Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Phase-locked Loop Circuit Design H. Wolaver: http://www.on4jln.be/pll_wolaver.pdf The long does not open as it should. Infact, when poking around your homepage it seems like several links has the same effect... not found. I found it on his site. Try this link. http://www.on4jln.be/infos/pll_wolaver = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Because the Rockwell-Collins HF80 has sensitivity and selectivity which are avaialble only in Ham gear costing 7000+ definitely not in the 'inexpensive' category, it's transmit signal is also far cleaner than most synthesized HF Rigs. So it makes sense to upgrade the reference oscillator to use this radio with more modern modes such as PSK31 and coherent CW. (Occupied bandwith less than 5 Hz) Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:39:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards Not knowing all the particulars and requirements, I may be off base, but instead of spending money trying to frequency stabilize a 20+ year old radio (HF-80), wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on a modern, inexpensive HF rig? You can even get a TCXO option for some rigs. This should be stable enough for most common HF data protocols. I assume that this is for Amateur use? If not, then my comments may not apply. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Oh I actually understand the radio. I was looking at the wenzel and will guess that would be quite expensive. This from a flea market junky. Regards On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:24 PM, scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote: Because the Rockwell-Collins HF80 has sensitivity and selectivity which are avaialble only in Ham gear costing 7000+ definitely not in the 'inexpensive' category, it's transmit signal is also far cleaner than most synthesized HF Rigs. So it makes sense to upgrade the reference oscillator to use this radio with more modern modes such as PSK31 and coherent CW. (Occupied bandwith less than 5 Hz) Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:39:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards Not knowing all the particulars and requirements, I may be off base, but instead of spending money trying to frequency stabilize a 20+ year old radio (HF-80), wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on a modern, inexpensive HF rig? You can even get a TCXO option for some rigs. This should be stable enough for most common HF data protocols. I assume that this is for Amateur use? If not, then my comments may not apply. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
I just looked up what it would take to build a 10:1 conjugate regenerative divider. This is not easy nor cheap. The conjugate number turn out to be f/10 and 9f/10. 9f/10 is close to f. Question for the group? What phase noise should be expected if a conventional PPL was used? I can't believe that a PLL derived 1Mhz reference is not good enough for a 30Mhz HF transmitter. Maybe different answer if the transmitter were microwave Not arguing, this is a real question. I'm wondering how good a simple and convention PLL is. My problem is that I do the calculations and it's not real world and I get perfect result. Just wondering how and what cause PPL to be not perfect and by how much. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:45 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Oh I actually understand the radio. I was looking at the wenzel and will guess that would be quite expensive. This from a flea market junky. Regards On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:24 PM, scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote: Because the Rockwell-Collins HF80 has sensitivity and selectivity which are avaialble only in Ham gear costing 7000+ definitely not in the 'inexpensive' category, it's transmit signal is also far cleaner than most synthesized HF Rigs. So it makes sense to upgrade the reference oscillator to use this radio with more modern modes such as PSK31 and coherent CW. (Occupied bandwith less than 5 Hz) Scott Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:39:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards Not knowing all the particulars and requirements, I may be off base, but instead of spending money trying to frequency stabilize a 20+ year old radio (HF-80), wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on a modern, inexpensive HF rig? You can even get a TCXO option for some rigs. This should be stable enough for most common HF data protocols. I assume that this is for Amateur use? If not, then my comments may not apply. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- = Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
On 12/23/2010 09:52 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: I just looked up what it would take to build a 10:1 conjugate regenerative divider. This is not easy nor cheap. The conjugate number turn out to be f/10 and 9f/10. 9f/10 is close to f. Filters for 1 MHz and 9 MHz with sufficient Q-value is cheap an straight-forward to design. The amplifier does not have to be spectacular. The part-count should be fairly low to meet your needs. Question for the group? What phase noise should be expected if a conventional PPL was used? I can't believe that a PLL derived 1Mhz reference is not good enough for a 30Mhz HF transmitter. Maybe different answer if the transmitter were microwave Not arguing, this is a real question. I'm wondering how good a simple and convention PLL is. My problem is that I do the calculations and it's not real world and I get perfect result. Just wondering how and what cause PPL to be not perfect and by how much. Look at the Wentzel dividers, it is essentially a divider with related signal treatment. You rarely use PLLs for division but for multiplications, which is not the same as saying you can't. It would just be overkill most of the times. A PLL without a divider but using a S/H phase-detector would be possible thought. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Hi Chris, From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com What phase noise should be expected if a conventional PPL was used? Phase-locked Loop Circuit Design H. Wolaver: http://www.on4jln.be/pll_wolaver.pdf Bye, Jean-Louis ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Dear Jean-Louis, On 12/24/2010 01:22 AM, Jean-Louis Noel wrote: Hi Chris, From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com What phase noise should be expected if a conventional PPL was used? Phase-locked Loop Circuit Design H. Wolaver: http://www.on4jln.be/pll_wolaver.pdf The long does not open as it should. Infact, when poking around your homepage it seems like several links has the same effect... not found. The Wolaver book is recommended reading and I have it, but it would be handy to have as PDF as well. Merry Christmas, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles1/Dividers/LNFDN.pdf -RL --- -- From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:03 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
I will bet 1 or 2 of those are quite a costs. On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Robert Lutwak rlut...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles1/Dividers/LNFDN.pdf -RL --- -- From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:03 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Question on GPS and reference standards
Not knowing all the particulars and requirements, I may be off base, but instead of spending money trying to frequency stabilize a 20+ year old radio (HF-80), wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on a modern, inexpensive HF rig? You can even get a TCXO option for some rigs. This should be stable enough for most common HF data protocols. I assume that this is for Amateur use? If not, then my comments may not apply. Joe Gray W5JG On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:48 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: A conjugate regenerative divider will have asinewave output. It only requires a mixer an amplifier or two and a couple of bandpass filters. It will have lower phase noise than all(?) alternative techniques. Bruce Tom Van Baak wrote: A good question for the group... /tvb Hi: I have both a GPS Frequency standard (Trimble Thunder Bolt) which outputs the 10 MHz reference and also the 1 PPS signal. In addition, I have a Collins AEU unit which has a 10 MHz Rubidium reference inside. Both units work well and produce a very accurate reference signal for the units that require a 10 MHz reference. The challenge is that I am looking for a source of a 10:1 frequency divider so I can create a 1 MHz reference for my Rockwell Collins HF-80 system. Can you suggest a source of a high quality frequency divider that outputs a (nearly) sine wave signal? We only need two units - one for production and one for our development lab. The object is to provide a very accurate source of 1 MHz and 10 MHz to the various radio systems used in our disaster and humanitarian relief radio network. When you send data, you need to be exactly on frequency. Any help would be great. Just need to be pointed in the right direction. While we could try to design something to meet this objective, I am sure that someone has already done this. Thank you. Kevin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
