Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Moin! Thanks for all the answers and sorry for my late reply. I tried to at least skim trough the suggestions before. I would like to reply in one big mail instead of many small ones, in order not to clutter the mailinglist too much. On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 00:15:29 +0100 Adrian Godwin artgod...@gmail.com wrote: Although it's published by a vendor, this applications manual has a lot of useful information. http://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/fachbuecher/Trilogie.php Even though, I do not own a copy of The Trilogy, I know of it. It does a good job of covering the basics. But unfortunately, it does not contain much about the theoretical background, so does not help much in understanding how to work around the physical limits of cores. Other than that, I would recommend this book to every practicioning electrical engineer. On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:56:02 -0500 Bob kb8tq kb...@n1k.org wrote: You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Yes. I came to a similar conclusion. What irks me is, that this is the conclusion I came to with many topics in electrical engineering. At some point people decide that it is either too difficult to deal with or a solved problem and ignore it completely from then on. And if you are an engineer who tries to actually understand things instead of just repeating what some senior engineer told you long long ago, then you run up against walls. :-( On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 20:24:14 -0700 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: the best, and probably the only, book is the one by E.C. Snelling. http://www.amazon.com/Soft-ferrites-properties-applications-Snelling/dp/0592027902 1969 edition is https://archive.org/details/SNELLING__SOFT-FERRITES__1969 and it's not like the properties of magnetic fields have changed. Cool! Thanks a lot! I was looking for this, but couldn't find it. I somehow missed that archive.org had a copy. On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:25:57 -0400 Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials, sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com. Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold as EMI beads by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I don't know too much about easy availability in EU. Buying cores is not much of a problem. For one there are the distributors you have mentioned, for another we have companies like Würth here in Germany and Coilcraft in the US who are no afraid of selling single pieces (if they dont just regard it as samples). BTW: I really like to work with Würth. I know very few components companies that go so much out of their way to help a struggling engineer to get his project done. And they never ask about the volume of your project. You need help, you get help. Thanks for all the replies and suggesttion. And sorry if I don't answer all of them individually. Attila Kinali -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
BTW: I really like to work with Würth. I know very few components companies that go so much out of their way to help a struggling engineer to get his project done. And they never ask about the volume of your project. You need help, you get help. In the US if you live in a area that has a local Allied or similar mega-distrib's office, get to know one of the sales or technical reps in the office. Quite easy to do if you go to a few of the free seminars they always host. Most of the technical guys and gals are very open to helping the little guy. Be honest that your interest is for yourself or your a one man show. On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Moin! Thanks for all the answers and sorry for my late reply. I tried to at least skim trough the suggestions before. I would like to reply in one big mail instead of many small ones, in order not to clutter the mailinglist too much. On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 00:15:29 +0100 Adrian Godwin artgod...@gmail.com wrote: Although it's published by a vendor, this applications manual has a lot of useful information. http://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/fachbuecher/Trilogie.php Even though, I do not own a copy of The Trilogy, I know of it. It does a good job of covering the basics. But unfortunately, it does not contain much about the theoretical background, so does not help much in understanding how to work around the physical limits of cores. Other than that, I would recommend this book to every practicioning electrical engineer. On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:56:02 -0500 Bob kb8tq kb...@n1k.org wrote: You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Yes. I came to a similar conclusion. What irks me is, that this is the conclusion I came to with many topics in electrical engineering. At some point people decide that it is either too difficult to deal with or a solved problem and ignore it completely from then on. And if you are an engineer who tries to actually understand things instead of just repeating what some senior engineer told you long long ago, then you run up against walls. :-( On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 20:24:14 -0700 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: the best, and probably the only, book is the one by E.C. Snelling. http://www.amazon.com/Soft-ferrites-properties-applications-Snelling/dp/0592027902 1969 edition is https://archive.org/details/SNELLING__SOFT-FERRITES__1969 and it's not like the properties of magnetic fields have changed. Cool! Thanks a lot! I was looking for this, but couldn't find it. I somehow missed that archive.org had a copy. On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:25:57 -0400 Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials, sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com. Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold as EMI beads by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I don't know too much about easy availability in EU. Buying cores is not much of a problem. For one there are the distributors you have mentioned, for another we have companies like Würth here in Germany and Coilcraft in the US who are no afraid of selling single pieces (if they dont just regard it as samples). BTW: I really like to work with Würth. I know very few components companies that go so much out of their way to help a struggling engineer to get his project done. And they never ask about the volume of your project. You need help, you get help. Thanks for all the replies and suggesttion. And sorry if I don't answer all of them individually. Attila Kinali -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
On 6/23/15 4:02 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: Yes, for ferrites, many (all?) of the Amidon FT-xxx parts are perfectly standard Fair-Rite cores available from full-line distributors like Mouser, Newark, etc. Iron powder cores are not stocked by any of the standard distributors that I know of, but kitsandparts.com has good prices and quick delivery. Powdered metal.. typically from micrometals. Lodestone Pacific is one of their distributors. I've not bought small quantities of Micrometals parts from them, though. (lots of european distributors) Sometimes Amidon is the best or only place for a particular part. Good online source on ferrite transformers with measurements and distributor part numbers: Clifton Labs. e.g. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/ferrites,_inductors_and_transformers.htm Tim N3QE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Experimental Methods in RF Design has a half-dozen pages specifically on the choices of powdered iron and ferrite materials, and lots of working circuits and designs with measurements. Aka EMRFD. http://www.arrl.org/shop/Experimental-Methods-in-RF-Design Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials, sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com. Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold as EMI beads by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I don't know too much about easy availability in EU. Tim N3QE On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 09:02:38PM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate I found myself in the same position and gathered those books: -RF oriented Understanding, building, and using baluns and ununs, Jerry Sevick Transmission line transformers, Jerry Sevick The design of impedance matching networks, P.L.D. Abrie -General Ferrites for inductor and transformers, Snelling and Gilles Soft ferrites and accessories (databook, Ferroxcube) -Power (SMPS) Switchmode power supply handbook, Billings -Pulse digital (more for historical curiosity than anything practical) Digital magnetic logic, Bennion, Crane and Nitzan (also other books have parts about magnetic design; be aware for old books because they used non SI units) and some tens of MB of free PDF documents (I give you some titles) and texts... -Power (SMPS) PDF_GeneralTechnicalInformation.pdf Inductors - General technical information (EPCOS) R-217.pdf Report R-217 - Design of low-power pulse transformers using ferrite cores slup123.pdf Magnetics design - 1: Introduction and Basic Magnetics slup124.pdf Magnetics design - 2: Magnetic Core Characteristics slup125.pdf Magnetics design - 3: Windings slup126.pdf Magnetics design - 4: Power Transformer Design slup127.pdf Magnetics design - 5: Inductor and Flyback Transformer Design slup128b.pdf Magnetics design - R1: Reference Design Section - Magnetic Core Properties slup197.pdf Magnetics design - R2: Eddy Current Losses in Transformer Windings slup198.pdf Magnetics design - R3: Deriving the Equivalent Electrical Circuit slup199.pdf Magnetics design - R4: The Effects of Leakage Inductance on Switching Power Supply Performance slup200.pdf Magnetics design - R6: How to Design a Transformer with Fractional Turns slup201.pdf Magnetics design - R7: Winding Data I have almost nothing about laminated core transformers, but no one winds them by himself nowadays except perhaps some tube amplifier guys. Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Some other books which are good are: Applications of Magnetism, Watson Electromagnetic Device, Roters Magnetic Properties of Materials, Smit (ed.) Transformer Design Handbook, McLyman (I'm not sure if I have the author correct on this one, but it is a classic) Introduction to Ferromagnetism, Bitter (Bell Labs series) Magnetic Phenomena, Williams Ferromagnetism, Bozworth (another Bell Labs title) Introduction to Magnetic Materials, Cullity Magnetism: Selected Topics, Foner Permanent Magnets, McCaig The Physical Principles of Magnetism, Morrish The best books I have found on high-frequency transformers are Building and Using Baluns and Ununs by Jerry Sevick Ferromagnetic-Core Design Application Handbook, DeMaw PDF versions of some of these my be found on Scribd. I haven't checked for all of them. DaveD On 6/22/2015 9:59 PM, John Allen wrote: Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's that may help. Links are at http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm Most of the way to the bottom of the page. I hope this is helpful.. Passive components (transformers, capacitors...) Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350 pages A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers. Great info for those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components. Good theory and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors. Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy of John Atwood This book is a reference on the design of transformers and electronic apparatus. It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal (audio) transformers. It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to transformers. Enough theory to understand what's going on, as well as practical info on how to construct transformers. Download full text, 24MB PDF file Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals, John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages - Courtesy of an anonymous donor Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals! A rare source of information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications. Download full text, 48MB PDF file Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil transformer cores. A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel. Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file John, K1AE ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Also have a look at the amateur radio literature available from the ARRL. Lots of practical info. Don John Allen Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's that may help. Links are at http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm Most of the way to the bottom of the page. I hope this is helpful.. Passive components (transformers, capacitors...) Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350 pages A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers. Great info for those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components. Good theory and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors. Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy of John Atwood This book is a reference on the design of transformers and electronic apparatus. It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal (audio) transformers. It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to transformers. Enough theory to understand what's going on, as well as practical info on how to construct transformers. Download full text, 24MB PDF file Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals, John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages - Courtesy of an anonymous donor Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals! A rare source of information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications. Download full text, 48MB PDF file Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil transformer cores. A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel. Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file John, K1AE -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components Hi The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side” of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way. Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned in engineering. You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Bob On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Noli sinere nothos te opprimere Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLC 17850 Six Mile Road Huson, MT, 59846 mail: POBox 404 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404 VOX 406-626-4304 CEL 406-241-5093 Skype: buffler2 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Yes, for ferrites, many (all?) of the Amidon FT-xxx parts are perfectly standard Fair-Rite cores available from full-line distributors like Mouser, Newark, etc. Iron powder cores are not stocked by any of the standard distributors that I know of, but kitsandparts.com has good prices and quick delivery. Sometimes Amidon is the best or only place for a particular part. Good online source on ferrite transformers with measurements and distributor part numbers: Clifton Labs. e.g. http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/ferrites,_inductors_and_transformers.htm Tim N3QE On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 6/23/15 4:25 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: Experimental Methods in RF Design has a half-dozen pages specifically on the choices of powdered iron and ferrite materials, and lots of working circuits and designs with measurements. Aka EMRFD. http://www.arrl.org/shop/Experimental-Methods-in-RF-Design Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials, sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com. Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold as EMI beads by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I don't know too much about easy availability in EU. I don't know that I'd recommend Amidon as a source. Back when mail-order was king, Amidon did hams a real service by buying in bulk and selling in small quantities. The price was high, but there was no other source. Amidon has gone through a lot of business changes over the last 20-30 years (making magnetic tape heads and then not, overseas manufacturing, etc.). They're not the same company as Bill Amidon sitting in his garage in the San Fernando Valley putting cores in little paper or plastic envelopes with that folded up tissue paper instruction and data sheet with all the handy design equations and graphs. It used to be tough to get databooks from large manufacturers as a hobbyist. The sales reps would hand them out after qualifying you as a potential lead. Bill did everyone a great service in essentially redrawing and republishing all the needed data in a handy form. These days, most of the parts, (e.g. made by Fair-rite,Ferroxcube, Philips), etc are available from Mouser, DigiKey and other distributors readily. Furthermore, the design information is readily available on the web (e.g. from Fair-rite) or in various mailing lists. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
This brings up a wide range of possible topics. You first need to understand the physics, which is complex because magnetic fields interact with matter in more interesting manners than electric fields, due to spin and angular momentum. * Magnetic moment (spin and orbital angular momentum): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_moment * Magnetic field B: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfor.html * Magnetic field strength H: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magfield.html * Magnetic hysteresis: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/hyst.html * Ferromagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism * Ferrimagnetism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrimagnetism * Curie temperature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie_temperature * Self inductance: http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/inductance.html * Mutual inductance and transformers: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/indmut.html * Eddy current: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current * Skin effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect * Faraday effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_effect Some of these topics (such as skin effect) seem esoteric, but they are crucial to understanding many common devices, such as why many large AC power lines use multiple wires in parallel rather than one large wire. Litz wire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire Because of mutual inductance, two circuits can be coupled to produce a wide range of useful devices (transformers, baluns, etc.). Certain materials (such as YIG spheres[1]) can be used to produce magnetically tuned filters which are commonly used in microwave devices. There are many practical books on the use of certain magnetic devices, such as ferrite cores. You can also find resources on design of switching power supplies which discuss the magnetic materials involved. Ferromagnetic Core Design Application Handbook http://www.amidoncorp.com/ferromagnetic-core-design-application-handbook/ Magnetics design for switching power supplies: http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slup123/slup123.pdf The practical applications for science are much more interesting than the average person realizes. Of course, magnetic behavior combine with electric behavior resulting in electromagnetism, leading to transmission line theory and electromagnetic radiation. But that's more than you asked for. :) -- Bill Byrom N5BB On Mon, Jun 22, 2015, at 06:56 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side” of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way. Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned in engineering. You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Bob On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. _ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Links: 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YIG_sphere ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's that may help. Links are at http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm Most of the way to the bottom of the page. I hope this is helpful.. Passive components (transformers, capacitors...) Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350 pages A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers. Great info for those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components. Good theory and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors. Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy of John Atwood This book is a reference on the design of transformers and electronic apparatus. It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal (audio) transformers. It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to transformers. Enough theory to understand what's going on, as well as practical info on how to construct transformers. Download full text, 24MB PDF file Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals, John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages - Courtesy of an anonymous donor Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals! A rare source of information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications. Download full text, 48MB PDF file Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil transformer cores. A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel. Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file John, K1AE -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components Hi The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side” of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way. Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned in engineering. You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Bob On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
On 6/22/15 12:02 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. the best, and probably the only, book is the one by E.C. Snelling. http://www.amazon.com/Soft-ferrites-properties-applications-Snelling/dp/0592027902 1969 edition is https://archive.org/details/SNELLING__SOFT-FERRITES__1969 and it's not like the properties of magnetic fields have changed. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
You might also find Doug DeMaw's book Ferromagnetic Core Design Application Handbook to be of interest. 73 Lee K9WRU - Original Message - On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
On 6/23/15 4:25 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: Experimental Methods in RF Design has a half-dozen pages specifically on the choices of powdered iron and ferrite materials, and lots of working circuits and designs with measurements. Aka EMRFD. http://www.arrl.org/shop/Experimental-Methods-in-RF-Design Here in the USA, iron powder and ferrite cores of many different materials, sizes, and a few shapes are available from Amidon and kitsandparts.com. Many useful ferrite cores for multi-turn transformers and chokes, are sold as EMI beads by Mouser and Newark and other mainline distributors. I don't know too much about easy availability in EU. I don't know that I'd recommend Amidon as a source. Back when mail-order was king, Amidon did hams a real service by buying in bulk and selling in small quantities. The price was high, but there was no other source. Amidon has gone through a lot of business changes over the last 20-30 years (making magnetic tape heads and then not, overseas manufacturing, etc.). They're not the same company as Bill Amidon sitting in his garage in the San Fernando Valley putting cores in little paper or plastic envelopes with that folded up tissue paper instruction and data sheet with all the handy design equations and graphs. It used to be tough to get databooks from large manufacturers as a hobbyist. The sales reps would hand them out after qualifying you as a potential lead. Bill did everyone a great service in essentially redrawing and republishing all the needed data in a handy form. These days, most of the parts, (e.g. made by Fair-rite,Ferroxcube, Philips), etc are available from Mouser, DigiKey and other distributors readily. Furthermore, the design information is readily available on the web (e.g. from Fair-rite) or in various mailing lists. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Hi The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side” of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this way. Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then abandoned in engineering. You have two choices: 1) Read the physics stuff 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s). Sorry about that …. Bob On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
The techniques are still alive well in power electronics. Try looking at an introductory textbook on the subject. Engineers with decades of experience in this will design inductors, then trim them by hand to achieve the best results. One old guy would crack toroids in half, and then shim them with multiple cigarette papers to make a gapped core. Tom Harris celephi...@gmail.com On 23 June 2015 at 05:02, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Try this to just get started: www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/8405015.pdf On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components
Although it's published by a vendor, this applications manual has a lot of useful information. http://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/fachbuecher/Trilogie.php I was sufficiently impressed when I saw it at a trade show that I bought a copy, and they've reduce the price since then. On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Hi, I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids, transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student. So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything. Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance Attila Kinali -- I must not become metastable. Metastability is the mind-killer. Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my metastability. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
