Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?

[Justin Pinnix]

Contrary to popular belief, most of us in the U.S. have heard of the metric
system and understand how it works.  Personally, I agree that it is a
simpler and superior system.

But, English is the system we "think" in.  We know that if a person is 300
lbs they need to lose weight, you need to drink 8 cups of water a day, and
wish for 70 degree days.  Grandma's cookie recipe uses 1 cup of flour.
 Trying to convince 300 million people to re-learn all of that is a tough
sell when there is no obvious advantage to them.  Most are not scientists
or engineers and aren't likely to do business with a foreign country.

Those of us who are scientists and engineers likely use metric at work and
English at home.  Is that wrong?  Maybe, but we're smart people and we can
deal with it :-)

It's not like metric is totally absent.  We drink 2 liter cokes and defend
ourselves with 9mm pistols.   Our cars use mostly metric parts.  Even ham
radio operators, arguably the most jingoistic and set in the past bunch
around, get on the 80, 40, and 20 METER bands.

Furthermore, I've been to some of these countries that supposedly use the
metric system.  One of them measured distance between cities in km and
speed limits in MPH.  Now THAT was annoying!

"Progressives" tried to force Metric on the U.S. in the 1970s and it didn't
catch on.  Besides, we've got bigger standardization problems to deal with
these days - getting everyone here to speak English!

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:29 PM,  wrote:

> I told myself I would stop after my last posts, but I can't help it.
>
> I do not pretend to know everything, but I am one of the relatively few in
> my circle of friends with extensive experience with both systems, and after
> 26 years here, the imperial system has simply not made a case for itself as
> far as I am concerned. It is my opinion, and a fact as far as I am
> concerned, not that it makes it a universal truth in any other frame of
> reference. Your mileage may vary.
>
> I agree that the decimal system is a big part of what makes me prefer the
> metric system. The meter itself is not a superior unit than the inch or the
> foot to measure anything. But there are other considerations when using one
> "system" versus the other.
> Our designers and mechanical engineers here use decimal fractions of an
> inch in specifying mechanical drawings, but raw metal stock (and tools) are
> still only available in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 (and so on) of an inch dimensions,
> so most dimensions have to be given with 3 or 4 decimals, and even then
> they are not always right. When trying to mentally add two, three or four
> dimensions each with 4 decimals, and one or two digits to the left of the
> decimal point, it stops being fun and its easy to make mistakes.
> Somehow, that was never an issue when I was designing back in France. Most
> dimensions has 2 or 3 significant digits, making the mental juggling much
> easier.
> That was the reason for my characterization of the imperial system as
> being more error prone. I never said or implied that it was less precise.
> Precision is a function of the instrument, not the frame of reference.
>
> In the metric system, screws and wires are referenced by their diameter,
> not a reference number that requires a table to figure out how big they
> are. I understand these numbers correspond to something, they are not
> arbitrary, but while they may simplify "some" calculations, in everyday
> tasks, these numbers tend to complicate life instead of simplifying it.
> Here, every designer has tables after tables plastered on their walls. In
> France, I do not remember that we needed so many.
>
> Another small thing I miss is that a liter of water weighs a kg (under
> reference conditions, I forgot what that was :). Then the specific weight
> of various materials only has to be known by their "density" (ratio of
> specific weight compared to water). It makes all sorts of calculations (
> and guestimations) easy.
>
> But its just my opinion :)
>
> Didier
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Harris 
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:30:34
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement<
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] gravity controlled pendulumn clock?
>
> Hal Murray wrote:
> ...
> >
> > If you were an alien landing on Earth for the first time, which system
> would
> > make more sense to you?
>
> Ah!   A Godcentric view of the universe.  Decimal is an arbitrary
> number system that came about purely because we had 10 fingers, and
> a brain that could only think of using them to count on.
>
> Your hands are probably right now fondling a model of a life form that
> would find the metric system to be quite foreign, and unfriendly...
> Surely you should count using a number system based on an even power
> of 2?
>
> The

Re: [time-nuts] z3801a, z3805a, z3815a, z3816a, thunderbolt and thunderbolt

[Justin Pinnix]

I've done it before with the Palisade driver in non-polling mode.  It
works, but you have to rely on the timing of a serial port and apply your
best guess for a delay.  If he's trying to detect phase differences between
multiple thunderbolts, the serial port + OS combination might be too
jittery to measure that difference.

On the other hand, I suspect using a FatPPS and the ATOM driver would be
even less jittery than polling (if it worked), so maybe it's a moot point.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:56 PM,  wrote:

> Hi Justin,
>
> > There are some issues using a Thunderbolt with NTP.  See
> > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp/html/drivers/driver29.html (the
> stuff
> > about event polling).
>
> The Trimble Palisade (aka Acutime, Acutime 2000, Acutime Gold) has a nice
> feature called Event input.
>
> "Event input
> The Acutime Gold accepts an external event input in the shape of an RS-422
> pulse. The external event pulse input is supported on Port A (pins 6 and
> 7). The Acutime Gold transmits a TSIP time packet (0x8F-0B or 0x8F-AD) in
> response to the event input. The TSIP packet increments the event count
> field for each event received. The event time stamp is generated within
> 488 nanoseconds of its arrival at the Acutime Gold interface connector."
>
> The prefered mode for the palisade driver is to use this feature. When the
> driver was adapted for Thunderbolt is was seen as a problem that the Tbolt
> receiver lacked the "Event input".
>
> I have not runt a Tbolt with NTP, but it should be very doable with the
> Palisade driver in the "Thunderbolt"-mode. Another option could be the
> Parse-driver
>
>http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp/html/drivers/driver8.html
>
> running in the Trimble TSIP mode. (mode 10)
>
> --
>
>Björn
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] z3801a, z3805a, z3815a, z3816a, thunderbolt and thunderbolt

[Justin Pinnix]

There are some issues using a Thunderbolt with NTP.  See
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp/html/drivers/driver29.html (the stuff
about event polling).

Also, you will need http://www.tapr.org/kits_fatpps.html (or something like
it) if you want to use its PPS signal with NTP.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:08 AM, Mark C. Stephens wrote:

> Hey Thanks for the reply, I have 2 uses for the GPSDO, ref clock for NTP
> server or 10mhz ref clocks for the labs.
>
> If I find one is not suitable for one task, I can try it on another.
>
> I have built a few GPSDO and regularly change oscillators, so I have a
> good idea about the circuitry and performance.
>
> Having said that it gets very hard to approach a professionally designed
> unit.
>
> Actually, I am toying with the idea of 3 separate Thunderbolts connected
> to NTPD using thunderbolt drivers. Each of the Trimble's will use a
> separate antenna (3 active antenna cost less than a splitter, go figure)
>
> But I am beginning to ask myself why?! Isn't it good enough already?
>
>
> mark
>
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 12:20:45 +0100
> From: Azelio Boriani 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] z3801a, z3805a, z3815a, z3816a, thunderbolt
>and thunderbolt II
> Message-ID:
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> A long-time data collection? I can test an HP58503A (I think it is the
> Z3801A), I have the Z3815A and the TBolt. Of course I need time to test...
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Hal Murray  >wrote:
>
> >
> > ma...@non-stop.com.au said:
> > > Hi All, Risking opening a potential can of worms, has anyone have a
> specs
> > > roundup of GPSDO?
> >
> > > Ideally, Maximums of Phase noise, Jitter, accuracy...
> >
> > One of the variables is the quality of the antenna, both position and
> loss
> > in
> > the cable.
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Bluetooth for Tbolt

[Justin Pinnix]

If you can get that part working, let me know and I'll give you a way to
choose a different COM port in Thunderhead.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:10 PM, David VanHorn <
d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com> wrote:

>
> So the question is, does the Ipaq BT implementation support SPP?  If so,
> then this should work.
> The BT serial interface on the Ipaq will have to be paired to the BT
> serial device on the Tbolt by whatever process is in the Ipaq.
> After that, use a terminal program on the Ipaq to connect to the port, and
> see what data you get.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Unplug T-bolt before booting up...??

[Justin Pinnix]

Happens with traditional serial ports, too.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:53 PM, David VanHorn <
d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com> wrote:

>
> That sure sounds like "Psychomouse"..
>
> I've never seen it happen except on USB serial ports. Apparently when they
> enumerate, windows tries to figure out what sort of device might be
> connected beyond the port, makes the wrong diagnosis, and all hell breaks
> loose.
>
> 
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf
> Of David J Taylor [david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:35 AM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Unplug T-bolt before booting up...??
>
> > Hello, TimeNutters--
> >
> > I have heard of the problem of needing to unplug
> > a T-bolt before booting up the (Windows) computer
> > but I have never seen that problem myself.  I have
> > had a T-bolt running on several different desktops
> > and laptops and never experienced it.  I do recall
> > that there was a fix for this problem but have no
> > idea what it is.
> >
> > Mike Baker
>
> Mike,
>
> There is a note here which may help fix your Windows detecting a new
> "Microsoft Serial Ball Point Mouse"
>
>  http://www.gpsmap.net/GarminHints.html#GPSR_ComputerMouse
>
> Cheers,
> David
> --
> SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
> Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email:  david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC

[Justin Pinnix]

Chris, I think you and I are trying to accomplish different goals.  I want
to be able to glance up and see (exactly) what time it is.  It's just a
glorified wall clock that's always on and displaying a time.  The health
information is just to validate the time.

I do have an iPad.  Yes, the same device can check time and email, but I'd
have to switch between apps to do that which requires several button
presses and clicks.  I'd rather leave my email up and just glance at the
clock.

Also, I don't think I'd do all this work just to get time on the iPad.  I'd
just use the Emerald-Sequoia NTP app :-)

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Justin Pinnix 
> wrote:
> > Sounds like a good idea for a modern handheld, but the relics we are
> > talking about don't have WiFi or any means of networking except for
> serial
>
>
> It's 2011, almost 2012.  I assumed every human over the age of 10
> already has some kind of networked portable device. (Maybe I have a
> sample bias living in So. California?)Kind of neat that the same
> gadget that reads this e-mail will also tell to the current user by
> the heater in the TB's oscillator.
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC

[Justin Pinnix]

Sounds like a good idea for a modern handheld, but the relics we are
talking about don't have WiFi or any means of networking except for serial
and IR.

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> As long as you are willing to use a micro controller, I think the best
> way to make a status display is to have to controller maintain a web
> page.  Then just about any pock device you own can look at the status
> page.  Sometimes it makes sense to put an LCD on a device.  I
> think only if the user spends time right there near the device.   A
> microwave oven is a good example.   But if the user is not there
> looking better i think to simply make a web page.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:45 PM, WA7NE  wrote:
> >  Hi Justin,
> > Great stuff.   I have several iPaqs and a Thunderbolt so I will be giving
> > this a try.  I've been saving several iPaqs for just such a possibility.
> > I'm not very adept at programming but I did manage to program a simple
> > calculator for my iPaq using MS eMbedded several years ago just to prove
> I
> > could.  I saw some possibilities for using the iPaq to display data but
> > never had the time to pursue them further.
> >
> > I'm currently building a LCD display for my Thunderbolt using a PIC.  I'm
> > far enough down that road to not change the design.  But, I do have
> another
> > case that will fit the iPaq display.  Thanks to you, that may become my
> next
> > project.  I'm very appreciative that you posted your work.
> >
> > Just wanted to let you know there is interest in your work and to
> encourage
> > you.
> >
> > tnx & 73
> > Wayne, WA7NE
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Justin Pinnix
> > Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:56 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC
> >
> > Nuts,
> >
> > A while back, I scored an old Compaq iPaq Pocket PC for cheap at an
> auction.
> > Recently, I wrote a program for it that reads the time and health
> > information from a Thunderbolt and displays it in real-time.  More info
> > available here:  http://www.fuzzythinking.com/projects/thunderhead/
> >
> > I may be the only guy in the world who owns both of those pieces of
> > hardware, but in case anyone else does, please enjoy this program.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Justin
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Guys,

Several questions here about models.  I'll do my best to answer.

I'm using an iPaq 3825, so I know for sure it works there.

Robert reports success on the iPaq 2200 and 3950.  Thanks Robert!

I looked up the Fujitsu Siemens LOOX 420.  It's an ARM type processor, so I
suspect it would work on that device.

Unsure about the Jornada - there were numerous models.  If you don't have a
serial port, that's going to be a problem.  Perhaps you do and it's a
matter of cabling?  Which model number is yours?

One of the shortcuts I took was to hardcode the serial port name to COM1:.
 If this presents a problem, I can make it a registry setting or maybe even
cook up a dialog.

If anyone tries these or other devices, please let me know how it turns out
(positive or negative).

Thanks,
-Justin

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Don Latham  wrote:

> Gee. I have an old Jornada palm with windows CE. Might work if i gan
> generate a serial interface?
> Don
>
> Robert Atkinson
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Runs OK on both my HP iPaq H2200 (Pocket PC 2003 Ver. 4.20)and Compaq
> > iPaq 3950 (Pocket PC 2002 Ver. 3.0)
> >
> > Robert G8RPI.
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >  From: Kevin Rosenberg 
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> > Sent: Saturday, 26 November 2011, 17:12
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Justin Pinnix wrote:
> >> A while back, I scored an old Compaq iPaq Pocket PC for cheap at an
> >> auction.  Recently, I wrote a program for it that reads the time and
> >> health
> >> information from a Thunderbolt and displays it in real-time.  More
> >> info
> >> available here:  http://www.fuzzythinking.com/projects/thunderhead/
> >
> > Nice project. Could you recommend some model numbers of iPaqs
> > that would be compatible with the hardware and software?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC

[Justin Pinnix]

Thanks Robert.

Another fellow also replied privately with the enclosure idea.  That sounds
like a good idea, but make sure you leave some way to punch the reset
button on the bottom of the iPaq from outside the case.  Before I got
shutdown working, that was the only way to get the serial port back.

FWIW, my Thunderbolt is screwed to a wall mounted panel near floor level.
 I have the iPaq sitting in its cradle on top of my desk, thus using a
minimal amount of space and only a single cable needs to go to the desk.
 That backlight really helps light up the room at night :-)

Thanks,
-Justin

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Robert Atkinson wrote:

> Hi Justin,
> You are not the only one! I have a Thunderbolt and a couple of iPaqs. The
> program looks great. I'm considering gutting a unit and building it into
> the case with my T-Bolt. They are available used at minimal cost.
>
> Thank you for making this avialable.
> Robert  G8RPI.
>
>
>
> ________
>  From: Justin Pinnix 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Friday, 25 November 2011, 22:55
> Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC
>
> Nuts,
>
> A while back, I scored an old Compaq iPaq Pocket PC for cheap at an
> auction.  Recently, I wrote a program for it that reads the time and health
> information from a Thunderbolt and displays it in real-time.  More info
> available here:  http://www.fuzzythinking.com/projects/thunderhead/
>
> I may be the only guy in the world who owns both of those pieces of
> hardware, but in case anyone else does, please enjoy this program.
>
> Thanks,
> -Justin
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Re: [time-nuts] PC time app

[Justin Pinnix]

Dunno.  Does the NMEA driver work on the Meinberg NTP for Windows?

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:45 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Don Latham  wrote:
> > Just redoing a PC in the shop. Don't know if I've suggested a program
> > called NMEATime to the nuts.
>
> This works better than NTP?
>
>
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitoring for Pocket PC

[Justin Pinnix]

Nuts,

A while back, I scored an old Compaq iPaq Pocket PC for cheap at an
auction.  Recently, I wrote a program for it that reads the time and health
information from a Thunderbolt and displays it in real-time.  More info
available here:  http://www.fuzzythinking.com/projects/thunderhead/

I may be the only guy in the world who owns both of those pieces of
hardware, but in case anyone else does, please enjoy this program.

Thanks,
-Justin
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Re: [time-nuts] Those pesky Neutrinos again...

[Justin Pinnix]

I'm no physicist, but is it possible that the speed of light is faster than
we thought it is?  Space isn't a perfect vaccum, and we know neutrinos are
less affected by "stuff" than photons.  Maybe they travel closer to c than
the actual photons we have been able to measure...

On Sunday, November 20, 2011, Robin Kimberley 
wrote:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236
>
> Thoughts anyone?
>
> Rob Kimberley
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] iPhone keeping better time?

[Justin Pinnix]

Modern CPUs typically change their clock speeds and can go real slow while
idle.  This is why modern PCs keep so much worse time than their 1990s
ancestors.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:56 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I doubt we will ever see good time keeping on an IOS type device.  The
>> problem is battery life.  Good time keeping requires a  stable local
>> oscillator of some kind that must remain powered up 24x7.   But to get
>> the long battery life they must power off everything they possibly
>> can.  No mater how far technology advances it will always require less
>> power to not ruin an oscillator then to run one.
>>
>> I doubt Apple would run NTP in an iPhone.  They don't want to multi
>> task the CPU and there is no stable  local oscillator to be
>> disciplined.
>>
>
> Chris, I can see your point, but these devices must have a CPU running all
> the time, otherwise how would the soft power-up work?  Can the drain of a
> CMOS clock chip such as that used in millions of PCs be all that much more?
>
> But suppose there is no clock, even just one SNTP sync when starting or
> reconnecting to the network would make the iPad a far better timekeeper -
> no need for full NTP.
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
> --
> SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
> Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email:  david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>
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Re: [time-nuts] iPhone keeping better time?

[Justin Pinnix]

It's even worse on the WiFi iPad - there is no way to automatically set the
time.  You can only do it via the "Settings" page and that only gives you
minute resolution.

The Emerald-Sequoia app is nice, but since it can't actually "fix" the
time, every app that has time constraints has to do its own NTP.

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:58 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> As I remember you simply compile NTP on the Mac and it just worked.
>> No need for a "port".  Has something changed?Mac OS is really just
>> BSD with a big bunch of layered software on top.
>>
>> Chris Albertson
>>
>
> I'd looked for a download, and not found one.  I cannot imagine the
> typically portrayed Mac (or PC) user compiling NTP for themselves.  But if
> it's installed by default, and correctly configured, it's not an issue.
>
> Lack of good timekeeping on the iPhone or iPad is an unnecesaary
> inconvenience in use.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David
> --
> SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
> Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email:  david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>
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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt minor alarm - bit 11

[Justin Pinnix]

Anyone know what bit 11 (0x0800)  of the Thunderbolt's minor alarm field
is?  My documentation stops at bit 8 (test mode).

Thanks,
-JP
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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Rb lamp subject to wearout?

[Justin Pinnix]

I like his "NO timewaster" disclaimer.  I've been yelling that at people
around the office :-)

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Javier Herrero wrote:

> El 15/11/2011 20:09, Peter Gottlieb escribió:
>
>
>>Ebay seller "nichegeek" will take $35.00 shipped for these units.  You
>>can't buy a good OXCO for that.  These are the ones which are more
>>suited for digital purposes.
>>
>>
>>  I could not resist to buy one from him last sunday... but at 37.99, now
> he has them at 35.99 - and some also at the previous price!
>
> Anyway, he has a funny paragraph at the end of the announcement, stating
> that the stability measurements are limited by the stability of the Cs
> reference, but results are a significantly improved when comparing a Rb
> with another... sigh!
>
> Regards,
>
> Javier
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Serial to Excel utility

[Justin Pinnix]

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Jim Lux  wrote:


> $100k/hr -> about $1000/day..   If the $250 widget and an hour meets the
> need, it's a win.
>

Might oughta check your math there, buddy. $100K/hr is quite a lot of money
:-)

(just kidding, was obviously a typo)

But, back to the original point - people who sell software have significant
fixed costs and almost no variable costs.  So, if  you only expect to sell
a few copies of a piece of software, it's going to have to be pretty
expensive if you are to break even.

Thanks,
-JP
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Re: [time-nuts] C-Max Receiver Experiment

[Justin Pinnix]

Update -

I attempted to look at the analog signal.  I looked at the output of the
crystal.  With the scope's low-pass filter turned on I was able to see a
very weak sine wave with a period of roughly 15us.  It was too weak for any
analysis.

http://www.fuzzythinking.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/60khz.png

I also looked at the demodulator out.  This is a much larger amplitude
signal, though it has already been rectified.  However, I was able to see
good correlation between it (blue) and the TCON output (yellow)

http://www.fuzzythinking.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/dem_out.png

Most importantly, I've been reading up on the subject and have adjusted my
expectations.  I didn't realize that frequency measurements (like those
done by the HP117 and Fluke 207) don't actually use the timecode part of
the signal.

Page 11 of http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1383.pdf tells me that WWVB is
3-4 orders of magnitude better than WWV for frequency measurements, but
that the two services' time uncertainties overlap and WWVB is at best 1
order better.  As a matter of fact, my measurements of the C-MAX line up
with the top end of that estimate (and Tom's :-)).

I'm still planning on capturing a long set of timings, but I need to do
some hardware mods first.

Thanks,
-Justin

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 1:04 PM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>  Hi David,
>> Thanks for pointing out the problem with the figures in my webpage.  I
>> have
>> fixed it.  I'm going to attempt to capture the analog signal by probing
>> the
>> QOut pin.
>>
>
> The updated images make the effects clearer.  It will be interesting to
> see the image capture.
>
>
>  Good point about "precision" - it's all relative.  This is an extension of
>> a previous project of mine - a clock I built around an LPro.  Setting it
>> to
>> the Thunderbolt is a bit of a pain and I was hoping to build in the C-Max
>> to make it more "fire and forget".  I was hoping for a time signal within
>> several microseconds of UTC without the need of an outdoor antenna. Like
>> most of my projects, the journey is more interesting than the destination,
>> so even if I don't accomplish that goal I'm still having fun.  Embedding a
>> consumer GPS is probably the more practical solution.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Justin
>>
>
> Microseconds, no.  Milliseconds perhaps.  But sometimes nothing at all
> depending on the time of day and season of the year etc. etc.  Let's hear
> more about the project as it progresses.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David
> --
> SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
> Web:  http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email:  david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
>
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Re: [time-nuts] C-Max Receiver Experiment

[Justin Pinnix]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 1:54 AM, David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Nuts,
>>
>> I recently picked up a C-Max evaluation kit from SparkFun to see if this
>> $10 board could be used as a precision timing source.  The short answer is
>> no.  The long answer is available at:
>> http://www.fuzzythinking.com/?**page_id=29.
>>
>> It was a fun experiment and a great excuse to play with test equipment :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -JP
>>
>
> Thanks for posting that, Justin, it was most interesting, and the
> reference to Brooke Clarke's page, which I did not know.
>
> It would be interesting to know what the analogue signal looks like, as
> many pieces of electrical and electronic equipment can radiate
> significantly on those frequencies.  I expect you optimised the signal,
> though, as you've mentioned it.
>
> Are you sure the images are all correct?  To me, your Fig 2 and Fig 3
> images look identical, as do Fig 6 and Fig 7.
>
> "Precision" - well, that depends, doesn't it?  Perhaps more precise than a
> very poor Internet connection?  Better than no Internet connection at all!
> Certainly not GPS level.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>

Hi David,
Thanks for pointing out the problem with the figures in my webpage.  I have
fixed it.  I'm going to attempt to capture the analog signal by probing the
QOut pin.

Good point about "precision" - it's all relative.  This is an extension of
a previous project of mine - a clock I built around an LPro.  Setting it to
the Thunderbolt is a bit of a pain and I was hoping to build in the C-Max
to make it more "fire and forget".  I was hoping for a time signal within
several microseconds of UTC without the need of an outdoor antenna.  Like
most of my projects, the journey is more interesting than the destination,
so even if I don't accomplish that goal I'm still having fun.  Embedding a
consumer GPS is probably the more practical solution.

Thanks,
-Justin
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Re: [time-nuts] C-Max Receiver Experiment

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Brent,

I actually saw that warning partway through the experiment.  I disconnected
it and didn't get any measurable difference.  So, I put it back - it makes
it easier to see what's going on :-)

Based on several suggestions here, I think the next thing I'll try is
capturing actual event arrival times.  That will allow me to plot a
histogram and let the experiment run all night (and day) to take advantage
of different local times.  Plus it gives me an excuse to buy (or build) a
universal counter.

Thanks,
-Justin (AJ4MJ)

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:00 PM, KD0GLS  wrote:

> Justin,
>
> A while back, I did some crude experiments with the C-Max CME6005 IC which
> is, I believe, used in that evaluation module. If memory serves, there were
> some rather severe restrictions documented in either the datasheet or an
> application note regarding the loading on the TCO/TCON pins. As I recall,
> it recommended a very minimal load (much less than what an LED might draw)
> and to not use the TCO and TCON outputs simultaneously. They claimed
> violating these recommendations would interfere with the receiver's
> operation, although I find it hard to believe. I'm certainly not suggesting
> this explains your results, only that you might want to look into it.
>
> Regards,
> Brent
>
> On Oct 30, 2011, at 16:09, Justin Pinnix  wrote:
>
> > Nuts,
> >
> > I recently picked up a C-Max evaluation kit from SparkFun to see if this
> > $10 board could be used as a precision timing source.  The short answer
> is
> > no.  The long answer is available at:
> > http://www.fuzzythinking.com/?page_id=29 .
> >
> > It was a fun experiment and a great excuse to play with test equipment
> :-)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -JP
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[time-nuts] C-Max Receiver Experiment

[Justin Pinnix]

Nuts,

I recently picked up a C-Max evaluation kit from SparkFun to see if this
$10 board could be used as a precision timing source.  The short answer is
no.  The long answer is available at:
http://www.fuzzythinking.com/?page_id=29 .

It was a fun experiment and a great excuse to play with test equipment :-)

Thanks,
-JP
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Re: [time-nuts] List Threading Behavior?

[Justin Pinnix]

Looking at recent instances of thread-breaking tells a different story:

X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929
Thunderbird/7.0.1
 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.21)
Gecko/20110830 Thunderbird/3.1.13

While these mailers are all running on Microsoft OSes, none of them are
actual Microsoft products.

Thanks,
-JP
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Doug Calvert
wrote:

> On 10/25/2011 05:10 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 01:29:07 -0400
>> Doug Calvert>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>Am I the only one whose email client has trouble putting threads
>>> together for this list? All of my other lists appear to be working
>>> correctly. Am I missing something?
>>>
>>
>> This is not an issue of the mailinglist itself, but of mail clients
>> that do not conform to the RFC's. Especially webclients and MS stuff
>> are known to miss the "In-Reply-To" and "References" header fields
>> which are needed to get threading working correctly.
>>
>> Ie if someone with an incorrectly working mailclient replies to a
>> mail you will get a "split" thread, because the In-Reply-To field is
>> missing.
>>
>>
>>Attila Kinali
>>
>>  Thanks that makes sense. Most of the other mailing lists I am on are
> mainly populated by n*x users.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Neutrino timing

[Justin Pinnix]

If I'm doing my math right, the supernova is a 2.03e-9
discrepancy(3/24/365/168000).  CERN's discrepancy was 2.464e-5
(60e-9/2.435e-3) That's nearly 4 orders of magnitude more dramatic.
Thanks,
-JP
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Hal Murray wrote:

> > Sounds like a good excuse to build a moon base...
>
> Think big.  The experiment has been done over 168,000 light years.
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_1987A
>
> The neutrinos got here 3 hours before the light.  (Empty space isn't really
> empty.  The dielectric constant slows the light down a tiny tiny bit.)
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Sneaky Errors

[Justin Pinnix]

The thunderbolts produce status information and error estimates about how
they are doing.  If you are willing to trust that, you can remove the one
that is falling out of tolerance.  If you aren't willing to trust that, then
I'm pretty sure you'll need a third frequency standard to compare each to.

Thanks,
-JP
On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:46 PM, David VanHorn  wrote:

>
> I have two thunderbolts, set up so that I can switch over to the backup
> unit if the primary fails.
> All is well with that, but what could I do to detect a less obvious
> failure, like 9.99 MHz output?
>
> If they disagree, I don't know how to resolve which is correct.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Top Posting Clarified - Hopefully

[Justin Pinnix]

You guys should get out of the dark ages and use a modern mail client.  Then
it won't matter!

I won't name names, but the one I use is popular, has a web front end, keeps
all of my mail around in a searchable format (no need to waste your time
generating a word doc), squashes out quoted fragments of the previous
messages (puts them behind a -Show Quoted Text- link), and rhymes with
"female".  It took me a while to figure out what you guys were even
complaining about :-)

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:38 AM, Scott Stansbury  wrote:

> On May 25, 2011, at 3:27 AM, Ken , VK7KRJ wrote:
> > Why is this "extra repetition" a problem when top-posting, but not a
> problem when bottom posting
>
>
> The protocol behind bottom posting is to edit the prior text, so that you
> are only incorporating, and responding to, the appropriate text.
>
> Top posting on top of layers of previous posts is just lazy.
>
>
> Scott...
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Archiving Data

[Justin Pinnix]

Brooke,

I disagree.  Hard drive sizes have done nothing but soar over the last
30 years.  So, even if you have to replace them every 10 years, you
only have to buy 1/10th the number of drives every decade.

This is exactly my data retention strategy.  Every time I get a new
computer, I copy my data files from the old one to the new one.  I
still have stuff on my hard drive from the 1980s, but it takes up such
a tiny amount of space I don't care.  I have to back it up, of course,
but I back up to another hard drive (stored offline and offsite).
I've tried tapes before, but the only thing that can "keep up" with
drive growth and speed is another drive.

Paper - I lose that stuff within a matter of hours of getting it!  :-)

Thanks,
-JP

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> Hi Perry:
>
> It's a real problem.  Modern movies are edited and in some cases sent to
> theaters as digital data.  Last I heard the specified lifetime of data on a
> hard disk is 10 years (although probably much longer).  It's very expensive
> to transfer data every ten years to a new drive.  Modern movie prints are
> archival, but some earlier color movies are not.  I've heard that a small
> number of CD - DVD brands/models are archival quality.
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Problems with Garmin Nuvi

[Justin Pinnix]

I have a Nuvi and I love it.  I have used it all over the country and
it has gotten me where I need to go.  Is it wrong sometimes?  Sure,
but it's wrong a lot less than I am in a strange city.  Also, I don't
care if it is wrong in my own neighborhood - I know where everything
is there.  It stays in my glove box unless I am traveling or in an
unfamiliar part of town.

I still think its amazing that you can fit very detailed maps for the
whole country into a device the size of a deck of cards.  You couldn't
fit that many Rand McNallys in your car!

On Friday, December 31, 2010, John Green  wrote:
> When a product is sold giving the distinct impression that it is to be
> used to navigate to street addresses, then it should be accurate for
> the use it is sold for. If the street addresses aren't going to be
> accurate, they should just leave them off. Tonight, I tried to use my
> Nuvi and it didn't even have my current position in the display. Since
> I already knew the way home, I just turned it off. The more I use it,
> the less I like it. I suspect this will end up on eBay soon.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Truetime dc 468 goes sat rcvr simulator basics working

[Justin Pinnix]

Paul,

That is very much appreciated.  I have one of these boxes.  I didn't realize
that the signal was no longer being broadcast, so at this point I'm all for
whatever hacks will make it useful.

Thanks,
-JP

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 5:55 PM, paul swed  wrote:

> Well I think this puts me in the dangerous zone of time nuttery.
>
> I had posted to the group about a month ago about a Austron 2201 gps rcvr
> and any documents anyone might have. Russell responded and sent me some
> great documents on the Austron.
>
> In a phone conversation with Russell we started talking about the old
> Truetime dc 468s. Kind of got me thinking. I have been able to design a
> small single chip goes timecode simulator to drive these older clocks.
>
> The dc 468 was always quite attractive with their panelplex 7 segment
> displays. Have re-purposed the boxes for several other projects on occasion
> using the supply nd the displays.
>
> I find the dc 468s at flea markets still for $5 in the northeast US.
> Generally no converter assembly though it doesn't matter since the GOES
> timecode signals been gone since 2005.
>
> At the moment the software fits in a small parrallax SXB micro. Its written
> in basic language and compiled. Runs very fast with a 20 Mhz clock.
>
> At this stage the unit puts out a manchester encoded timecode signal and is
> injected at the very first data stage on the decoder. You have to do this
> to
> get the PLLs to lock so things decode correctly. I have not attached a GPS
> time signal to it yet and associated time decoding to automatically sync
> the
> clock. That will be the next item. But I suspect this will be a bit ugly.
> Like sync once per day type of behavior.
>
> Another interesting thing I discovered in this project. That the GOES 100
> Hz
> timecode actually transports a very stable frequency reference. So you need
> a pretty good 100 hz source. What this means is the clock will only drift
> as
> much as that source drifts. Thats why I think a single sync 1 time per day
> is most likely just fine. Additionally the internal 10 MC clock locks to
> the
> 100 HZ and is pretty stable. (Ok now I am in trouble. What on earth does
> that statement mean in this group?)
>
> As with the Loran simulator I will share the information with the group as
> it shapes up.
> For now I need to make sure the basic software actually is correctly
> keeping
> time.
>
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Synchronizing to WWV

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Don,

I think the Heathkit clock was more sophisticated.  It read the 100hz data
code and automatically set the hour, minute, seconds, and date.  It did all
of this using an on-board microprocessor.  I've never owned one, so I'm
basing my information on the blurb here:
http://wd6cmu.antennalaunchers.com/gpsclock.htm

The NBS 668 method is a more manual process.  First, you set your clock to
within a second by listening to the "at the tone" message and pushing the
button when you hear the beep.  Then, you make small +/- phase adjustments
it until the 1Khz "tick" pulse appears where you expect it to be on the
scope.

Thanks,
-JP
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Don Latham  wrote:

> Is this the basis document for the Heathkit Most Accurate Clock???
> Don
>
> - Original Message - From: "Justin Pinnix" <
> jus...@fuzzythinking.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:40 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Synchronizing to WWV
>
>
>   Hi Nuts,
>>
>> Most of you have probably seen this before, but I ran across a great
>> 1975-vintage paper on how to synchronize your clocks and frequency
>> standards
>> to WWV's HF broadcasts.  The equipment needs are very basic - a clock, a
>> radio, and an oscilloscope.  The procedure is simple and far more reliable
>> than the tone-detection method I attempted earlier.
>>
>> NBS Technical Note 668 - The Use of National Bureau of Standards High
>> Frequency Broadcasts for Time and Frequency Calibrations (
>> http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/453.pdf)
>>
>> Yes, I realize that GPS is literally a million times more accurate, but if
>> all you need is milliseconds,  this will do the job cheaper than a GPSDO
>> or
>> it could serve as a backup.  Plus it's a lot of fun to stare at the
>> traces.
>> They are quite hypnotic.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -JP
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>>
>>
>
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[time-nuts] Synchronizing to WWV

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Nuts,

Most of you have probably seen this before, but I ran across a great
1975-vintage paper on how to synchronize your clocks and frequency standards
to WWV's HF broadcasts.  The equipment needs are very basic - a clock, a
radio, and an oscilloscope.  The procedure is simple and far more reliable
than the tone-detection method I attempted earlier.

NBS Technical Note 668 - The Use of National Bureau of Standards High
Frequency Broadcasts for Time and Frequency Calibrations (
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/453.pdf)

Yes, I realize that GPS is literally a million times more accurate, but if
all you need is milliseconds,  this will do the job cheaper than a GPSDO or
it could serve as a backup.  Plus it's a lot of fun to stare at the traces.
They are quite hypnotic.

Thanks,
-JP
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Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference

[Justin Pinnix]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:33 AM, Mike S  wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 12/11/2009, gandal...@aol.com wrote...
>
> Unfortunately, that's not really the way it is.
>>
>
> That's opinion, stated as fact.


That all depends on what your definition of "is" is :-)
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Re: [time-nuts] Beginner's time reference

[Justin Pinnix]

I'm hearing a lot of recommendations for types of oscillators, but noone has
asked the question - what is the desired performance?

For me, I wanted a clock that stays within a second of UTC for a year.  I'm
pretty sure the LPRO I bought will exceed that, (though I guess I won't know
for another 12 months).  Of course, I needed a way to evaluate what I built,
so I also picked up a Thunderbolt.  What was that about a tar pit? :-)

I built my own clock/counter circuit, but it was a lot of work.  I see a lot
of Datum 9100s for sale on eBay for under $50.  Has anyone tried out one of
those?

I still need to write up my circuit, but it is similar to (but not based on)
this:  http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MICRO/CLOCK/

Thanks,
-JP

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:42 AM, John Miles  wrote:

> > Bill,
> >
> > he was planning to spend 100 USD on a used Rubidium, I think a Cs is way
> > over his budget ;-)
>
> Luck has more to do with that than money.  My cheapest cesium standard, at
> $500, also turned out to be the only one out of three with a healthy tube.
>  You have to plan on buying a few turkeys.
>
> If you're shopping for a cesium standard on eBay especially, where the
> sellers don't tend to know what they're selling or how to test it, it makes
> sense to bid low and wait until you get lucky.
>
> > But I agree that a Rubidium has a shorter life span and if you get one
> > for 100 USD on eBay, I would expect it to be "worn out" already.
>
> The LPRO-101 I bought from China recently for ~$100 is in good shape (it's
> the dotted blue trace in the plot I posted earlier, measured against the
> aforementioned $500 Cs.)  It locks up quickly, and its lamp voltage is right
> in the middle of the normal range.  Others have had good results from the
> same seller, so I think they're actually pretty safe.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Chooses for a desktop/server NTP external 1PPS reference

[Justin Pinnix]

Yes.  I just built one.  It was an original design based around the parts I
could scrounge.  My cost was around $200 and it took me about 2 months to
complete.  I don't know of any kits or any commercial units available in
that price range.

But, remember that Rubidium just gets you a stable oscillator.  You still
have to have a time source to set your clock from.

Thanks,
-JP

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Alexander Sack  wrote:


> (btw is there such a thing as a desktop rubidium atomic clock with 1 PPS?)
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted desperately - LS-120 disk drive

[Justin Pinnix]

David,

You probably know this already, but you can walk into any electronics store
and buy a 16GB USB thumb drive for 20 dollars that will hold the equivalent
of 136 LS-120 floppies.  You might be better served by moving your
collection to a more modern media.

Remember that magnetic media (disks, tapes) have a limited shelf life.  In
particular, I've had a lot of problem with floppies written with one drive
not being readable on another.

Thanks,
-JP
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:42 AM, David C. Partridge <
david.partri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Internal 3.5" LS-120 Superdisk floppy drive (ideally with black front, but
> ...).   I'm after one in the standard 3.5" floppy drive size, not laptop.
>
> The one in my main system just died :-(.  I have a lot of stuff on LS-120
> disks, and while I can read them on a system in another room and network
> the
> files it is rather a PITA (plus it is probably only a matter of time until
> that one dies too).
>
> I will remove the dead one and look for any obvious problems, but I'm not
> optimistic.
>
> I am in the UK not the USA by the way.
>
> Please respond off-list.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted desperately - LS-120 disk drive

[Justin Pinnix]

The procedure you describe is useful for a retrieving data from a drive
where some files have been corrupted rendering the system non-bootable. But
NO operating system (not even MacOS) can cure a drive that has suffered a
complete hardware failure.  It's just not possible.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 9:13 AM, ALAN MELIA wrote:

> Sorry Dave my mail irrelevant.motto READ THE EMAIL PROPERLY !!
> I though you were talking about a floppy sized HD!!
> DOH
> Alan G3NYK
>
>
> --- On Fri, 4/12/09, David C. Partridge 
> wrote:
>
> > From: David C. Partridge 
> > Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted desperately - LS-120 disk drive
> > To: teksco...@yahoogroups.com, hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com,
> "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> > Date: Friday, 4 December, 2009, 13:42
>  > Internal 3.5" LS-120 Superdisk floppy
> > drive (ideally with black front, but
> > ...).   I'm after one in the standard 3.5"
> > floppy drive size, not laptop.
> >
> > The one in my main system just died :-(.  I have a lot
> > of stuff on LS-120
> > disks, and while I can read them on a system in another
> > room and network the
> > files it is rather a PITA (plus it is probably only a
> > matter of time until
> > that one dies too).
> >
> > I will remove the dead one and look for any obvious
> > problems, but I'm not
> > optimistic.
> >
> > I am in the UK not the USA by the way.
> >
> > Please respond off-list.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Amatuer Radio Information

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Mike,

I'll reply to the list because others will probably give you a similar
reply.

First of all, thank you for your interest in amateur radio.  It's often
described as a hobby with lots of sub-hobbies, so chances are you can find
something that will pique your interest for a long time.

Don't sweat the tests.  Anyone on this list likely already possesses the
technical know-how to pass it.  Even if you don't, it's mostly ohm's law and
a few regulations.

The ARRL is a national organization that supports ham radio.  They have a
section on their web site devoted to new hams.  You should take a look at
the articles here: http://www.arrl.org/newham/, especially the "choosing a
radio" one.  After you read it, you'll see why we can't simply recommend a
single radio :-)

Probably the single best source of support for ham radio is your local radio
club.  There, you will find a network of people who have a wide array of
interests in the hobby and would love to share their interest with you.
Many clubs offer testing and even classes if you want to go that route.
Most importantly, there's usually someone in the club who has a used radio
for sale that you can get started with.  I love buying used equipment
because it holds its value.  Also, if you purchase from an individual, you
can go try it out in their shack before you take it home.  That way you know
it works.  The ARRL web site has a listing of local clubs and testing sites.

Likewise, I would recommend you stay away from the popular Internet ham
radio chat boards.  While there are some "good guys" on there, there are
also a number of cretins who just want to show how smart they think they
are.  Many of them dispense faulty advice, are rude to newcomers, and are
generally poor ambassadors of the hobby.  This is in stark contrast to the
people I have met on the air and in the local clubs, most of whom are open,
friendly, and supportive.

If you have any more questions, please contact me off-list.

Thanks and welcome aboard!
73 de AJ4MJ

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:37 AM, J. Mike Needham wrote:

> Greetings:
>
>
>
> I have noticed that some of you have call signs for Amateur Radio and I
> decided that I would like to get into that again.  Several years ago I was
> looking into it and was given some modified military surplus radio
> equipment, one such item was a transceiver.  Unfortunately, when we moved
> from the location that I lived in at that time, we could not take the radio
> equipment with us because it was vacuum tube based and very heavy and the
> moving company of course was charging by the pound.
>
>
>
> I discovered where I can take my exam locally and would like to study up a
> little as it has been years.  I understand that I no longer have to do
> Morse
> code as part of it, but still would like to find resources on study
> materials and practice tests.
>
>
>
> As far as equipment is concerned, I am on a tight budget and so it will
> likely be eBay and Craigslist, but I am not sure what I need these days.  I
> have computers a- plenty and basically can use advice on what kind of
> transceiver to get, what are the best brands and what I need for an antenna
> - I live in an apartment and want to do this with a base-station radio
> setup
> as opposed to a mobile.  I need an antenna that would be the least
> obtrusive
> and not mounted in a permanent fashion to the building.  I also need
> information on what kind of lightning protection and etc would be good.
>
>
>
> Thanks - I know this is "off topic" but I do plan to keep perfect time with
> my station as well J
>
>
>
> My real email address appears below, so if someone wants to offer help "off
> list" I welcome someone to write me and of course if you live locally to
> Lawrence, I would love to meet in person and exchange ideas etc.
>
>
>
> J. Mike Needham
>
> iain_ni...@att.net
>
> Lawrence, Kansas USA
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] OT - GPS and North

[Justin Pinnix]

Hi Rex,

Sounds like a neat application.  100 meters might be a bit long for RS-232.
I was taught that 50 feet is the limit for 9600bps.  You may need to use
RS-422 (balanced version of 232), low capacitance cable, or a lower baud
rate.  Since you're a ham, you could also do it wirelessly over UHF packet.
You might even be able to use existing APRS hardware, provided it leaves you
enough significant digits.

73 de AJ4MJ

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Rex Moncur  wrote:

> Given that we cannot do it with one GPS in a fixed position I would like to
> get people's ideas on whether there is a reasonable cost way (say less than
> $2K) to do it with two GPSs to get within a say half a degree.
>
>
> The application is to find azimuth headings for Amateur radio microwave or
> lightwave experiments. One cannot normally do star shots due to either day
> light or clouds.
>
> Let us assume that you can run the two GPS's over a baseline of 100 meters.
> At present I can get to within about plus/minus two degrees by walking an
> inexpensive handheld GPS over a baseline of 100 meters but I want to do
> better than that. For the hopefully more accurate measurement I would place
> one GPS and antenna at the microwave dish or lightwave transmitter and the
> other would be set up 100 meters away roughly in the direction one needed
> to
> beam. When a bearing was found one could either readjust the position of
> the
> remote GPS antenna to improve the accuracy or just allow for any error by
> beaming by this amount to the GPS unit.
>
> Let us  assume that both GPS antennas are in a fixed location and the
> results can be averaged over say 30 minutes to improve the accuracy.  I
> assume also that many of the errors due to propagation would cancel over
> such a short path.  The data from both GPSs would be fed to a laptop over
> say RS232 line which I hope would work for 100 meters (perhaps 50 meters
> each way if necessary).  The Laptop would have software to process that
> data
> and provide a bearing between the two antennas. Can anyone comment on:
>
> (a) the likely accuracy of such a system
> (b) whether there is any software out there that can do this.
> (c) the recommended GPS units for this application.
> (d) whether there is something one could purchase as a complete package at
> a
> reasonable cost (ie less than $2k)
>
> 73 Rex VK7MO
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of iov...@inwind.it
> Sent: Monday, 23 November 2009 8:08 AM
> To: time-nuts
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - GPS and North
>
>  Thanks all.
>
> The conclusion seems to be that an ordinary and stationary GPS receiver
> with
> a single
> omnidiretional antenna knows very well where satellites are relative to the
> true North,
> and where the true North is relative to satellites, but doesn't know (more
> precisely:
> can't indicate, as it lacks another reference) where satellites or the
> North
> actually are.
> Eventually this appears quite obvious.
>
> Antonio I8IOV
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re: Reference oscillator accuracy)

[Justin Pinnix]

Contrary to popular belief, us pilots do know how to fly without GPS.  I
have never seen an IFR aircraft with a GPS that didn't also have a VOR
receiver.  Any VFR aircraft can be navigated using the Mk I eyeball.

IFR certified GPSes have integrity monitoring.  So, if the signal gets
jammed or there is another system failure, the approach should be aborted
and the flight switched to another navigation means.

This LORAN debate is all well and good, but most of the general aviation
fleet does not have LORAN receivers.  They haven't been manufactured in
years.

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Didier Juges  wrote:

> Not all GPSs are on airplanes, but those I am really worried about are.
>
> I don't care if the GPS receiver in my cell phone stops working in some
> locations, it does not work everywhere to begin with (like in the house, I
> can't use it to find the bathroom in the dark...), but I worry that the one
> guiding a missile or a fighter plane might not work. I also worry that the
> one abord a large passenger aircraft might not work. Most of those that are
> stationary or move on the ground or on water, I am not too worried about.
>
> For instance, the local garbage pickup people use GPS to locate the houses
> of customers who have unusual (large or unsafe, or possibly contaminating)
> garbage to pickup. I have had a dead TV on the side of my house for 3
> weeks,
> three times I called and 3 times they missed it because the GPS guided them
> to my front door (my normal mailing address), but I live on a corner lot
> and
> the garbage pickup is on the side of the house, by the garage. If that
> particular GPS receiver stopped working and forced the employees to look
> around, it would not bother me (the TV ended up in the trash can. After 3
> times and 3 weeks, I assumed I had done a reasonable attempt at avoiding
> putting too much lead in the garbage, and it had to go.)
>
> Didier
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> > [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 7:03 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The Demise of LORAN (was Re:
> > Reference oscillator accuracy)
> >
> > Francesco Ledda wrote:
> > > Considering that the GPS antenna in aircrafts is mounted on top of
> > > fuselage, and that its radiation pattern is upward, it seems that a
> > > ground jammer will have an uphill battle.
> >
> > Not all GPS receivers is sitting on flying airplanes. Far from it.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
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