Re: [time-nuts] WWVB d-psk-r down conversion method...
According to the NIST documentation there were a couple of motivations... 1. BPSK is easier to receive in high noise environments so they say. 2. The new format supports sending additional information in addition to the time of day. The other messages are interleaved into each minute and they take a long time to receive. Mike Harpe On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Alexander Pummer wrote: > there is an interesting side effect with that phase modulation: in case > the crystal filter is "narrow enough" --to use for the old AM format-- the > phase change creates an additional AM modulation, if you take in > consideration that effect by the decoding the modulation, you could recover > the time information "despite" of the presence of the PSK. > Question: as fare as I am informed there is no chip/system available to > correctly decode the new signal form, what was the purpose of the whole > modulation format change? > The old AM format was happy with cca 200Hz bandwidth to recover the time > information, which was utilized in many professional receivers, which used > a crystal filter for 60kHz, for the PSK format the required bandwidth is at > least five times wider, so crystal filter would be problematic and much > more costly, the higher required bandwidth brings also more noise > actually where is the advantage of the new modulation scheme? > 73 > Alex > > On 9/23/2014 9:16 AM, Burt I. Weiner wrote: > >> Charles, >> >> If I recall correctly, the original point of the d-psk-r was to cause the >> clocks to again read the correct time, not maintain their use as a >> frequency standard. I have a Symmetricom 8170 that I used to use only as a >> clock to tell the time of day. Since WWVB's addition of the PSK coding, >> it's only good to watch the pretty blinken lights. >> >> Burt, K6OQK >> >> >> >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB BPSK patent status
If you run it through Google Translate it comes out in English but without the illustrations. Mike Harpe On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 10:03 PM, Alexander Pummer wrote: > > also there is one FPGA based system already available unfortunately the > description is in German : http://www.cadt.de/dieter/dcf/ > Praezisionsfrequenzmessungen.pdf > > > On 8/8/2014 5:33 PM, Alex Pummer wrote: > >> there was a Swiss ingenieur who designed and published a receiver design >> for the DCF77 which has the same modulation format, also there was a Finish >> design a few years ego also published, therefore, that American company, >> which is promising the chip for a while but instead delivering the chip >> changes it's name... has to be very careful with patent writing. >> 73 >> Alex >> >> On 8/8/2014 4:44 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> >>> Without having seen the specific patent, what >>> worries me is that there is a trend these days >>> to write blanket patents that say you can't >>> build any black box that, for example, receives >>> this format, no matter how it works. >>> They don't have to prove what is >>> in your FPGA code. They then can shut down any >>> competition with such a weak patent unless the >>> competition has deep pockets for a lawyer. If >>> they can prove you willfully infringed (whatever >>> that means), they get triple damages. If you >>> do any kind of patent search, do not keep any >>> records or tell anyone about it. >>> >>> Possibly you could make the FPGA code available >>> on the internet and have the end user be the >>> infringer. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure >>> if this would get you off the hook. Maybe >>> they can hang their hat on the digital copyright >>> law (DCMA?) , in which case you become a criminal too. >>> >>> Rick Karlquist N6RK >>> >>> On 8/8/2014 3:24 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mike: >>>> >>>> Do you have any patent numbers. >>>> >>>> Have Fun, >>>> >>>> Brooke Clarke >>>> http://www.PRC68.com >>>> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html >>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html >>>> >>>> Mike Harpe wrote: >>>> >>>>> >From my reading of the archives and research it appears that the >>>>> design for >>>>> a BPSK WWVB receiver probably has a patent conflict. >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this a rehash of the old Heathkit patent on radio clocks that >>>>> held >>>>> back their adoption for years? >>>>> >>>>> I have begun work on a BPSK receiver for WWVB using an FPGA. >>>>> >>>>> Someone should look into why the NIST did this at all since the >>>>> receiver >>>>> design got a patent slapped on it right away. >>>>> >>>>> Mike Harpe, N4PLE >>>>> Sellersburg, IN >>>>> ___ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ___ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB BPSK patent status
>From my reading of the archives and research it appears that the design for a BPSK WWVB receiver probably has a patent conflict. Isn't this a rehash of the old Heathkit patent on radio clocks that held back their adoption for years? I have begun work on a BPSK receiver for WWVB using an FPGA. Someone should look into why the NIST did this at all since the receiver design got a patent slapped on it right away. Mike Harpe, N4PLE Sellersburg, IN ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 100, Issue 95
So doesn't this put us back to the same situation as when Heathkit got a patent for their "Most Accurate Clock" kit that used the timecode from the HF signals on WWV and WWVH? No one wanted to make radio clocks because of the patent. Has there been any talk about how available the chip will be? My attitude is that I'll build whatever I want to for myself. Mike Harpe, N4PLE >> I realize this modulation scheme change is perceived as a sensitive >> subject. But, really, since the full scheme is fully disclosed no >> company has a monopoly on its use. > > Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of > the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. > > > My question is, will this new scheme >> offer enough advantages to merit the production of commercial equipment >> to use it, and ultimately whether low-cost equipment will be >> sufficiently advantageous to merit its design and production in volume >> like the typical WWVB digital clocks prevalent today. >> ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New to list
Right. I know that. I should have said that I'm going to abandon the CME-8000 solution in favor of BPSK assuming they actually implement it. Mike Harpe On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Based on a quick look - the CME8000 isn't going to be much of a help with > the new modulation. It will do ok with the old AM format. > > Bob > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Mike Harpe > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:14 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New to list > > Hi! > > At this point I'm mostly just trying to learn about the new signal. I > play around with microcontrollers and have always wanted to build a > WWVB clock. I spent a good amount of time with the CME-8000 board > before getting frustrated with it and putting it aside for awhile. I > found out about the BPSK experiment when I was looking around for help > with the CME-8000 and I figured that would be the way to go now. > > Mike Harpe > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:08 PM, paul swed wrote: >> Mike >> Welcome to the list. There have been numbers of tests since March. >> Ultimately a more detailed specification was released thats been helpful > in >> understanding the new modulation. >> In various threads I have mentioned what I have been doing. At the moment >> modifying a spectracom 8163 seems to be a way to allow other rcvrs to > work. >> Not at all optimum or even close. But at least seems to have worked. >> I am semi familiar with the chips and they are a complete rcvr. But really >> do not allow direct access to the signals easily. Either you grab it past >> the 60Khz crystal or at the output of the diode detector by removing the >> LPF cap. Then you have to amplify detect and feed that back for AGC. >> Something that can be done. I have not had time. >> So a question for you is what are you attempting to do? >> Regards >> Paul >> WB8TSL >> >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Mike Harpe wrote: >> >>> Sorry if this is an FAQ... >>> >>> Has anything else happened with the WWVB BPSK change since the test in >>> March? >>> >>> Also, I would love to correspond with anyone who has worked with the >>> C-MAX CME-8000 boards. >>> >>> Thanks! I'm looking forward to participating. >>> >>> Mike Harpe, N4PLE >>> Sellersburg, IN USA >>> >>> ___ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New to list
Hi! At this point I'm mostly just trying to learn about the new signal. I play around with microcontrollers and have always wanted to build a WWVB clock. I spent a good amount of time with the CME-8000 board before getting frustrated with it and putting it aside for awhile. I found out about the BPSK experiment when I was looking around for help with the CME-8000 and I figured that would be the way to go now. Mike Harpe On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:08 PM, paul swed wrote: > Mike > Welcome to the list. There have been numbers of tests since March. > Ultimately a more detailed specification was released thats been helpful in > understanding the new modulation. > In various threads I have mentioned what I have been doing. At the moment > modifying a spectracom 8163 seems to be a way to allow other rcvrs to work. > Not at all optimum or even close. But at least seems to have worked. > I am semi familiar with the chips and they are a complete rcvr. But really > do not allow direct access to the signals easily. Either you grab it past > the 60Khz crystal or at the output of the diode detector by removing the > LPF cap. Then you have to amplify detect and feed that back for AGC. > Something that can be done. I have not had time. > So a question for you is what are you attempting to do? > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Mike Harpe wrote: > >> Sorry if this is an FAQ... >> >> Has anything else happened with the WWVB BPSK change since the test in >> March? >> >> Also, I would love to correspond with anyone who has worked with the >> C-MAX CME-8000 boards. >> >> Thanks! I'm looking forward to participating. >> >> Mike Harpe, N4PLE >> Sellersburg, IN USA >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New to list
Sorry if this is an FAQ... Has anything else happened with the WWVB BPSK change since the test in March? Also, I would love to correspond with anyone who has worked with the C-MAX CME-8000 boards. Thanks! I'm looking forward to participating. Mike Harpe, N4PLE Sellersburg, IN USA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
