Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control & ad-hoc IO from Windows.
> I have used MarshallSoft's serial IO library (WSC at > http://www.marshallsoft.com/ not free, but very good value and stable) > with both "Real" and USB<>RS232. You can't tell the difference for most > purposes, but avoid Belkin adapters. They seem to have some > "interesting omissions" in some of their USB drivers! FTDI seem to be > about the best chipsets to use, and the documentation is excellent from > FTDI's website. > http://www.ftdichip.com/ FTDI is the way to go, IMHO. Parallel ports were great back in the day, but even the I/O access code probably won't work on your next PC. On my desktop machine, they don't even pretend to associate the LPT port with its traditional ports. It's useful only with OS printer support. > Oh yes.. Also, since Win2k SP3 (I think) MS disabled by default any low > level (DOS mode) access to the COM ports. There is a registry tweak > that can re-enable such things but I've lost sight of it, as when we got > hit by that at work, I bit the bullet and learnt how to program in > Windows with Delphi, and re-wrote many of our tools and utilities > (originally written for DOS in QuickBasic) for Windows. It was painful, > but well worth it in the long term. http://www.beyondlogic.org/porttalk/porttalk.htm will work fine, as far as allowing your Windows app to bit-bang the ports goes. But Bill only knows what it would take to get it working under Vista, and, again, the trend is away from legacy LPT-port compatibility at the hardware level. > Don't let MS's latest bloatware OS's put you off from experimenting with > IO on modern PC's. Well, in principle, I/O protection is one of those security features that MS would be roundly mocked for lacking, if they hadn't implemented it by now. -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control & ad-hoc IO from Windows.
Just some general info on the subject of ad-hoc/experimental IO from within the Windows environment. I personally think, that if you want to keep a T'Bolt at a constant temp, it's best done with an independent control system (hardware or software) than any attached PC. In the long term anyway. However, to prove the point, and for general experimental messing and fiddling... Take a look at INPOUT32.DLL http://logix4u.net/Legacy_Ports/Parallel_Port/Inpout32.dll_for_Windows_9 8/2000/NT/XP.html It allows you to have almost direct control of any IO space port the system has. Common "targets" for this are otherwise unused LPT ports, but it has to be a "Real" hardware port, not a USB<>LPT device. (You can still send control bytes to those via the OS though, and read the status likewise, but the delays can be a pain!) It will pass through commands and data if running on a Win9X system, or install a Kernel mode driver on a NT (2k, XP, etc) system. You can use just about any common programming language to drive it, so long as can call external DLL routines and pass data to, and receive it back from such routines. There is a "Huge" amount of info on t'interweb, about how to use the venerable LPT port for general purpose digital IO. Otherwise, take a look at any of the USB<>Digital IO experimental kits that abound the web. In this case, if the T'Bolt can report it's internal temperature over RS232 as you describe, then using a serial port, with one or more of the handshake lines "re purposed" to control the heater/cooler should do the job, you just need to get a bit creative. Though many Windows based SW development languages are poor in their handling for COM ports, it is possible, and once you have the grasp of how to directly manipulate the port via the OS, things like that work very well. (Some versions of VB though have some interesting "Features" in the way they handle the serial port, that can really annoy you, just to make it difficult to send/receive binary data. ASCII OK, Binary seems to get some bytes filtered out!) DO NOT try to command IO ports directly on NT systems from your own code. They will at best object with a popup, at worst crash with a BSOD, or just reboot on you unexpectedly! You will need something like INPOUT32.DLL (or other similar tools.) Even then, sometimes unless you tell the OS you are going to use the port, there can still be trouble. Best with COM ports, to go via the OS, at least it'll be aware of what you are doing, so should prevent any other app from trying to grab it. I recently implemented a 4bit IO control bus via the LPT port, to interface to an old ICOM HF receiver to a much newer control system. It works well, and is stable for weeks/months at a time... It even survives a reboot without screwing up, and it doesn't just sit there dormant all the time, as it is controlled and polled repeatedly from another program, with the inter-program communication via some virtual com ports courtesy of Eterlogic's VSPE tool. http://www.eterlogic.com/Products.VSPE.html or N8VB's virtual null modem. http://www.philcovington.com/SDR.html Scroll down to "Open Source Software". I have used MarshallSoft's serial IO library (WSC at http://www.marshallsoft.com/ not free, but very good value and stable) with both "Real" and USB<>RS232. You can't tell the difference for most purposes, but avoid Belkin adapters. They seem to have some "interesting omissions" in some of their USB drivers! FTDI seem to be about the best chipsets to use, and the documentation is excellent from FTDI's website. http://www.ftdichip.com/ There are also USB<> Parallel IO chipsets too. I've yet to need to explore them With both real or USB<>RS232 ports, with the Marshallsoft library (and with my own native Win/Delphi code) I have had simultaneous serial IO, and used the DTR/RTS lines as power and control lines for a hardware interface, swapping them over +-/-+ to control TX/RX on a radio as well. No problems. In some ways, once you have all the needed code baggage in place, it's easier in Windows to do that sort of stuff, than it ever was with DOS. It just eats more memory to do so. (But looks nice!) Oh yes.. Also, since Win2k SP3 (I think) MS disabled by default any low level (DOS mode) access to the COM ports. There is a registry tweak that can re-enable such things but I've lost sight of it, as when we got hit by that at work, I bit the bullet and learnt how to program in Windows with Delphi, and re-wrote many of our tools and utilities (originally written for DOS in QuickBasic) for Windows. It was painful, but well worth it in the long term. Don't let MS's latest bloatware OS's put you off from experimenting with IO on modern PC's. If anything, with the later GUI OS's and some good (sadly not all dev' tools are "good", paid for or otherwise) SW development tools, you can still take over the world in odd ways, as you wish. Ulrich's EZGPIB tool, also has easy serial port h
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Neville My responses to your well stated and mostly accurate 2c worth, even though much of it does not apply to this situation. > I cannot remember the term in a PID equation that accounts for time delay. Yea, pretty hard to remember, It called "Delay" on Smith predictor type of PID. Sounds like you also missed where I wrote "with a MODIFIED PID TYPE of S/W controller". > Thermal control must face some nasty delay functions Turns out for this application, a pretty basic type of PID works very well because the sensor has very high resolution and low noise, perfect for a large derivative term and the main temp TC is very slow and very dominate. No true delay going on just some slower faster Time constants that don't effect much. >It is the wrong algorithm for controlling almost any heater! Probable get some disagreement from any OXCO manufacture on that. > It is excellent for driving pens in pen recorders where mass, ... In fact a basic PID is not excellent for controlling much of anything, there are much better ways, BUT It can be adjusted to drive just about anything, which is one reason it is used so much. >I would suggest controlling the air temperature around the case. I agree that is the standard way and would work fine. However there are many advantages to heating the case and using the internal sensor instead. Some of which are Lower power, faster warm-up, less parts, it gets rid of that BIG delay TC you were referring to, does not need a fan, does not need a box, etc, etc. One of the things that makes the internal sensor control work so well is its better than 0.001 deg resolution. >by controlling the air temperature you will control the entire case of the >TBOLT. Not necessary so unless until you add your 'local tornado of air" Don't need that with the case heater. > (controlling air temp) will have much faster response You may want to re-think the way you said that statement because it is VERY wrong. > Air controls the case of the OCXO, voltage regulators and not just the > temperature sensors. In some situations controlling the internal temp sensor instead of air or case temp will work better. In this case it does not matter much, either are plenty good enough. EXCEPT if the low resolution sensor is in the Tbolt like in all the new ones, in which case its better to keep the sensor constant so that 'Bad stuff' does nopt happen when it takes it giant steps. > your best control algorithm uses the inverse transfer function of the thermal > system to predict a somewhat tardy response. If you want simple and 'good enough', a simple PD works fine here. Bottom line You should try it, It's easy top assemble and works good. If you need any help or have any problems with it let me know. > There, I have had my 2c worth, cheers, Neville Michie Thanks, and Now I have had my 2c also, and double cheers to you Have fun, ws "Neville Michie" namic...@gmail.com > Hi, > your problem should be to adjust to physical reality, then you may > be able to control you TBOLT temperature. > I cannot remember the term in a PID equation that accounts for time delay. > In fact there is not one! It is the wrong algorithm for controlling almost > any heater! > It is excellent for driving pens in pen recorders where mass, velocity and > position > are the terms. > Thermal control must face some nasty delay functions, like Gauss's error > function. > When the temperature error signal is delayed, as in the TBOLT, your best > control algorithm > uses the inverse transfer function of the thermal system to predict a > somewhat tardy response. > An alternative method that works very well is to create an isothermal wall > around the TBOLT > which is held at constant temperature. I would suggest your light bulb and a > small > computer fan to create a local tornado of air around the TBOLT and by > controlling the > air temperature you will control the entire case of the TBOLT. This will have > much > faster response and may control the case of the OCXO, voltage regulators and > not > just the temperature sensors. > There, I have had my 2c worth, > cheers, Neville Michie > > > > > On 27/08/2009, at 5:56 AM, WarrenS wrote: > >> >> This can also be made to work on the TBolt units that have the 1/2 >> deg course Temp sensor. >> The control loop gets a bit trickier, but it can hold the Temp very >> close at one its course transitions points. >> This would come in handy for those not wanting to change their >> sensor to the high resolution type. >> >> Another useful feature to add to a completely independent micro >> controller so that it needs no other inputs is to have its program >> smart enough to automatically and slowly readjust its set point >> control Temperature to just above the highest day to day Peak temp >> it sees. Needs no extra inputs, It just needs to monitor its own >> PID loop to see if it even comes out of control due
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Hi, your problem should be to adjust to physical reality, then you may be able to control you TBOLT temperature. I cannot remember the term in a PID equation that accounts for time delay. In fact there is not one! It is the wrong algorithm for controlling almost any heater! It is excellent for driving pens in pen recorders where mass, velocity and position are the terms. Thermal control must face some nasty delay functions, like Gauss's error function. When the temperature error signal is delayed, as in the TBOLT, your best control algorithm uses the inverse transfer function of the thermal system to predict a somewhat tardy response. An alternative method that works very well is to create an isothermal wall around the TBOLT which is held at constant temperature. I would suggest your light bulb and a small computer fan to create a local tornado of air around the TBOLT and by controlling the air temperature you will control the entire case of the TBOLT. This will have much faster response and may control the case of the OCXO, voltage regulators and not just the temperature sensors. There, I have had my 2c worth, cheers, Neville Michie On 27/08/2009, at 5:56 AM, WarrenS wrote: This can also be made to work on the TBolt units that have the 1/2 deg course Temp sensor. The control loop gets a bit trickier, but it can hold the Temp very close at one its course transitions points. This would come in handy for those not wanting to change their sensor to the high resolution type. Another useful feature to add to a completely independent micro controller so that it needs no other inputs is to have its program smart enough to automatically and slowly readjust its set point control Temperature to just above the highest day to day Peak temp it sees. Needs no extra inputs, It just needs to monitor its own PID loop to see if it even comes out of control due to excess temp. Note you do not have to pass anything thru or output any RS232, just the ONE bit if the micro is going to control the temp out bit. It just needs to pick up the Tbolt output data in parallel and capture the Temp info. If the micro is not doing the Temp control then there is no need to have the extra micro. ws Don Latham djl at montana.com Wed Aug 26 17:38:21 UTC 2009 Heck, Warren, I'll put it on the line :-). Use a very simple and cheap processor such as a Picaxe, pass the rs232 through it to Lady Heather etc, and capture the temperature, using it appropriately. Should work nicely and keeps the temp control local. Even put a little LED on it to indicate state. Don ** TBolt Nuts To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has minimal effect on it, I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 deg. To do it better and make it more hi tech, I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal sensor. What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature sensor output data, and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater &/or cooler on off. The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating up to about 4 Watt, mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is a small fan blowing at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the TBolt's internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature range. A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase noise due to it's vibration. Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal temperature sensor, a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second works great for control, No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added microprocessor that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program such as Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily available digital bit? Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my capability. I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to control an existing Digital bit that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used to monitor the Tbolt. One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, but I'd like to keep it
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
I use the System.IO.Ports.SerialPort.RtsEnable property If you're doing input (e.g. looking for a 1pps), I would imagine you'd use the PinChangedEvent. I haven't tried it or looked at the timing. These exist in all .NET frameworks from 2.0 onwards. If you want to use the Windows API directly, EscapeCommFunction(hFile,SETRTS) would presumably work. James Lux, P.E. Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 +1(818)354-2075 phone +1(818)393-6875 fax > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Scott Newell > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:48 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control > > At 03:34 PM 8/26/2009 , Mark Sims wrote: > > > > > >The problem is with the Windows code. I don't know how to reliably > control the modem signals under Windows... perhaps John Miles would > know. > Most Windows users use USB- > > EscapeCommFunction()? > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
At 03:34 PM 8/26/2009 , Mark Sims wrote: > > >The problem is with the Windows code. I don't know how to reliably control the modem signals under Windows... perhaps John Miles would know. Most Windows users use USB- EscapeCommFunction()? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
> -Original Message- > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On > Behalf Of Mark Sims > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:35 PM > To: time-nuts@febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control > > > Putting the PID stuff into Lady Heather is no problem (if you write the > algorithm). It would be pretty trivial to drop it into the DOS > version. It would be best if a single control line would either heat > or cool (no OFF state). Even simpler, keep the fan stirring the air > all the time. Apply heat when needed. > > The problem is with the Windows code. I don't know how to reliably > control the modem signals under Windows... perhaps John Miles would > know. Most Windows users use USB-RS232 converters and these are > infamous for their flakey control signals. Which Windows? Or more properly, which flavor of .NET? I've had fairly good luck with the later .NET incarnations (>=2) even with USB/Serial dongles. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Putting the PID stuff into Lady Heather is no problem (if you write the algorithm). It would be pretty trivial to drop it into the DOS version. It would be best if a single control line would either heat or cool (no OFF state). Even simpler, keep the fan stirring the air all the time. Apply heat when needed. The problem is with the Windows code. I don't know how to reliably control the modem signals under Windows... perhaps John Miles would know. Most Windows users use USB-RS232 converters and these are infamous for their flakey control signals. I think the most reliable way would be a small micro that monitored the TSIP strings from the Tbolt and picked off the message that has the temperature field. Ideally a Peltier device driven by an H bridge motor controller would control the heating and cooling. By insulating the Tbolt in a foil covered cardboard box, you should be able to keep the a/c and heating induced temperature swings under 0.1C. It is these short term swings that the Tbolt seems most sensitive to. _ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=PID23391::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HYGN_faster:082009 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
This can also be made to work on the TBolt units that have the 1/2 deg course Temp sensor. The control loop gets a bit trickier, but it can hold the Temp very close at one its course transitions points. This would come in handy for those not wanting to change their sensor to the high resolution type. Another useful feature to add to a completely independent micro controller so that it needs no other inputs is to have its program smart enough to automatically and slowly readjust its set point control Temperature to just above the highest day to day Peak temp it sees. Needs no extra inputs, It just needs to monitor its own PID loop to see if it even comes out of control due to excess temp. Note you do not have to pass anything thru or output any RS232, just the ONE bit if the micro is going to control the temp out bit. It just needs to pick up the Tbolt output data in parallel and capture the Temp info. If the micro is not doing the Temp control then there is no need to have the extra micro. ws >Don Latham djl at montana.com >Wed Aug 26 17:38:21 UTC 2009 >Heck, Warren, I'll put it on the line :-). Use a very simple and cheap >processor such as a Picaxe, pass the rs232 through it to Lady Heather etc, >and capture the temperature, using it appropriately. Should work nicely >and keeps the temp control local. Even put a little LED on it to indicate >state. >Don ** > TBolt Nuts > > To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has > minimal effect on it, > I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) > connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. > It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 > deg. > To do it better and make it more hi tech, > I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal > sensor. > > What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature > sensor output data, > and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater > &/or cooler on off. > > The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating > up to about 4 Watt, > mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is > a small fan blowing > at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. > Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the > TBolt's > internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature > range. > A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase > noise due to it's vibration. > > Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal > temperature sensor, > a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second > works great for control, > No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, > I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, > such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). > This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added > microprocessor > that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, > can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program > such as > Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily > available digital bit? > > Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. > Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my > capability. > I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to > control an existing Digital bit > that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used > to monitor the Tbolt. > One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, > but I'd like to keep it even simpler than that, Any suggestions? > > If anyone is interested in developing a program to make an existing stand > alone micro > or basic stamp to include this function they can contact me off line for > some sugestions. > > Thanks, > ws > ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Another useful feature to add to a completely independent micro controller so that it needs no other inputs is to have its program smart enough to automatically and slowly readjust its set point control Temperature to just above the highest day to day Peak temp it sees. Needs no extra inputs, It just needs to monitor its own PID loop to see if it even comes out of control due to excess temp. warren Wrote: Note you do not have to pass anything thru or output any RS232, just the ONE bit if the micro is going to control the temp out bit. It just needs to pick up the Tbolt output data in parallel and capture the Temp info. If the micro is not doing the Temp control then there is no need to have the extra micro. ws Don Latham djl at montana.com Wed Aug 26 17:38:21 UTC 2009 a.. Previous message: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control b.. Next message: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Heck, Warren, I'll put it on the line :-). Use a very simple and cheap processor such as a Picaxe, pass the rs232 through it to Lady Heather etc, and capture the temperature, using it appropriately. Should work nicely and keeps the temp control local. Even put a little LED on it to indicate state. Don WarrenS > TBolt Nuts > > To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has > minimal effect on it, > I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) > connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. > It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 > deg. > To do it better and make it more hi tech, > I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal > sensor. > > What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature > sensor output data, > and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater > &/or cooler on off. > > The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating > up to about 4 Watt, > mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is > a small fan blowing > at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. > Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the > TBolt's > internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature > range. > A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase > noise due to it's vibration. > > Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal > temperature sensor, > a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second > works great for control, > No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, > I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, > such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). > This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added > microprocessor > that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, > can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program > such as > Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily > available digital bit? > > Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. > Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my > capability. > I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to > control an existing Digital bit > that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used > to monitor the Tbolt. > One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, > but I'd like to keep it even simpler than that, Any suggestions? > > If anyone is interested in developing a program to make an existing stand > alone micro > or basic stamp to include this function they can contact me off line for > some sugestions. > > Thanks, > ws > ** > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Note you do not have to pass anything thru or output any RS232, just the ONE bit if the micro is going to control the temp out bit. It just needs to pick up the Tbolt output data in parallel and capture the Temp info. If the micro is not doing the Temp control then there is no need to have the extra micro. ws Don Latham said: Heck, Warren, I'll put it on the line :-). Use a very simple and cheap processor such as a Picaxe, pass the rs232 through it to Lady Heather etc, and capture the temperature, using it appropriately. Should work nicely and keeps the temp control local. Even put a little LED on it to indicate state. Don WarrenS > TBolt Nuts > > To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has > minimal effect on it, > I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) > connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. > It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 > deg. > To do it better and make it more hi tech, > I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal > sensor. > > What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature > sensor output data, > and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater > &/or cooler on off. > > The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating > up to about 4 Watt, > mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is > a small fan blowing > at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. > Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the > TBolt's > internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature > range. > A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase > noise due to it's vibration. > > Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal > temperature sensor, > a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second > works great for control, > No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, > I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, > such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). > This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added > microprocessor > that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, > can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program > such as > Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily > available digital bit? > > Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. > Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my > capability. > I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to > control an existing Digital bit > that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used > to monitor the Tbolt. > One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, > but I'd like to keep it even simpler than that, Any suggestions? > > If anyone is interested in developing a program to make an existing stand > alone micro > or basic stamp to include this function they can contact me off line for > some sugestions. > > Thanks, > ws > ** > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
Heck, Warren, I'll put it on the line :-). Use a very simple and cheap processor such as a Picaxe, pass the rs232 through it to Lady Heather etc, and capture the temperature, using it appropriately. Should work nicely and keeps the temp control local. Even put a little LED on it to indicate state. Don WarrenS > TBolt Nuts > > To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has > minimal effect on it, > I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) > connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. > It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 > deg. > To do it better and make it more hi tech, > I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal > sensor. > > What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature > sensor output data, > and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater > &/or cooler on off. > > The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating > up to about 4 Watt, > mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is > a small fan blowing > at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. > Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the > TBolt's > internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature > range. > A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase > noise due to it's vibration. > > Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal > temperature sensor, > a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second > works great for control, > No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, > I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, > such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). > This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added > microprocessor > that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, > can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program > such as > Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily > available digital bit? > > Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. > Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my > capability. > I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to > control an existing Digital bit > that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used > to monitor the Tbolt. > One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, > but I'd like to keep it even simpler than that, Any suggestions? > > If anyone is interested in developing a program to make an existing stand > alone micro > or basic stamp to include this function they can contact me off line for > some sugestions. > > Thanks, > ws > ** > > > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Tbolt temperature Control
TBolt Nuts To keep My TBolt's temperature constant so that the environment has minimal effect on it, I use an aquarium temperature controller (modified to have low hysteresis) connected to a low wattage light bulb, placed in a box with the TBolt. It works OK and keeps the TBolt's temperature constant to well under 1 deg. To do it better and make it more hi tech, I'd like to have the temperature control based on the TBolt's internal sensor. What I have found works well is to use the TBolt's own RS232 temperature sensor output data, and with a modified PID type of S/W controller, turn an external heater &/or cooler on off. The heater can be an appropriate power resistor or transistor dissipating up to about 4 Watt, mounted to the TBolt case. What I use to cool the Tbolt up to 5 deg C, is a small fan blowing at a heatsink mounted on the top of the TBolt's case. Turning the fan on & off with a S/W driven switch, can be used to keep the TBolt's internal temperature very constant over a limited external temperature range. A standard PC chip fan & heatsink may be OK, if it does not add Phase noise due to it's vibration. Because of the long time constant and slow response of the internal temperature sensor, a single digital on-off bit, updated at a max rate of once per second works great for control, No analog needed. To keep the hardware and interface circuit simple, I'd like to be able to use one of the unused standard RS232 outputs, such as RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR as the heater/cooler control bit(s). This is no problem when doing this in a DOS program or from an added microprocessor that monitors the Tbolt's communications, But the question is, can it be done in Windows in such a way that a modified existing program such as Lady Heather or Tbolt monitor could control an already existing readily available digital bit? Being a control person, Doing a software algorithm is the easy part. Making Windows do any kind of non standard I/O control, is way above my capability. I'd like to get feedback from a Windows expert if there is a simple way to control an existing Digital bit that would be available on a PC being used in a typical setup that is used to monitor the Tbolt. One way I have heard suggested is to use the sound card output, but I'd like to keep it even simpler than that, Any suggestions? If anyone is interested in developing a program to make an existing stand alone micro or basic stamp to include this function they can contact me off line for some sugestions. Thanks, ws ** ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
