Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic --> USB-C

[Neil Schroeder]

It's definitely no optional.  The TI part is designed for that. Not sure
about the others.

The HV bus is definitely optional - but most stationary devices - hosts,
docks,etc can supply that no issue

I would say that we will see big values on the HV bus from AC mains powered
devices.

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The point that was made by the OP was that the new USB-C spec starts out
> with a “3A default” rather than
> 500 ma. Since this stuff is just hitting the market, only time will tell
> how the vendors decide to handle that
> “requirement” with multi port gizmos.
>
> With (now apparently obsolete) USB-3.0, hubs in the 8 and up range are
> indeed out on the market.
> I *assume* that the large port count stuff will also show up for USB-C.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Jim Lux >
> wrote:
> >
> > On 6/2/15 4:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> The one thing I would be a bit careful about is the power levels.
> >>
> >> Consider an 8 port hub:
> >>
> >> 5V 3A from each would be 24A total. That’s pretty unusual. Most hubs
> >> give you one or two high current outputs.
> >
> > There are very few 8 port hubs and lots of 7 port hubs (at least for USB
> 1 and 2).  A 7 port hub is two 4 port hubs daisy chained.  For commercial
> products, most (if not all, I've not checked for sure) have only 2 of the
> high power jacks.
> >
> > The power switching and control protocol is non-trivial, especially if
> you are connecting and disconnecting devices. On windows (and other OSes,
> too, I imagine) there's a whole thing where the OS tries to keep track of
> the state of the whole tree of USB devices, so that it doesn't try to send
> a "power up" message to a device that downstream of a "powered down" hub
> until it's sent the "hub power up" message.
> >
> > There's also some weird (and entirely within spec, apparently) behavior
> of a hub where it, say, has 1.2 Amp total capability, so the first two 0.5
> Amp devices that are plugged in get the full allocation, and the rest do
> not get the "high power" acknowledgement.  Plugging in a combination of
> high and low power devices (or, equivalently, enabling and disabling them)
> can lead to things sometimes working and sometimes not.  (the Knapsack
> problem, which this sort of is, is NP hard, after all)
> >
> > I've also found devices/hubs that seem to use some sort of ad-hoc power
> allocation scheme (actually measuring the power drawn, as opposed to just
> saying "high power (500mA)" and "low power(100mA)" devices when querying
> the device and/or looking at the pullup/pulldown  on D+/D-
> >
> > One reference says "All USB devices enumerate as low-power devices at
> first. After enumeration, the host examines the bMaxPower field of the
> configuration descriptor for the device. If bMaxPower indicates that the
> device is high-power, and the power is available, the host allows the
> device to transition to high-power"
> >
> > the whole "if power is available" might be done in real time.
> >
> > And this causes real issues if you have a USB powered device that has
> multiple power modes (I have a bunch of radar modules that started out
> being USB powered, and have a low power "idle" mode and a high power
> "transmitter and receiver on" mode)
> >
> >
> > There's some complexity also with "bus powered" vs "self powered" hubs.
> A bus powered only gets 500mA from upstream, so cannot really support any
> downstream devices at 500mA: therefore, 100mA for each of the 4 downstream
> devices, and 100mA for the hub itself (if needed).
> >
> >
> > In any case, USB power management (and hub and device state management)
> is substantially more complex than one might think, and lame software
> drivers in the host can make it more complex; particularly if, as in most
> modern systems, there's lots of power management going on for hibernation
> and sleep modes.
> >
> >
> > There's a whole bunch of command line commands for Windows to manage
> this explicitly (if you don't want to use "device manager").  If you're
> doing a lot of USB stuff on windows, you NEED the devcon command, which
> gives a lot more visibility into the enumeration and hierarchy.
> >
> > USB power management http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817900
> >
> > devcon command:  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272
> >
> > googling "Windows USB power management" will turn up a lot of info, too.
> >
> >
> > devcon can also be used to deal with USB COM ports that move around or
> disappear and reappear.
> >
> > I have a system that has 5 Teensy 3.1 microcontrollers hooked to it via
> USB (emulating a very fast serial port).  The problem is that when the
> microcontroller changes USB device types depending on whether it's in
> "bootloader" mode or "running an Arduino program" mode.
> >
> > I think devcon might also be a good way to suppress the notorious "GPS
> masquerading as a Microsoft Serial Mouse" problem which is quite annoying.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> 20V 

Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic --> USB-C

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The point that was made by the OP was that the new USB-C spec starts out with a 
“3A default” rather than
500 ma. Since this stuff is just hitting the market, only time will tell how 
the vendors decide to handle that 
“requirement” with multi port gizmos. 

With (now apparently obsolete) USB-3.0, hubs in the 8 and up range are indeed 
out on the market.
I *assume* that the large port count stuff will also show up for USB-C. 

Bob

> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Jim Lux  wrote:
> 
> On 6/2/15 4:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The one thing I would be a bit careful about is the power levels.
>> 
>> Consider an 8 port hub:
>> 
>> 5V 3A from each would be 24A total. That’s pretty unusual. Most hubs
>> give you one or two high current outputs.
> 
> There are very few 8 port hubs and lots of 7 port hubs (at least for USB 1 
> and 2).  A 7 port hub is two 4 port hubs daisy chained.  For commercial 
> products, most (if not all, I've not checked for sure) have only 2 of the 
> high power jacks.
> 
> The power switching and control protocol is non-trivial, especially if you 
> are connecting and disconnecting devices. On windows (and other OSes, too, I 
> imagine) there's a whole thing where the OS tries to keep track of the state 
> of the whole tree of USB devices, so that it doesn't try to send a "power up" 
> message to a device that downstream of a "powered down" hub until it's sent 
> the "hub power up" message.
> 
> There's also some weird (and entirely within spec, apparently) behavior of a 
> hub where it, say, has 1.2 Amp total capability, so the first two 0.5 Amp 
> devices that are plugged in get the full allocation, and the rest do not get 
> the "high power" acknowledgement.  Plugging in a combination of high and low 
> power devices (or, equivalently, enabling and disabling them) can lead to 
> things sometimes working and sometimes not.  (the Knapsack problem, which 
> this sort of is, is NP hard, after all)
> 
> I've also found devices/hubs that seem to use some sort of ad-hoc power 
> allocation scheme (actually measuring the power drawn, as opposed to just 
> saying "high power (500mA)" and "low power(100mA)" devices when querying the 
> device and/or looking at the pullup/pulldown  on D+/D-
> 
> One reference says "All USB devices enumerate as low-power devices at first. 
> After enumeration, the host examines the bMaxPower field of the configuration 
> descriptor for the device. If bMaxPower indicates that the device is 
> high-power, and the power is available, the host allows the device to 
> transition to high-power"
> 
> the whole "if power is available" might be done in real time.
> 
> And this causes real issues if you have a USB powered device that has 
> multiple power modes (I have a bunch of radar modules that started out being 
> USB powered, and have a low power "idle" mode and a high power "transmitter 
> and receiver on" mode)
> 
> 
> There's some complexity also with "bus powered" vs "self powered" hubs.  A 
> bus powered only gets 500mA from upstream, so cannot really support any 
> downstream devices at 500mA: therefore, 100mA for each of the 4 downstream 
> devices, and 100mA for the hub itself (if needed).
> 
> 
> In any case, USB power management (and hub and device state management) is 
> substantially more complex than one might think, and lame software drivers in 
> the host can make it more complex; particularly if, as in most modern 
> systems, there's lots of power management going on for hibernation and sleep 
> modes.
> 
> 
> There's a whole bunch of command line commands for Windows to manage this 
> explicitly (if you don't want to use "device manager").  If you're doing a 
> lot of USB stuff on windows, you NEED the devcon command, which gives a lot 
> more visibility into the enumeration and hierarchy.
> 
> USB power management http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817900
> 
> devcon command:  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272
> 
> googling "Windows USB power management" will turn up a lot of info, too.
> 
> 
> devcon can also be used to deal with USB COM ports that move around or 
> disappear and reappear.
> 
> I have a system that has 5 Teensy 3.1 microcontrollers hooked to it via USB 
> (emulating a very fast serial port).  The problem is that when the 
> microcontroller changes USB device types depending on whether it's in 
> "bootloader" mode or "running an Arduino program" mode.
> 
> I think devcon might also be a good way to suppress the notorious "GPS 
> masquerading as a Microsoft Serial Mouse" problem which is quite annoying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 20V 5A (100W ea) on 8 ports would be 800W. That’s not going to be cheap.
>> 
>> Yes, the 20V is an “optional” part of the whole thing. The 3A does not appear
>> to be quite so easy to ignore. We’ll see what actually happens …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On May 30, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Neil Schroeder  wrote:
>>> 
>>> USB-C will offer a number of things that I believe will be of benefit to
>>> time nuts e

Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic --> USB-C

[Jim Lux]

On 6/2/15 4:07 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

The one thing I would be a bit careful about is the power levels.

Consider an 8 port hub:

5V 3A from each would be 24A total. That’s pretty unusual. Most hubs
give you one or two high current outputs.


There are very few 8 port hubs and lots of 7 port hubs (at least for USB 
1 and 2).  A 7 port hub is two 4 port hubs daisy chained.  For 
commercial products, most (if not all, I've not checked for sure) have 
only 2 of the high power jacks.


The power switching and control protocol is non-trivial, especially if 
you are connecting and disconnecting devices. On windows (and other 
OSes, too, I imagine) there's a whole thing where the OS tries to keep 
track of the state of the whole tree of USB devices, so that it doesn't 
try to send a "power up" message to a device that downstream of a 
"powered down" hub until it's sent the "hub power up" message.


There's also some weird (and entirely within spec, apparently) behavior 
of a hub where it, say, has 1.2 Amp total capability, so the first two 
0.5 Amp devices that are plugged in get the full allocation, and the 
rest do not get the "high power" acknowledgement.  Plugging in a 
combination of high and low power devices (or, equivalently, enabling 
and disabling them) can lead to things sometimes working and sometimes 
not.  (the Knapsack problem, which this sort of is, is NP hard, after all)


I've also found devices/hubs that seem to use some sort of ad-hoc power 
allocation scheme (actually measuring the power drawn, as opposed to 
just saying "high power (500mA)" and "low power(100mA)" devices when 
querying the device and/or looking at the pullup/pulldown  on D+/D-


One reference says "All USB devices enumerate as low-power devices at 
first. After enumeration, the host examines the bMaxPower field of the 
configuration descriptor for the device. If bMaxPower indicates that the 
device is high-power, and the power is available, the host allows the 
device to transition to high-power"


the whole "if power is available" might be done in real time.

And this causes real issues if you have a USB powered device that has 
multiple power modes (I have a bunch of radar modules that started out 
being USB powered, and have a low power "idle" mode and a high power 
"transmitter and receiver on" mode)



There's some complexity also with "bus powered" vs "self powered" hubs. 
 A bus powered only gets 500mA from upstream, so cannot really support 
any downstream devices at 500mA: therefore, 100mA for each of the 4 
downstream devices, and 100mA for the hub itself (if needed).



In any case, USB power management (and hub and device state management) 
is substantially more complex than one might think, and lame software 
drivers in the host can make it more complex; particularly if, as in 
most modern systems, there's lots of power management going on for 
hibernation and sleep modes.



There's a whole bunch of command line commands for Windows to manage 
this explicitly (if you don't want to use "device manager").  If you're 
doing a lot of USB stuff on windows, you NEED the devcon command, which 
gives a lot more visibility into the enumeration and hierarchy.


USB power management http://support.microsoft.com/kb/817900

devcon command:  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/311272

googling "Windows USB power management" will turn up a lot of info, too.


devcon can also be used to deal with USB COM ports that move around or 
disappear and reappear.


I have a system that has 5 Teensy 3.1 microcontrollers hooked to it via 
USB (emulating a very fast serial port).  The problem is that when the 
microcontroller changes USB device types depending on whether it's in 
"bootloader" mode or "running an Arduino program" mode.


I think devcon might also be a good way to suppress the notorious "GPS 
masquerading as a Microsoft Serial Mouse" problem which is quite annoying.











20V 5A (100W ea) on 8 ports would be 800W. That’s not going to be cheap.

Yes, the 20V is an “optional” part of the whole thing. The 3A does not appear
to be quite so easy to ignore. We’ll see what actually happens …..

Bob


On May 30, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Neil Schroeder  wrote:

USB-C will offer a number of things that I believe will be of benefit to
time nuts everywhere:

1) High current 5V up to 3A on every port
2) High voltage/current up to 20V/5A optionally on every port - sufficient
to power some rubidium oscillators natively, and a small boost to get the
rest of them.
3) a native UART channel - no more freaky USB interrupts/polling to get
your pulses
4) single omnipurpose connector ends with no insertion dependencies
5) Better, simpler device enumeration - while I haven't seen how it
addresses this personally, the stuff i have read is very promising.

Due to the switched controller nature of the interface, you should have
less nonstandard crap that may cause your computer to hang or other issues
related to drivers. The controller arbitrates a lot

Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic --> USB-C

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The one thing I would be a bit careful about is the power levels. 

Consider an 8 port hub:

5V 3A from each would be 24A total. That’s pretty unusual. Most hubs
give you one or two high current outputs. 

20V 5A (100W ea) on 8 ports would be 800W. That’s not going to be cheap.

Yes, the 20V is an “optional” part of the whole thing. The 3A does not appear 
to be quite so easy to ignore. We’ll see what actually happens …..

Bob

> On May 30, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Neil Schroeder  wrote:
> 
> USB-C will offer a number of things that I believe will be of benefit to
> time nuts everywhere:
> 
> 1) High current 5V up to 3A on every port
> 2) High voltage/current up to 20V/5A optionally on every port - sufficient
> to power some rubidium oscillators natively, and a small boost to get the
> rest of them.
> 3) a native UART channel - no more freaky USB interrupts/polling to get
> your pulses
> 4) single omnipurpose connector ends with no insertion dependencies
> 5) Better, simpler device enumeration - while I haven't seen how it
> addresses this personally, the stuff i have read is very promising.
> 
> Due to the switched controller nature of the interface, you should have
> less nonstandard crap that may cause your computer to hang or other issues
> related to drivers. The controller arbitrates a lot more setup details, and
> the number of those on the market will be limited compared to usb
> peripheral ICs.
> 
> This may be off topic from your off topic, but it seemed a good opportunity
> to share this  info.
> 
> NS9
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[David J Taylor]

[]
The RPi doesn't seem to have a good reliability record, so that doesn't seem 
like the solution.


Thanks time-nuts, what a resource.

Cash Olsen
___

Very few problems with multiple RPi cards here.

Most of the problem reports I've seen have been from either:

- inadequate power supplies.  Note that the better ones have a 5.25V 2A 
capacity, allowing for some drop in the USB-micro-USB cable, and some people 
have been running power-hungry HDs off the USB ports.  Two years back the 
RPi had rather limited USB power, not so on today's hardware.


- SD cards - cheap or not well mounted.  The RPi 2 uses a micro-SD card with 
a much more secure mounting.


Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk 


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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Cash Olsen]

I'd like to thank time-nuts for all of the information and advice I
received on and off list. I have stabilized my situation, I was able remove
all of the unused devices in the list (hidden) and now have many new tools
/ techniques to maintain the USB list.

I'm going to transfer most of the USB functions to a Win 7 machine, but
actually want to get a much lower power consumption machine to use for
logging applications. The RPi doesn't seem to have a good reliability
record, so that doesn't seem like the solution.

Thanks time-nuts, what a resource.

Cash Olsen
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Neil Schroeder]

USB-C will offer a number of things that I believe will be of benefit to
time nuts everywhere:

1) High current 5V up to 3A on every port
2) High voltage/current up to 20V/5A optionally on every port - sufficient
to power some rubidium oscillators natively, and a small boost to get the
rest of them.
3) a native UART channel - no more freaky USB interrupts/polling to get
your pulses
4) single omnipurpose connector ends with no insertion dependencies
5) Better, simpler device enumeration - while I haven't seen how it
addresses this personally, the stuff i have read is very promising.

Due to the switched controller nature of the interface, you should have
less nonstandard crap that may cause your computer to hang or other issues
related to drivers. The controller arbitrates a lot more setup details, and
the number of those on the market will be limited compared to usb
peripheral ICs.

This may be off topic from your off topic, but it seemed a good opportunity
to share this  info.

NS9
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 29 May 2015 23:50:16 +0200
Gerhard Hoffmann  wrote:

> Some months ago, one manufacturer distributed new drivers via the 
> Microsoft channel
> that recognized non-original chips and changed the inappropriate 
> manufacturer code
> in their flash to UNDEFINED. Thus, even going back to the old driver did 
> not make the
> false chip work again since the original driver felt no longer 
> responsible for the fake chip.

Yes, this was FTDI, and actually it was worse. 
It set the USB device ID to 0 for non-genuine FTDI chips, which is an
illegal value. Because of this, windows wouldn't enumerate them anymore
and thus they couldn't be used at all (until reprogrammed with some
special hardware).

Due to the huge backlash that driver version was not around for
very long (IIRC a couple of days only).

Attila Kinali

-- 
< _av500_> phd is easy
< _av500_> getting dsl is hard
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[David C. Partridge]

I originally replied offline, but given the level of discussion, it seems 
appropriate to put this here.

Take a look at USBOblivion which will vape all existing registry entries etc. 
for USB devices.  Next time you connect they will reload.  The only problem is 
that COM port number will most likely be changed. 

Regards,
David Partridge 
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Cash Olsen
Sent: 29 May 2015 20:18
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and 
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to 
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the 
hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved with 
Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version but 
Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.

I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a very 
large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some help. I 
don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just the serial 
adapters.

One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm only 
using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I make the 
assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the computer?

--
S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
ARRL Technical Specialist
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Tom Van Baak]

> I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a
> very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some
> help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just
> the serial adapters.

Cash,

True, it's somewhat off-topic but a lot of us collect data from instruments and 
so the issue of serial ports and USB comes up from time to time. I have run up 
to 40 serial ports on a Windows laptop using a combination of USB 7-port hubs 
and EdgePort 8-1 serial/USB adapters. It can work perfectly. Some personal 
comments:

- Use FTDI serial/USB adapters. They are very solid on Windows. Avoid SI Labs 
and Prolific adapters. My favorites these days come from Sparkfun and Adafruit 
(serial, 3.3/5 volt) and Parallax (serial, true RS232). Avoid the fake-FTDI 
adapters you see on eBay.

- Use Digi (Inside Out Networks) Edgeport serial/USB adapters if you want 4-1 
or 8-1 or even 16-1 serial ports. I've never had trouble with Edgeport 
software. These are higher priced per box but lower on a per-port basis. They 
are available and cheap on eBay, since DA9 (DB9) serial ports have fallen out 
of fashion.

- Both FTDI and Edgeport include excellent configuration utilities. For 
example, you can delete COM ports or change COM port numbers on the fly. Some 
programs won't let you use a large com port number. In a few seconds you can 
redefine a FTDI or Edgeport adapter to be COM2 or COM3, etc.

- By default the FTDI and Edgeport serial/USB adapters will retain their COM 
port number(s), which is handy most of the time. For example, I have an 
Edgeport/8 with #2 written on it. Every time I plug it in, I COM21 to COM28 
show up. Similar ones have labels #3 and #4, etc. So I always have serial ports 
if I need them.

- If you play with serial ports a lot it's nice to know what the port numbers 
are when you plug adapters in and out. Under http://leapsecond.com/tools/ see 
the coms.exe (coms.c) tool which displays and monitors for changes in the list 
of com ports. ^C to exit. 

- The web also has lots of advice on how to clean up unused COM ports on 
Windows. Personally I tend not to bother, because the config utilities allow 
you to change any port you want to use.

- The web has lots of good (and bad) advice to avoid the serial ball mouse 
problem should you ever run into that.

- If you want Windows serial logging and timestamp software contact me off-list.

Thanks,
/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[W2HX]

I would avoid vista like the plaque! Windows 7 is much more reliable. I am 
willing to bet your USB problems are because of vista.

 
73 Eugene W2HX
 


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Cash Olsen
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 3:18 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and 
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to 
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the 
hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved with 
Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version but 
Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.

I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a very 
large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some help. I 
don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just the serial 
adapters.

One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm only 
using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I make the 
assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the computer?

--
S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
ARRL Technical Specialist
___
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Vlad]

If its really number of USB devices, directly connected to the PC, then 
it could be issue with overload of 5V bus on USB hub. It has certain 
limitation.

As a workaround, you could try to use external USB hub with its own PSU.

--
WBW,

V.P.

On 2015-05-29 15:17, Cash Olsen wrote:
I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in 
and
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the 
USB to
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of 
the

hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial 
adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem 
resolved
with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier 
version
but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common 
problem.


I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had 
a
very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find 
some
help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, 
just

the serial adapters.

One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and 
I'm
only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and 
can I
make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting 
the

computer?


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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[paul swed]

Yes you can clean them up its online and its pretty simple not that I
recall what it was. I had the same issue and in device manager essentially
the hanger ons are hidden devices once you tell device manager to show
hidden you will see the issue.
I do not recall if you right click and release or what.
But it was online and a common issue.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 3:17 PM, Cash Olsen  wrote:

> I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
> unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
> serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
> hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.
>
> I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
> Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved
> with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version
> but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.
>
> I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a
> very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some
> help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just
> the serial adapters.
>
> One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm
> only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I
> make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the
> computer?
>
> --
> S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
> ARRL Technical Specialist
> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Brent Gordon]

Lately, I've been seeing blue screens that I think are caused by my 
serial-USB adapters.  Because I haven't updated by serial drivers since 
before the driver update fiasco a while back, my feeling is that this 
was caused by some other update.


Regarding the COM ports, here is a article on how to see all devices, 
past or present:



Although it is written for WinXP, it also works on Win7.  I assume it 
will work on Vista.  Once you see the old devices you can remove them, 
one at a time.


As for making the assignments static, that only works with some 
adapters.  I think it depends on if an adapter reports a serial number. 
 You can manually change the assignment for a port.

1.  Open Device Manager.
2.  Double-click on the port you want to change.
3.  Select the Port Settings tab.
4.  Click the Advanced... button.
5.  Change the port number.

Windows will complain that the port is already in use.  Ignore the 
warning; just unplug and replug the device into the same USB port.  It 
will now run with the new assignment.


Brent

On 5/29/2015 1:17 PM, Cash Olsen wrote:

I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved
with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version
but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.

I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a
very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some
help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just
the serial adapters.

One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm
only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I
make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the
computer?


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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I’m not sure I can be of much help. I typically run several dozen serial ports 
on various
machines without much trouble at all. They *all*:

1) Are under XP or Win-7 (no Vista)
2) Run FTDI drivers and nothing else
3) Get the drivers straight from FTDI

My case is so far off from your case that I don’t think it’s doing you any good 
…


Bob

> On May 29, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Cash Olsen  wrote:
> 
> I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
> unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
> serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
> hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.
> 
> I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
> Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved
> with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version
> but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.
> 
> I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a
> very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some
> help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just
> the serial adapters.
> 
> One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm
> only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I
> make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the
> computer?
> 
> -- 
> S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
> ARRL Technical Specialist
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 29 May 2015 13:17:40 -0600
Cash Olsen  wrote:

> I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
> unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
> serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
> hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.


I do not know about Windows Vista, but I have developed several USB
devices using Windows XP as main targed. All serial drivers use the
same code (usbser.sys) as driver, and just reference it in their
respective .ini file. From the time I developed those devices, i can
tell you with great confidence that usbser.sys is the worst piece
of shit i've seen in my entire life. There is no data validation,
no input sanitation or anything the like at all. Any inconsitency
in the data structures that describe the USB device (there are several
of those in even the most simple device) or just a wrongly set bit
will crash Windows XP hard. Hard as in, your system will freeze.
If you are lucky you will get a black screen. No blue screen with
any information will ever appear.

I don't know whether they rewrote the code completely or not. At least
the impression I have is that the Vista usbser.sys is slightly more
stable than the one in XP, but i have not tested it as throughly as I
did with XP. I would still not be surprised if the code is still pretty
bad and fucks up when it seems something uncommon but completely valid.

You might try upgrading usbser.sys to its newest version, but i am
not sure whether that would help or make things worse.

> One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm
> only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I
> make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the
> computer?

This is another very annoying thing. If a COM port was in use when its
underlying device was lost, then you cannot close the device completely
anymore. I have not found a cure for that, other than a reboot. So always
close the application that has uses a specific COM port before you
disconnect it.

If you plug in a device and you get a COM port that is very high up,
you can go into the device manager and re-assing its number (if the
ini file has that feature enabled). You have then to unplug it and
re-plug it for the change to take effect. Please be aware that you
have to plug it in at the exact same port of the exact same hub
(if you use one). Otherwise windows will think it's a different
device and assign it a different port number (or even ask you
to "reinstall" its driver).


If it is possible for you, I would suggest to use a different
operating system if you have to deal with lots of USB serial ports.

Attila Kinali

-- 
< _av500_> phd is easy
< _av500_> getting dsl is hard
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Re: [time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 29.05.2015 um 21:17 schrieb Cash Olsen:

I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved
with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version
but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.

Some months ago, one manufacturer distributed new drivers via the 
Microsoft channel
that recognized non-original chips and changed the inappropriate 
manufacturer code
in their flash to UNDEFINED. Thus, even going back to the old driver did 
not make the
false chip work again since the original driver felt no longer 
responsible for the fake chip.


It was a marketing desaster and they took it back somehow.
I think it was FTDI, but I'm not sure. I give Windows only control over 
a virtual machine

at most, so I don't remember the outcome.

regards, Gerhard

(now back to trying to control a SR620 from BeagleBoneBlack via USB, 
Prologix and GPIB)

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[time-nuts] USB problems and solutions - Some what Off Topic

[Cash Olsen]

I have been plagued with hard crashes of the computer when plugging in and
unplugging USB devices. I have generally determined that some of the USB to
serial devices are the worst offenders. I am also suspicious of some of the
hubs. I wander if even the operating system is partly to blame.

I'm using Windows Vista, and have several different USB to serial adapters.
Most are Silicon Labs and Prolific. I thought I had the problem resolved
with Prolific by over-riding the driver and installing an earlier version
but Windows may have updated the driver, that seems to be a common problem.

I'm coming to time-nuts because I remember that at least one member had a
very large number of adapters on one computer, so I'm hoping to find some
help. I don't generally seem to have trouble with other USB devices, just
the serial adapters.

One further issue, the COM ports are marked in use from 3 to 50+ and I'm
only using at any one time 3 or 4. Can I clean up the assignments and can I
make the assignments static after connect and reconnect or restarting the
computer?

-- 
S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
ARRL Technical Specialist
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