Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

2017-05-29 Thread Bob kb8tq 
Hi

The gotcha with carrier phase is that it is a bit more sensitive to local 
signals 
than your ear is. Yes, a lot depends on your antenna setup and as you mention, 
just how many watts of distribution and thousands of feet of cable you are 
running 
10 MHz through. 

Bob

> On May 29, 2017, at 11:00 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs
> via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my
> dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-).
> 
> This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be
> 15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too.
> 
> I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that
> into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one
> channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could
> monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave
> from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow
> me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock.
> 
> I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this.
> I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging
> serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-).
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty
>> cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
>> setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external
>> clock
>> input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10
>> MHz.
>> Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I
>> would aim
>> at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules
>> out
>> 15 MHz :)
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>>> 
>>> During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
>>> shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
>>> using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred
>> microseconds
>>> of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
>>> 
>>> Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
>>> too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
>>> refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that
>> would
>>> let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation.
>> If I
>>> could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an
>> ionospheric
>>> effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
>>> from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
>>> location.
>>> 
>>> Tim N3QE
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts@febo.com
 wrote:
>>> 
 On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
 lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or
>> that.
 One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
>> not
 solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
 reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/
>> journal/v402/n6763/full/
 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
 allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
 allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
 results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
 else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
 crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
 Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
 clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
 don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
>> its
 plenty
 of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
 above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
 yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
>> that
 this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
>> atomic
 clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
 interest).Antonio I8IOV
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and

Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

2017-05-29 Thread Tim Shoppa 
Bob, unlike the guys who have many watts of 10MHz running around their labs
via multiple distribution amplifiers, I do not have a big problem with my
dinky 10MHz reference leaking into my radio antenna :-).

This fall the "best band" for WWV for me during daylight eclipse would be
15MHz. 10MHz would have a usable but weaker signal mid-day too.

I was thinking I could synthesize a clean 14.99MHz from my 10MHz, put that
into a mixer along with WWV at 15MHz, and send the 10kHz beat note into one
channel of a PC sound card. The other channel of the sound card could
monitor the Z3801A's 1PPS square wave output, or maybe just the square wave
from dividing 10MHz down to audio frequency square wave. That would allow
me to post-process out any variation in sound card clock.

I should read up on what the FMT guys do. They must do something like this.
I work Connie K5CM almost every week anyway but we are just exchanging
serial numbers, not talking about FMT techniques :-).

Tim N3QE

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty
> cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
> setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external
> clock
> input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10
> MHz.
> Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I
> would aim
> at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules
> out
> 15 MHz :)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> >
> > During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
> > shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
> > using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred
> microseconds
> > of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
> >
> > Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
> > too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
> > refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that
> would
> > let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation.
> If I
> > could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an
> ionospheric
> > effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
> > from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
> > location.
> >
> > Tim N3QE
> >
> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@febo.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
> >> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or
> that.
> >> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or
> not
> >> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
> >> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/
> journal/v402/n6763/full/
> >> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
> >> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
> >> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
> >> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
> >> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
> >> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
> >> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
> >> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using
> its
> >> plenty
> >> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
> >> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
> >> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe
> that
> >> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that
> atomic
> >> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
> >> interest).Antonio I8IOV
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Next Aug 21 eclipse and time flow --> WWV carrier phase

2017-05-29 Thread Bob kb8tq 
Hi

There are a *lot* of SDR boards out there today. The HackRF One is a pretty 
cheap one (you get what you pay for …). They go up to some very expensive
setups by National Instruments / Ettus. Most of them allow for an external clock
input. The usual isolation issues will still apply when checking WWV at 10 MHz. 
Coming up with isolation vs your local standard will be really tough. I would 
aim
at 5 and 15 MHz. Of course if you have a Lucent KS box, that sort of rules out
15 MHz :)

Bob



> On May 29, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> During regular night/day cycles I can just barely observe the night-day
> shift in WWV propagation from Colorado to my location near Washington DC,
> using the NTP WWV audio refclock. It amounts to a few hundred microseconds
> of shift. I last touched that code about 15 years ago.
> 
> Now that I have a 10MHz GPS OCXO (well, I've had that for about 15 years
> too, getting that was the reason I stopped dinking with the WWV audio
> refclock) I wonder if there's some simple hardware I could build that would
> let me do superior carrier-phase type measurements on WWV propagation. If I
> could see the night-day shift more clearly then I might see an ionospheric
> effect during the upcoming August 21 eclipse, which nicely traces a path
> from west to east not too far off the line between Ft Collins and my
> location.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:17 PM, iovane--- via time-nuts > wrote:
> 
>> On august 21 2017 a solar eclipse will sweep USA from coast to coast. A
>> lifetime opportunity to do coordinated experiments to check this or that.
>> One of the questions that doesn't have a final answer yet is whether or not
>> solar eclipses could affect the flow of time. They exist conflicting
>> reports: Negative: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6763/full/
>> 402749a0.html Positive: http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-1.pdf  http://home.t01.itscom.net/
>> allais/blackprior/zhou/zhou-2.pdfPersonally I believe that the positive
>> results were due to spurious responses of the atomic clocks to something
>> else than gravity, or the clocks failed for some reason (e.g. jumping
>> crystals then steered), or lower quality clocks had been sold to China.
>> Anyway the recorded data do show an anomaly.As far as I know, no atomic
>> clock tests are planned anywhere for that circumstance, but sincerely I
>> don't believe this is the truth.Maybe the US time-nuts community, using its
>> plenty
>> of atomic clocks, could give the final answer doing tests during the
>> above mentioned eclipse.US time-nuts, what about the idea of doing
>> yourselves a large scale coordinated test? Or do you actually believe that
>> this question is already definitively closed?(Even discovering that atomic
>> clocks might respond to someting else than gravity would be of great
>> interest).Antonio I8IOV
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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