Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
That's more in line with what I've seen... billing for KVA plus a penalty for high KVARs. Interestingly, last seen, the giant wound-rotor synchronous motors at the Bitter National Lab got a rate reduction for overexciting the rotors, so they look like capacitors, rather than inductors. -John = > > On 2/14/10 12:54 PM, "J. Forster" wrote: > >> Power companies charge for KVAs, NOT KVARs. >> >> -John >> >> = >> >> >> >>> Take a look at the poor (but commonly low) power factor. >>> Much more volt-amps are being delivered than used to do effective work >>> as kilowatts. >>> >>> Power factor correction would be a money saver if saving money were an >>> objective. >>> > > PF = 0.75 isn't horrible but not great. The apparent power is 33% more > than > the actual power. That's what lots of places with older motors and > conventional fluorescent ballasts probably run. > > The electric company (at least here in southern california) doesn't charge > for KVA or KVAR, per se. What they do is charge for kWhr, plus a penalty > for poor PF, but the penalty isn't proportional to the VARs. It's more of > a > step function, based on the peak reactive load. (measured in some fairly > small time increment) > > > > For instance, on Southern California Edison tariff RTP-3 Large Realtime > pricing > For service delivered and metered at voltages greater than 50kV, > including Cogeneration and Small Power Production Customers, the billing > will be increased by $0.18 per kilovar of maximum reactive > demand imposed on the Company. (you get a 10%+ discount for getting your > power at 50kV and above) > > For service delivered and metered at voltages of 50kV or less, including > Cogeneration and Small Power Production Customers, the billing will be > increased by $0.23 per kilovar of maximum reactive demand imposed on > the Company. > > > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
That's no true, at least in my country. The industrial consumer is charged for reactive power. We are therefore forced to correct our power factor (cos fi). Antonio CT1TE Quoting "J. Forster" : Power companies charge for KVAs, NOT KVARs. -John = Take a look at the poor (but commonly low) power factor. Much more volt-amps are being delivered than used to do effective work as kilowatts. Power factor correction would be a money saver if saving money were an objective. Stan, W1LE Cape Cod Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message , Bob Camp writes: Hi I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 transmitters) up and running? http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On 2/14/10 1:05 PM, "Stan, W1LE" wrote: > Residential meters measure KW > Industrial meters usually measure KVARs along with KVAs delivered > and the utility bills for both. > There is usually a distinct economic factor to reduce KVARs > > Stan, W1LE > The last place I worked where I had access to the meters, the KVAR "meter" had a "peak hold" feature (mechanical) that would remember the highest reactive load we drew. As described in another post, SoCal Edison tags you with a fee for whatever that peak hold read, on top of your kWhr number. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On 2/14/10 12:54 PM, "J. Forster" wrote: > Power companies charge for KVAs, NOT KVARs. > > -John > > = > > > >> Take a look at the poor (but commonly low) power factor. >> Much more volt-amps are being delivered than used to do effective work >> as kilowatts. >> >> Power factor correction would be a money saver if saving money were an >> objective. >> PF = 0.75 isn't horrible but not great. The apparent power is 33% more than the actual power. That's what lots of places with older motors and conventional fluorescent ballasts probably run. The electric company (at least here in southern california) doesn't charge for KVA or KVAR, per se. What they do is charge for kWhr, plus a penalty for poor PF, but the penalty isn't proportional to the VARs. It's more of a step function, based on the peak reactive load. (measured in some fairly small time increment) For instance, on Southern California Edison tariff RTP-3 Large Realtime pricing For service delivered and metered at voltages greater than 50kV, including Cogeneration and Small Power Production Customers, the billing will be increased by $0.18 per kilovar of maximum reactive demand imposed on the Company. (you get a 10%+ discount for getting your power at 50kV and above) For service delivered and metered at voltages of 50kV or less, including Cogeneration and Small Power Production Customers, the billing will be increased by $0.23 per kilovar of maximum reactive demand imposed on the Company. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Residential meters measure KW Industrial meters usually measure KVARs along with KVAs delivered and the utility bills for both. There is usually a distinct economic factor to reduce KVARs Stan, W1LE J. Forster wrote: Power companies charge for KVAs, NOT KVARs. -John = ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Power companies charge for KVAs, NOT KVARs. -John = > Take a look at the poor (but commonly low) power factor. > Much more volt-amps are being delivered than used to do effective work > as kilowatts. > > Power factor correction would be a money saver if saving money were an > objective. > > Stan, W1LE Cape Cod > > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> In message , Bob Camp >> writes: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 >>> transmitters) up and running? >>> >> >> http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html >> >> Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Take a look at the poor (but commonly low) power factor. Much more volt-amps are being delivered than used to do effective work as kilowatts. Power factor correction would be a money saver if saving money were an objective. Stan, W1LE Cape Cod Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message , Bob Camp writes: Hi I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 transmitters) up and running? http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
At 20.04 14/02/2010, Poul-Henning wrote: http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí Possibly times 1.73, it's three phase. About 650 MW/h per year - 2500 MW/h for the chain. Approx. $250.000 ? Real costs are not there... personal cost, infrastructure, masts... are much higher. 73 - Marco IK1ODO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Looks like 40kW What's that mean, For those of us not familiar with those units, can you give that in the new standardized USA government units of, "CARS OFF THE ROAD". :-) ** Hi I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 transmitters) up and running? http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
In message , Bob Camp writes: >Hi > >I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 >transmitters) up and running? http://phk.freebsd.dk/photos/L9007M/dscf0458.jpg.html Looks like 40kW for a dualrated transmitter like Eidí -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi I wonder what just the electric bill is to keep a single chain (4 transmitters) up and running? They automated away most of the on-site / hands on stuff back a while ago (80's?). I would *guess* that electricity is a significant portion of what it costs to keep things running. Bob On Feb 14, 2010, at 1:36 PM, J. Forster wrote: > Jerry is a WW II and after Navy info collector. He has a really nice web > site on all sorts of things. > > He also occasionally sends out really funny jokes. The LORAN site appears > to be a spoof, but it's not such a bad idea, IMO. > > Best, > -John > > = > > >> Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not >> familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent >> hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was >> the first of April already (April Fool's Day). >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Bill Hawkins >> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM >> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds >> >> >> This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry >> Proc): >> >> http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l >> oran.html >> >> Bill Hawkins >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Jerry is a WW II and after Navy info collector. He has a really nice web site on all sorts of things. He also occasionally sends out really funny jokes. The LORAN site appears to be a spoof, but it's not such a bad idea, IMO. Best, -John = > Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not > familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent > hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was > the first of April already (April Fool's Day). > > -Original Message- > From: Bill Hawkins > Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds > > > This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry > Proc): > > http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l > oran.html > > Bill Hawkins > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On 2/14/10 12:34 AM, "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > In message , Neville Michie > wri > tes: > >> We had a system of secondary radar called DME [...] > > DME is still going strong, and is the main GPS-Backup over Europe > for air-traffic. > >> I do not know how shipping located themselves. > > Possibly Omega... > Or Transit, or celestial nav for open seas, pilotage (perhaps with radar assist) for coastal waters. After all folks did successfully navigate ships long before electronics was common place (most of the time, anyway) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi,A company I worked for in the mid 90's updated their Tracor VLF Omega navigation systems (about 20) to include an embedded GPS. This was not cheap. About a year later they shut down Omega. As the GPS was a "secondary" sensor they had to replace the whole system, DOH! Robert G8RPI. --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Bob Camp wrote: From: Bob Camp Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Date: Sunday, 14 February, 2010, 13:24 Hi Omega was pretty much the "way to go" for large ship (think super tankers) navigation until the late 1980's. At least in the US, the big commercial airlines switched from Omega to GPS in the 1990's. Anybody that was using it had to do something before it was shut down in 1997. Loran-C is not the first big time system they have shut down in the face of competition from GPS. Bob On Feb 14, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Neville Michie wrote: > Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was trialed, > but never installed. > We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s - early 60s. > A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and was received > by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd microseconds > and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed > in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at VHF and > the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing pulse spacing. > With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost? > I do not know how shipping located themselves. > cheers, Neville Michie > > On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote: > >> I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally >> produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an >> improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never >> used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently >> flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my >> single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled >> over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed >> Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its >> performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many >> ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw >> operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation >> for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s. >> >> Matt Osborn wrote: >>> A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on >>> the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when >>> Spooky showed up. >>> >>> Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing >>> all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service. >>> >>> Thanks for your service, Peter. >>> >>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> My A-10 aircraft >>> >>> -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi Omega was pretty much the "way to go" for large ship (think super tankers) navigation until the late 1980's. At least in the US, the big commercial airlines switched from Omega to GPS in the 1990's. Anybody that was using it had to do something before it was shut down in 1997. Loran-C is not the first big time system they have shut down in the face of competition from GPS. Bob On Feb 14, 2010, at 2:04 AM, Neville Michie wrote: > Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was trialed, > but never installed. > We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s - early 60s. > A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and was received > by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd microseconds > and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed > in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at VHF and > the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing pulse spacing. > With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost? > I do not know how shipping located themselves. > cheers, Neville Michie > > On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote: > >> I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally >> produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an >> improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never >> used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently >> flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my >> single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled >> over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed >> Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its >> performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many >> ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw >> operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation >> for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s. >> >> Matt Osborn wrote: >>> A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on >>> the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when >>> Spooky showed up. >>> >>> Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing >>> all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service. >>> >>> Thanks for your service, Peter. >>> >>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam >>> wrote: >>> >>> My A-10 aircraft >>> >>> -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com >>> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi,Yes DME is still going strong. Modern interrogators time division multiplex between 3 or more ground stations, giving enough data for the navigation computer to get a position fix. It's the one analogue system that looks like it's got a future. It's compatible with the distance part of the military TACAN (TACtical Air Navigation) system. The original system design in the '50's was very forward thinking and allowed for expansion. They even modulate the pulses (L band around 1000MHz) to piggy-back a datalink on the TACAN signal.Did some work once pulling 0.01nm resolution signals out of a DME for ILS calibration. Robert G8RPI. --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Date: Sunday, 14 February, 2010, 8:34 In message , Neville Michie wri tes: >We had a system of secondary radar called DME [...] DME is still going strong, and is the main GPS-Backup over Europe for air-traffic. >I do not know how shipping located themselves. Possibly Omega... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
In message , Neville Michie wri tes: >We had a system of secondary radar called DME [...] DME is still going strong, and is the main GPS-Backup over Europe for air-traffic. >I do not know how shipping located themselves. Possibly Omega... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Australia never had LORAN. At one stage I think a Decca system was trialed, but never installed. We had a system of secondary radar called DME from the late 50s - early 60s. A randomised pulse pair was sent out from the plane and was received by a beacon at the airport. The beacon digested it for 14 odd microseconds and sent out a reply pulse. The two way delay was displayed in nautical miles on a cockpit indicator. The range was 200+ miles at VHF and the pulse pairing could interrogate other beacons by changing pulse spacing. With three beacons and a compass how could you get lost? I do not know how shipping located themselves. cheers, Neville Michie On 14/02/2010, at 5:36 PM, Robert Berg wrote: I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s. Matt Osborn wrote: A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when Spooky showed up. Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service. Thanks for your service, Peter. On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: My A-10 aircraft -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
I believe he's referring to the Fairchild A-10A bubble sextant, originally produced in the 1940s. I used a periscopic sextant in the KC-135, an improvement over the hand-held, or dome-mounted bubble sextant, but I never used any sextant in the Fairchild Republic A-10A "Warthog" I subsequently flew. Interesting coincidence with nomenclature. Using a sextant in my single-seat Warthog would have been a trick! I confess to having drooled over Loran C while serving as a nav in SAC. When I eventually installed Loran C in my personal Mooney aircraft, I was quite pleased with its performance, but there's no question that GPS has eclipsed Loran in many ways for global navigation. Strangely enough, the only Loran receiver I saw operationally in the USAF was Loran A, in the KC-135Q, to improve navigation for rendezvous with the SR-71. It was quite a dinosaur, even in the '70s. Matt Osborn wrote: A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when Spooky showed up. Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service. Thanks for your service, Peter. On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: My A-10 aircraft -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Confirmed to be not only a hoax, but a cruel hoax. Jerry asked the Coast guard and got this answer: GREETINGS: Thank you for your report regarding the absence of LORAN signal availability. In accordance with the DHS Appropriations Act, the U.S. Coast Guard has terminated the transmission of all U.S. LORAN-C signals effective 2000Z 08 Feb 2010. At this time, the U.S. LORAN-C signal will be unusable and permanently discontinued. This termination does not affect U.S. participation in the Russian American or Canadian LORAN-C chains. U.S. participation in these chains will continue in accordance with international agreements. The Canadian Coast Guard has also issued a statement, which is shown on their website. You may view the estimated remaining LORAN-C signal coverage areas of these international chains at <http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/loran/sigspec/excerptofappenxb.pdf). The Coast Guard strongly urges mariners currently using LORAN-C for navigation to shift to a GPS navigation system and become familiar with its operation as soon as possible. The decision to cease transmission of the LORAN-C signal reflects the president's pledge to eliminate unnecessary federal programs. If you have any further questions regarding LORAN please contact the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Public Affairs Office at 202-282-8010. Sincerely, USCG Navigation Center Navigation Information Service NAVCEN MS 7310 7323 Telegraph Road Alexandria, VA 20598 - 7310 Tel: 703-313-5900 www.navcen.uscg.gov -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:25 PM Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was the first of April already (April Fool's Day). -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry Proc): http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l oran.html Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Lady Heather will let you know when it is April Fool's day (and a bunch of other days) if you are running one of the latest beta versions... - One person on the list asked if it was the first of April already (April Fool's Day). _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Sorry, this appears to be a hoax. Jerry is Canadian and perhaps not familiar with US politics. Searching for "LORAN saved" gets no recent hits except for this article. One person on the list asked if it was the first of April already (April Fool's Day). -Original Message- From: Bill Hawkins Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 11:49 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry Proc): http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l oran.html Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
This reference showed up in a radio list from a reliable source (Jerry Proc): http://thek3ngreport.blogspot.com/2010/02/radio-amateur-volunteers-to-save-l oran.html Bill Hawkins ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
A hog driver and time-nut; heck of a combination. I kept my feet on the ground back in the '60s. but always had my spirits lifted when Spooky showed up. Heard you guys flew the wings off those planes. Boeing is replacing all 242 wing sets for another 20 years of service. Thanks for your service, Peter. On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:29:39 -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: > My A-10 aircraft -- kc0ukk at msosborn dot com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
GPS was and would still be useable with SA back on. And, the Coast Guard still supports DGPS. I am no expert, but my GPS with SA on always beat my use of a sextant. John WA4WDL -- From: Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:46 AM To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds Hi Steve, What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. Steve KD2OM GPS _will_ (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war. Buy a Glonass receiver. (In a few years buy a Galileo/Gagan/GPS/Glonass recevier...) The US has promised not to turn SA back on. I also do not think the (maritime) DGPS stations have closed down in costal areas. They will mitigate SA and still provide some integrity. -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
It does if you are a presidential suck up. ie DHS head Whats being saved is truly nothing. But don't want to get on that soap box poor form. On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Sykes, Stephan wrote: > Majdi is correct. The budget report I saw showed that it was less to > upgrade than to decommission. It still doesn't make sense to rely on > only one system with the assumption that it won't break. I think in the > future that shutting down these site will be deemed a bad idea. > > > Steve KD2OM > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 13:01 > To: pe...@ni6e.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: > > The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and > > of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii > > had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night. > > Coverage was even less during daylight hours. > >Not so; > >Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and > have been prototyped. > >eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS, > and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either. > >The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having > nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system. > It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization. > >Cheers, > >--msa > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Majdi is correct. The budget report I saw showed that it was less to upgrade than to decommission. It still doesn't make sense to rely on only one system with the assumption that it won't break. I think in the future that shutting down these site will be deemed a bad idea. Steve KD2OM -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 13:01 To: pe...@ni6e.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: > The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and > of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii > had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night. > Coverage was even less during daylight hours. Not so; Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and have been prototyped. eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS, and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either. The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system. It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization. Cheers, --msa ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 07:29:39AM -0800, Peter Putnam wrote: > The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and > of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii > had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night. > Coverage was even less during daylight hours. Not so; Designs for H-field antennas for LORAN and GPS exist, and have been prototyped. eLORAN receivers perform on the order of unassisted GPS, and combined receivers (eLORAN+GPS) beat the accuracy of either. The problem with the -C shutdown is it means they having nearly finished the upgrades, will never run the new system. It's going to cost more to tear it down than finish the modernization. Cheers, --msa ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
True. However, GPS is now so ubiquitous that if they put SA back on, Congress would likely reverse the decision because of the outcry. GPS is a victim of its own success. FWIW, -Jhn === > What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back > on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. > > Steve KD2OM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Well from what I have seen on posts I don't agree on LORAN C dying for Nav. In particular there is a website that pilots use were they have been bitching about the shut down. Will believe boaters are out there also. But I think the real answer is that commercial pilots and Navigation abandoned it a while ago. They matter. So think about whats been going on and you may really appreciate what we had. LORAN C for time-nuts was the only tax dollar we ever got back from the government. So at $36M/year and 100 time-nuts thats $36,000 a year to each of us. Finally a reason to have been very happy about taxes and LORAN C And by-god tax free no less. Or should I have declared that??? On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:44 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote: > I still have a LORAN-C based navigation receiver in my plane. It is part > of > a Northstar M2 system which uses Loran-C and GPS in a dual sensor mode. > Jeppesen stopped supporting the database for Northstar about a year ago and > now Loran-C is gone (haven't been flying since the shutdown to see if I can > pick up any Canadian Chains here on the Gulf Coast) so I am going to have > to > upgrade to a Garmin or similar GPS system. Big $$$'s and a PITA but at > least I got maximum return on the original investment and waited until > maturation of the moving map technology. > > Joe > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Bob Camp > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:57 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds > > > Hi > > I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a > while > back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two > weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They > don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen > to is not a backup. > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Greetings, As a former user of Loran for aircraft navigation, I can safely say that there is no reason to preserve the system. The antenna required on an aircraft must be vertically polarized and of significant length. The route from the US west coast to Hawaii had no coverage in the middle one-third of the route at night. Coverage was even less during daylight hours. Cycle slipping was always an issue; one needed to have a dead-reckoning position available to make sure the Loran-derived position was accurate. Errors of hundreds of miles (that pop back to zero without warning) were seen on the TI 9000 unit, a $1500 box, that displayed only time differences. Calculation of the flight log was a separate time consuming effort. Coverage in the Southern Hemisphere was not available. My A-10 aircraft bubble-sextant and Tamaya NC-2 sight-reduction calculator served me well in that half of the world. Now I can have a position update once per second, accurate to a few meters, anywhere in the world, with no antenna issues, in a hand-held GPS receiver requiring no power from the aircraft, that automatically updates the time to each fix along the route, for under $100. Good-bye to Loran C and Loran A, too, which had even worse problems with skywave contamination of the groundwave signal. Plotting a position on paper charts overprinted with hyperbolic lines wasn't particularly accurate anyway, especially along the baseline of a chain. Regards, Peter Bob Camp wrote: Hi I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup. Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will always make a low use system like Loran expensive. The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch. Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav system. Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes. We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
I still have a LORAN-C based navigation receiver in my plane. It is part of a Northstar M2 system which uses Loran-C and GPS in a dual sensor mode. Jeppesen stopped supporting the database for Northstar about a year ago and now Loran-C is gone (haven't been flying since the shutdown to see if I can pick up any Canadian Chains here on the Gulf Coast) so I am going to have to upgrade to a Garmin or similar GPS system. Big $$$'s and a PITA but at least I got maximum return on the original investment and waited until maturation of the moving map technology. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Camp Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 6:57 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds Hi I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Actually pretty much what would happen if the same occurred now that Loran C is turned off. Tell me, how well does your GPS receiver work with Loran C? Do you have a mapping Loran C receiver to take your GPS's place should it be disabled? No one else does either. -Chuck Harris Sykes, Stephan wrote: What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. Steve KD2OM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
I agree with many of these comments. I guess LORAN C for timing will never die for me. Now that I have the LORAN C simulator and it keeps the timing receivers happy. Granted the main reference is "me" but I have to say the HP5065 seems more usable then wwvb. And very inexpensive compared to the LORAN C system. ;-) I am using the 59300 chain (Canadian) for now. But I am ready to shift in Sept when they shut down. On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a > while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died > two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They > don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen > to is not a backup. > > Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped > navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade > to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place > after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran > drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will > always make a low use system like Loran expensive. > > The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. > Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've > handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return > > The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have > three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for > them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, > lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch. > > Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have > used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav > system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav > system. > > Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they > turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of > timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a > backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and > failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and > again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with > that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that > decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or > months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would > take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes. > > We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a > look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary > as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues > > Bob > > On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote: > > > What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back > > on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. > > > > Steve KD2OM > > > > -Original Message- > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > > Behalf Of Bill Hawkins > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04 > > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds > > > > > > Two things: > > > > 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to > > examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and > > power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place > > after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up. > > > > The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at > > peak activity. > > > > 2. Its all about $$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions > > based > > on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy > > lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with > > other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The > > principle > > is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs > > less > > per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery. > > > > Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those > > Impossible > > People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup. Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will always make a low use system like Loran expensive. The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch. Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav system. Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes. We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues Bob On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote: > What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back > on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. > > Steve KD2OM > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Bill Hawkins > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04 > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds > > > Two things: > > 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to > examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and > power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place > after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up. > > The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at > peak activity. > > 2. Its all about $$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions > based > on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy > lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with > other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The > principle > is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs > less > per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery. > > Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those > Impossible > People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in > our > skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to > female > fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to > deal > with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over. > Don't > try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds > threatening. > > Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an > ancient > lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays > dominance > games? Almost any politician you care to name. > > So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why > engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the > first > t
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
In message <62026.87.227.52.225.1265975191.squir...@webmail.lysator.liu.se>, bg @lysator.liu.se writes: >GPS _will_ (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war. You mean just like "Windows Vista has to be a success" ? It's always important to distinguish between hard facts and abstract objectives. Fact: GPS is no less vulnerable because US is at war. Abstract Objective: It would screw them badly if it breaks. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi Steve, > What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back > on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. > > Steve KD2OM GPS _will_ (can) not get a serious problem as long as the US is at war. Buy a Glonass receiver. (In a few years buy a Galileo/Gagan/GPS/Glonass recevier...) The US has promised not to turn SA back on. I also do not think the (maritime) DGPS stations have closed down in costal areas. They will mitigate SA and still provide some integrity. -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back on? Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant. Steve KD2OM -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Hawkins Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds Two things: 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up. The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at peak activity. 2. Its all about $$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions based on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The principle is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs less per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery. Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those Impossible People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in our skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to female fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to deal with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over. Don't try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds threatening. Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an ancient lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays dominance games? Almost any politician you care to name. So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the first time. Darn, the soap box broke. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM Sure they might take a check for $36M or so. As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down before Oct. Its all about $$ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Two things: 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up. The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at peak activity. 2. Its all about $$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions based on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The principle is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs less per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery. Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those Impossible People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in our skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to female fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to deal with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over. Don't try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds threatening. Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an ancient lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays dominance games? Almost any politician you care to name. So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the first time. Darn, the soap box broke. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM Sure they might take a check for $36M or so. As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down before Oct. Its all about $$ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Actually if I had a spare $36M or less I might buy the station on Nantucket. ;-) Change it from LORAN to Master freq reference... Though I am thinking several CS standards would be cheaper. Certainly draws less power On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, paul swed wrote: > Sure they might take a check for $36M or so. > As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down > before Oct. > Its all about $$ > > > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: > >> I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping >> LORAN operating? >> >> -John >> >> === >> >> >> > Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to >> listen. >> > But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN) >> > Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter >> until >> > Sept/Oct when even that will go away. >> > >> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hi all; >> >> Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 >> >> years, >> >> it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the >> >> syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast >> >> Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about >> >> 125 >> >> miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725. >> >> As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched >> >> my >> >> 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and >> >> start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main >> frequency >> >> reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun >> >> experiment. I >> >> guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains. >> >> Regards; Rich >> >> ___ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> >> To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > ___ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Sure they might take a check for $36M or so. As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down before Oct. Its all about $$ On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: > I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping > LORAN operating? > > -John > > === > > > > Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to > listen. > > But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN) > > Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until > > Sept/Oct when even that will go away. > > > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz > > wrote: > > > >> Hi all; > >> Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 > >> years, > >> it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the > >> syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast > >> Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about > >> 125 > >> miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725. > >> As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched > >> my > >> 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and > >> start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency > >> reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun > >> experiment. I > >> guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains. > >> Regards; Rich > >> ___ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > ___ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
I wonder if there is any point in contacting the Canadians about keeping LORAN operating? -John === > Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to listen. > But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN) > Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until > Sept/Oct when even that will go away. > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz > wrote: > >> Hi all; >> Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 >> years, >> it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the >> syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast >> Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about >> 125 >> miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725. >> As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched >> my >> 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and >> start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency >> reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun >> experiment. I >> guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains. >> Regards; Rich >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Unfortunately I had to travel during the shutdown. I had wanted to listen. But I fired up the austron and 59300 locks (Canadian LORAN) Like you, I have only ever heard dual rate. Now its a steady patter until Sept/Oct when even that will go away. On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Rich and Marcia Putz wrote: > Hi all; > Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 years, > it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the > syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast > Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about 125 > miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725. > As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched my > 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and > start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency > reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun experiment. I > guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains. > Regards; Rich > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Loran C sounds
Hi all; Just an aside, after hearing dual rated Lorsta Dana for the last 25 years, it is interesting to now hear a single rated chain. Rather than the syncopated clatter of Dana, now just a smooth pitter! The east coast Canadian chain is much weaker here in northern Indiana than Dana (about 125 miles air) but still quite copyable on my IC-725. As far as useability at this point, while Dana was still on I switched my 2100F over to GRI 5930 and it only took about 1/2 hour to be locked and start reading my Austron 1250 frequency numbers. I get my main frequency reference from a TAPR T-bolt, but the Austron 2100F was a fun experiment. I guess the next Loran adventure can be DXing chains. Regards; Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
