpose counter, the one somebody else has might be something totally different. With modern parts, design isn't to hard, the big constraint on it is construction techniques. Most of the cheap / neat stuff you would use is tough to put on a board. There's no use in starting a design effort and ruling out all the likely solutions after it's started. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bownes Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 11:56 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Results parts selection + commercial assembly poll? I'll add that for some reason the discussion never morphed over to an alternate list created just to discuss a counter project without taking up bandwidth here. Not sure that there was enough interest. Other Bob On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi The polls ran for less than a day before they drew considerable fire for using too much bandwidth. Since we still had several steps to go (what to design, what to design it with, and who to design what), it was dropped. Doing a group general purpose FPGA based timing board isn't going to happen within the perceived bandwidth limits here. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tijd Dingen Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 5:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Results parts selection + commercial assembly poll? Incidentally, did something ever come of these two polls? I was trying find the conclusion / results, but could not find it on the list. Entirely possible that I am blind for which I apologize in advance. Anyone know what came of it? regards, Fred ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Distribution amp
I know it has come up in the past so I thought I would check here before hunting one down in the outside world. Anyone have a suitable distribution amplifier that they are looking to part with? My consumer device count has exceeded my source capability. :) Please respond offline, save a few electrons. Thanks, Bob KI2L ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Lady Heather, VNWA, VE2ZAZ GPS Monitor on OS X
Finally got around to doing a bunch of work tonight. Got my lab Parallels machine all set up. Now have Lady Heather, DG8SAQ VNWA code, and the VE2ZAZ MoniTrol all running effectively in OS X. http://www.lensgarage.com/gallery3/index.php/Electronics-and-Ham-Radio/coolstuff Finally...Next comes the Station Automation code. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Darn you people....
Thanks to all for the discussion, but I'm still not sure why I have a (now) consistent 1.495 hz frequency difference between the thunderbolt and the VE2ZAZ FLL. On a similar note, forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple explanation why there are different frequency readings on my 5370B when selecting frequency with a 1s gate vs frequency with 100k samples? Not a few uHz, 1sec gate reading of the VE2ZAZ is 10,000,001.4946 Hz (+/- noise in the last digit) while 100k sample reading is 9,997,322.2 Hz +/- noise in the last four digits. Thanks, Bob the geology major On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Luis Cupido cup...@mail.ua.pt wrote: Hi Bert, Well, without the averaging I think I was correct (I was obviously not considering the averaging). Your implementation with averaging surely smooth this proportionally and yes you end up better than 0.0625 as more you integrate. Please consider then the numbers you may find relevant and the corresponding integration time. (that was not really the point in my email). But since all topologies can average I presume you agree that potential differences between systems as remarked in my email still apply. Namely an offset at a frequency drift that is basic behavior of any FLL you wont have on a PLL. All that may fall below most practical needs(1), I agree... But in the timenuts spirit ought to be pointed out... right ? ;-) Luis Cupido ct1dmk. p.s. (1) folks running several Cesium stds don't be offended I'm not saying your needs are not practical :-) ;-) hi Bert, VE2ZAZ wrote: Luis, You said: Furthermore the frequency counting resolution is 16 seconds, so the ZAZ gpsdo won't lock better than 0.0625Hz. On my GPSDO design, a single 16-second frequency sample does have a resolution of 0.0625Hz. But the FLL firmware does averaging over as many samples as you want before adjusting the OCXO. So I don't agree with your statement that the ZAZ gpsdo won't lock better than 0.0625Hz. In fact, I have never seen my design go worse than 1x10E-9. It usually sit below 5x10E-10. This concurs with the many reports I got from other users. Please elaborate. Thanks, Bert, VE2ZAZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Darn you people....
First it was building a VE2ZAZ GPSDO with an 10881 I happened across. Next came the TICII's followed closely by the 5370B. Then the thunderbolt. Now it's time to break down and get 10Mhz/5Mhz distributed to all the instruments in the lab. (Still looking for a distribution amp) Now the ZAZ GPSDO and the thunderbolt are side by side on the bench. Both said they were locked last night. But they were about 0.10hz apart. Now the GPSDO voltage adjust is all the way to the bottom rail. I have no idea what time it is! Grrr. :) I suspect the 10881. :( ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Darn you people....
I wasn't aware of the phase of the 1pps vs the 10mhz, I was just shocked to find the two were indicating as locked yet drifting apart to the tune of 6hz/minute. I'd be happy if the two were within 0.0625 hz. As I think I said, the ZAZ gpsdo unlocked shortly thereafter. Mine seems to have a hard time keeping the FLL locked and I suspect an issue with the 10881. Was surprised to see the phase difference between the 10Mhz outputs of the ZAZ controller however. Bob On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Luis Cupido cup...@mail.ua.pt wrote: Bob, You must be aware that the VE2ZAZ GPSDO does not lock the 10MHz phase to the phase of the 1pps. It is a frequency counter which uses the frequency error to correct the 10MHz VCXO. So it is a frequency locked loop FLL. By definition on a PLL you will have the phase error being used to compensate the 10MHz VCXO On a FLL a frequency error is required to compensate the 10MHzVCXO While having a permanent very very slow OCXO trend (drift or aging) a PLL(order 2) will exhibit a constant phase error while the frequency is right. With an FLL it will have a constant frequency error. Furthermore the frequency counting resolution is 16 seconds, so the ZAZ gpsdo won't lock better than 0.0625Hz. A PLL scheme, thunderbolt, the old Brook Shera's, the 10KHz James Miller's, or my reflock (I or II) will get you always on the ballpark. This PLL/FLL aspect is a subtle difference that has absolutely no expression whatsoever for radio-ham applications both TX and RX on HF to microwaves etc. application to which it was targeted and serve very well. But you will surely start to see these small aspects when you step into the next level of timenutness !!! Apparently you have both feet there... looking at sub Hz you're infected that's a fact ;-) Luis Cupido. ct1dmk. Bob Bownes wrote: First it was building a VE2ZAZ GPSDO with an 10881 I happened across. Next came the TICII's followed closely by the 5370B. Then the thunderbolt. Now it's time to break down and get 10Mhz/5Mhz distributed to all the instruments in the lab. (Still looking for a distribution amp) Now the ZAZ GPSDO and the thunderbolt are side by side on the bench. Both said they were locked last night. But they were about 0.10hz apart. Now the GPSDO voltage adjust is all the way to the bottom rail. I have no idea what time it is! Grrr. :) I suspect the 10881. :( ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Darn you people....
Yes, of course. On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: On 5/3/2011 9:16 AM, Bob Bownes wrote: First it was building a VE2ZAZ GPSDO with an 10881 I happened across. ... I suspect the 10881. :( I think you are stuttering on the wrong digit. You must mean the venerable 10811. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] ZAZ GPSDO
Check here: http://ve2zaz.net/GPS_Std/GPS_Std.htm Bert is on this list. Bob On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Heathkid heath...@heathkid.com wrote: Did I miss something? I've searched but can't find anything about this one... Could someone please point me to the info on this? 73 Brice KA8MAV - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3613 - Release Date: 05/03/11 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Selecting a used HP sweep/frequency generator
Thought I would consult the assembled wisdom here. I'm looking for an HP frequency generator with sweep capability in the 1-20Mhz range. I can live with 1-11, and would really love 1-55, but 1-20 seems to be the most common. Other instruments I already own cover 10 and up. The goal here is to have something complementary to the 8640B, the 8620, and the 10m-20G sweeper. The candidates at present are the 3324 and 3325. The questions are: 1) Of the 3324 and 3325, are there any of the A/B/C/etc variants to favour or avoid? 2) Are there any other candidates to consider? This is for home, not work. Cost is, of course, a consideration. I already have 10mhz standard, so being able to lock to that is a plus. Thanks, Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Parts Selection
Here are my answers: Done it before? - yes. Done it in the basement / last 2 years? - Yes. In last 24 hours actually. Set up to do it in the basement? - Yes. Can do by hand, hot air rework tools, or reflow oven. Would I buy one? - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes). Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time? - Yes, other projects pending of course. And a +1 on the solder paste mask. 7-15x microscope makes it easy. Bob On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:19 PM, David C. Partridge david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk wrote: Well, if you ship a paste mask with the PCB I've no problem at all, but that's not likely to happen, so it's down to hand work. I've done that before now and while it's not the easiest job, it's quite doable with a microscope or the eyes of an eagle. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: 25 March 2011 17:08 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: [time-nuts] Parts Selection Hi Just a show of hands sort of thing. It comes up each time we talk about projects and never really gets answered. Rather than trying to work it out as a part of a project, let's see if it can be addressed by it's self. How many people are willing to solder up a project with multiple 0.5mm spacing =144 pin package IC's on it? There's a typical package drawing at the end of: http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP83816EX.pdf I'm sure it's a what's in it for me? sort of question. Let's assume it's just neat piece of bench gear rather than a home grown cesium standard for $100. I don't think this part really matters, but it might to some people. Say each chip is well below $100, but above $20 each. There might be only one part like this on some projects, but for the sake of this poll, let's say there are two or three of them. Net is roughly 250 to 500 pins like this to solder, on some number of packages. It's part of a project that will cost you $250 to $500. I'm not talking about opinions on weather it can or can't be done. It certainly can be done and is done every day. What I'm asking is - would you buy a bag with the parts all in it? If you do are you going to put it together in a reasonable amount of time? Reasonable time might mean different things to different people. For the sake of completeness, yes you also need to get it working after you assemble it. Next layer (you knew there had to be more) - have you done it before (anywhere)? / done it in the last 2 years (at home)? / are you set up to do it today (at home)? I'm not trying to get into how would you do it / what would you need / could you farm it out. Those are also neat questions, but not part of this. I'll start off the voting (and yes the answers are out of order): Done it in the before - yes. Done it in the basement / last 2 years - no. Set up to do it in the basement - yes, but not set up well. Would I buy one - done that before. Likely would again. (counts as a yes). Would actually do it in a reasonable amount of time - unlikely. (That counts as a no). Any more votes? Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT: NZ Christchurch member
The last 'modern' seismometers I worked with (as an undergrad in the early 80's) were all three axis laser interferometry based. I'm sure they've gotten a bit better since then. Not only could we pick up a shuttle launch from 1,400 miles away, we could pick up frat parties from across town on the old strain gauge monster at the top of the hill. :) It was one of my first exposures to filtering actually. As your friend said, 'Richter' is not actually used by seismologists anymore, they use the moment magnitude scale for larger quakes, which, while similar, is different. It's more about energy released than about motion. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Bob On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 11:09 AM, jimlux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 2/25/11 7:55 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In messageaanlktikvlp0fmtrm8waffad9vohxc8oeo2zjicpni...@mail.gmail.com, Wil liam H. Fite writes: Me: You're saying that the Richter is a poor predictor of surface disruption? For damage assement you really need a vector-version of richter, vertical does a lot more damage than horizontal on average. Yes.. I doubt anyone still uses the torsion seismometer Richter used, although more modern scales (moment magnitude, etc.) still relate back (e.g. they set the calibration to match for some notional set of events).. That way, people have an idea... A Magnitude 3 earthquake within a few tens of km of me will be noticeable, if it's quiet. A magnitude 4 will be very noticeable, and a 5 will be exciting. A 6 will wake you up in the middle of the night. I'd compare it to something like Mohs hardness, except actually with a quantitative basis. (People who work with material properties like hardness use other scales anyway) It's a roughly quantitative measure of energy release, in the same sense that kilotons are for explosions. It's like that whole cup of gasoline: dynamite comparison.. it's the rate of energy (e.g. power) that creates the qualitative difference between running my camping stove and blasting. We do the same thing in time-nuttery.. we use log scales to talk about performance.. dBc/Hz for phase noise, and really, just the exponent to talk about ADEV. (nobody gets excited about the difference between 1.1E-13 and 1.5E-13... but the difference between 1E-11 and 1E-15 is worth talking about) Maybe we should start promulgating dBallan? And maybe get an SI unit... The Allan, although since the fractional frequency error is dimensionless ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] OT: NZ Christchurch member
What is the conversion factor for Richter to dBm? :) Bob As a guy with degrees in geology and EE. I really should know this...:) On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 24/02/11 10:38, Steve Rooke wrote: I heard he was still shaking :) Did he get any amazing waveforms out of mother earths shaker-table? PS. Happy to hear you are alright and still has a sense of humor intact. Cheers, Magnus Cheers, Steve On 24/02/2011, Rajvu2...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone hear from Time-Nut Steve Rooke from Christchurch ? Cheers -- Raj, VU2ZAP Bangalore, India. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 2nd 5370B
Speaking of which, I have some instruments I'd like to usb enable. The instruments have analog output. Ideally I'd like to use a USB microcontroller and simply read back the analog value. Once I have the analog value I can handle it from there. If someone has some experience doing such, please contact me offline. Thanks! Bob On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:37 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Don I have indeed looked at the usb instruments. Pretty amazing for the costs actually. But I have been fortunate to get out of the epay drug before $ went crazy. (A better observation was I did not like the $ for the junk and risk) Also been lucky to stumble into reasonably priced broken gear. So my heavy duty stuff is great. Still with a handful of these USB sensors and instruments my bench would be 1000 LBS lighter and the power consumption 20 watts. I could easily acquire and store information by the tons with modern laptop technology. But I like the accuracy of the HP stuff. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Hi Paul: I have two 5370A's that I picked off epay years ago when prices were real. What's happened, I don't know, but I can't afford to buy stuff that old for inflated prices, and the shipping, yikes! I'm converting to all USB instruments for future use, including SDR's, that's why I tried to get the 5370 replacement instrument started here (no time, no skill with FPGA's) to see if others were interested. Have a look at www.telemakus.com and signalhound.com for some examples. I realize these are not really laboratory caliber instruments, but I'm not in that business... Best, Don paul swed Don I have seen the same amazing thing eproms with a pin folded over that touched the auget socket and worked for years or maybe not and thats why I ended up with the 5370. But bottom line is I grab 5370s when I see them if they are the right price. Have 4, all working now, most with the xtal oscillator. I won't say what the prices were but fractions of whats been mentioned here. (None worked when I picked them up) They were dirty and generally reasonable issues to solve. Indeed the internal external switch was exactly one of the issues. Then soap and water with elbow grease and they look like new and work well. Regards Paul. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Paul is right! NO WD40, wrong stuff!! The chips can be reseated by GENTLY twisting the baords and pushing the chips back into the sockets (I know, but it works. note gently!), or just firmly pushing on the chips first on one end and then the other. I've also observes chips with one pin buckled during manufacture insertion that managed to work and then lose connection, so look carefully at pin engagement. Don paul swed This is ideed something to do with internal external reference. The switch is in the wrong position or someone took the oven oscilator out and sold it on epay for $150. Simply switch to external and supply a 10 mc sig 1 volt. If it works find out whats missing. I would not use wd40 nor pull chips out of sockets. That can introduce additional problems. Its a gamble. On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:27 AM, William H. Fite omni...@gmail.com wrote: The language is Elvish and says, Can you believe that sucker bought this piece of crap? OK, OK, only teasing. [?] On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 3:49 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message aanlktimatp72p6xqnzko7xwlrribwoktf0r55qzhc...@mail.gmail.com , Pete Lancashire writes: This one makes fan noises the yellow trigger/level LEDs light up but the LEDs controlled buy the CPU don't. One segment of one digit flashes when the power switch is hit. Both were advertised as Power Up. But since both are complete and look fairly clean, not really complaining. Check the ext/int clock switch. Anyone ID this language ? Looks like thai or vietnamese. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 79, Issue 31
Ian, I've dropped the temp and the noise level in my 'lab' by replacing many of the old 110V fans whose bearings are getting on with more modern 'silent' 12V fans that use less power, move more air, and are far quieter than the 110 fans ever were. You can find them from a number of sources online, and while rated at 12Vdc, they run pretty well on anything from 5-15. Bob On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 4:14 PM, gonzo . cadbl...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I've dropped the heatsink temp to 69C simply by swapping the side panels (a small step in the right direction). The internal fan makes a fair howl, so a small fan or two will hardly be noticed! The original fan is moving plenty or air, but it's sounding like the bearing is past it's prime. I'll replace it as soon as I can find something suitable (110V fans are a bit thin on the ground around here). Cheers, Ian ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 79, Issue 31
Not to mention improvements in motor design. The brushless motors have gotten better and the change to lighter plastics has put much less burden on the bearings, which while they might not last as long, sure are a lot quieter. One of the parameters you can use now to select fans is the noise factor for a given cfm. Simply replacing the old, loud fans in 3 or 4 pieces of test gear has really quieted things down for me. As you say, the big changes are in getting more air to move with less turbulence at a lower rpm by changes in blade design. Probably a few former submarine prop designers making money in their retirement. ;) On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: rich...@karlquist.com said: I don't see why changing the operating voltage of the fan would make bearings last longer, move more air, or make less noise, unless it allows the fan to run at a different RPM. Even then, more air and less noise would seem to be mutually exclusive. Somewhere in the past 10-20 years, people started paying much more attention to how much noise fans make. For a given amount of air, most modern fans are a lot quieter than old ones. I think one big step is to keep the support bars away from the fan blades and/or make them smaller. There are probably some important details about the fan blade shape that I don't understand. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared and a little math
In my view, this technical tone-deafness at the FCC persists because there has been no engineering expertise or background at the Commission(er) level since ... well, I'm not sure there ever was, but perhaps in the 1930s-'40s. The FCC staff is supposed to provide engineering support, but Commissioners often do not listen to the staff as carefully as they should and sometimes the staff gets it wrong. IMO, the 5-person Commission should always include at least one engineer and one economist so that at least in theory it has enough expertise to do a reality check on proposals at the Commission level. The NTIA and technical folks I've worked with @ the FCC over the years have been fantastic. It's the translation of their recommendations to the Commissioner level where it gets tricky. Politics enters the equation and makes things icky to us engineering types. The fact that the commissioners have 5 year terms (unless, of course, they quit) and often have odd overlap with any political entities in charge of the white house or congress make it even ickier. Add in the position of chairman of the commission and the effect of that over the other Commissioners _and_ their fundamentally independent nature from each other, and the ickiness factor starts to go non linear. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] counter
Yes, it's still active. I've created a mailing list and google group just for the counter project. opencoun...@googlegroups.com to keep the counter project from going out to all 800 time-nuts. The discussion seems to want to take place here however. :) I've been trying _not_ to be the lead of the opencounter group, but rather to enable it. So far it doesn't seem to be working. I guess I'll spin up another round of benevolent dictator effort and say 'Yo! Over here!' (I got a 5370B shortly after starting the opencounter group, so my immediate need got taken care of, but that doesn't mean we still shouldn't build an open counter. ) An FPGA based solution sounds quite flexible and attractive. I have a Diligent NEXSYS sitting on the bench next to the 5370b as a matter of fact. I'm sure we could get all the speed needed out of an FPGA, but the analog i/o might get to be the tough part. I don't know enough however. I think your email got eaten by the spam filter. I'll respond to that shortly. Bob On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Tijd Dingen tijddin...@yahoo.com wrote: On that note, does anyone know if this counter project is still active? Some time ago I asked about this, but never got a reply. Maybe the e-mail got eaten by a spam filter, or maybe I just didn't ask nice enough, I don't know. ;- If there is still an active project, I'd be interested. If not, I'll just keep doing my own fpga based counter thing. regards, Fred - Original Message From: Don Latham d...@montana.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 1:51:45 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] counter They look interesting, Tristan. Gee, nobody's in charge of this, I'm not sure it's even a project at this point, and AFIK there's no out of turn :-). I too like the Arduino, in fact I've settled on them or the Propeller for projects if I can, so the boards you propose may work just fine. Don Tristan Steele Hi Don, At the risk of speaking out of turn, and not knowing too much about this project (I'm new here!) have you considered something like these boards: http://www.gadgetfactory.net/index.php?main_page=indexcPath=1zenid=d282dce6c5b0acfe45c1377315b2734c c They use the Spartan 3E chips, like alot of low cost FPGA boards and also they expose the JTAG headers. I'm unsure of the license of the current programming software but it is likely to be pretty hack-friendly as the board designs themselves are released under creative commons. They are designed for use with the Arduino project and a soft core, though this is certainly not required. I've been looking at them as a nice, low cost FPGA board that is pretty configurable. I have no affiliation with the site, other then being a prospective customer. I also haven't bought any of them yet, so I haven't actually tested them Just my $0.02, Tristan On 30 January 2011 17:28, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: With regard to the home-brew counter project, if it still exists: From friend Marcus Leech on another list: Don't know whether you've seen these: http://www.knjn.com/ShopBoards_USB2.html $79.95 for the low-end board, which includes and FX2, and a small Cyclone FPGA. Pretty good value. Thanks, Marcus. this looks like the very thing, just need the front end Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Temperature stability for Thunderbolt: results
I solved the same problem today by putting the antenna in the skylight dome in my 'office'. Between the heat loss and the dome shape the snow pretty much stays off of the skylight. This is after I just had the antenna laying on the roof, where it got buried under 10+inches of snow in the last week or two. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz charles_steinm...@lavabit.com wrote: Magnus wrote: Maybe a LH controlled hair-dryer to burn off some snow? I have actually given some thought to adding a de-icer (heater) to my outdoor antenna, as is done with many broadcast, radar, etc. antennas. Of course, it wouldn't need to be controlled by LH -- a manual switch indoors and a thermostat near or attached to the antenna would be sufficient. My present solution is to fall back on an indoor antenna. Placed in the attic, looking through just the roof (not the indoor ceiling, as well), the results are nearly as good as the outdoor antenna (I lose about 2 dB net through the roof plus 10 of snow, compared to the outdoor antenna -- the actual field loss is presumably somewhat greater, but is partially offset by the additional 75 feet (~25 m) of coax on the outdoor antenna). Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Silicon Labs series of oscillators...
depending on the complexity, I use one of 3 approaches: 1) Premade adapter (aka surfboard) which adapts the package to something with pins on 0.1 spacing. These can be bought various places or made with traditional methods at home. 2) Quick home made version of above. Usually double sided pcb cut up with an x-acto knife, pins coming out the top, the other side as ground plane. 3) straight to pcb design. With it being very inexpensive to get pcb's made, you can often skip the old hand made prototype stage and either get your whole design made or get it built in stages, then integrate it all in a final pcb. Bob, KI2L On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 9:13 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote: Surfboards? From Alltronics? Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Michael Baker Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:04 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Silicon Labs series of oscillators... Hello, TimeNutters- Silicon Labs [1]http://www.silabs.com/products/clocksoscillators/pages/default.aspx offers a large assortment of various types of oscillator chips: XO, VCXO, programmable XO, clock generators, clock distribution chips, Jitter Attenuators, Clock cleaners, etc, etc I have a need for a 110 MHz VCXO in a 1.8GHz to 7.5GHz tracking generator I am building for my Tek 494 spectrum analyzer. I bought a pair of Silicon Labs 110 MHz VCXO chips for less than $25 for the pair from Cramer Distributors. The Si595 VCXO chips are in an industry standard 5mm X 7mm surface-mount package. Yikes! I knew I was going to have trouble (for lack of thru-hole leads) breadboarding this chip. However, I managed (using a magnifier-loupe and a v-e-r-r-r-y tiny soldering iron tip) to get some legs soldered onto the surface-mount pads. Great... I inserted the critter into the socket-strips of my breadboard, hooked up the required 3.3vdc Vdd and ground and checked to see what it's output looks like. No joy. Drat. It has a set of complementary output pins. One sits at around 50% of Vdd and the other is low. When I pull the Output Enable pin high, the 50% output pin goes low. The other (complementary) pin just stays low. If I pull the Output Enable pin low, neither output pin changes. Drat. I must have destroyed the little critter during the leg soldering process. These chips are supposed to be pretty static from normal handling and-- here in humid Flori-DUH, handling problems from static build-up is almost a non-existent problem. Even so, I do all my breadboarding on a 3-foot X 2-foot static-drain pad. So I used the utmost care in soldering legs to the second chip. The surface-mount pads are gold-plated and it is super easy to just momentarily tap them with the soldering iron tip and leave a very teensy blob of solder on each one. Using pre-tinned gold-plated legs stripped from some surplus 1/8 Watt resistors, I fastened the legs on the chip with only the briefest time of soldering-iron tip contact; less than one second, I am guessing. Same result with the second chip; the outputs appear to be dead. I guess this sad saga boils down to my question for the Time-Nutters List: How do you deal with breadboarding when it comes to parts that are ONLY available in surface-mount configuration (and are just at the size limit for hand soldering? Thanks for any input on this! Mike Baker Micanopy, FL References 1. http://www.silabs.com/products/clocksoscillators/pages/default.aspx ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Yes, Virginia, $200 5370B's do happen
After the discussion a few weeks ago, I started looking for a 5370. In answer to the question about affordable 5370's, yes, there are sub $200 5370's out there. I just acquired one from eBay. Listed as 'won't power up'. Close look at the pictures showed intact Agilent calibration stickers on the top/bottom covers, HPIB cable cut off, and possibly, just possibly, the faint shadow of the 110/220 card set to 220. Figured it was worth a shot, so I esniped it for $154 + $45 in shipping. It arrived today. Took it out of the box full of @#...@!@#$%! foam peanuts (anti-static at least), brought it up to the lab, turned it over, and sure enough, the voltage selector was set to 220. Pop it in the right way, hook it up to the autotransformer, power it up, and away it goes. It's still warming up, but it's reading 9.999,999.88443 hz (and climbing slowly) while listening to my (also warming up) T'bolt. Only a full checkout will tell, but so far, I'm pretty optimistic. Bob KI2L ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Form factor
Really I just used I2C in my write-up as a place holder. I you say nothing no one ever says a blank paper is wrong and suggests something better. Using a serial interface is nice, but I2C is not the one of my choosings. I'd go for plain serial interface, RS-232 like, but not necesserilly with RS-232 levels. Possibly using RS-485. A party line has several issues with it, but reduces the cost. It's more suitable for control than pumping data out of the device. Additionally, the joy of rs232 (level shifted or not) is that anyone with a serial port, (direct or USB dongle) can debug it and drive the module. Not many have the gear to debug i2c, CAN or SPI. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Form Factor and such, Big Picture
I hadn't considered the possibility of using an embedded processor board. That is an interesting possibility. The ability to run linux on it, as well as have DSP and FPGA in hand would certainly up the ante a bit. A 400 mhz DSP and 25Mhz CPU would be more than enough processing power. Just thinking out loud here, I would imagine a main board that such a processor plugs into with locations to plug in input modules, A/D converters, a serial level converter (if there isn't one on the board), and a front 'control' panel. The main board holds not much more than connectors and traces to get signals from those modules to the processor board and/or the A/D boards. Hmmm. Bob On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.eswrote: El 23/12/2010 05:24, Bob Bownes escribió: ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a cost to complexity. If you are not planifying to use an embedded operating system like uClinux or embedded linux, no need for external RAM or ROM. There are lot of ARMs from several manufacturers with 256kB flash and 64kB RAM or more for $20, with a nice set of peripherals (USB, UARTs, CAN, even Ethernet without the need of an external phy). Software tools can range from free (GCC + eclipse) to quite expensive (IAR). If you plan to use an embedded operating system, then more RAM, more ROM... We've an embedded processor board that includes a Blackfin, 16 or 32MB flash, 32 or 64MB RAM and a 250,000 gate FPGA, and belive me, it is not so expensive (and if it would be interesting for a project like this, we could try to make a series with special time-nuts price) http://www.hvsistemas.com/en/prod/H8606.html Regards, Javier -- Javier HerreroEMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com Chief Technology Officer HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic
The other is what one can buy on the market that is better than the HP 5328? The first step up IMHO is the HP 5335. I have two. AFAIK it is the first of the series that will do TIC. The TIC specification is 100 pico-seconds. For reference the HP 5370A/B TIC spec is 10 pico-seconds. The 5328 will do TIC. It may not be too good at it or have the resolution of the 5335/5370's, but it will do it, both a-b and c,a-b. Compared to the 5328 it has more real estate on the interior and will take the 110811 type of high stability oscillator. The one I have that just has the standard oscillator appears to have the 10811 type crystal in the open but seems very stable. The 5328 will also take a 10881. Plugs right into the motherboard. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic
The 5328 will also take a 10881. Plugs right into the motherboard. You go via a separate board to have a 10811 oscillator. It is not uncommon for 10811s to be delivered with this board since some figure they get more by selling the 5328 separate from the 10811. Ah well. I use that board to drive my lab-bench 10811... need to box it up. Interesting. Mine have the 10811 plugged straight into the main board. I got the 'daughtercard' with a bare 10811 I bought a while back. Maybe I should go dig it out. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Form factor
Perhaps I'm old school, but this sounds overly complex to me. Probably the most important thing I learned in engineering school (besides where the beer and amiable consorts were) was KISS. The more complex, the less likely the project is to complete. So I pose the question: Do we need a bus like this at all to meet the basic goals? The suggestion of a main board with input/output modules that plug into the main board sounds much simpler. If the IO needs to be modified, you build a separate module. If you think there are going to be parameters that will be switched on/off/adjusted/whatever on that module, put a few io pins from the main controller on the connector to the module. May never get used, but if someone wants to rework the i/o module, you're all set. Many of the popular controllers can put an I2C bus or a serial port on any pin pair. Libraries for both are common for the controllers I'm familiar with. Example: How much complexity do you need in an input module? What are the features you might like to manipulate there? Would it really take more than, say, 8 pins? The discussion about opto isolation and/or differential pairs and the like seems like overkill as well. My vision is that this thing fits into a single box. If you need that much isolation or are worried about that much noise on a bus inside a box, either you are pushing some serious speed or operating in an environment that's way more hostile than I would like to be sitting in and observing the front panel. With that said, I also concur that any module should be easy to test in a standalone mode. Not necessarily useful to many folks outside of the opencontroller project, but easy to test. That's why, for example, I suggested that the core counter module be usable with nothing more than TTL inputs/outputs. An input module then might be nothing more than appropriate signal conditioning. Final design, will, of course, dictate pcb sizes. Bob On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: I used a shared opto-isolated async bus. You need two optocouplers per microcontroller, and one place you power the shared bus, and you're all set. I have yet to see an microcontroller without an async port. Opto-isolater? Why not just use fiber cable between cards. I know it sounds exotic but also seems to have half the parts count. those s/pdif jacks are so cheap and I bet you can use them as pretty much drop in replacements for opto-isolators. Would s/pdif jacks work as a physical layer? Really I just used I2C in my write-up as a place holder. I you say nothing no one ever says a blank paper is wrong and suggests something better. s optical isolation required when all the modules are sharing a common power supply? Does this means all the coax connectors need to be isolated. I guess some one better step up and propose a grounding scheme. That's not going to be me. = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Form Factor and such, Big Picture
Comments inline. Hopefully I've edited this enough to prevent it being overwhelming. On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: I think I'm missing the big picture. What sort of things are people interested in building? Will they all be a reasonable fit with a single Form Factor, Bus, and whatever? The overarching goal is to build a time interval counter similar to an HP 5370 with performance better than a PICTIC II. I've been thinking of something like a mother board with FPGA that would fit in something like the Hammond boxes. The idea is that the FPGA is the part that's hard for me because I can't handle soldering BGAs. All the front-end analog stuff would go on a daughter card. I've been thinking similarly. FPGA is one possibility for part of the core function. FPGA's are quite available in in BGA footprints, though most are fine pitch QFP packages. Everything ends up in one box no larger than a 5370, preferably much smaller. But module definitions and overall design will dictate the final box form factor. Form follows function and all that. The hardware interface between the mother/daughter cards is just a row (or 3) of pins/sockets for 0.1 inch connectors. (or anything similar) Software interface is TBD. It might make sense to publish a standard interface for some application so the same firmware on the motherboard would work for various front ends. Again, my thinking. Main board has 2, possibly 4 input daughtercard connectors. Internal interconnect pinout is well defined, though, as I said earlier, some pins may be 'designated for future use' and simply run to spare pins on a microcontroller or FPGA. It might make sense to put an ARM next to the FPGA. You can get a lot of CPU for $10-20. ARM or other general purpose CPU is interesting, but at what cost for complexity and/or software development? It would require RAM, IO support, and boot rom at the very least. Not insurmountable, but at a cost to complexity. I have a stack of Domino microcontrollers that I use in similar project. Great, but expensive. All rolled up with ram. rom, serial port, and a BASIC interpreter in a module a bit bigger than a 40 pin DIP. But not really suitable (or commonly available anymore) methinks. I'm not sure what the back end sould look like. I'd be happy with USB or Serial. They are dumb/simple and don't require massive protocol stacks. I could live with Ethernet, but it really raises the bar for getting off the ground. (I'm not interested in running a web server on my toys. All I want is simple command/response. I'll put the web server on a PC that has access to all the archived data.) My suggestion of TTL serial was based on the thinking that you can terminate that in four different COTS chipsets that will convert it to rs232, USB (which appears to the host as a COM port), ethernet (simple serial-telnet on a chip solution), or ethernet (single module with serial inputs and a web server). The builder can select any of the above, buy the appropriate pcb, populate it, and plug it in. It might make sense to have a back-end daughter card. That was my expectation. It could be as simple as a level shifter or a standalone controller/web server/whatever else you want to cram in there. Similar for a front end control panel. V1 might be a few LEDs and switches. V2 might be an LCD panel, a microconroller and a bunch of switches. Connector to a front panel i/o module probably ought to have plenty of pins. :) We could also put in a big connector on the main board to plug in a later, bigger, better, more powerful controller. That leads to a discussion of separating the core counter from the controller. With that sort of setup, I think I could build a 5370 class box that I could use for long term data collection. Does that seem reasonable? See aforementioned goal. Sounds good to me. I don't need the full flexibility of the 5370 front end. I'm willing to use jumpers or a soldering iron for things like AC vs DC coupling and 50 ohm termination. Hence the joy of several possible input modules. Personally, I'd like a module with the flexibility to change the termination and attenuation via a front panel switch, much like a Tek DC5010 counter. Those features might or might not be something that the main controller might want to be aware of or have control over. In a simplest version, they are all local to the input board. If I want to do the SW dev, the control and status could be passed back to the controller via a few pins on the daughter board connector. So V1 of the input board is not much more than maybe a buffer and some clamping diodes. V8 might have a microcontroller in it that autosenses the input signal and spits out a full description to the main board, where it is displayed on the VGA monitor connected to the FPGA. (ok, I'll put down the crack pipe now...) On the other hand, how much board space would a spectrum analyzer take?
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
* *Interesting. There are some Hittite D type flip flips that spec out at 13Ghz and 18-22ps rise/fall times with 'deterministic jitter' of 2ps, and a T type that tops out @26Ghz. Not cheap I'm sure, but we shall see. I've posted a preliminary specification on the Open Counter google group. The goals are ambitious and I have no clue how to meet some of them, but I'm sure someone will have an opinion. :) http://groups.google.com/group/opencounter?lnk=srghl=enie=UTF-8 Take a look, shoot some holes in it, figure out how to get it accomplished, accept a module to design. I'm volunteering to be the project manager and design contributor. I'll make some totalitarian, fascist decisions too. :) Bob ** On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Richard H McCorkle mccor...@ptialaska.net wrote: Ho Ho Ho, Tis the season once again for giving and I wrote this up to give some suggestions to the discussion. The PICTIC II was a spin-off of a GPSDO front end designed specifically for low cost, low parts count, amateur construction, and 1ns resolution to equal the performance of a modern GPS receiver. It was intended for long term monitoring of a frequency standard against GPS to free up your commercial counter for other uses. I made the design and code public to educate others in the basics of interpolating counter design with the hope that they would become inspired to improve the design further. There is a case of diminishing returns trying to achieve higher TIC resolution using faster clock rates. A 1 GHz timebase only provides 1ns resolution, so some form of interpolation is generally required for TIC resolutions better than 1ns. The current discussion on counter requirements is very educational as I went through a similar process before adapting the GPSDO front end to a stand-alone project. Most users have a 10 MHz source available so this was selected as the default timebase. When it was developed the AC CMOS family was chosen as the successor to the HC family with the idea that later devices would become available with similar pin-outs, but within a year of its design the AC175 became unobtanium in a DIP package illustrating the obsolescence problem. The PIC solution may not be well liked by many members here but versions of the PIC should be available for many years to come and the assembly code can easily be ported to later devices as the older ones become obsolete. With an external prescaler reducing the clock into the PIC to a rate below 16.6 MHz all the other counter functions can be implemented within the PIC for as many digits as required. The PIC includes a serial UART that can be converted to RS422 or RS-232 to feed a USB dongle or LAN adapter, and the PIC TX/RX lines can be optically coupled to feed the interface device as required. The PICTIC II was modeled after the SR620 counter but simplified to meet the less stringent 1ns requirement for GPS monitoring and to reduce the size and cost. The principles of the PICTIC design can be applied to a higher resolution counter with the major issues being switching speed, noise, and the interpolator used. Testing has shown the original PICTIC, the PICTIC II, and the PICTIC+ (12-bit ADC) versions all provide roughly the same 650ps resolution regardless of the timebase rate used. This implies the actual resolution is primarily limited by the switching speed of the AC series CMOS logic used in the front-end and the noise produced. The AC74 D-F/F has propagation delays in the 3.5 to 10ns range so achieving 1ns TIC resolution using AC series logic is pushing its limit. If 100ps TIC resolution is desired the front-end logic and prescaler can be changed to ECL, a faster timebase can be used, and an ACAM TDC-GPX can be used for the interpolator. Going to ECL requires split supplies increasing the cost, but if we are talking a target cost of $750 instead of the original $50 target, going to ECL logic with ECL-TTL converters feeding the PIC, using dual supplies, and adding a $30 interpolator are no longer issues with the higher target cost. Once the decision is made to use ECL logic for the prescaler and front-end you have lower signal levels with balanced clock and data lines to reduce the noise, and the MC100EL51 D-F/F propagation delays are in the 385 – 565ps range for 10x or better resolution. The Wavecrest DTS-2075 uses a similar front end implemented in ECL and the patent document http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6226231.pdf provides sufficient detail to duplicate their interpolators and front-end for the two channels required. This can get you in the area of 10ps resolution with the potential of slightly better if their 14-bit ADC is replaced with a 16-bit ADC. Currently this seems to be the state of the art in commercial designs so further improvement beyond this will be a challenge only a dedicated Time-Nut can appreciate. The Wavecrest front end and interpolator could be utilized with the PICTIC
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list. Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a) purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make cheap, and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any functional design decisions. #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus, accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec. If there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we all agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this once or twice? :) Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is to agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss, propose, draft, get concensus, close and move on. Then we get folks working on the individual modules. On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net wrote: .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling to yield on anyone else's ideas. Hopefully, our project won't degrade into another such fiasco. THAT is the number one problem to solve. Technical issues are easy I think the solution is to (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB so that each part is easy and has some wider user outside the project. (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some kind of chassis. I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would be about right size. But the parts are expensive. (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to contribute. And everyone can. Projects always are lacking technical writers and quality control people Of those a process and mechanical standard, I think are the hardest. We always give managers a hard time but that is what is needed. The person who will make this happen will be a manager and organizer maybe not a designer. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
Lol. Ok. You're added to the group. I've started a topic on form factor. Bob On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Hi benevolent dictator. Please not the @#$%^ Eurocard. As you say, the connectors and backplane cost more than the stuff on the cards (except maybe the stuff from Hittite :-). Rather a stack of cards with .1 in. spacing .025 pins? That way, we can put the stack in any housing we want. If a suitable processor card (e.g. propeller or Arduino) is selected, daughterboards can be stacked on that. Just thinkin'. I've joined the google group. Best, Don Bob Bownes Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list. Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a) purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make cheap, and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any functional design decisions. #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus, accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec. If there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we all agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this once or twice? :) Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is to agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss, propose, draft, get concensus, close and move on. Then we get folks working on the individual modules. On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net wrote: .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling to yield on anyone else's ideas. Hopefully, our project won't degrade into another such fiasco. THAT is the number one problem to solve. Technical issues are easy I think the solution is to (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB so that each part is easy and has some wider user outside the project. (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some kind of chassis. I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would be about right size. But the parts are expensive. (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to contribute. And everyone can. Projects always are lacking technical writers and quality control people Of those a process and mechanical standard, I think are the hardest. We always give managers a hard time but that is what is needed. The person who will make this happen will be a manager and organizer maybe not a designer. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
Comments inline. On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: I looked. I think we should keep the design goals modest for a first revision. Shoot for a spec that can be hand built on perf board. So I'd relax those numbers by a factor of 1000. The top frequency is in Mhz, not Ghz and the time resolution closer to ns than ps. It's good to have a cheap option. Many people are happy with an FCC1 Try for the next step after that with a goal of actually matching the state of the art in steps. My initial thinking was to be better than a pictic ii, preferably on par with, or better than a 5370. I'm not sure you can do that on perfboard. I suppose if the speed is kept low it can be done that way. Others have pointed out (offline) 20Ghz isn't reasonabe with a decent noise figure or prescalers. What do people think a reasonable number is? What about resolution? I'd like to get better than a ns, preferably a lot better. Why no through holes? I don't see the point of banishing them. I to agree with the rest. SMT that is hand solderable by a skilled tech but now reflow ovens or solder past masks should be required . You might place a limit on component size too like 0.5mm lead pitch or whatever is reasonable. I've been prototyping a lot of late and restricting the number of through holes makes the job much much easier and quicker. No other real reason. I didn't place a limit on the lead pitch because a) I felt that limited the component selection and b) pretty much even the finest pitch can be hand assembled with care, solder wick, and 20x magnification. But if folks are very against it, it can go in the 'desired qualities' list. My only fear is the limit it might put on critical parts like a FPGA. Mechanical assy is going to be a killer. Let's start with overall form factor. Rack mount or bench format? If rack mount, 1U or more? Commercial project enclosure (ala the VNA Hammond box) or do we take an existing form factor like a disk drive as you suggest. Heck, if we go with a disk drive size, it could be built/slid into anyone's lab PC case and use ribbon cable as a back plane... 1/2 :) I like 1U because it matches up with the rest of the test equipment on the bench and it gives it a professional feel. And there are many many surplus 1U cases out there with decent +/-12vdc,+5vdc (even some with 3.3vdc) power supplies. Bob On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list. Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a) purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make cheap, and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any functional design decisions. #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus, accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec. If there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we all agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this once or twice? :) Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is to agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss, propose, draft, get concensus, close and move on. Then we get folks working on the individual modules. On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net wrote: .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling to yield on anyone else's ideas. Hopefully, our project won't degrade into another such fiasco. THAT is the number one problem to solve. Technical issues are easy I think the solution is to (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB so that each part is easy and has some wider user outside the project. (2) Find a mechanical standard
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
From the sounds of it, I'd guess there are enough folks here that could put a QFP or two on boards for those less sure of their talents. That makes doing a run of a dozen or two of anything non bga wouldn't be an issue. As Xtof pointed out, a controller (or a good eye) and an old toaster oven can go a very long way. There are also 'breakout boards' available for most QFPs that might make such a project easier. The discussion has had me dig out the t'bolt, a few counters and a few m of coax to do the old 'speed of light' demo. Now I want a newer, better counter! :) I have a stash of ~25 ATMega128's and the programmer I'd be willing to toss at the project for example. Time, on the other hand could be slightly harder to come by. Bob On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's not one I would want to emulate. If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might indeed make sense. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source design by a group of HAMs http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of surface mount parts. TAPR is able to have these made and sell them for $180. While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd not go this route. Better I think to design a modular system where the modules have easy and well defined interfaces and where each can have whatever quality specs are desired. There is a danger with these group project that you run into a requirements race to the top and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part. I think the HPSDR project did this On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all. All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough. In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right tools... Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't we generate a design for a PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter? We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard, all else should be straightforward. I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot Basic is a nice PC software maybe. Don J. L. Trantham, M. D. I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but as far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP 5370B. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Dave M Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM To: TimeNuts Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer. I have a pretty decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments. However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth. I have a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator. I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune. I also have a good distribution amp and couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency comparators. What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost ($400) counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the down in the grass noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of the group discuss. I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since manuals are much easier to find than most other brands. I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows me to write software to control some of my instruments. I
Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
Very good points. For the core counter, are you talking about an interval counter or a more generic two input, tell the CPU what to do with the inputs kind of model? :) USB certainly would be the interface of choice, but serial also has it's place. The joy is there is less software to write. That engenders a whole discussion about a standalone counter vs a PC based counter. Fine example is the two VNA projects out there. One of them requires a whole bunch of ugly USB drivers to work and it isn't even recognized by a Mac for example. You can still do spiffy GUI front ends and USB-serial adaptors are going to be around for a while. Or you use an Arduino core and don't worry about drivers. Gonna be a religious war I suspect. Standalone model circumvents all that. :) I suspect a number of input modules could be described. Prescalers, amplifiers, attenuators, terminations, filters, all come to mind looking at the input options on gear on the bench. I have a nice variant on the VE2ZAZ design already done that would get it up to ~18Ghz. Again, several core synthesizers could be defined based on requirments. GPSDO, 10Mhz in, txco all come to mind. Define a power supply that doesn't exceed 12v and you are in pretty good shape. COT technology would be a good choice. The point about the TAPR bus and enclosure is also a great one. PC cases are nice, but bulky. Last thing I want is another one of those kicking around. 1U rackmount would be nice, but makes the module design difficult. 2U much easier, but harder to come by cheap cases. I think an overall target design would be the place to start. PICTIC II is also a good place to start. Shoot for a 10x improvement? :) I'm not all that fond of Wiki's but if there are people serious about the project, I can put one up. Main mailing list certainly isn't the place to design it. All that said, I don't know enough to design it alone, but I have the ability to fabricate prototypes and can build to someone else's specs. And I'm serious about wanting a better counter than my 5328. :) Bob On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: You can't do anything, not even guess at a price until you have a list of requirements written down. And they need to be detailed. I would break the project down into a set of sub-projects possably like this 1) The core counter, just counts, no pre scaler, no display or reference oscillator. connects to computer with USB. 2) A display and control panel to the instrument can be independent of a computer. 3) The front end pre-scaler or other kind of signal conditioning unit. 4) A core frequency synthesizer, no display and so on like the core counters 5) A A/C mains based power supply 6) A battery based power supply to be used in place of or in addition to #4 If these parts all worked together or at least used the same size PCB people could get a chassis and start out simple and cheap and build up a larger system over time. I was going to build a radio this way once, I may still do it. My idea was to make each card or modular the same size as a hard disk drive. Then I could use an old sever chassis intended for hold SCSI disk drives to hold the cards and each card would have knobs and controls on one end and electrilcal connectors of the other. Id use a standard scsi 50-pin ribon cable as a backplane for serial control (i2c) and power. Today I'd use a SATA backplane as the form factor. They can be pushed into a rack from the front Something like this : http://www.sansdigital.com/images/stories/products/HDDRACK5/hddrack5_1.jpg The mistakes made by the HPSDR people were that each card is far to complex. So much so that few people could understand and contribute to the design and the cards are mostly un-build-able at the hobby level. and also they did not select an off the self backplane and enclosure. For most people sheet metal bending is not easy, So you'd want to specify a common and cheap off the shelf chassis type. So,... the first step is to list out the cards and write specs for each and design it so it is an expandable system A Wiki works best for this, not an email list. On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Alan Hochhalter alanh...@comcast.net wrote: One way to find out if people are interested enough to pledge some money up front is something like this project http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer Alan On 12/16/2010 12:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's not one I would want to emulate. If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might indeed make sense. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re:
Re: [time-nuts] If there a FAQ
You can very often pick up a 5328 with the 10811 in it for $20 plus shipping. Last one I bought was $15 including shipping... Bob On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 3:29 PM, J. L. Trantham, M. D. jlt...@att.net wrote: My favorite has been the 5334B with Option 010. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Chris Albertson Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 1:29 PM To: shali...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] If there a FAQ On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 5:33 AM, shali...@gmail.com wrote: Just find any HP 10811, by itself or inside an instrument (you can often buy a whole instrument with an internal 10811 cheaper than you can buy the 10811 by itself). What HP instruments would have the HP 10811 inside? -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 426/3287 - Release Date: 11/29/10 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please
Like hammers, every tool has it's place and if you only have one hammer, everything looks like a 10penny nail. As a guy with an unfortunate affliction to test equipment, (as do many of you, I'm sure) I've got a 7000 series analog scope which I love, a tek 2236 portable, a DS602 digital, and a parallel port PC based digital. Each has it's place. Nothing beats the Tek 7000 series for flexibility and bang for your buck. From simple, low speed time bases and vertical amplifiers, through the various digital plugins such as counters and logic analyzers, the spectrum analyzer plugins, through the very high speed time bases and plug ins. The joy is that it allows you to start with something that works for your early needs and a wide range of upgrade paths. Plugins are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Between a large box of plug ins and the mainframe itself, I think I might have $500 invested. The spectrum analyzer was another $400. The DSA602 was an impulse purchase that I think I probably could have lived without. The 1Ghz bandwidth plugins are not easily found, but the FFT function is very handy. My biggest complaint is that it takes too long to boot up! Again, an inexpensive option for a scope, good into the ghz range for a few hundred dollars. The older PC based scopes are just too slow for most of what I do anymore, though they are handy logic analyzers if you only need a few channels. For many channels, an Tek 1240 or 1241 is tough to beat. Less than $100, $50 if you search for up to 32 channels just makes doing that job simple. Your worries about warrantee are quite valid. But if I can get a used scope or bit of test equipment for less than $0.50 on the dollar of a new one, it's a pretty good bargain for home use. If it is for work, whole different story. That's where the 2236 came in. I was making a living on the road doing field service. It couldn't break or I'd be in deep sneakers. So it arrived new in a box. Of course that was many many moons ago. Bob KI2L On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Alan, My $200 Tek 7854 mainframe with the 7S11/7T11 combo take my old scope up high enough to look at 13-14GHz repetitive signals. I don't think it can take a screen shot or do much if any analysis with these plugins though but they're still handy for a lot of things. I love the digital storage analog scopes of the 80s but the modern digital scopes have their place too. -Bob On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.comwrote: Sampling scopes will display repetative signals above the sampling frequency if the repetition rate of the signals and sampling rate are not relatedthere were GHz bandwidth scopes in the 60s using this method. Not a lot of good on single shot though. PC scopes are quite good for repetative slow signal and single shot within their sampling rate. i have a Pico Tech 50Ms/s which works well with a simple old laptop.it requires a parallel port so was quite cheap on that auction site we love to hate. It is a case with ALL measuring equipment you been to know HOW it works to interpret what it telling you. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: William H. Fite omni...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please Robert said; Bitscope headlines 100MHz analog bandwidth but you have to big a bit deeper to find up to 40Ms/s. Seems like they are wasting most of the bandwidth if the have an anti-alising filter. This is really only usable to 20MHz single shot. Yes, I noticed that, too. Almost sounds like deceptive advertising. On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Robert Atkinson robert8...@yahoo.co.ukwrote: Hi Bill, It depends what you need/want. There are issues with the PC based 'scopes. Most obvious to the user is response time. It can be fustrating to have the screen change a second after the event happened! Other issues are sample rate and input voltage range. The Bitscope headlines 100MHz analog bandwidth but you have to big a bit deeper to find up to 40Ms/s. Seems like they are wasting most of the bandwidth if the have an anti-alising filter. This is really only usable to 20MHz single shot. I could not find the input sensitivity and ranges. I looked at the BitScope a while ago and decided it was overpriced at $600. I was lucky to find an HP 54645D for the same money. Unless you need the PC connnectivty and simple logic analyser (the 54645D gives both ;-), I'd look at a conventional 'scope. As you are considering a PC 'scope, have a look at the Pico Technolgy range, http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope-specifications.html Their bandwith / sample rates make more sense. I've used their products and they work very well. Robert G8RPI. ---
Re: [time-nuts] Determining Time-Nut infection severity
To sort of make an on/off topic comment, here in NY, we have recently begun using hypothermic protocol on cardiac arrest patients that have undergone a reversal. If the heart has stopped and been restarted either with a defib or by CPR alone and we are on scene in a short enough span of time, we can start the treatment using chilled saline IV to lower the patient's body temperature rather dramatically en route to the hospital. I got to work the first one of these in our area a few months ago. Absolutely fascinating. Of course we need to make very careful and accurate note of the time the treatments begin. :) On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: There is one case in which a Swedish medical student was out skiing in Norway and went through the ice and was being held there by the strong water. It took them 45 min just to get her out of the water. Her heart had stopped. Her respiration had stopped. She have had no pulse or breath for over an hour when they finally started working on her at the hospital. She survived and is almost completely restored. ... This is OT for time-nuts, but it's a really good read. Atul Gawande The Checklist If something so simple can transform intensive care, what else can it do? December 10, 2007 http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande It begins with what it takes to save a drowning victim, in this case, a 3 year old girl. He's also written a book: The Checklist Manifesto http://gawande.com/the-checklist-manifesto To bring things back to time-nuts, if you were setting up gear or running a test, would a checklist help you avoid silly errors? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Fleamarket find
Fascinating discussion. One of my 'fest finds long ago was a 10811 on a 05328-20027 board. When I recently went and googled on that, I came up with a 5+year old discussion from the archives of this very list. http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2005-May/018382.html says that the 05328-20027 goes in a 5328. Oddly enough, the 5328 I have has a 10811 plugged directly into the motherboard so the two must be at least pin compatible. Any opinions on using the 10811 alone or should I put the 05328-20027 in as well? Bob On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net wrote: As you say, another revision. Searching on 05061-6199 refers back to this list. The 6199 board was apparently another one that showed up in the 5061B. As you guessed, it has the same functionality as the 6165 board. Ed Arthur Dent wrote: Ed Palmer wrote: The second board is 05061-6165. It includes frequency divider, amplifier, and level adjust circuitry to make it plug-compatible with the older oscillator. Here's a picture of that board. Notice the 4 SMB connectors and the four single lead connectors - just like the older oscillator. The 110 VAC heater on the old oscillator isn't needed with the 10811 so they didn't duplicate that. I don't have a newer HP 105 to compare and only have the schematic for the newer oscillator assembly that shows that it used the 10811 oscillator and a couple of circuit boards. It seems HP loved to make revisions. Here is another board similar to the one you just attached a link to. This one has the same connections as the one you have to connect to the older oscillator (this one was modified and in a piece of non-HP equipment)and although it appears at a glance to be functionally identical to your board, has a far different layout. The HP number on this board is 05061-6199 http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5095072396_83f549bd25_b.jpg -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 orientation vs lock
If you find a good source for the prototype kits, by all means, let me know. I've been gutting cheap/dead modules for the enclosures. A project I've been considering is putting a T'bolt into one just to send 1pps and 10mhz down the backplane. BTW, there is a yahoo group for TM500/5000 series gear. Not much traffic, but it is there. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tek500/ On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 11:19 AM, k6...@comcast.net wrote: Aha! Once again, Google is your friend -- http://www.slack.com/images/TE/EfratomPTB-100.jpg shows the Efratom Rubidium module, and it's a double-width unit. That gives plenty of room to mount the module horizontally, and plenty of room above and below for fins and fans. When I get my time machine working, one of the things I want to go back and stock up on are Tek 5xx prototyping kits. The single-width kits are rare enough these days (and expensive), but the double-width ones are pure unobtanium! Bob K6RTM On Sep 16, 2010, at 2:51 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote: I got one of the ebay LPRO-101s about 6 months ago and played with it for a while, but had problems maintaining a lock. First of all, it has a heat sink bolted to the bottom that is just a little larger than the LPRO itself, including being about 1.25 thick( 1 fins). Typical frequency when locked is 10,000,000.007 on a 5360A clocked by a Z3801A. Both then and now, it takes about 45 seconds to lock from cold, and will stay locked for about 45 minutes. I found that in the position with the heat sink on the bottom will stay locked the longest (up to a few days), but then it becomes intermittent. Other positions will lock for a while, but bottom down always works the longest. For those of you who employed these in TM5xx or similar plugins, did you have lock issues? Is my unit just old? Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 orientation vs lock
Nice to know I'm not the only one who has had this idea.
My thinking was to use a laptop supply plugged into a socket on the
back of the TM5006 and route volts down a pair on the back-plane to
modules that need continuous power. Drive the GPSDO and ovens on the
modules that have them.
And use a couple of other pairs for USB/serial, put a USB-GPIB and
USB hub in the empty space back around the power supply. Poof, modern
instrument. More or less. :)
Have also considered using a TM50{2,3,4} as an enclosure/basis for a
rover transverter setup.
Bob
KI2L
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:29 PM, shali...@gmail.com wrote:
It seems like it would be very tight in a single plug-in, if it even fits. A
dual PI would certainly work though.
Also, as someone pointed out, the TM-500 series may not have the power and
cooling available. I have. TM-5006 chassis that would certainly do the job in
both regards, but that's the last thing I would want running 24/7 in my
shop...
My LPRO found a spot in an old HP bench voltmeter chassis, and runs from a
recycled laptop power supply (that way, the heat from the supply is not
dissipated in the box). The installation is not complete, but I intend to
install a small computer fan to keep the air moving through holes in the
chassis.
I will then use a modified T-Bolt Monitor to monitor the parameters from the
LPRO, and the temperature via a front panel display.
Didier KO4BB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: d.sei...@comcast.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 19:57:09
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 orientation vs lock
Hi Bob-
I don't have the LPRO in a plugin, but I had considered it, and was wondering
if any of those that had built one had thermal and/or lock issues.
Re the sun in our valley... not this year! My tomatoes just started really
producing and my squash and zucchini still haven't even flowered. That has
NEVER happened to me before. A very odd year weather-wise!
Dave
- Original Message -
From: k6...@comcast.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:07:19 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 orientation vs lock
I assume you mean Tektronix TM5xx or 5xxx modules.
I haven't seen an LPRO plugin, but considered doing one for my TM506 rack. My
conclusion was that I couldn't get rid of enough heat without cutting custom
fins for the LPRO.
Recall that the physics package in the LPRO is the biggest source of heat,
and looking at the unit with the connector facing you and on the left, the
physics package is along the right side toward the rear of the unit. I
decided the way to mount the LPRO if I had to go vertical was with the
physics package closest to the top, to minimize the components that got
baked. (I welcome recalibration of this opinion from more knowledgeable
sources!)
If I could cut fins for the new top edge, as well as a good plate for the
bottom, and some fans, i might be able to get rid of enough heat to make it
work. I considered mounting the LPRO to the rear of the module connectors, in
the area containing the linear power supply components.
I reconsidered on recalling admonishments in the LPRO docs and on this list
that cesiums do not like magnetic fields! Mounting the unit next to large
power transformers wouldn't seem to be suck a good idea...
You might have better luck running it in a TM5006 rack, as they have much
better cooling and airflow (a reason to get rid of that 506 and pick up a
5006!).
I've had good results with my LPRO mounted on a half inch plate of T6061
aluminum and an old AMD heatsink+fan mounted above the physics package, held
in place with arctic silver heat transfer compound and spring-loaded wire
clips going to the plate. I've been meaning to run noise studies to see if
the fan causes any problems (vis a vis mag fields).
Since I expect to be using the LPRO only occasionally, I've been trying to
talk my son into making me a steampunk-themed case, something like rosewood
with brass corners and detailing...
Cheers and 73 -- Bob K6RTM in sunny silicon valley
On Sep 16, 2010, at 2:51 AM, d.sei...@comcast.net wrote:
I got one of the ebay LPRO-101s about 6 months ago and played with it for a
while, but had problems maintaining a lock. First of all, it has a heat sink
bolted to the bottom that is just a little larger than the LPRO itself,
including being about 1.25 thick( 1 fins). Typical frequency when locked
is 10,000,000.007 on a 5360A clocked by a Z3801A.
Both then and now, it takes about 45 seconds to lock from cold, and will
stay locked for about 45 minutes. I found that in the position with the heat
sink on the bottom will stay locked the longest (up
[time-nuts] Inexpensive source of HP-10811's and HP-10544's
At risk of giving up a secret source, I've just discovered that if you buy an HP 5328a/b with option 010, it comes with either a 10811 or a 10544 inside. Alone, these tend to command $80-$125 while working 5328a's with option 010 can be had for as low as $10+$20 shipping. Patience will turn up one with HPIB as well. And there is enough room inside for a GPS discipline card or a t'bolt. Just an observation. :) Bob KI2L ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies
Speaking of which, should have or stumble a gpib for said 5328a, I'm looking for one to go in my counter. Thanks, Bob On 7/24/10, Mark Spencer mspencer12...@yahoo.ca wrote: Thanks, I'm glad to hear I am on the right track. At some point it would be nice to obtain a counter that can measure the drift of the time base in the 5328A. The 5328A has a GPIB interface but as the display only varies by a few counts I'm not inclined to track down a GPIB adapter just to plot this.) Hopefully a newer counter would have a more generic interface. Best regards Mark Spencer - Original Message From: J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, July 24, 2010 1:49:51 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies Sounds about right. One cycle per 5 seconds or about 0.2 Hz difference. Therefore, 9,999,999.8 Hz. I would feed the GPSDO to trigger your scope and look at the output of the time base on one channel of the scope. You could also look at the GPSDO on the other channel. Then you could adjust your counter time base to 'freeze' the display. Probably good to 'align' the counter time base but for long term comparison, probably better to use a counter and plot the difference. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spencer Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 12:29 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies Hello: Just for grins I decided to compare the frquency from my GPSDO to the time base in my 5328A counter. I connected the 10 mhz time base from the counter to channel A of my 100 Mhz scope, fed the 10 mhz signal from my GPSDO into Channel B and with a T adaptor also fed this signal into the input of the counter. I scope to trigger from Channel B. The drift betwen the two signals on the scope seems to match the error in the displayed frquency on the counter. (ie. if the counter shows .9998 it takes approx 5 seconds for the the wave form on channel A to slip a full cycle realitve to channel B.) Is this a reasonable approach or is there a better way to compare two frequencies using a scope ? Best regards Mark Spencer ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Magnavox GPS engine
Does anyone have any documentation on these GPS modules? I've been unable to determine anything other than Magnavox sold the line to Leica. They have a 20 pin header much like a Jupiter, but don't appear to be pin compatible. Thanks, Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Magnavox GPS engine
Unfortunately not. This is more of a Jupiter looking module with the classic 20 pin DIL header. Thanks tough! On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Bob: Like this: http://www.prc68.com/I/MX4102.shtml#4200 Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Bob Bownes wrote: Does anyone have any documentation on these GPS modules? I've been unable to determine anything other than Magnavox sold the line to Leica. They have a 20 pin header much like a Jupiter, but don't appear to be pin compatible. Thanks, Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Magnavox GPS engine
Sounds like it. I'll try to unroll the thesis and read it. Thanks! Bob On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:27 PM, b...@lysator.liu.se wrote: Hi Bob, Is this the ca 1991 GPS Engine by Magnavox? (board size approx 65 x 165 mm) There is some documentation available in this thesis: http://www.physics.adelaide.edu.au/~cwilkins/thesis.tar.gz -- Björn Unfortunately not. This is more of a Jupiter looking module with the classic 20 pin DIL header. Thanks tough! On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Bob: Like this: http://www.prc68.com/I/MX4102.shtml#4200 Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com Bob Bownes wrote: Does anyone have any documentation on these GPS modules? I've been unable to determine anything other than Magnavox sold the line to Leica. They have a 20 pin header much like a Jupiter, but don't appear to be pin compatible. Thanks, Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A different timenuts interest
Unfortunately the cable reached its sell by date on the 18th May this year when it broke, dropping the ball on the marble floor , denting it. Most unfortunate. Denting the bob or the marble floor? :) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A different timenuts interest
There is at least one in DC, at the Smithsonian iirc. RPI, where I went to college, had one in the 3 story stairwell in the library. Don't know if it is still there. I remember one someplace in London too. Someone mentioned temperature compensation. What would you need to compensate for? Temp change in the wire wouldn't effect the rotation as far as I can tell. Swing length might be different based on temp of the wire I guess, but with a long pendulum, I think the magnet is going to way overcome that issue. The one @ RPI had issues due to air movement in the shaft, but that's a different problem. I suppose the right method is to use a GPS disciplined oscillator and the appropriate divider to drive the magnet under the floor. :) To cut down in draft induced drift and jitter, you'd have to put the whole thing in a vacuum though! On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Hal Murray wrote: Several years ago, I found a web site for a commercial place that made them for museums. (I forget why I was looking for that sort of stuff.) You might find interesting stuff/ideas via google but I didn't find a similar site with a bit of searching. The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago had one when I lived there in the 1960's. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A different timenuts interest
Silly me, I just realized you need to compensate for the change in length with temperature. This sounds like a great project! On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: There is at least one in DC, at the Smithsonian iirc. RPI, where I went to college, had one in the 3 story stairwell in the library. Don't know if it is still there. I remember one someplace in London too. Someone mentioned temperature compensation. What would you need to compensate for? Temp change in the wire wouldn't effect the rotation as far as I can tell. Swing length might be different based on temp of the wire I guess, but with a long pendulum, I think the magnet is going to way overcome that issue. The one @ RPI had issues due to air movement in the shaft, but that's a different problem. I suppose the right method is to use a GPS disciplined oscillator and the appropriate divider to drive the magnet under the floor. :) To cut down in draft induced drift and jitter, you'd have to put the whole thing in a vacuum though! On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist rich...@karlquist.com wrote: Hal Murray wrote: Several years ago, I found a web site for a commercial place that made them for museums. (I forget why I was looking for that sort of stuff.) You might find interesting stuff/ideas via google but I didn't find a similar site with a bit of searching. The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago had one when I lived there in the 1960's. Rick N6RK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] surface mount (was PICTIC II Parts from Mouser)
Not to mention not having to drill holes anymore. I built a 15Ghz prescaler over the weekend. Total time from concept to completed (and operational!) prototype was 2 hours. No muss, no fuss, just design the circuit, print out the toner transfer, paste it onto the board, etch, apply paste parts, drop into the toaster, er, reflow oven, pull it out, inspect and turn it on. You don't even need to go as far as the microscope (though they really do make the job easier). A simple $10 set of magnifying eye pieces or a 5x magnifying glass lamp ($30 @ Harbor Freight) does a great job. Am alternative is a webcam that will focus up close. I hooked up an old TV camera with a macro lens (ebay, $5) to a video capture USB dongle (ebay again, $15) and put it on an old retort stand. I can look at it on the screen on the workbench and even do video capture of the board. Pretty much the ultimate in cheap magnification. I covered some of this in a presentation at the NEWS conference last winter. http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/power_meter.ppt Bob On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Robert J Marinelli b...@stanford.edu wrote: Hi Richard, Yes, used to feel that way - until acquiring a surplus dissecting (stereo) microscope, now I actually *prefer* surface mount. Much easier to move parts around, it's easy to apply paste solder entire boards in a $50 toaster oven, and access to all the latest parts. Hard to believe, but really is easier once you can clearly see. For some nice tuturials, see the sparkfun website, also the schmartboard website. Also, when I lay out surface mount boards, they tend to be smaller overall, and so a bit lower cost. Please do try with a low cost stereo microscope - it changes everything :) -Bob p.s. Finger size is no issue - tweezers work nicely. Oh and surface mount resistors caps are unbelievably low cost in cut tape, and super easy to handle that way. Much better than loose parts IMO. On Jul 19, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote: The TS272CN is an acceptable substitute for the TS272ACN in the PICTIC II but as noted has a higher input offset voltage. This can be compensated for in the second stage by adjustment of the offset trimmer. I selected premium parts for temperature stability in the application. Sorry the manufacturers are making human compatible devices obsolete and only carrying over surface mount devices as they go Pb free for the EU market. Makes it difficult to keep up with what's available and harder for amateurs with fat fingers and poor eyesight like myself to build simple projects! Richard Here we go again! The TS272ACN has just gone 'non-stocked' at Mouser. Will the TS272CN degrade the performance? It looks like the difference between the two is the TS272CN has a higher input offset voltage. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] surface mount (was PICTIC II Parts from Mouser)
A few short videos shot with the camera/usb video capture setup I mentioned earlier: http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/video1.mpg Video 1 - Black White inspection of a prototype power sensor. Low magnification http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/video2.mpg Video 2 - Colour inspection of same sensor. Same magnification. About 2-3x http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/video3.mpg Video 3 - Longer version of #2. Note lighting changes in 2nd half. http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/video4.mpg Video 4 - Short, color, higher magnification http://www.fastbobs.com/bob/radio/video5.mpg Video 5 - Longest, highest magnification. Same probe as earlier shots. Note lighting changes as the light source is moved around showing shadows. On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Robert J Marinelli b...@stanford.edu wrote: Hi Richard, Yes, used to feel that way - until acquiring a surplus dissecting (stereo) microscope, now I actually *prefer* surface mount. Much easier to move parts around, it's easy to apply paste solder entire boards in a $50 toaster oven, and access to all the latest parts. Hard to believe, but really is easier once you can clearly see. For some nice tuturials, see the sparkfun website, also the schmartboard website. Also, when I lay out surface mount boards, they tend to be smaller overall, and so a bit lower cost. Please do try with a low cost stereo microscope - it changes everything :) -Bob p.s. Finger size is no issue - tweezers work nicely. Oh and surface mount resistors caps are unbelievably low cost in cut tape, and super easy to handle that way. Much better than loose parts IMO. On Jul 19, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote: The TS272CN is an acceptable substitute for the TS272ACN in the PICTIC II but as noted has a higher input offset voltage. This can be compensated for in the second stage by adjustment of the offset trimmer. I selected premium parts for temperature stability in the application. Sorry the manufacturers are making human compatible devices obsolete and only carrying over surface mount devices as they go Pb free for the EU market. Makes it difficult to keep up with what's available and harder for amateurs with fat fingers and poor eyesight like myself to build simple projects! Richard Here we go again! The TS272ACN has just gone 'non-stocked' at Mouser. Will the TS272CN degrade the performance? It looks like the difference between the two is the TS272CN has a higher input offset voltage. Ed ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Parts (Mouser) for the PICTIC II
q4 and the 3/8 trimmers are in my list. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: I'll get these 2 corrections in tonight. I was wondering if the 3/8 parts would fit. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Another thing I think we need to get on the project is Q4: 512-2N7000TA Farichild's version at 0.13 each. Since I didn't create the project I don't seem to be able to edit it Bob On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:26 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote: Bob, Instead of the 3266 series go to the 3296 series 5K Trimmer, top adjust 652-3296W-1-502LF 7100 in stock 652-3296Y-1-502LF 590 in stock 200 Trimmer, top adjust 652-3296W-1-201LF 1090 in stock 652-3296Y-1-201LF 830 in stock Richard Hi The real question somebody needs to answer is - will it work with side adjust trimmers? If not, then we're going to have to find another source to get the trimmers from. The project on Mouser shows the 3266p trimmer. AFIK the correct part is the 3266w. The board also appears to be laid out for the 3266y. Another alternative is the 3266x. All the details of what's what are at: http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf My guess is that the 3266p isn't going to work. The 3266y is even harder to get than the 3266w. The 3266x looks problematic when you go to do the adjustment Rational solutions: 1) Jameco shows the 3266w as ships today in 5 K ohms. Who knows how many they actually have 2) 3266w is available in the 2K ohm flavor at Mouser (lots in stock). If you change R16 and R23 to 1K ohms, the 2K pot should work fine. That makes them the same value as R5 and R6. One fewer line item ... I'd vote for option 2. Bob On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: Safe to get in the water yet? Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Parts (Mouser) for the PICTIC II
I'll get these 2 corrections in tonight. I was wondering if the 3/8 parts would fit. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Another thing I think we need to get on the project is Q4: 512-2N7000TA Farichild's version at 0.13 each. Since I didn't create the project I don't seem to be able to edit it Bob On Jul 8, 2010, at 7:26 PM, Richard H McCorkle wrote: Bob, Instead of the 3266 series go to the 3296 series 5K Trimmer, top adjust 652-3296W-1-502LF 7100 in stock 652-3296Y-1-502LF 590 in stock 200 Trimmer, top adjust 652-3296W-1-201LF 1090 in stock 652-3296Y-1-201LF 830 in stock Richard Hi The real question somebody needs to answer is - will it work with side adjust trimmers? If not, then we're going to have to find another source to get the trimmers from. The project on Mouser shows the 3266p trimmer. AFIK the correct part is the 3266w. The board also appears to be laid out for the 3266y. Another alternative is the 3266x. All the details of what's what are at: http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/3266.pdf My guess is that the 3266p isn't going to work. The 3266y is even harder to get than the 3266w. The 3266x looks problematic when you go to do the adjustment Rational solutions: 1) Jameco shows the 3266w as ships today in 5 K ohms. Who knows how many they actually have 2) 3266w is available in the 2K ohm flavor at Mouser (lots in stock). If you change R16 and R23 to 1K ohms, the 2K pot should work fine. That makes them the same value as R5 and R6. One fewer line item ... I'd vote for option 2. Bob On Jul 8, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Lester Veenstra wrote: Safe to get in the water yet? Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Parts (Mouser) for the PICTIC II
It has not been updated yet. We're still looking for a good replacement. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.com wrote: Has the Mouser list: https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=c7ada9ced0 Been updated with the right trimmers, or is right still up in the air? Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Parts (Mouser) for the PICTIC II
Not right this sec. Give us a few hours. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.com wrote: So now would not be a good time to execute a Mouser Project buy. Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: Bob Bownes [mailto:bow...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 4:05 PM To: les...@veenstras.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Parts (Mouser) for the PICTIC II It has not been updated yet. We're still looking for a good replacement. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Lester Veenstra les...@veenstras.com wrote: Has the Mouser list: https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=c7ad a9ced0 Been updated with the right trimmers, or is right still up in the air? Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PICTIC II PCB order placed
Ill take two boards by the way. Thanks! On 7/3/10, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: No problem, I expect to have the boards 7/21, I will have plenty. Stanley - Original Message From: Robert Berg bo...@pobox.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, July 3, 2010 9:26:49 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PICTIC II PCB order placed Stanley, If it's not too late, could I order 2 boards, please? Thanks! Robert Berg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Pic programing for the PICTIC II
Ok. I think there are a few of us who can/would program these up for folks who need one. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: Thank you but I have all I want to do with the boards later I may change my mind. Stanley - Original Message From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 10:30:25 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pic programing for the PICTIC II I'm not too excited about all of the individualshipping, but if you can tell me how many you want, I could buy them, program them, and ship them to you to be distributed with the boards. -Chuck Harris Stanley Reynolds wrote: I see some $20 programmers on the auction site. Goggle turns up many designs with the warning that your PC serial port needs 11 to 12 volts. Did see a design that used a external power supply. A zif socket maybe over kill if you are only using it once. Any volunteers to supply preprogrammed 16f688 chips ? As we cover the world shipping could be a big factor so more than one volunteer would be great. FAQ about PICTIC II My only connection to this project is to supply circuit boards at cost. Richard has done all the hard work. Developed by Richard H McCorkle see wiki site : http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=precision_timing:pictic No smd parts, standard through the hole parts and dip ic chips. programmer links: http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/IspPgm30a/ISP-Pgm30a.html http://webs.uolsinectis.com.ar/nancy/pic/pic_en.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Pic programing for the PICTIC II
Folks, I put together a mouser 'project' with all of the parts. This means you can just go to the mouser site and order all the parts for the project. No need for anyone to do a group buy of parts, re-pack and re-distribute them. Here's how to get to it: To access the project, click on the url listed below or copy and paste it into your web browser: http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=c7ada9ced0 Or you can access the project by going to http://www.mouser.com/ and click on the EZ Buy option on the top navigation bar. You can also click on this link or copy and paste it into your browser: http://www.mouser.com/Tools/Tools.aspx. Then enter the following access number listed below into the Project Access ID function. c7ada9ced0 Total cost w/o shipping is $30.30. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Peter Vince pvi...@theiet.org wrote: Apologies for the previous incomplete message - somehow my laptop trackpad jumped the cursor over the send button :-( Better ? How many16f688s are we talking here? My thinking is less than 10 as only two people have asked. Don't know how many have not asked. I would also like a pre-programmed PIC please, if someone can arrange that. Or ideally, a complete kit of parts, but as the previous correspondent has written, I appreciate that is a lot of work. Thanks, Peter Vince (London, England) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Pic programing for the PICTIC II
Changed it to a different part that is available. Difference is RHoS compliance method. Changed the backordered 2n3906 as well. Shaved $0.02 off the total cost! Bob On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi It looks like it may be a while before the trim pots come in (12 weeks...). The 3266X (side adjust rather than top adjust) is in stock. I'm not sure if the layout is side adjust friendly or not. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bownes Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:54 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pic programing for the PICTIC II Folks, I put together a mouser 'project' with all of the parts. This means you can just go to the mouser site and order all the parts for the project. No need for anyone to do a group buy of parts, re-pack and re-distribute them. Here's how to get to it: To access the project, click on the url listed below or copy and paste it into your web browser: http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=c7ada9ced0 Or you can access the project by going to http://www.mouser.com/ and click on the EZ Buy option on the top navigation bar. You can also click on this link or copy and paste it into your browser: http://www.mouser.com/Tools/Tools.aspx. Then enter the following access number listed below into the Project Access ID function. c7ada9ced0 Total cost w/o shipping is $30.30. On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Peter Vince pvi...@theiet.org wrote: Apologies for the previous incomplete message - somehow my laptop trackpad jumped the cursor over the send button :-( Better ? How many16f688s are we talking here? My thinking is less than 10 as only two people have asked. Don't know how many have not asked. I would also like a pre-programmed PIC please, if someone can arrange that. Or ideally, a complete kit of parts, but as the previous correspondent has written, I appreciate that is a lot of work. Thanks, Peter Vince (London, England) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] PICTIC II
I'd like one. On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Stanley Reynolds stanley_reyno...@yahoo.com wrote: The price would be at my cost and actual shipping, no packaging or processing charges added by me. Not sure of price till I have the number of boards but hope as a group we will get a better price. This would also allow us to order just 1 if that is the need. I can take paypal but that has their cost as well. I would not expect money till I've received the boards and I'm ready to ship. Stanley ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Flood of low end priced VNAs on FleeBay
There are a couple of very nice VNA's that can be picked up in assembled or kit form for $500. The DG8SAQ and N2PK units both come to mind. On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:58 AM, jimlux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: J. Forster wrote: VNAs are very expensive toys. I have an HP 8753 and was just outbid on a 6 GHz source assembly. :(( Mine has a very complex multi-chip RF Hybrid that has a partial failure, so it only goes to 3 GHz. That's a serious problem with modern high-end microwave gear, if anything dies, you're prettry much screwed. Even something as old as an 8510 has the same problem. It's not like you can get spare boards, assuming you can even figure which board is dead. Or, replace parts on the boards/modules. OTOH, for 3GHz, less than a kilobuck buys you a pretty impressive PC peripheral style VNA. Yeah, not the performance of a modern PNA, but probably better than sweeper/141T or even an 8510 class box in some cases. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] preferred GPS
So, do folks have a preferred GPS module to discipline clocks? Clearly some are better than others. I'd like one that will output in NMEA so I can use it to drive some other things as well, but other than that, it has become clear that the Rockwell MicroTrack TU00 just isn't going to cut it as it only locks to 4 satellites, has quite a bit of jitter, doesn't hold a very good 3D lock (+/-100m just isn't good enough for me...) Thanks, Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] wanted: hp plugins
On a similar note, should anyone have a working 853a display they are willing to part with, please contact me. Thanks, Bob On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:50 AM, K. Szeker szeke...@gmail.com wrote: PS: I know Mr. Lüders as a very serious seller, really 100% OK! K. 2010/5/17 K. Szeker szeke...@gmail.com Hi Norm! On the eBay is one actual yet: http://cgi.ebay.ch/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=350354294655ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Karesz 2010/5/17 normn3...@stny.rr.com Hi! Wanted: HP 8555a or 8559a plugins. Drop me a note with condition and location. Pics would be helpful! Will consider entire packages. Thanks, Norm n3ykf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
