Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Does anyone know if there is any organized attempt to save LORAN? -Eric On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Joe Geller joegel...@roadrunner.com wrote: The Coast Guard has always been stretched very thin with limited resources for many missions. The saying was, every year we do more and more with less and less. I served in the late 70s as an electronics technician, EE, and later after Navy flight school, flying air rescue into the 80s. I was lucky to spend some time at two of the research labs, the electronics engineering center (EECEN) in Wildwood, NJ and later the electrical engineering laboratory (EELAB) in Alexandria, VA. At EELAB, I worked in other areas, but a lot of the LORAN work was done there. I remember, even back then, that some of the LORAN guys were searching hobby electronics suppliers to find obsolete chips they needed to keep the LORAN system going. I think those were LORAN C boards too, although not sure. Some new LORAN boards were being developed at the next bench over that used 6502 micros (I got to go to the micro class with the LORAN guys). Flying HU-25A Falcon jets (modified Falcon 200s that we got in 1982) across the Gulf of Mexico for some years, we had a gyro inertial system (which took some 20 minutes to align), LORAN C, and all the standard aviation navigation gear, ADF, VOR, DME, and TACAN. The Collins “RNAV” system used all inputs to develop position information. As I recall, once we got hundreds of miles out into the gulf, all we had left was the inertial system (and paper charts and aluminum slide rules and later my hp-41CV with nav equations, when the RNAV when out). What we would have given for a GPS! Oh well, at least on the bright side, maybe some of those hp clocks will start to show up on the surplus market. There is a picture of the Falcon at: http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=15047 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
AOPA -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Garner Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:44 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Does anyone know if there is any organized attempt to save LORAN? -Eric On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Joe Geller joegel...@roadrunner.com wrote: The Coast Guard has always been stretched very thin with limited resources for many missions. The saying was, every year we do more and more with less and less. I served in the late 70s as an electronics technician, EE, and later after Navy flight school, flying air rescue into the 80s. I was lucky to spend some time at two of the research labs, the electronics engineering center (EECEN) in Wildwood, NJ and later the electrical engineering laboratory (EELAB) in Alexandria, VA. At EELAB, I worked in other areas, but a lot of the LORAN work was done there. I remember, even back then, that some of the LORAN guys were searching hobby electronics suppliers to find obsolete chips they needed to keep the LORAN system going. I think those were LORAN C boards too, although not sure. Some new LORAN boards were being developed at the next bench over that used 6502 micros (I got to go to the micro class with the LORAN guys). Flying HU-25A Falcon jets (modified Falcon 200s that we got in 1982) across the Gulf of Mexico for some years, we had a gyro inertial system (which took some 20 minutes to align), LORAN C, and all the standard aviation navigation gear, ADF, VOR, DME, and TACAN. The Collins RNAV system used all inputs to develop position information.. As I recall, once we got hundreds of miles out into the gulf, all we had left was the inertial system (and paper charts and aluminum slide rules and later my hp-41CV with nav equations, when the RNAV when out). What we would have given for a GPS! Oh well, at least on the bright side, maybe some of those hp clocks will start to show up on the surplus market. There is a picture of the Falcon at: http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=15047 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13710 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.0.386) Database version: 5.13710 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
The Coast Guard has always been stretched very thin with limited resources for many missions. The saying was, every year we do more and more with less and less. I served in the late 70s as an electronics technician, EE, and later after Navy flight school, flying air rescue into the 80s. I was lucky to spend some time at two of the research labs, the electronics engineering center (EECEN) in Wildwood, NJ and later the electrical engineering laboratory (EELAB) in Alexandria, VA. At EELAB, I worked in other areas, but a lot of the LORAN work was done there. I remember, even back then, that some of the LORAN guys were searching hobby electronics suppliers to find obsolete chips they needed to keep the LORAN system going. I think those were LORAN C boards too, although not sure. Some new LORAN boards were being developed at the next bench over that used 6502 micros (I got to go to the micro class with the LORAN guys). Flying HU-25A Falcon jets (modified Falcon 200s that we got in 1982) across the Gulf of Mexico for some years, we had a gyro inertial system (which took some 20 minutes to align), LORAN C, and all the standard aviation navigation gear, ADF, VOR, DME, and TACAN. The Collins RNAV system used all inputs to develop position information. As I recall, once we got hundreds of miles out into the gulf, all we had left was the inertial system (and paper charts and aluminum slide rules and later my hp-41CV with nav equations, when the RNAV when out). What we would have given for a GPS! Oh well, at least on the bright side, maybe some of those hp clocks will start to show up on the surplus market. There is a picture of the Falcon at: http://www.aero-web.org/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=15047 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Thanks John... It was pre my usual caffine intake... Dave G0WBX. -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Hyperbolic, not parabolic. -John Someone may correct me on this. But isn't Loran a parabolic navigation system? So, the further away from the chain of transmitters you are, the positioning quality (for want of a better word) will deteriorate. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Not practical. You need ground wave reception of LORAN for accurate navigation. At long distances you would be reliant on sky wave. I'm going to an NPL Timing meeting in early December being held at Trinity House in London. I'll get the low down on what is happening over here on LORAN in light of the US announcement for 2010. If anyone else in UK fancies the visit - got to http://www.npl.co.uk/events/timing-and-non-gnss-positions for info. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 11 November 2009 01:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Someone may correct me on this. But isn't Loran a parabolic navigation system? So, the further away from the chain of transmitters you are, the positioning quality (for want of a better word) will deteriorate. I seem to remember reading that you need a good spread of directions for the incoming signals, so you get a decent fix, much like clasic direction finding and reducing the area of uncertanty. Too far away, and all the bearings (timings in this case) tend to one direction. Any Sky Wave propagation would also mess with the timings, multi hop and all that. As above, I stand to be corrected on this. I may be thinking of another system of course. Regards. Dave G0WBX. -Original Message- Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:44:27 -0500 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: ac803ca80911101944g12da250ft11db1fe55f530...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well that's what I am thinking about also. Earlier in this thread there was a mention of Europe. This would be a sky wave only signal as I recall from the navy. So I have g3plx LORAN software and will look to see what I might get here on the east coast. Suspect the Canadian chains will go very quickly since part of them uses the US chain. Or simpler then the g3plx software, just plugging in the GRI for the European chains. Have 3 austron receivers, the 2000c, 2100, and 2100f. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Claude Houde va2...@aei.ca wrote: Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Antonio, I ran into that last night. So much for an easy test. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:57 PM, asma...@fc.up.pt wrote: The problem with the some European chains is that they have four-digit GRPs . Therefore, the standard 2000C and maybe others are useless. Regards, Antonio CT1TE Quoting paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com: Well that's what I am thinking about also. Earlier in this thread there was a mention of Europe. This would be a sky wave only signal as I recall from the navy. So I have g3plx LORAN software and will look to see what I might get here on the east coast. Suspect the Canadian chains will go very quickly since part of them uses the US chain. Or simpler then the g3plx software, just plugging in the GRI for the European chains. Have 3 austron receivers, the 2000c, 2100, and 2100f. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Claude Houde va2...@aei.ca wrote: Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Hyperbolic, not parabolic. -John Someone may correct me on this. But isn't Loran a parabolic navigation system? So, the further away from the chain of transmitters you are, the positioning quality (for want of a better word) will deteriorate. I seem to remember reading that you need a good spread of directions for the incoming signals, so you get a decent fix, much like clasic direction finding and reducing the area of uncertanty. Too far away, and all the bearings (timings in this case) tend to one direction. Any Sky Wave propagation would also mess with the timings, multi hop and all that. As above, I stand to be corrected on this. I may be thinking of another system of course. Regards. Dave G0WBX. -Original Message- Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:44:27 -0500 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: ac803ca80911101944g12da250ft11db1fe55f530...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well that's what I am thinking about also. Earlier in this thread there was a mention of Europe. This would be a sky wave only signal as I recall from the navy. So I have g3plx LORAN software and will look to see what I might get here on the east coast. Suspect the Canadian chains will go very quickly since part of them uses the US chain. Or simpler then the g3plx software, just plugging in the GRI for the European chains. Have 3 austron receivers, the 2000c, 2100, and 2100f. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Claude Houde va2...@aei.ca wrote: Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Not practical. You need ground wave reception of LORAN for accurate navigation. At long distances you would be reliant on sky wave. Roy, OK, but my interest is NOT navigation, but as a standard of time interval. It would still be useful, even if the path length drifted between day and night as WWVB does. I'm going to an NPL Timing meeting in early December being held at Trinity House in London. I'll get the low down on what is happening over here on LORAN in light of the US announcement for 2010. If anyone else in UK fancies the visit - got to http://www.npl.co.uk/events/timing-and-non-gnss-positions for info. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 11 November 2009 01:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Hi: As the distance between the transmitter and receiver increases so does the jitter in the received signal. You can see that in the data on the NIST page where they monitor different stations from Colorado. The greater the distance the poorer the time recovered. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com J. Forster wrote: Not practical. You need ground wave reception of LORAN for accurate navigation. At long distances you would be reliant on sky wave. Roy, OK, but my interest is NOT navigation, but as a standard of time interval. It would still be useful, even if the path length drifted between day and night as WWVB does. I'm going to an NPL Timing meeting in early December being held at Trinity House in London. I'll get the low down on what is happening over here on LORAN in light of the US announcement for 2010. If anyone else in UK fancies the visit - got to http://www.npl.co.uk/events/timing-and-non-gnss-positions for info. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 11 November 2009 01:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Hi Rob I'm not sure yet but may see you there Alan Melia (G3NYK) - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: j...@quik.com; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Not practical. You need ground wave reception of LORAN for accurate navigation. At long distances you would be reliant on sky wave. I'm going to an NPL Timing meeting in early December being held at Trinity House in London. I'll get the low down on what is happening over here on LORAN in light of the US announcement for 2010. If anyone else in UK fancies the visit - got to http://www.npl.co.uk/events/timing-and-non-gnss-positions for info. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 11 November 2009 01:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Hi Alan, I hope so. Peter Vince is coming. Rob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Alan Melia Sent: 11 November 2009 20:10 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Hi Rob I'm not sure yet but may see you there Alan Melia (G3NYK) - Original Message - From: Rob Kimberley r...@timing-consultants.com To: j...@quik.com; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Not practical. You need ground wave reception of LORAN for accurate navigation. At long distances you would be reliant on sky wave. I'm going to an NPL Timing meeting in early December being held at Trinity House in London. I'll get the low down on what is happening over here on LORAN in light of the US announcement for 2010. If anyone else in UK fancies the visit - got to http://www.npl.co.uk/events/timing-and-non-gnss-positions for info. Rob Kimberley -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: 11 November 2009 01:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Correct, They are already at a price and size where they are making it onto light aircraft. An IN platform is life cycle cost competitive with a mechanical vertical/directional gyro pair and adding navigation is just (cheap apart from the RTCA DO-178 assurance) software. Echos of the end of Omega. The company I was working for had just added GPS modules to their Tracor Omega/VLF navigation systems. Unfortunately as the GPS was secondary to the Omega, they were not able to use them when the Omega was turn off. Robert G8RPI (MRAeS, day job avionics design engineer) --- On Mon, 9/11/09, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 9 November, 2009, 23:06 Don't overlook that laser/fiber ring-gyros will drop in price the patents expire and the predatory pricing ends: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/mk39/assets/mk39.pdf As much as I have enjoyed playing with Loran-C, I would far rather have a shoebox-sized, totally autonomous dead-reckoning backup, with no lightning-prone antenna, than a Loran-C receiver. Doesn't help us timing guys, but we have Cesiums if we are really serious. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
In a message dated 09/11/2009 23:24:27 GMT Standard Time, alan.me...@btinternet.com writes: There is a system in the UK that already does that and used digital TV as well I believe. The accurate nav is only really needed in coastal water and the phones cover most of those. Ain't many trees in the middle of the ocean either John, but we are working on it as a disguse for deep sea oil drilling platforms :-)) Sounds like a job for..Decca Navigator Man :-) regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
On the other hand... With GPS-aiding its argued that high performance INS-systems are not needed. The same performance will be reached with a low cost GPS and a mid to low performance inertial system. So I doubt we will have low cost high performance intertial sensors anytime soon. -- Björn Don't overlook that laser/fiber ring-gyros will drop in price the patents expire and the predatory pricing ends: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/mk39/assets/mk39.pdf As much as I have enjoyed playing with Loran-C, I would far rather have a shoebox-sized, totally autonomous dead-reckoning backup, with no lightning-prone antenna, than a Loran-C receiver. Doesn't help us timing guys, but we have Cesiums if we are really serious. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Hi Bjorn, This depends on what you call high performance. The normal definition of high performance in relation to IN is low drift with time. Even cheap fibre optic gyro based IN platforms can perform as well as the early airline standard mecanical units. GPS does not provide attitude or heading information (I'm ignoring specialist multi antenna differential set ups, these are not normal or mature systems). This information is needed in real time to fly the aircraft in IMC (low visibility) or on autopilot. Either attitude and directional gyros or an IN platform are still needed and IN is becoming the norm. There are also MEMS units that are making inroads in the light aviation market, especially in the USA. GPS (or to be more accurate GNSS) is only part of the system, all be it a very important one. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 10/11/09, b...@lysator.liu.se b...@lysator.liu.se wrote: From: b...@lysator.liu.se b...@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Tuesday, 10 November, 2009, 19:29 On the other hand... With GPS-aiding its argued that high performance INS-systems are not needed. The same performance will be reached with a low cost GPS and a mid to low performance inertial system. So I doubt we will have low cost high performance intertial sensors anytime soon. -- Björn Don't overlook that laser/fiber ring-gyros will drop in price the patents expire and the predatory pricing ends: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/mk39/assets/mk39.pdf As much as I have enjoyed playing with Loran-C, I would far rather have a shoebox-sized, totally autonomous dead-reckoning backup, with no lightning-prone antenna, than a Loran-C receiver. Doesn't help us timing guys, but we have Cesiums if we are really serious. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Hi Robert, High performance - for me - is 'navigation grade' wrt intertial systems. Your terminology is somewhat strange to me. 'IN' is that short for INertial or Inertial Navigation? There are (used to be) two basic types of intertial navigation systems; platform systems, where a number of gimbals with help from the gyros keep the central accelerometer platform at a constant orientation. The other type is strapdown systems, where gyros and accelerometers are mounted fixed within the INS box. High performance mechanical rotating gyros are associated with platform systems. Ring laser gyros and fiber optic gyros are typically strapdown, which completely dominate modern navigation. I doubt that your cheap FOG IN platform really is a platform system. I also very much doubt that these FOG systems perform as well as older mechanical platform inertial navigation systems! If you compare with vertical gyro-types, those are for aircraft control, not for navigation. Any IMU integrated with GPS/GNSS provides complete attitude information on moving platforms. There are certified pure GNSS heading sensors on the marine and other markets. -- Björn Hi Bjorn, This depends on what you call high performance. The normal definition of high performance in relation to IN is low drift with time. Even cheap fibre optic gyro based IN platforms can perform as well as the early airline standard mecanical units. GPS does not provide attitude or heading information (I'm ignoring specialist multi antenna differential set ups, these are not normal or mature systems). This information is needed in real time to fly the aircraft in IMC (low visibility) or on autopilot. Either attitude and directional gyros or an IN platform are still needed and IN is becoming the norm. There are also MEMS units that are making inroads in the light aviation market, especially in the USA. GPS (or to be more accurate GNSS) is only part of the system, all be it a very important one. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 10/11/09, b...@lysator.liu.se b...@lysator.liu.se wrote: From: b...@lysator.liu.se b...@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Tuesday, 10 November, 2009, 19:29 On the other hand... With GPS-aiding its argued that high performance INS-systems are not needed. The same performance will be reached with a low cost GPS and a mid to low performance inertial system. So I doubt we will have low cost high performance intertial sensors anytime soon. -- Björn Don't overlook that laser/fiber ring-gyros will drop in price the patents expire and the predatory pricing ends: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/mk39/assets/mk39.pdf As much as I have enjoyed playing with Loran-C, I would far rather have a shoebox-sized, totally autonomous dead-reckoning backup, with no lightning-prone antenna, than a Loran-C receiver. Doesn't help us timing guys, but we have Cesiums if we are really serious. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
In message 2455.41.130.184.218.1257890017.squir...@webmail.lysator.liu.se, bg @lysator.liu.se writes: High performance mechanical rotating gyros are associated with platform systems. Ring laser gyros and fiber optic gyros are typically strapdown, which completely dominate modern navigation. Actually, they are usually strapped down to a deliberately moving platform to avoid mode-lock-in at the mirrors, which produces a sticky or discrete steps effect at slow rates of rotation. But that is a minor detail. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 2455.41.130.184.218.1257890017.squir...@webmail.lysator.liu.se, bg @lysator.liu.se writes: High performance mechanical rotating gyros are associated with platform systems. Ring laser gyros and fiber optic gyros are typically strapdown, which completely dominate modern navigation. Actually, they are usually strapped down to a deliberately moving platform to avoid mode-lock-in at the mirrors, which produces a sticky or discrete steps effect at slow rates of rotation. But that is a minor detail. While such laser gyros need to vibrate their mirrors to avoid the locking (having heard the audioble noise out of Björns basement lab) they remain part of the strap-down system. A little bit of vibration is nothing to rotating objects. There is also gyros having no vibration at all, but uses a roll of fiber instead. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Also, somebody mentioned French chains. Any info on those would be appreciated. They might worl, especially on the east coast. -John == Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Is Loran C used with GPS to help make land surveying more accurate? I thought I read something about using both systems together. --- This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. --- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
Well that's what I am thinking about also. Earlier in this thread there was a mention of Europe. This would be a sky wave only signal as I recall from the navy. So I have g3plx LORAN software and will look to see what I might get here on the east coast. Suspect the Canadian chains will go very quickly since part of them uses the US chain. Or simpler then the g3plx software, just plugging in the GRI for the European chains. Have 3 austron receivers, the 2000c, 2100, and 2100f. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Claude Houde va2...@aei.ca wrote: Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C shutdown
The problem with the some European chains is that they have four-digit GRPs . Therefore, the standard 2000C and maybe others are useless. Regards, Antonio CT1TE Quoting paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com: Well that's what I am thinking about also. Earlier in this thread there was a mention of Europe. This would be a sky wave only signal as I recall from the navy. So I have g3plx LORAN software and will look to see what I might get here on the east coast. Suspect the Canadian chains will go very quickly since part of them uses the US chain. Or simpler then the g3plx software, just plugging in the GRI for the European chains. Have 3 austron receivers, the 2000c, 2100, and 2100f. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Claude Houde va2...@aei.ca wrote: Hello ! Before you throw away your Loran Receivers, have you checked what will happen with the Canadian Transmitter Chains ? Would it be possible with better antennas to receive signals from other countries ? Would be interested in hearing your input on these ideas ! Thanks ! Claude ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
In message 2455.41.130.184.218.1257890017.squir...@webmail.lysator.liu.se, bg @lysator.liu.se writes: High performance mechanical rotating gyros are associated with platform systems. Ring laser gyros and fiber optic gyros are typically strapdown, which completely dominate modern navigation. Actually, they are usually strapped down to a deliberately moving platform to avoid mode-lock-in at the mirrors, which produces a sticky or discrete steps effect at slow rates of rotation. Most RLGs have a mechanical dither mechanism, but that is only moving the optical subsystem within the gyro. There is no platform at all for the accelerometers, and the three gyros typically do not use the same dither frequency. There are RLGs (Litton/NGC Zero Lock Gyro) that have no mechanical movement, they instead have an 'optical' dithering of one mirrors. FOGs have no moving parts at all. But that is a minor detail. True. Poul-Henning -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Hi: It's here: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/Loran/default.htm under: The Operating Status of LORAN-C Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com paul swed wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
There can be life for many Loran C receivers. They can be used as a high resolution comparator with a Loran C simulator that could be made with a few components and a PIC. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/9/2009 5:11:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rdarling...@gmail.com writes: Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
I believe sextant On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com wrote: So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Eric Garner wrote: So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? But that doesn't happend, right? *ironic tone* With eLoran modernisation, there would be some chance of survival, but obviously focus is on stripping down the suit if it not can be motivated properly. Let's fact it, there will be a shut-down of all systems eventually. GPS is taking the approach of rolling in changes and cut signals _eventually_. But GPS is young compared to the Loran history. As for not being reliable or available, GPS works too well for people (except US and other nations military branches) to look serious at countermeasures like alternative signals or even hold-over properties or monitoring the existence and reliability of the signal. I think Loran-C receivers isn't as common in say telecom or other systems as they used to be. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
My impression is eLORAN is off the table. Since DHS is letting it go also. Sextant, compass, and a good chronometer. On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Eric Garner wrote: So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? But that doesn't happend, right? *ironic tone* With eLoran modernisation, there would be some chance of survival, but obviously focus is on stripping down the suit if it not can be motivated properly. Let's fact it, there will be a shut-down of all systems eventually. GPS is taking the approach of rolling in changes and cut signals _eventually_. But GPS is young compared to the Loran history. As for not being reliable or available, GPS works too well for people (except US and other nations military branches) to look serious at countermeasures like alternative signals or even hold-over properties or monitoring the existence and reliability of the signal. I think Loran-C receivers isn't as common in say telecom or other systems as they used to be. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Sell it into Europe Bob the French are bound to keep the W-European chain going, and VT comms has a 10 year contact to provide eLoran for Trinity house in the UK.does this say something about their belief in Galilleo I wonder !! Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Hi Paul, It wasnt my thread but the problem does occur that when you edit the subject line it doesnt change the thread title which is embedded in the original message I think. I rather expected the closure to happen. I was a bit surprised that it didnt close last year. My guess is the French will try to keep the W European chain running.As it happens it may scupper a little ionsopheric project I want to run using Loran-C. Thanks for the detail, someone else from the LF group saw something on a GPS site but their URL didnt work. Thanks and Best Wishes Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:01 PM Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
On 11/9/09 2:43 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: I believe sextant On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com wrote: So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. --- What do they when the satellite stops? The same thing they do when Loran stops... celnav ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Dead Reckoning ?? - Original Message - From: Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Sextant and chronometer, of course! Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Garner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Triangulate with cell phone towers?;) On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Lester Veenstra m0...@veenstras.com wrote: Sextant and chronometer, of course! Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Garner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
In message b3bd5fcb0911091410qb5a8846y9ea09caa32003...@mail.gmail.com, Robert Darlington writes: Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? You should complain, I built one from scratch: http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.3.pdf :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
That old Carousel IV buried in the back of my garage my someday have a use again -pete Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Very few cell towers in mid ocean and GPS signals are blocked by trees. Congress are IDIOTS. -John Triangulate with cell phone towers?;) On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Lester Veenstra m0...@veenstras.com wrote: Sextant and chronometer, of course! Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Garner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Don't overlook that laser/fiber ring-gyros will drop in price the patents expire and the predatory pricing ends: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/mk39/assets/mk39.pdf As much as I have enjoyed playing with Loran-C, I would far rather have a shoebox-sized, totally autonomous dead-reckoning backup, with no lightning-prone antenna, than a Loran-C receiver. Doesn't help us timing guys, but we have Cesiums if we are really serious. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
There is a system in the UK that already does that and used digital TV as well I believe. The accurate nav is only really needed in coastal water and the phones cover most of those. Ain't many trees in the middle of the ocean either John, but we are working on it as a disguse for deep sea oil drilling platforms :-)) Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Robert Darlington rdarling...@gmail.com To: les...@veenstras.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown Triangulate with cell phone towers?;) On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Lester Veenstra m0...@veenstras.com wrote: Sextant and chronometer, of course! Lester B Veenstra MØYCM K1YCM les...@veenstras.com m0...@veenstras.com k1...@veenstras.com US Postal Address: PSC 45 Box 781 APO AE 09468 USA UK Postal Address: Dawn Cottage Norwood, Harrogate HG3 1SD, UK Telephones: Office: +44-(0)1423-846-385 Home: +44-(0)1943-880-963 Guam Cell: +1-671-788-5654 UK Cell: +44-(0)7716-298-224 US Cell: +1-240-425-7335 Jamaica: +1-876-352-7504 This e-mail and any documents attached hereto contain confidential or privileged information. The information is intended to be for use only by the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this e-mail or any documents attached hereto is prohibited. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Eric Garner Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
The tree reference is for nav in forest or jungle canopy areas. A very few trees will largely kill GPS. LORAN does not care. I have that exact problem. -John There is a system in the UK that already does that and used digital TV as well I believe. The accurate nav is only really needed in coastal water and the phones cover most of those. Ain't many trees in the middle of the ocean either John, but we are working on it as a disguse for deep sea oil drilling platforms :-)) Alan G3NYK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown
Unfortunatly very few commercial aircraft carry Loran C equipment. The large ones would fall back on inertial navigation. Robert G8RPI. --- On Mon, 9/11/09, Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com wrote: From: Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LORAN C shutdown To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 9 November, 2009, 22:25 So what are ships/planes supposed to if/when satellite navigation becomes unreliable or unavailable ? On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 2:14 PM, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: The Congress is UTTERLY CLUELESS. It's supposed to shut down Jan 4, 2010. See: http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Homeland_Security_FY10_Conference.pdf -John === Anybody looking to buy an Austron 2000c ? Any takers? Any? -Bob On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:01 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Very sorry if I grabbed your thread. I thought I changed the header I finally found it in the senate votes this weekend. The house and senate voted to shut it down and the president signed it. (We will save .2% of the budget) The USCG and DHS said they had no need. It was very hard to find, its not on the uscg or megapulse site Changed the header but maybe you can't start threads that way. I sure would like to be very very wrong on this subject. Regards Paul. PS one day I will figure out why the reply says me ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
