[time-nuts] new longwave time service planned in India

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hi,

Apparently India plans to build two longwave transmitters for a national
time signal service:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/coming-huge-towers-to-publicise-right-time/article23377284.ece

No technical details such as frequency and modulation are given, nor whether
the carrier will also serve as a reference frequency.

They do mention involvement of the German EFR company, who operate three
transmitters between 129 and 139 kHz for remotely controlling equipment
and broadcasting time, using 200 baud FSK. One might speculate similar
signals will be used for the new India service.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)

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[time-nuts] European grid phase heading back

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hello,

It looks like the European (ENTSOE) mains grid phase is now heading back
to what it was before the large deviation of February.
See my measurements at 
http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains-2018.html
The ENTSOE website doesn't mention this correction yet, other than as a
future "step 2".

One can wonder how useful this correction is, though: just last weekend,
daylight savings time started in Europe, so most mains-driven clocks have
probably been manually set to the correct time on that occasion. Those will
soon be some 5 minutes fast...

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hello all,

Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:

  http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains-2018.html

This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
cycle using NTP for reference.

Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)



On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuec...@avm.de wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
> 
> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
> 
> Cheers
> Detlef Schücker
> DD4WV
> 
> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
> 
> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
> 
> > Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk...@arcor.de>
> > An: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
> > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
> > Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
> > >
> > >> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
> > >> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
> > >> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
> > > Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
> > future discussions...
> > >
> > Does that help?
> >
> > <
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/38870750440/in/
> > album-72157662535945536/
> >          >
> >
> > Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
> 4Vpp.
> > Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
> > middle of the night after all.
> > They have to catch up.
> >
> > BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
> > weekend
> > I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
> >
> > The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
> > The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
> > so I can enforce
> > quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
> > Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
> >
> > The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
> > the 89441A.
> > One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
> > MTI-260s on
> > my oscillator carrier board.
> >
> > Have a good night,
> > Gerhard
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] TDF (Was Re: RFDO - Experience and questions)

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 05:37:54PM +0100, emmanuel.fuste--- via time-nuts wrote:

> Here you have bulletin H from Observatoire de Paris (responsible for SYRTE 
> and IERS/ICRS,IRTS)
> https://syrte.obspm.fr/tfc/temps/outgoing_data/laboTAF/bulH/
> And here the monitoring of the TDF162 signal from Observatoire de Paris.
> https://syrte.obspm.fr/tfc/temps/outgoing_data/france_inter/

Interesting!

> I was looking for real interest from times-nuts for TDF162 for a long time ! 
> Here we are.

Well, I did post to time-nuts about TDF162's handling of the leapsecond back
in early January, concluding that it was inserted a minute too early.
See https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-January/103083.html
with a more detailed analysis added later at the bottom of 
http://pa3fwm.nl/signals/leapsecond-2016/ .

Unfortunately, a person at CFHM that I managed to contact about this, wasn't
interested in looking at my data and insisted the leapsecond had been handled
correctly.
I don't know who is right; one could argue that TDF's specification is not
totally unambiguous about this point.
All I can say for sure is that it is very odd that TDF transmitted its
23:58 UTC end-of-minute marker one second later than DCF and MSF did (which
otherwise use a rather similar encoding as TDF).

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

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Re: [time-nuts] TDF (Was Re: RFDO - Experience and questions)

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Tue, Mar 07, 2017 at 10:04:45AM +, Iain Young wrote:

> On 07/03/17 03:35, paul swed wrote:
> >Actually as I think about it from the earlier part of the thread. Locking
> >to the carrier with a 2-4 second time constant removes the phase modulation
> >since its only in the first 200 ms. The 0 Phase is 800 ms in length or more
> >for all bits.

As I pointed out before, those 800 ms are not constant 0 phase; during
700 ms more phase modulation data is sent. Only the last 100 ms of each
second are "clean" (and the entire last second of each minute).

> You might want to hold off on those coils. I got up this morning to
> find TDF off air. Hopefully it is just the Tuesday maintenance that is
> over-running, or just extended maintenance

The maintenance window has been moved from the night hours to Tuesday
morning, presumably to save costs now that there's no AM radio program being
transmitted anymore.
Also, tests with reduced power (1100 instead of 1500 kW) will start next week;
see 
http://www.anfr.fr/gestion-des-frequences-sites/signal-horaire/les-tests-du-signal-horaire/
(in French).

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)

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Re: [time-nuts] RFDO - Experience and questions

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Sun, Mar 05, 2017 at 10:42:52PM +, Iain Young wrote:

> That's TDF from France. Their equivalent of WWV/MSF/DCF.

> Average phase and frequency deviation is
> zero over 200msec (see link above for details)

This is not quite correct, since the transmitter does not just carry the
time data (one bit per second, in the first 200 ms of the second), but
also some more data during the next 700 ms of each second.
The latter data is coded in a way which does not guarantee that the phase
or frequency average is zero other than when averaging over the entire
700 ms block.
Then again, I've been told that although there is a nicely defined framing
format, in reality it has only ever transmitted idle frames, so in practice
it's a fixed pattern which repeats every minute and thus could be cancelled
for use as a frequency reference.

I have a live online decoder for TDF's signal at
   http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/tdf/

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

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[time-nuts] leap second too early on TDF timesignal

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

It seems France's TDF timesignal (phase modulation of a 162 kHz carrier,
which until the end of 2016 also carried France Inter radio sound as
amplitude modulation) inserted their leapsecond a minute early.

Like MSF and DCF77, TDF transmits one bit per second, together composing
the exact time at the beginning of the next minute, with a special marker
in the last second of each minute.
This is the data received around the turn of the UTC year, with M denoting
the marker:

 0110001000101 1110101 1 00 010111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
00:57
 0101111000101 0001101 1 00 010111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
00:58
1111000101 1001101 0 00 010111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
00:59
 111000101 000 0 10 110111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
01:00
 0001111000101 100 1 10 110111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
01:01
 0001111000101 010 1 10 110111010001M  ->  17-01-01 
01:02
|  ---   --
|  minute hour
|
`--- leap second announcement bit

Clearly, there's an anomaly in the third of these lines: it has one bit
(and thus one second) more. I've assumed the extra bit is the first one,
since that gives sensible decoding results for the time and date code.

Thus, apparently the leap second was inserted in the 00:58:xx minute (during
which the time code for 00:59 is broadcast); that's in France's time zone,
so 23:58:xx UTC, rather than in the 23:59:xx UTC minute as it should.
Also, the leap second announcement bit was never set.

I then decoded TDF from my recordings of the 2005 and 2008 leap seconds, and
found that also in those, there was no leap second at the appropriate moment
in TDF's timesignal.

Some more details, as well as a view of the entire 0 - 29 MHz radio spectrum
around the leap second, are on my website: 
http://pa3fwm.nl/signals/leapsecond-2016/

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 05:05:37PM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?

Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have it.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/ , one can see that the extra
LORAN signal has been on the air roughly from 16:26 till 17:30 UTC: the
waterfall clearly shows that the total received power around 100 kHz was
higher during that time.

One also sees that just _before_ the start of the "extra" signal, the total
power was _lower_ than the "usual" value, implying that Anthorn (which is
now the strongest signal here) was off-air; it seems to have been on the
air only intermittently between 15:00 and 16:26 UTC.

So whatever it was that happened this afternoon, it wasn't just the switch
on of Lessay (if at all), something was (also) going on at Anthorn...
That might be a hint that the extra signal also came from Anthorn, e.g.
a dual-rate test. But this is of course just speculation.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM



On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:19:29PM -0500, paul swed wrote:
> I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
> My 2 cents from across the ocean.
> 
> The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that Anthorn
> stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years parties
> got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a transmitter
> in some far away place. I know my choice.
> 
> They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
> equal.
> On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
> transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
> running at the same time.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc0...@aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
> > writes:
> >
> > >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
> > >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal
> > >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
> >
> > Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> > trials ?
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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[time-nuts] yesterday's European Loran-C shutdown

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Yesterday I made an SDR recording of the LW/MW spectrum to capture the
shutdown of the European LORAN-C stations. An analysis of that recording
is now available at http://pa3fwm.nl/signals/loran-2015/ .

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
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Re: [time-nuts] Anybody who can record last Loran-C transmissions ?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:01:44PM +, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
> In message <5675ac3c.8020...@aei.ca>, Graham writes:
> 
> >Would you be able to record what you want via the online web SDR at the 
> >Twente University?
> 
> Not really.  That would only give a water-fall.
> 
> What I think should be preserved is the actual raw, unadultered signal on air.

I'm the developer of that WebSDR, and I was already planning to use it to
make some raw signal recordings on New Year's eve.
This is not just to capture the LORAN shutdown, but also the shutdown of a
bunch of medium-wave broadcast stations (from France, Germany and Luxemburg).

My current plan is to record the 0 - 1800 kHz spectrum (output of the ADC,
but low-pass filtered and downsampled) for at least a couple of minutes
(but possibly more) around "interesting" times such as midnight local time
and midnight UTC.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for an old french disertation

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 08:12:30PM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:

 If anyone has an idea where and how i could get a copy (in any form)
 of 
 
 Mécanismes non linéaires dans les résonateurs à quartz:
 théorie, expériences et applications métrologiques 
 par Jean-Jacques Gagnepain, 1972

The French national library has a copy:
  http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb359121237/PUBLIC
and there's a button on that page (Acheter une reproduction) to buy
a paper copy or a scan.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk de Boer

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Re: [time-nuts] HBG keeps transmitting...

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 11:55:26PM +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote:
 Pieter, please, would you be so kind as to share, for example, the last 60
 seconds file?

At present I only have it in a rather unwieldy form (namely a recording
of the entire 0 - 96 kHz spectrum made with two orthogonal loop antennas).
I could extract an audio file of just HBG from it for you though.
What would you want to use it for?

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk


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Re: [time-nuts] HBG keeps transmitting...

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

I did manage to make a recording of HBG's shutdown this morning.
It was at 07:00:13.2 UTC.
Why precisely then, I don't know...

HNY,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM


On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 01:24:09PM +0100, Azelio Boriani wrote:
 Yes, the HBG has gone... I wasn't able to record the last transmission. If
 I suspected that the shutdown was casual I'd have written an audio time
 lapse with amplitude trigger to let my PC record overnight. My
 WandelGoltermann SPM-3 with the 1500Hz IF output is great at this task,
 but I was sleeping...
 Anyway, happy 2012
 
 On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Marco IK1ODO ik1...@spin-it.com wrote:
 
  At 10:47 01/01/2012, you wrote:
 
  It's gone now (checked 10:35 Hrs GMT 01-01-2012) S'pose clocks that used
  the code will be discarded or the owners will discover how good or bad the
  built-in quartz osc. is.
 
  Happy New Year to all,
 
  John H.
 
 
  Never saw a clock controlled by HBG, only by DCF. Must ask some Swiss
  friend.
 
  HNY - 73 Marco IK1ODO
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] live 50 Hz measurements

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Fri, Jul 01, 2011 at 01:06:31PM -0700, Chris Albertson wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Will Matney xfor...@citynet.net wrote:
 
  . For accuracy sake,
  I'd still compare the line freq. to a standard, but that's just me.
 
 If the computer used for this is also running ntpd the computer's
 clock is disciplined.  How well depends on what ntpd is using as a
 reference clock.   Assuming that some reasonable reference clock is
 being used he could in theory trace the measured frequency  to GPS.

Yes, the measurement computer is running ntpd, getting its time (via
two NTP hops) from GPS.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk


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[time-nuts] live 50 Hz measurements

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hello 50  60 Hz nuts,

The recent discussions here on measuring the mains frequency and
phase prompted me to revive an experiment I set up some 3 years ago.
Live data about the phase and frequency of the 50 Hz mains here in
the Netherlands can now be viewed at:
  http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/lichtnet/

The system consists of a simple circuit to feed the mains signal
safely into an RS232 port (using a neon bulb and a phototransistor;
the schematic is on the web page), and some cobbled-together
software running under Linux.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk


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[time-nuts] leapsecond on long-, medium- and shortwave

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

During the leap second, I recorded 6 parts of the radio spectrum,
containing a few time and frequency stations, and a lot of AM
broadcast stations.
An analysis of these recordings is now here:
  http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/sdr/leapsecond-2008.html

Out of 33 long- and mediumwave broadcasters that transmitted some
sort of time signal (e.g., a few 1 kHz beeps near the top of the
hour), only 17 got the leap second right.
In fact, it turned out that several of the signals are not just off
by the leapsecond, but by several seconds more.
Also, many are off by a fraction of a second, presumably due to delays
between the studio and the transmitter, e.g. via a satellite link.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk

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Re: [time-nuts] Capturing CHU frequency switchover

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 09:01:20AM -0600, Scott Newell wrote:
 What's everyone else planning on recording?

I hope to record roughly the following parts of the radio spectrum:

0 - 300 kHzMSF, HBG, DCF, Loran, longwave broadcast
  700 - 1300 kHz   part of the medium-wave broadcast band
 4950 - 5100 kHz   Russian time signal at 4996 kHz, and perhaps WWV
 5950 - 6250 kHz   short-wave broadcast
 7100 - 7400 kHz   short-wave broadcast, and perhaps CHU
 7730 - 7880 kHz   new CHU frequency, if propagation permits

However, I have some local noise around 59 kHz which will probably
destroy MSF's signal, and I'm pessimistic about propagation from
Canada to here (the Netherlands) for CHU.
And since I will not be at home at the time, it will all have to
run unattended as a cron job, hopefully nothing goes wrong...

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
  

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Re: [time-nuts] NTP Synchronised Nixie Tube Clock

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Tue, May 08, 2007 at 02:09:53PM -0400, Maggie Leber wrote:

 Perhaps my hard core requirement should be restated as no
 transistors rather than no semiconductors. :-)

In that case, I guess my clock also qualifies: it uses neon lamps
as its active components.
The only semiconductors used are simple diodes and two blue LEDs.

See http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock/ .

73, Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM


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Re: [time-nuts] Features of a Precision Clock?

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Fri, Oct 06, 2006 at 03:17:14PM -0500, Bill Hawkins wrote:

 Does anybody in this group look at power line frequency drift?

Not currently, but I did so last year during a few months:
  http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/misc/mains.html


Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)


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Re: [time-nuts] HBG transmitted wrong info during leapsecond

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 12:12:10PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
 
 Looks like the inserted the leapsecond after the minutemarker:
 
 http://phk.freebsd.dk/Leap/20051231_HBG/

I have noticed this error too (and errors in MSF and Deutschlandfunk);
see http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/sdr/leapsecond.html
and my time-nuts posting of January 2nd.
I'm glad that this observation has now been confirmed independently.

B.t.w., on your web page you say there's no detailed description of
HBG's data format available. However, on the German and French pages
there is a detailed pdf description, and by changing the URL an
Englisch version can also be found:
   http://www.metas.ch/en/labors/official-time/pdf/hgb_info_e.pdf
The description given there of how the leap-second is handled, clearly
disagrees with our observations.

Best regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)


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Re: [time-nuts] Happy Leap Second!

[Pieter-Tjerk de Boer]

Hello,

During the leap second, I recorded the (V)LF radio spectrum between
10 and 204 kHz. At my location in Enschede, The Netherlands, this
includes at least four time signal stations:
 - MSF (England) on 60 kHz;
 - HBG (Switzerland) on 75 kHz;
 - DCF77 (Germany) on 77.5 kHz;
 - the French AM broadcast station on 162 kHz which also sends time
   codes as phase modulation.
The first three use amplitude modulation, so their time codes can be
directly read from a waterfall display.
I've put such a waterfall picture with annotations at
   http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/sdr/leapsecond_dec2005.png
(This is a temporary URL; I intend to make a proper webpage later,
with more explanations.)

Best regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk (PA3FWM)


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